---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Lagering in caves and purging with CO2 (Eddie Kent)
  All Stainless Thermos ("Gregg Soh")
  Liquid held in wet grains (David Sherfey)
  mead priming ("Mike Butterfield")
  Beer in Plastic Cups (Fred Johnson)
  Moisture content of hops / Polyclar / large Wyeast packs ("George De Piro")
  RE: cleaning keg lines (Gary H Nazelrod)
  Adjunct question (John Baxter Biggins)
  Moisture Contents of Hops ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Grain storage, drying hops, parti-gyle/batch sparging (Christophe Frey)
  Re: Triple decoction (Jeff Renner)
  Chem/ChemE (Jeff Renner)
  Re: 19th Century beers (Jeff Renner)
  re: in-line thermometer (John_E_Schnupp)
  Nitrogen Dispensing (oberlbk)
  Single decoction ("Kaczorowski, Scott")
  Response to hbd# 2820 from 9/9/98 ("Fred Scheer-Malt Montana")
  Re: Rice brews (Gail Elber)
  iodophor/freezing fruit/FAN at bottling/bottle conditioning/oxygen (Al Korzonas)
  restrictors/astringency/microwaves/O'fest/"plastic" beer/yeast Q's (Al Korzonas)
  decoction/protein rest (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:48:40 -0500
From: Eddie Kent <ebk1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Lagering in caves and purging with CO2

Jim Booth talks about lagers:
<Also, the industrial period meant that mechanical refrigeration and
<ice-making was possible and the Great Lakes ice that Made Milwaukee
<famous as a producer of lager beer, could be had in St. Louis,
<Louisville, Cincinatti, et al.

I always thought the limestone caves that the banks of the Mississippi
River provided were the reason Adolphus Busch located in St Louis to
produce the most famous (& lousiest) contract brewed beers- Budweiser.
>From Pete's book(of Pete's Wicked Ale) I understand that this was first
brewed for a friend of Busch's who discovered it on a trip to Europe and
later Anheiser Busch acquired it & the rights to it when his friend's
company went bankrupt.  Also, I can't think of the name of the brewery
in Cincinnatti started by German immigrants that lagered in the
limestone caves that the bluffs along the river provided- I think this
brewery now produces beer amost exclusively for Sam Adams (but with
modern refrigeration)-somebody help me out if they know the whole story.

In response to Eric Fouch's Homebrewing tip#74,  one of the best
investments I've made for purging containers with CO2 is just a simple
air gun used in most automotive shops ($12 at an auto supply store). It
comes with an assortment of fittings including a needle attachment.
Just use a manifold to branch another line off of your CO2 tank and you
can purge anything with 3-4 lbs of pressure (I use it for a layer of CO2
after I've transfered beer to a secondary).  Erich talks about using a
fire extinguisher for CO2 purging containers- I was in an aviation unit
in the army reserves and we always used fire extinguishers for quick
chilling beer in the field (they were an expendable item-your tax
dollars at work!)

Now that the temperature has dipped below the 90's and 100's in Houston
(TX) its time to brew again.  I'm fermenting an ale right now and turned
down the AC to 74 while I'm out of town (no lagering fridge).  I'm out
of town for a week and my wife understands that she needs to freeze to
prevent off flavors in my beer. When I call home, wife gives me daily
fermentation status reports and I've trained her when to take of the
blow-off tube and replace it with an air lock when the time is right-
and she didn't even like beer until I started brewing.  Just rambling
since traffic seemed light on the digest!
- --
Eddie Kent
Houston, TX
ebk1 at earthlink.net

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look
like a nail."
 -Maslow




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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 01:41:14 PDT
From: "Gregg Soh" <greggos at hotmail.com>
Subject: All Stainless Thermos

Dave Hinrichs <dhinrichs at quannon.com> asks about advice on installing a 
drain in his new all stainless thermal container.
  
Now, I wouldn't pretend to be an expert here but assuming this baby is 
similar to the stainless Thermos's I've seen that are manufactured with 
evacuated walls (ie. vacuum), I wouldn't go around poking holes into it, 
or you might just end up with a plain old stainless kettle.  I think it 
would be an accurate guess that the container in question is of the 
evacuated wall type, seeing as how it's called the "AerVoid"=AirVoid and 
the manufacturer is called "Vacuum Can Co.". Just my 2 cents.

Gregg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 05:29:48 -0400
From: David Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: Liquid held in wet grains

Randy discusses his upcoming attempt at the no-sparge method.

I've done this twice recently, and here are some potentially useful bits
of info that I measured from my attempts;

liquid held in grains = 0.21 gallons per pound

no-sparge yield w/o making a second "small beer" = 22.5 points/lb using
Maris Otter as the base malt

My method was to mash as usual, and then add water just prior to lauter
in a quantity to avoid sparging.   I tossed the wet grain without trying
to make a small beer.  Now that I have adjusted my brewing calculations
to hit the results predictibly I can think about what to do with another
beer made with that last 9 points or so of stuff left in the wet grain.

