HOMEBREW Digest #2808 Wed 26 August 1998

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
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  Its the new dance craze... (Charley Burns)
  pitching rate ("Dr. Pivo")
  oxygenation ("charles beaver")
  oxygenation ("charles beaver")
  Pracitical Matters (Jim Liddil)
  wort chiller (Michael Lausin)
  Alt hopping schedule ("Chuck Mryglot")
  Hops ("Swintosky, Michael D.")
  Oven bottle sterilization ("Steve Blanchard")
  Broken Necks/Name that off flavor... ("Frederick J. Wills")
  Re: HSA ad infinitum (Jeff Renner)
  HSA, ad nauseum (John Wilkinson)
  Kick starting Big 10 ("Spies, James")
  Re: AHA-Nationals Judging question ("Brian Rezac")
  CAP-style adjunct mash for pumpkin ale? (zemo)
  Nottingham/Imperial/Oxygenation ("Philip J Wilcox")
  drifine (Regan Pallandi)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 15:03 PDT From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns) Subject: Its the new dance craze... Hotfoot Brewing (Northern California Swing) Well, it was an awfully long brew day, that's about my only excuse. I had decided to make a Vienna instead of another Oktoberfest (remember the worm beer). I built up a grain bill of 90% vienna, 5% crystal and 5% wheat. Did a 50-50 split mash with first half resting at 145F for 15 minutes and then up to 156F for 45 minutes and then a 20 minute boil (decoction and what an aroma!!!). Then the rest of the mash came in at 145F with an immediate boost to 152F and rest for an hour. I'm hoping for an intensely malty flavor with a dry finish, we'll see in a few weeks. Anyhow after nearly 5 hours of mashing, lautering and boiling, I was down to the last 15 minutes when I toss in my immersion chiller for sanitation. It was in there for about 10 minutes and of course the water in the tubing from the last time I used it boiled and started spitting out of the connectors (didn't have the hose on it yet). Now, I've seen this behavior before but I have never been spit on by my chiller before. This time I was in the wrong place at the wrong split second an sppppttttoooiii. I now have a nice second degree burn on my left ankle about 3 inches long and an inch wide. I immediately ran the cold water over it and pulled the sock and shoe off. Along with several layers of well cooked skin. Moral of the story - aim the outlets of your immersion chiller away from traffic lanes or hook the hoses on it before it goes into the boil or drain it real good after you use it. Not to worry, I'm not looking for any sympathy (well, a little bit is ok, send me some of your best homebrews to make me feel better). The doc gave me some antibiotic ointment and I got a tetanus booster last year. Just have to stay out of the pool for a couple of weeks. Charley (copyrighting a new style of swing) in N.Cal Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:57:56 +0100 From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se> Subject: pitching rate Further response to a letter I revieved from George DePiro: > Underpitching and other abuse of yeast. This causes such a broad array of > problems that it is truly staggering. I have said much about this, > and will say more, > mark my words... I marked his words (with one of these (>) things). I might have another suggestion (Since pitching rate is becoming quite a popular drum). 1:Next time you brew, split your wort into three equal portions. 2: Create a starter that is about twice of what you consider an appropriate size for the original (unsplit) volume.It would be convenient if this starter was easily divisable by 7 (like 700ml or 1400ml). 3:Pour 1/7th into one, 2/7ths into the next, and 4/7ths into the third. Now you've got one ferment with a presumed 1/2 "good" pitching rate, one that should be right, and one that is double pitched. 4:Have some knowledgable tasters taste these "blind" when completed (triangle test is quite nice for this, two beers at time, (hint) I'd start with min. and max.). Now IF and WHEN you find that there IS a perceivable difference, and particularly IF there is some consensus about what defines this difference, it would be a very good place to THEN begin to theorise about what causes these differences (drawing upon the extant reasearch in the brewing industry). I'm assuming that the beer you brew yourself does not taste much like "Coors", and it would be very interesting to know what makes positive and negative taste effects in more complex beers (anything that resembled a pronounced flavour in a can of Coors, would stand out like canine testicles, and throw it immediately out of its precarious balance.... that doesn't imply that that same flavour might not be "simply wonderfull" in a more complex setting). This proposed test has one obvious confounder, and that is the increase in concentration of fermentation products from the "starter" introduced with increased pitching rates, but since that is an inherent confounder in proposed increased pitching rates as well, I'd "let it slide" for the moment. Without having tested the relevance of this in a homebrew setting first, despite the best of intentions, I am afraid you will only be contributing to the exponential growth, of a mountain of information that is being regurgitated for homebrewers from the brewing industry, without first seeing if it is germaine (or indeed, perhaps even counter-productive). Dr. Pivo PS I promise I'll stop posting and teasing here. I'm about to get onto that plane to Ireland, and I always get a bit wound-up before heading on one of these tasting sprees, and positively bubble over (a gusher?) with the shear joy of all the wonderful, varied products of brewing that have been my pleasure to embibe... no matter how badly they "break the rules" during their production). Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:38:20 -0500 From: "charles beaver" <cbeav at netnitco.net> Subject: oxygenation Can anyone give me guidelines for using a diffuser stone and an O2 tank for aeration? Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:43:11 -0500 From: "charles beaver" <cbeav at netnitco.net> Subject: oxygenation Can anyone give me guidelines for the length of time needed to aerate a 5 gal batch using a diffuser stone and and O2 tank? Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:24:04 -0700 From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu> Subject: Pracitical Matters Steve Alexander mentioned various details which are not worth me dealing with since I'm buried in books and articles now. So I'll just concede defeat for now. :-) >Jim says that he prefers to *not* have yeast growth - but one of his reasons >(fast fermentation) defies his own quote about 33X slower attenuation. The point I was failing to make is that one wants to pitch the right amount of yeast with the right amount of oxygen. Thus one gets the right amount of growth to consume the sugar and ferment quickly without excess growth. One needs to achieve a balance. I did not say I had every achieved this goal. This whole discussion is beginning to remind me of the folks from GSE systems who were in my class at Siebels. "Let's just put a PLC on everything and the brewery has an on/off switch." Get a bunch of C.E.s to derive a bunch of equations and we'll make "beer". The Ramirez articles in JIB and B and B read this way. "maximum alcohol in minimum time", "industrial brewing". And they used 16 P wort. My point is that this is research that is geared, as is most beer research. towards making light lager in 900 barrel batches 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Granted some of their stuff is valid but Ramirez, based on his CV is not a brewing scientist. he is into modeling and process control. As far as oxygen and beer Kirsop has done a bunch of stuff and found a variation in yeast O2 requirements from 4 to 40 mg/L. But he has also reported that by giving the 40 mg/L requiring yeast smaller amounts over time, that one can get equal performance and growth to that of the 4 mg/L strain given a single shot. so single blast of oxygen may or may not be the best thing depending on the yeast strain. From his perspective most all fermentation problems arise from inadequate oxygen levels and thus problems with the yeast levels of UFAs and sterols and other oxygen requiring processes. So make all malt starters. Don't use an extract like Alexander that had low FAN. Step things up until you have 2 or more liters. cover the flask with foil or a sterile cotton plug not an air lock. If you don't have a stirrer, then swirl the flask a few times a day. In the morning. when you get home and when you go to bed. This helps promote air exchange and healthy yeast. let the starter ferment out and let the yeast flocculate. Don't add the supernatant to your beer. It would be great to adapt our yeast and re pitch like the big guys. But we don't brew 24/7. If I want I can make a starter with various supplements and get 1e9 cells/ml, but this is expensive when air is essentially free. Just some simple advice. But if you want to use tween 80, ergesterol, yeast extract and YNB then be my guest. :-) Jim Liddil Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:23:41 -0600 From: Michael Lausin <soscc at cmn.net> Subject: wort chiller Geetings fellow homebrewers! A while back there was a discussion about immersion chillers and pre-chillers. I have a web page that shows the chiller set up that I use. I recirculate the cooling water using a pump and a pre-chiller coil inside a washtub. This technique could be helpful to my fellow brewers who live where water is either expensive, in limited supply, or who are like me and don't like to waste the water. The site is at http://www.cmn.net/~rosqs/wort.html Cheers! - -------------------------------------------------------- Michael Lausin Solutions Oriented Systems Computer Consulting soscc at cmn dot net Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:15:01 -0400 From: "Chuck Mryglot" <cmryglot at Progress.com> Subject: Alt hopping schedule In the latest issue of Zymurgy there is an article on Alt. I was interested in the hopping schedule. Bittering hops as usual, flavoring hops added when heat turned off, and then aroma hops added after wort has cooled to 180 degrees F. This is a new twist to me. Has anyone else used this schedule? Is this typical/unique for Alt? Chuckm Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:08:28 -0400 From: "Swintosky, Michael D." <Swintosk at timken.com> Subject: Hops I am