I took it on faith that I would realize better malt character, but will
not know what I got until the beer is done sometime next month.

Cheers!
David Sherfey
Warwick, NY



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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:39:53 +0200
From: "Mike Butterfield" <XPBRMB at sugar.org.za>
Subject: mead priming

Hi everyone,
I have a question about priming mead.  I had thought that the alcohol 
content (12-15%) would inactivate the yeasts present, but I see that most 
recipes for mead are primed at bottling.  Will there still be active 
yeasts around to carbonate within the bottle?  Is mead normally fizzy like 
champagne or flat like wine.  I have looked at the mead section of HBD, 
but have not found an answer.  My first melomel is fermenting nicely and 
will be ready for bottling in a week or two.

PS Thanks to those who responded to my yeast question.

Thanks

Mike Butterfield
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa


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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 07:15:58 -0400
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Beer in Plastic Cups

Jeffrey Kenton laments that a brewpub served him beer in a plastic cup:

I, too, found a popular brewery/brewpub in Baltimore near Camden Yards serving
their beers in milky plastic cups.  I merely asked for a glass, and the
bartender was happy to provide it. 

Probably most beer drinkers--including those patronizing a craft beer
establishment--aren't as discriminating as we beer brewers.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina



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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998  8:35 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Moisture content of hops / Polyclar / large Wyeast packs

     Hi all,
     
     There has been a general discussion about the use of fresh, undried 
     hops.  There has been guessing about how much moisture is in the hops. 
     You need to know the moisture content so that you use the appropriate 
     amount of hops when following a recipe that calls for dry hops.
     
     There is no guess work needed.  Accurately weigh out ~50g of fresh 
     hops.  Dry them.  Weigh them again.  The difference in weight is the 
     moisture content.  You can apply that factor to the rest of the 
     harvest.
     
     It is not necessary to dry hops to constant weight because the 
     commercially dried hops that we usually use are not at 0% moisture.  
     Just dry them until they appear to be as dry as commercial hops 
     usually are.
     
     I seem to recall that there are some flavor and aroma changes that 
     occur when drying the hops.  Oxidation of certain oils comes to mind.  
     Some brewers prefer that their hops be slightly aged before use.  
     Green hops will have a different character from dried.  Which you 
     prefer is a matter of personal taste.
     -------------------------------
     James attempted to fine his beer using Polyclar (PVPP), with poor 
     results.  Why didn't it work?
     
     One reason is that the beer was warm when fined.  Chill haze is most 
     effectively removed from cold beer no matter what the fining agent.
     
     Another reason could be the type of haze.  PVPP is good at removing 
     chill haze because it selectively removes polyphenols from beer.  
     Overdosing with PVPP can undesirably alter beer flavor because too 
     much phenol will be removed (Steve A. should like that I included 
     that).  PVPP will not remove starch haze.  I don't think it is too 
     effective at removing yeast, either (anybody ever try this?).
     
     A caveat about PVPP:  it is not meant to be consumed, and the FDA has 
     not approved it for use as an additive.  While some may not mind 
     clogging their intestines with plastic it is contrary to some of my 
     reasons for homebrewing.  Commercial breweries filter out the PVPP.  
     They actually wash it in caustic soda and reuse it; PVPP is expensive 
     stuff.
     -------------------------
     Randy asks about the relatively new, large Wyeast packs.  These 
     contain 150 mL of wort instead of 50 mL (which is what the smaller 
     packs contain).  Randy says that they claim this package is directly 
     pitchable into a 5 gallon batch.  It costs a dollar more than the 
     small pack.
     
     It is my opinion that these packs are a rip off.  The amount of yeast 
     in them is, at best, 3 times the amount in the 50 mL Wyeast package.  
     This is not even close to being pitchable into a 5 gallon batch.  John 
     V's Palexperimenters experienced very long lag times (on the order of 
     36 hours) by pitching these packs without making starters.
     
     Wyeast gets a dollar extra (which is almost pure profit) and you still 
     need to make a starter in the exact same manner as if you had the 50 
     mL pack.  You decide which you will buy.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:01:48 -0400
From: Gary_H_Nazelrod at tst.tracor.com (Gary H Nazelrod)
Subject: RE: cleaning keg lines

In hbd 2820 Kevin Kutskill kkutskill at net-ex.com asks:

>I seem to have a recurring problem.  The beer in my kegs seem to pick up an
>off flavor about 3-4 weeks after tapping, which I attribute to
>dirty/contaminated keg lines (doesn't happen when I detach the the keg lines
>after dispensing beer).  I am currently using the plastic cobra taps, in a
>converted chest freezer.  What is the best way to clean and sanitize the
>lines, so I don't have to keep on detaching the lines?

What do you do with the keg lines when you detach them?  Empty and clean 
them every time?  I leave my attached all the time.  I have never noticed a 
problem with the hoses.  But disgusting stuff will grow in the cobra taps.  
The tap needs to be COMPLETELY disassembled to be cleaned.  Screw off the 
end, then push on the rubber part to remove the pressure on the lever, then 
slide the lever off of the stem of the rubber piece.  Nasty stuff grows in 
the cap where the rubber meets the cap.  I have had it so bad that pieces 
of crud come out of the tap into the glass of beer; even when it was that 
bad the beer in the keg was not infected.  I cleaned the tap and the rest 
of the beer in the keg was fine.

Gary Nazelrod
Silver Spring MD


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Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:10:55 -0700
From: John Baxter Biggins <jbbiggin at mail.med.cornell.edu>
Subject: Adjunct question

Okay...here's an academic (and perhaps stupid) question with which
perhaps someone could humor me.  I made a massive amount of chili this
weekend in the same kettle I brew my wort, and it occurred to me...has
anyone used beans for an adjunct?  Is is possible...can the malt amylase
break down the starch in the beans?  I imagine the higher protein
content might change things up a bit.

Not that I plan on making any pinto or garbanzo brew anytime soon...just
curious as to whether anyone has tried.

John Biggins
Cornell University Graduate School of Medical Sciences
Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:17:06 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Moisture Contents of Hops


Just a data point in response to:

>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:12:04 EDT
>From: Sahti at aol.com
>Subject: Re: Green hops


>Another reason to dry hops is a beer recipe (using whole hops) assumes the
>hops are dried.  Non-dried fresh hops have a certain amount of moisture in
>them, so you would not be able to assume 1 ounce of green hops (undried)
would
>have the same amount of alpha-acids or flavour compounds as 1 ounce of
dried
>hops.  I do not know how much water is in green hops (comments anyone?).
>Perhaps there is not enough to make a difference on small scale brewing. 

I recently picked 1 oz. of fresh hops.  After drying they weighted 0.25 oz.
 For this one case, I can say that the dried version is 25% of the weight
of the fresh version.  Of course, I am sure the % of moisture in fresh hops
can vary widely so YMMV.

Pete




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Date: 09 Sep 1998 09:49:30 -0400
From: Christophe Frey <cfrey at ford.com>
Subject: Grain storage, drying hops, parti-gyle/batch sparging


to: post@hbd.org

Thanks to everyone who posted answers (and privately e-mailed me). The
concensus is to store the grains in large garbage bags kept inside those white
buckets from bakeries and doughnut shops. I will begin scrounging now!

I find myself in the odd position of correcting Mr. Pat Babcock regarding the
weight loss from drying fresh hops. Strange indeed, since I have made three
trips in the last two weeks to his backyard to pick three large garbage bags
of the freshest, most out-of-control Cascade hops! The second batch I picked I
weighed in at 4.25 lbs (68 ozs.) when I got home. Utilizing Pat's recommended
method of drying, I spread them out over several window screens (scrounged at
a remodeling site) in my garage. Three days later when I checked on them, the
bright green little monsters were completly dried and weighed in at just under
12 ozs. This works out to a fresh to dry ratio of approx. 6 to 1!And they are
beautiful to behold indeed. But let me make a few observations. 1) Wear long
sleeve shirt when picking them. My arms were covered in little welts for two
days after. I am not sure if this is due to the little "catchs" that the hop
bines have to catch on to something to climb or if I have allergies. 2) Pat
grows his hops on a 4 foot high fence. Last year we trained them to go
sideways and they travelled a good 10-12 feet in either direction. This year,
they pretty much grew on their own and the yield was similar, if not better (I
believe his bines are 4-5 years old. The one growing in the compost pile tried
to grow on me while I was picking them. Back, back!). 3) Picking hops is a
labor of love. If you value your time at anything greater than minimum wage,
you will not save any money growing them yourself. I spend 2-3 hours picking
for 10-12 ozs. of hops of unknown alpha. Still, I love serving a beer and
mentioning that the hops come from a local friend (would like to say that they
come from my home, but I have to eliminate the bunny chewing factor next
year).

Finally, Dan Cole asks about parti-gyle / batch sparging. While I have only
done three barley wines in three years, each time I do it the same way and I
have great success. I utilize a 3-1/2 barrel system (PICO - trademark,
yada-yada) and I stuff some 40 lbs of grain into my mash tun. Once I have
achieved conversion I do sparge, but I stop when the equivalent of a batch
sparge has been achieved. I do a slow sparge (around 45 minutes to get the
first ten gallons) and I theorize that the sparge water is coming down through
the grains at a fairly constant rate, not diluting what is coming out. When I
get the 10 gallons, I continue to sparge an additional 12 gallons right behind
the first 10, taking hydrometer readings to ensure that I do not go beyond
1.010 - 1.012, adjusted for temperature. Some sources say you can go down to
1.008, but I did that the first time and I tasted the tannins and a grainy
off-flavor in my "small" beer. I have been known to throw a can of LME to
boost the small beer's gravity to the mid 1.040's range. I know that this is
not "batch" sparging, but with such a deep grain bed, I do not want the grains
to compress by cpmpletly draining the first running and potentially get a
stuck sparge for the second runnings.Also, I too fear that leaving 170o water
on the grains for such a long time will also contribute to some off flavors. I
look forward to seeing what other people said.