looking for information on how one determines if hops are ready for harvest. Also, what is the best way to dry/prepare hops for use or storage? I only have two vines, but I'd be interested in using them if I could. tia Mike Swintosky Dellroy, Ohio Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:16:23 PDT From: "Steve Blanchard" <steve_blanchard at hotmail.com> Subject: Oven bottle sterilization Rod Wellman commented on the use of his oven for bottle sterilization in HB #2803: "I preheat the oven to 200 degrees before placing them inside. Then I leave them in NO longer than 15 minutes at 200 degrees. I believe 180 degrees is the point at which bacteria dies. 200 is plenty safe. I have heard that higher temperatures and longer times in the oven my weaken the structure of the glass." His times would be inadequate if sterilization is the goal. Hospital based standards for sterilization using dry-heat devices (like an oven) dictate sterilization times of 60-120 minutes at 320-375 degrees Fahrenheit. Bacterial killing using dry heat requires higher temps and longer times than the use of traditional steam sterilization which use steam under pressure. As far as his comment on weakening the glass structure, I would suspect that this would occur at much higher temps (over 400 degrees)and only after many cycles. Steve ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:30:02 -0400 From: "Frederick J. Wills" <Frederick_Wills at compuserve.com> Subject: Broken Necks/Name that off flavor... Oh wise and great collective, You will recall that quite a while ago I asked whether any HBD'ers had ever broken the neck off of their carboy when carrying via a carboy handle. I am pleased to report that all of the replies were either negative on 'boy breakage or that the carboy had slipped out of the handle and that the neck had not snapped off or been the cause of the reported mishap. *** All-New Conventional Wisdom to follow**** I believe that (with less than a 5% probability of error) we can say that carboy necks do not break by carrying them with a carboy handle. Case closed. - ------------------ On a completely different topic, I have a story that may be worthy of consideration in light of the recent HSA discussions. In years gone by, when I was a partial boiling extract brewer, I made a few batches of homebrew that came out less than stellar. While they were drinkable, there was a subdued stale background flavor that I did not find in commercial beers and did not particularly care for. After some deliberation, I modified my previous process (which I had read about in a certain "Complete" hombrewing book) by eliminating the pouring of boiling hot concentrated wort through a hop-strainer into icy cold make-up water in the fermenter. Instead, I began to pre-chill my concentrated boiled wort via an ice bath in the sink before doing "the big dump" into the fermenter. The mysterious off flavor problem was gone, never to return again. I theorized that the concentrated wort was being aerated during my mishandling at high temperatures and have associated this flavor with HSA. Am I correct in this assumption or was there another mechanism at work? Is it possible that this is the dreaded "THT" (That Homebrew Taste)? Certainly it is possible that the elimination of the flavor and change in process are completely unrelated, but since I had several batches that were positives and several more post modification that were negative (before switching gears completely and going all-grain) there is a reasonably good probability that these were cause and effect. Forgive me if I don't calculate a p-value for this data. So on to the theoretical question, what damage could be afflicted on boiling hot wort by dumping it through a strainer into ice cold (well aerated) water? TIA, Fred Wills Londonderry, NH Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:38:28 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: HSA ad infinitum "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se> wrote of HSA being >an "on/off" phenomenon. I posted my experience with HSA on HBD several (3?) years ago, I think. I've had cardboard taste two times, both in 100% Munich malt dunkles that were mashed in a kettle in the oven (and decocted, perhaps, I don't have my notes handy), then transferred to a "zapap" lauter tun. (I now use a RIMS). They were fermented cold (9-10 C) and lagered at 0 C for 6-8 weeks. I kegged the cold lagered beer and carbonated by shaking over a period of perhaps an hour. Both beers tasted great during the first few weeks on tap at 7-8 C, then suddenly went to wet cardboard. I mean, overnight! Time was the only factor here as there was no light, agitation or temperature change once the beer was kegged and carbonated, but I know that transferring the mash to the lauter tun (and back and forth for decocting if I did decoct), in spite of my care, probably exposed it to oxidation. Shaking for carbonation may have further stressed it. I recall from reading that the melanoidins from dark malts can be protective against oxidation if the wort is delivered to the fermenter in a reduced state, but if it is oxidized, then the melanoidins can actually be a storehouse for future oxidizing problems. (I know it has to do with electron donors and receptors, but I struggled with redox 30+ years in inorganic and I'm too lazy to go look it up now, so please excuse my fuzziness). In my experience, this certainly was an "on/off pnenomenon." Or, perhaps, "off/on. It never went back the other way, but maybe if I had kept the beers, they would have reverted. As it was, they were undrinkable. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 98 10:27:23 CDT From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson) Subject: HSA, ad nauseum I was happy to read of Dr. Pivo's experiment with HSA. My last batch of beer I forgot to turn on the water to my CF chiller and collected, with lots of splashing, five gallons of 170F wort. When I noticed what I was doing I turned off the drain, siphoned the hot wort back into the kettle, turned on the water to the CF chiller, and started collecting cooled wort. Perhaps my beer will be O.K. I guess I can cancel my trip to Houston to climb to the top of the San Jacinto Monument and do a swan dive off of it. Life can continue, such as it is. John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:41:39 -0400 From: "Spies, James" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us> Subject: Kick starting Big 10 All - I have a question regarding an apparent stuck fement with a barleywine made from Jethro's Big 10/20 recipie. Initially, I pitched ~4.5 gallons of BW wort (OG 1.116) onto a sizable Edme ale yeast cake from a previous batch of 1.041 American amber ale. It fermented furiously for about a week (interim SG 1.058), and finally trickled to a halt about a month later at 1.050, where it stopped dead. I racked off of the yeast into a sanitized carboy, and pitched 3 packets of rehydrated champagne yeast. Nothing has happened at all. Obviously I don't want to oxygenate the partially finished beer, but there is absolutely no action from the airlock, and the surface of the beer is totally clear of foam. The SG remains at 1.050. I took a second hydrometer reading to make sure I didn't screw it up, and it was identical (no air bubbles to float it up). What gives? My temperature is about 74 in the basement. Is this too hot for the yeast to work? I don't have refrigeration capacity, so I have to do the best I can with water and t-shirts. The beer shows no signs of infection (thank god), so I'm just letting it sit for now and scratching my head. Any suggestions??? BTW, the taste seems to be right on for a BW. Sweet, but not cloying, and very hoppy. Could I have a screwy hydrometer? (No problems in the past) Could this be a possible case for the use of Clin*test? Heaven forbid, another mini thread to restart the Al v. Dave Cage Match of Death . . . ;-) As always, TIA Jay Spies Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:35:12 -0600 From: "Brian Rezac" <brian at aob.org> Subject: Re: AHA-Nationals Judging question Christopher Peterson wrote: > A friend of mine and I have a question regarding beer judging (scoring) at > the AHA nationals. We both entered a beer in the same category. Both made > it into the finals. In both evaluations, it was unclear how the final score > given to the beer was obtained. > Both at the first round and second rounds, the two scores I received were > averaged to give a final score (for example but not actual scores; 35 + 37 > = 36 final average score). On my friends sheet, he received two scores, yet > the final evaluation score was not the average of the first two (for example > 32 and 31 final score 38). How do they come up with these numbers? Do the > judges reevaluate beers after trying the whole category? I know the finals > used a two tier system to judge the beers. Do the judges re-score beers > that score the highest? Just wondering. Any info would be appreciated. As > always, private emails welcome. Chris, You're not alone. The AHA gets many inquiries about the judging and scoring system. And usually the answer lies in just understanding the process. Now, I'm much better at explaining this verbally than in written form, but here goes. First of all, let me point out that the score on the cover sheet is the "Final Assigned Score". The judges do not have to average the other scores to come up with this score. Rather it is their final decision, after individual evaluation and then group discussion, on what score they are assigning that entry. Here is a brief description of the organization of a typical competition, to help you understand a little better. All the beers that are entered in a particular beer style category are divided into flights. In the 2nd Round of the Nationals, there are usually 2 or 3 flights but in the 1st Round, I've seen as many as 5 flights in the same category. Each flight is judged by a different set of judges who score the entries and pass on up to 3 beers for the "Best of Category" judging (sometimes called "Mini BOS"). In the "Best of Category" judging, the judges disregard the previous scores and, basically, just choose the top three entries. (Sometimes less than three.) Often these judges will go back to the cover sheets and re-assign a new score so that the winning entries have higher scores than the other entries. Sometimes, they'll also put the scores in order so the first place beer