As a side note, recently we brewed 69 gallons of beer (an Oktoberfest, a
wheat, a brown ale and a SNPA clone) and I took running from each to create a
strange brew. It is a totally irreproducable brew and wouldn't you know,
everyone loves it! Don't you hate when that happens!

Sincerely,
Chris P. Frey
Strategic Planning & New Product Development  337-1642
chris.frey-ford at e-mail.com


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:56:05 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Triple decoction

George DePiro and Jeremy Price made some good comments on the advantages of
a single decotion over multiple ones (or none) and the importance of malt
selection,  to which I'll add that G.W. Kent* has just started importing
Durst dark Munich malt (40 EBC vs. 20 EBC for the regular Munich), which
they are shipping to enthusiastic breweries as far away as California.
Several of us in the AABG are looking forward to trying this in our
Dunkels, perhaps near or at 100%.  Combined with a single decotion, this
should make a great autumnal lager.  They are also bringing in
Dunkelweizenmalz, that is, dark wheat malt, which should make it possible
to make Dunkelweizenbier without any roasted malt, especially with the dark
Munich, just like in Germany.  How about Dunkelweizendoppelbock?  Or would
that be Dunkeldoppelweizenbock?

*usual disclaimer - owner Randy Reichwage is a friend and AABG member but
so far has not seen fit to cross my palm with silver for saying nice things
about him.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:07:34 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Chem/ChemE

"Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> exposed my dirty
little secret:

>isn't there
>a little Chem/ChemE in there too Jeff ?

I plead guilty, but only two years and no degree - damn little progress
toward one in those two years, either, which is why I switched to history.
What a relief that was - to study something that was fun rather than
beating my head against the wall.  Still, I retained a good bit, and then
the science siren called again, in the form of biology.

Thanks for the kind words.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:49:46 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: 19th Century beers

"Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com> asked me:
>Didn't you post a recipe at one time for a "Classic Am Porter"?
>Can you repost?

I don't think so.  I've suggested two other variants.  A Classic American
Munich (full gold color, 6-row base, 20+% corn, some Munich malt and some
German crystal, low hopping level ~20 IBU - well documented historically)
and turn of the century Irish-American ale.  The latter is not documented
in the literature I've seen, but is my best guess of what would have been
served in Irish-American taverns on the East Coast 100 years ago, where ale
had not yet been displaced by lagers.   Maybe like McSorley's.   Again,
6-row base, 20-25% corn, 10% flaked barley, crystal malt with a touch of
chocolate for a red/amber color, yeast choice and dropped for some buttery
diacetyl.  It's a fun St. Patrick's Day party brew.

Porters were certainly brewed in U.S. with corn (and Yuengling still does,
unless they use corn syrup now), and there are recipes in old references
such as Wahl & Henius (pre-pro) http://hubris.engin.umich.edu:8080/Wahl/
and Nugey (post-pro).  A 15 deg. Plato porter 100 bbl. recipe from Nugey
uses 3550 lbs. 6-row malt, 50 lbs. color malt (patent?), 1550 lbs. caramel
(50L) malt, 1350 lbs flaked maize, 6.75 lbs. licorice (!), 60 lbs. domestic
hops.  You could divide this by 600 and add a bit for scale inefficiency to
get a five gallon recipe.  BTW, old homebrew books from the 70's suggest
licorice, and I used it once.  Didn't like it.  I think you can still buy
"brewing licorice" sticks from some HB stores.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:08:22 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: in-line thermometer

>I spent a while trying to find a thermometer with a stem that would
>make a water-tight seal using a compression-T so that I could measure
>wort temperature as it enters the fermenter.  After a little
>searching, I dropped the idea and simply cut a slit in a piece of
>tubing.  The slit is just big enough to allow the stem of my Taylor
>pocket digital thermometer to fit in it.

Here's what I did.  I used a compression T-fitting and a 000 stopper.
I had to cut the stopper about it half so that the compression nut
(minus the ferule) would hold it in place.  Poke a hole in the stopper
a viola, you get something similar to what GDP is mentioning.

>Simple can be so good...

Yeah, but its more fun to over engineer a project.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:44:54 -0400
From: oberlbk at NU.COM
Subject: Nitrogen Dispensing

About 2 weeks ago, I posted a list of questions concerning using mixed gas
(CO2/N2) to carbonate and dispense homebrew.  Many people asked me to post
my results, but only one person provided any insight.  Since this person
was using a regular tap, I continued searching.  The following information
is provided by a homebrew store called Home Brew Mart.  I have no
affiliation with them and I have never even talked with them.  However, I
am posting all of their information since they were able to provide some
insight and it may be of help to someone else.  This probably violates some
sort of rule or something, but I feel they deserve a little plug for their
help.  I have tried to combine all of their emails into one story that
makes sense.

Them:  To dispense a beer that is "nitrogen dispensed" you carbonate and
dispense with the mixed gas.  First artificially carbonate the beer by
hooking up the mixed gas at about 35-40 psi then shake keg for a few
minutes.  You will not hear the gas going in as you do with straight co2
but it will saturate the beer.  Make sure you leave a few inches of head
space in the keg or it will be very hard to carbonate.  It is also a lot
harder to overcarbonate nitrogen dispensed beer.  Let keg sit overnight
after carbonating then purge excess pressure and hook up to mixed gas at
20-25 psi.  The high dispensing pressure creates the breakout when
dispensed through a stout faucet.  The faucet we sell is a stout faucet
with a restrictor plate and condensing nozzle.  It does not have a flow
control, as they are pretty much unnecessary.  By the way the mix is
usually 75% nitrogen 25% co2.

Back to me.  I then asked how cold the beer should be and if you need a
special regulator.

Them:  The beer must be cold that is 32-40 degrees F.  You just need a co2
regulator as the mixed gas comes in a tank with co2 threading.

Home Brew Mart
731 S. Hwy 101
Solana Beach, CA  92075
619-794-BREW (2739)
http://www.homebrewmart.com
brewmart at connectnet.com

Back to me again.  From all of my searching, it appears that you need a
stout faucet with a restrictor plate to create the creamy head associated
with Guinness (in addition to the mixed gas).  These start at about $85 and
I have seen them as high as $300, so shop around.  I have not been able to
figure out what causes the price difference.  They seem to just have a
higher mark-up from different sources, but I could be wrong.

I have not tried any of the above myself, so I have no idea if it is
correct.  It does seem to agree with the little snippets of information
that I was able to extract from other sources.  Again, I apologize for the
little ad, but I felt they were deserving.

Brent Oberlin
East Hampton, CT




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Date: 9 Sep 1998 09:59:25 U
From: "Kaczorowski, Scott" <kaczorowski#m#_scott at apt.mdc.com>
Subject: Single decoction


George de Piro says:

> When doing a single decoction it is easy to get around the protein 
> rest:  simply mash-in at saccharification, rest, pull the decoction 
> and boil, then return it to hit 165-168F (73.8-75.6C).  At this 
> temperature alpha amylase will convert the starch that is liberated 
> during the decoction boil.

Will it, though?  I mean, if my rest mash has been at sacch
temps for 15 or so minutes when I take my decoction and I
spend 10 or 15 minutes or so raising the decoction to a boil
(I like to be gentle when heating decoctions) and then I boil
for 10 or 20 minutes, my rest mash has been sitting for 45
minutes.  What sort of enzyme viability am I looking at in
my rest mash when I return the decoction?

I realize this has to do with the temp of the rest, with a
150F rest leaving me more friendlies than a 158F rest, but
I'd be concerned about my enzyme pool after such a schedule.
Certainly my beta is all toast when I return the decoction,
no?

Just curious.  George wouldn't say it if it doesn't work for
him.


Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA
kacz at deltanet.com



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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:59:07 -0600
From: "Fred Scheer-Malt Montana" <maltmt at marsweb.com>
Subject: Response to hbd# 2820 from 9/9/98

Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:27:46 -0500
From: Pvrozanski at ra.rockwell.com
Subject: re: drying Hops
Paul VanSlyke wrote:
>Good morning,
>The last batch brewed, I used leaf hops (cascade) purchased in oxygen
barrier
>bags. Previously I have used either hops packaged as plugs or pellets. 
The
>leaf hops were very green in color. Hops that I have picked and dried 
have
>always "browned" to some degree.
>
>My question is: How do the commercial growers manage to dry their hops 
and
>maintain the fresh green appearance?


Fred's 2 c:

The main reason behind drying hops is the storage factor. Fresh hops 
have about ~80% water content, and can't be stored. Hops are dried at~ 
60*C to a moisture
content of ~ 10%.

Fred Scheer
MALT MONTANA


Date: Tue,  8 Sep 98 05:55:23 MST
From: Sharon/Dan Ritter <ritter at bitterroot.net>  ASK'D THE QUESTION
Subject: favorite base malts II
A few weeeks ago I asked HBD readers to tell me their favorite ale and
lager base malts.