has the higher score, second place the next highest, etc.. Now, admittedly, after evaluating a few beers, the judges' math skills can suffer. Usually, the steward is double-checking the math. But sometimes, mistakes do happen. Please contact me, if you would like to discuss the specific details of your entries. Good Luck with your brewing. I hope that you found the judges comments useful for your future brewing efforts. Brian Rezac Membership Development Director American Homebrewers Association 736 Pearl Street, Boulder, CO 80302 303 447-0816, ext. 121 brian at aob.org http://beertown.org Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:28:12 -0500 From: zemo <zemo at ameritech.net> Subject: CAP-style adjunct mash for pumpkin ale? I'm growing baking-type pumpkins out back of the brewery (read: S.O.'s house) and I'd like some input on tried and true methods of making pumpkin ale. Many recipes call for baking the deseeded, halved 'kins sprinkled with pie spice for an hour at 350F, and then adding to the mash. More pie spice is then added near the end (15 mins?) of the boil. Some posts to the B.B.B. say why use 'kins at all, you only need the pie spice. This may be true, but I love pumpkin pie and I want to brew an ale that is pumpkin-y. What if I did a sort of adjunct mash ala CAP corn/6-row, ie, bake the kin's as above and then mash-in with some good ole 6-row? Hold at 152-4F for an hour and then add that to the pale/ crystal mash in the cooler. Am I wasting my time? Mr. Renner? BTW - has anyone seen pumpkins yet? My vines are spreading around the yard, lots of flowers, but no fruit. TIA Steve Holat - Pumpkinhead Underhaus Brewery Batavia, IL Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:56:10 -0400 From: "Philip J Wilcox"<pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com> Subject: Nottingham/Imperial/Oxygenation From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 08/25/98 04:56 PM Tidmarsh, Very unusual behavior from this yeast. Do you still have the packets? They should have a serial number on them that you can track to a packing date through Llamand. My guess is that the packets were old and abused. On Sunday I brewed a "Christmas Closet Cleaned-Out Imperial Stout" it had a little of everything: 12 gallons starting, 11 kinds of malt, 10 gals at knock out, 9-ty IBUs, 8 dinner while chilling, 7 grams of gypsum , 6 different extracts, 5 specialty grains, 4 kinds of hops in 3 additions 2 carboys filled and 1 oz of Dry Nottingham (in each carboy) Yes that's 1 ounce, maybe a little more. In a previous brew session I had arranged to get yeast from a brewpub, When I got there they had just finished filtering and had dumped all their yeast. Oops. So they gave me a packet of their yeast. A packet. A 500 mg packet. I have lots of Nottingham now. So I too have been following the yeast cell count thing closely also. (Nice work Mort) Since this was a really big brew I went with 1 oz plus a shake. Previous to pitching my O2 ran out on the first carboy. So I decided to turn that aspect into an experiment by not further aerating the other. I pitched at 11pm and by 7 am. both had 1 inch of krausening. By 7 am the next day one of them had climbed out the top of the 6.5 gal carboy. The other only made it up to the neck on one side of the carboy but not the other!?! This is more or less what I had expected with a beer with a OG of 1.082. However, being the tired schmuck that I was, I went to be without marking witch one got oxygenated. That said, After careful thinking I am about 85% certain that the one that climbed out was the UNoxygenated one! Any conspiracy theorists want to put a spin on why? Now, back to the cause of this experiment. O2 running out. I was annoyed at big brew that My rinky dink orange hardware store replacement tank ran out before everyone got the recommended 2 20 sec blasts of O2. I was further annoyed by having to replace the $9 replacement bottle so soon. So on this last bottle I was very careful. I only put the regulator on when I was using it. I marked how many carboys I oxygenated on the tank. Well I only got 4!!!!! What is the deal here? My first tank, the original "Oxygenator"tm got probably 12 or more! At big brew alone there were 5 (died on the last one) Plus previous uses. How are other people using there oxygen? Am I Over-oxygenating? My procedure is to boil that darn SS sintered stone for 10 min, soak the hose in idophor from the carboy, assemble hands free. Drop the stone to the bottom and turn up the regulator all the way for 20 sec. IF possible. Some of the time It would be foaming out by then so I'd cut it off early. I'd then cover the neck with foil and clean up for a few minutes before repeating the procedure. Anyone see any problems? Phil Wilcox Poison Frog Home Brewer Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:16:44 +1000 From: Regan Pallandi <esb at wr.com.au> Subject: drifine I recently was given a bag of something called "Drifine" dry instant finings manufactured by James Vickers of the UK. There is no other information on the pack as to what it is, or how much to use. Does anyone know what this stuff is? cheers, Regan in Sydney Return to table of contents
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