Dan Ritter <ritter at bitterroot.net>
Ritter's MAMMOTH Brewery - Hamilton, Montana



DAN:

Why don't you purchase the BRD ( North American Brewers Resource 
Directory)
and you find all the answers to your questions.
You can get a copy through the IBS Brewers Publications.

But more important, I think that Brewers wanna know why you
ask the question:".......tell me your favorite ale and lager base malt."
Tell the forum what your point behind that is, and I'm sure the
Brewers on the forum will answer to your question.




Fred  Scheer, President & Maltster
MALT MONTANA, Inc
maltmt at marsweb.com
"PORTER'S PRAISE DEMANDS MY SONG, PORTER BLACK AND PORTER STRONG"  ANON. 
CIRCA 1800


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:22:10 -0700
From: Gail Elber <gail at brewtech.com>
Subject: Re: Rice brews

Calgarey Penn writes:
>I have recently started experimenting with rice brews and would like to post
>some ideas and results.

Do you (or does anybody else here) know anything about brewing makkoli, the
rice beer of Korea? I was fond of it when I lived there for a year, but
inquiries at the Korean grocery in my town have been fruitless. Makkoli
sold in U.S. restaurants seems to be pasteurized, so I can't get a starter
that way.





Gail Elber, Associate Editor
BrewingTechniques
P.O. Box 3222
Eugene, OR 97403
Tel. 541/687-2993
Fax 541/687-8534
http://brewingtechniques.com




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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:10:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: iodophor/freezing fruit/FAN at bottling/bottle conditioning/oxygen

I've been offline for the better part of the last three weeks, which is
why I'm so behind in my reading and posting.  In a way, this is good,
because I can answer questions that have been left unanswered by others.

Larry writes:
>My bottle of BTF indicates that 1/4 oz in 2.5 gallons yields 12.5 ppm,
>consistent with the recommendations of the Fall 95 Zymurgy article.
>However, Noonan recommends (in New Brewing Lager Beer) a rate of 0.5 oz
>/ gal., seemingly equivalent to 62.5 ppm!!!  He also says this is a
>no-rinse concentration, but it seems a bit too close to the 75ppm that
>I've seen (somewhere) as requiring a rinse.

I think Noonan is recommending more iodophor than is necessary which is
litle more than wasteful.  *Technically*, iodophor is no-rinse *only* if
you allow the item to dry.  The iodine is very volatile and so none will
be left on the surface if you allow the item to dry.  However, I feel
that a few teaspoons of 12.5 ppm (just as Larry suggests) Iodophor will
not noticeably alter the aroma or flavour of 5 gallons of beer, so I
often use the items before they are fully dry.  I usually just shake
them off.  Some people claim to be very sensitive to iodine and claim
they can taste/smell it even at very small concentrations.  I'm not
one of them.  A bucket of 12.5ppm iodophor smells to me very faintly
fruity... that's all.

***
Darrell writes:
>I have now seen posted a few times a procedure that I hadn't been aware of;
>that is, freezing the peaches.  I had thought that one should take them up
>to about 170 degrees to kill bacteria, but that if one goes higher that
>it will release? pectins?  Could someone straighten me out on this one?
> 
>Is it easier/better to clean fruit, then freeze it?  What happens to the
>bacteria?

Freezing may kill some bacteria/yeasts/moulds, but not all.  170F may
kill most of it, but it will indeed "set the pectins," in my experience.
I have found that for raspberries, 10 minutes between 140 and 150F was
enough to kill *enough* wild yeasts and bacteria so that a fruit beer
made with these berries was not sour or overcarbonated even after a
*year* in the bottle (stored between 65 and 75F - sorry George... I
just don't have enough cooler space).  That, to me, indicates I did a
pretty good job of pasteurisation, no?

I clean and freeze the fruit, then pasteurise before use.  I suppose
you could pasteurise before freezing... the effect would probably
be the same.

***
Dave writes:
>you need to do some work in getting a better set of bottle fermentation
>conditions ( like adding a small amount of FAN to the beer at bottling)
>and increasng the active yeast content at bottling.

I disagree that the yeast need FAN at bottling time.  FAN is needed for
growth and we do *not* want yeast growth at/after bottling.  We simply
want the yeast to eat the primings and settle.  In my experience, the
usual sources of carbonation problems are: 1. too cold and 2. overfilled.
Often people will put sixpacks of primed beer directly onto a concrete
cellar floor.  Concrete cellar floors are often much colder than the
surrounding air and you are actually trying to carbonate at much too
cold a temperature for the yeast.

***
Steve writes:
>As I understand bottle conditioning, it typically takes the yeast a
>very short amount of time -- on the order of a day or two -- to
>ferment the sugar (I'm assuming the use of glucose here, since wort or
>DME would take longer). The remainder of the wait is for the evolved
>CO2 to dissolve into solution.

Ahh... you've been reading Miller, haven't you?  I suggest you take a
marker and strike out that whole paragraph in his book.  It's absolutely
incorrect.  If it were true, you would hear a big "ffffft" when you
opened a bottle a day or two after bottling.  You don't.  The CO2 goes
into solution and the headspace simultaneously as the yeast produce it.  
It does really take one to three weeks for the yeast to consume the
primings.

***
Jim writes:
>Brewing by Lewis and Young
>"the brewer can expect to produce about five times the amount of yeast he
>or she uses"
>"Even on wort yeast must be cajoled into producing the maximum amount of
>alcohol and the minimum amount of growth by restricting the availability of
>oxygen and using lower fermentation temperatures (9-20 C) than those
>preferred by the organism (25-28 C)"

Both statements are subject to disagreement.  A fermentation can produce as
much as 8 times the amount of yeast pitched and "restricting the availability
of oxygen" is *VERY* deceptive advice.  There are a few articles in
professional brewing journals (and one by our very own Tracy Aquila)
that advocate restricting oxygen, but for every one of these, there are
a half dozen articles in pro brewing journals that recommend the opposite.

Research in favour of providing sufficient oxygen outweighs that in
favour of restricting oxygen at least six to one.

As George pointed out, it's always safe to blame yeast strain dependency.
I'm willing to attribute strain dependency to the conflicting research
results.  Even if that were the case, the literature would seem to indicate
that the majority of yeast strains behave better when given sufficient
oxygen.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:39:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: restrictors/astringency/microwaves/O'fest/"plastic" beer/yeast Q's

More old stuff...

Two people wrote asking the same thing (one said he checked the archives)...
this is one:
>My second issue has to do with using mixed gas on homebrew.  I found a
>place with some quality "Guinness gas" and I would like to use it to create
>that magical head on my brew.  Do you simply just force carbonate with the
>mixed gas and then dispense with it too?  I have also heard that you
>lightly carbonate with CO2 and finish the job/dispense with the mixed gas.
>Which is correct?  Finally, when it comes to the faucet to go on the front
>of the freezer, it appears that there are 2 types of "stout" faucets.  One
>is called standard, and the other is a restrictor faucet.  What is the
>difference and which one will duplicate that Guinness pour?  I would guess
>the restrictor nozzle, but who wants to spend the money on a guess.  Ooops,
>one more question.  Do I need a special regulator to dispense mixed gas, or
>is my CO2 regulator good enough?
 
Maybe there is something wrong with the arcive search engines?

I know that this has been covered in great detail in the past, so it should
all be in the archives.  The short answer is this: you can *imitate* a
restrictor faucet by using a regular one and simply opening it very slightly.
This will form a sort of restriction.  It won't be perfect, but it will
save you money.  The Guinness pour is with the true restrictor faucet.
I'm not sure about the regulator... bring it to the gas place and see if
it fits... if it does, you can use it.  Other gases have different threads
and male-female connections so you don't accidentally use the wrong gas.
Confusing "Guinness gas" and CO2 is not as dangerous as mixing up oxygen
and acetylene or argon with your SCUBA tank, so I wouldn't be surprised
if the regulators were the same threads.

***
Phil writes:
>The standard Harpers Light and American Wheat were both there, neither of
>which was all that great, but combined they make up almost half the volume
>of beer sold on a given night. Amazing what the market can do to a
>perfectly good brewery. The Light was crisp, very clear, and had a
>distinctly bad aftertaste. What Eric might call Oxidized, I'll call
>astringency due to high adjunct use. And, well, maybe oxidized too. But
>that was the only one!
 
Why would astringency have anything to do with the amount of adjunct used?

Actually, oxidation can increase astringency because oxidised polyphenols
have a different (more astringent) taste than unoxidised.  I do believe
you are mistaken to blame astringency on adjuncts.

***
Nate writes:
>I've seen threads on using Microwaved starters in the archives, but nothing
>on using Microwave ovens for sanitation.  It seems that zapping equipment
>that would fit in there sure would be convenient; things like tubing,
>funnels, grain/hop bags, airlocks and maybe even hops that are not boiled
>(dry hops) for a short time.
 
Again, something wrong with the search engines?

This was beaten to death in the HBD years ago... it should have been found
by the search engines.  Just to put my own kick into this dead horse:
among all the other reasons that microwaves don't sanitise, I'd like to
add that bacteria are still very small relative to the microwaves and,
statistically, you can have many survive even if heating dry utensils
in a microwave was practical.

***
Cosmo writes:
>I just compleated my first batch of beer, using a recipe for an
>Oktoberfest form Papazian, slightly modified for my conditions.  It's
>not what I expected and would like some feedback.  The recipe:
>    6.6 # Irez Amber extract
>    1#  amber dry
>    1/2 # carmel malt
>    1/8 # roasted barley
>    1/8 # toasted barley
>    3 oz fresh Hallertauer (boiling)
>    1/2 oz plug Saaz (flavor)
>    1/2 pellet Saaz (aroma)

Ahhh, another of Charlie's favourite techniques that doesn't stand up
to the scrutiny of proper brewing methods: adding toasted pale malt
to extract batches.  None of the malts you have in your grain bill
have enzymes, so the toasted barley (toasting denatures the enzymes)
will add mostly starch to your beer.  Charlie adds a toasted malt to
a lot of his extract batches... it's *not* a good idea.

As for the recipe... the 1/2# of caramel malt is not a lot, but I'd
leave it out of O'fest recipes anyway.  The roasted barley is rather
unconventional for an O'fest too.  3 ounces of Hallertauer is quite a
bit of bittering for an O'fest.  Finally, I presume you mean 1/2 *ounce*
of aroma hops, but I'd like to point out that, despite the fact that
there are a few O'fests in Germany with a little hop aroma, Charlie's
own AHA guidelines do not allow for hop aroma in O'fests.  It's odd
that he would put aroma hops in a style that he claims doesn't have them.

***
Tom writes:
>I just tapped a keg of what was to be an IPA, but turned out closer to a
>barley wine.  I believe that the OG was in the neighborhood of 1080 and the
>FG was around 1010.  It has the slightest 'plastic' taste to it.  There is
>also a smell that I can only describe as being rather like Gerber's Baby
>Custard.  Any idea what caused this?

It's been at least 35 years since I've last tasted Gerber's, so I'll just
concentrate on the "plastic" taste.  That's usually from wild yeasts
which are very common when brewing in the summer.  It can also be caused
by chlorine, which may be due to residual sanitiser or from using unboiled
tapwater to top-up your fermenter (again, in the summer many municipalities
add *extra* chlorine).

***
Badger writes:
>1)  Why the slow start? is that a characteristic of Australian Ale yeast?
>any one have observations about this type of yeast?  I used this yeast a
>while ago when I first started, and I remember great flavor, but I have no
>idea if it was the yeast. I also don't remember it starting this slowly.
 
Sounds like old or mishandled yeast.  It should not take so long to start.
Was it refrigerated at the store?  It should be.
 
>2) Why does the color change as fermentation occurs?  (I can guess it has
>something to do with sugars)
 
Suspended yeast reflects light back at you.
 
>3)  Why does the package warn against rehydrating more than 15 minutes?
>what is the effect on starting fermentation?
 
I theorised that it has something to do with the yeast depleating their
supply of glycogen, but I was told by a yeast manufacturer (another one)
that even several hours of rehydration does not significantly depleat
glycogen.  I didn't have the time to ask why then the 15 to 30 minute
limit (that's what the Lallemand website says).
 
>4)  Is mixing yeast like this Bad?  anyone tried this before?  Can anyone
>hazard a guess to what the differences are in the two yeast's (Whitbread and
>Australian ale)
 
It shouldn't be.  There are a handful of brewers who still use mixed-strain
yeasts although the number is shrinking.  The biggest problem would be
if this was the greatest beer you ever made and you were unable to get the
right blend and timing of semi-dead yeast and newer yeast to duplicate the
recipe.
 
>Recipe:
>12 lbs. Amber malt extract Syrup
>6 lbs.  Wheat extract syrup
>1 lb.   Crystal 60 LB
>1 lb.   Flaked Wheat
>2 lb.   Honey, raw natural unprocessed.
>2 oz.   Hallertaur Hops 5.3%  boiled for 60 min.
>4 oz    Apricot Extract for 5 gallons (at Bottling/Kegging)
>4 oz    Lemon or Blackberry for the other 5 gallons  (at Bottling/Kegging)
 
Since there are no enzymatic malts in the malt bill, the flaked wheat adds
nothing but starch haze.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:46:35 -0400 
From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
Subject: decoction/protein rest 

collective homebrew conscience:

gdp wrote about avoiding the long protein rests with single decoction
mashing by mashing in at saccharification temp.  there's another way you can
do it if you can heat your primary mash tun, and it allows you to do a short
protein rest if you want.  mash in at 95 to 105 fahrenheit (or even cooler)
and pull the single decoction.  at lower than the optimum temps for
peptidase and protease ( typical compromise temp is somewhere between 122
and 131 for these), there should be limited action by these enzymes.  other
enzymes will be active, though. i believe some of the beta glucanases work
at these lower temps.  you could also possibly get some desirable effects
(particularly for weizen mashes) by increased ferulic(?) acid production;
also, to a lesser extent, overall acidulation (this may help slightly if you
have hard water and are brewing a pale beer). 

this allows you to do a shorter protein rest if you want (122 to 135 f),
either before or after adding the decoction back into the main mash.  keep
in mind the only enzymes available are the ones from the rest mash.

brew hard,

mark bayer 

 


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---