---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Stability of yeast on agar slants ("J. Kish")
  Re: Easy Keg (Robert Balsinger)
  Yeast culturing and storage ("Eric R. Tepe")
  Clinitest test...... (Joe Rolfe)
  Ph adjustments (down) Question (LEAVITDG)
  Yeast storage stability/ infections/ osmotic shock (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  spore killing (Jeff Pharr)
  Gott coller size, compilation & thanks (Corky Courtright)
  Water Quality & Cooling Wort ("Stuart Baunoch")
  Mash out / Clinitest and stuff / Steve's sprouting grain ("George De Piro")
  Clinitest fuss (Al Korzonas)
  Mash out / enzymes (Ian Smith)
  Re: HERMS (RobertJ)
  stepping up starters and aeration (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
  Anchor Porter (LEAVITDG)
  Clinitest Test (Al Korzonas)
  Burners (William Graham)
  Questions about commercial fridge (Brian Pickerill)
  Burtonization (Brian Pickerill)
  homebrew ``carbonator'' style caps for PET bottles (Jim Graham)
  Is my beer ruined ? (what a classic opener) (Randy Miner)
  Malting Quinoa ("Steinkamps")
  The Jethro Gump Request ("Rob Moline")
  Methane produced during brewing process? (Dave Humes)


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Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 14:45:58 -0700
From: "J. Kish" <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Stability of yeast on agar slants

To: Ed D'Anna,
    A starter made from a fresh slant does start faster
and perform better than an older slant. The malt agar
nutrient is keeping the yeast alive, but in 'slow-motion'
because of the cold refrigeration.
  I've been keeping slants of other fungi, namely gourmet
mushroom cultures, and the same thing happens. In fact,
they have to be moved to a different nutrient monthly, or 
they will sinesse on the same old malt agar. I have changed
to Potato-Dextrose-Agar, or Dog-Food-Agar to keep them alive
and happy.    That's a lot of extra work for maintainance.
 Then, I changed to a whole different storage method. The
cultures are not kept alive, but in a "dormant state". They
are placed in sterile, distilled water in vials, and kept
at room temperature for years, on the shelf. There is no 
nutrient or minerals, so the fungi enters a dormant state,
and they are held in Stasis.  To re-awaken, a sterile loop
is dipped, then streaked on agar, or mixed into 3mL of wort.
 They re-awaken in a fresh state ready to go back to work.
Obtain the article,"A simple,Practical Method for Long-Term
Storage of Yeast" by Michael D.Graham in BT March/April 1997.
   Joe Kish


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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 07:05:48 GMT
From: mgd2 at epix.net (Robert Balsinger)
Subject: Re: Easy Keg

Platisc 2L bottle and a carbonator? 
A small CO2 bottle and a line would store under a sink. Quick and
easy.

Robert Balsinger
Mechanicsburg, PA

On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 

>>I was wondering what the easiest way to keg is?  I don't want
>>to get into a elaborate keg set up.  I am planning on going to
>>an football game in few weeks and wanted to bring some homebrew.
>>Brining a keg might be easier than a case of bottles.


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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:39:40 -0400
From: "Eric R. Tepe" <erictepe at fuse.net>
Subject: Yeast culturing and storage

I would like to say that Steve Alexander's and Mort O'Sulllivan's posts
on yeast have been very informative, and I thought I would add my 0.02
worth of information.  I have a yeast bank of 6 yeasts stored under
sterile, Deionized water. They were prepared by growing up the yeasts in
25ml starters, centrifuging out the yeast cells, washing with sterile,
Deionized water 3X and resuspending in sterile, Deionized water then
aliquoting in sterile 1.5ml and storing in the fridge at 4c.  When
getting ready to brew I prepare a wort agar plate by baking the plate in
the oven at 350F and letting cool in a closed oven.  The agar was made
in the lab before I left and was autoclaved.  I heat it in a microwave
till it melts and boils.  I then pour about 7ml in the plate and cover
and let it harden.  I then use a large sewing needle stuck in a wood
dowel so that you use the loop side, sterilize it by heating on a red
hot oven element, resuspend the yeast by swirling with needle(also cools
the needle)and streak out the plate. I then let it grow for 3-5days at
room temp. until the colonies are nice and large. I then innoculate a
10ml starter with 5 isolated colonies. I step up to 100ml in 2 days,
when that is finished then I step up to 500ml, then 2 liters and use
that too pitch. If this helps anyone-great, but it works for me.

Eric


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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:23:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: Clinitest test......

Here is a simple test, that I would do if I
were brewing these days...lemee see been almost
two years now...but I think I remember enough...

Make a standard wort say 12P of moderate body
mid 150F would do for starters. Use all pale
in the first go round....even try extracts...

Make enough so you can pitch several varities of
yeast including a wild one you can grow on your own.
The particular wild one i know appears alot
is one that grows on poorly cleaned areas/equipment.
I dont know its name but under the scope they are
very small, slipper like and tend to hang tight
with the buddies.  The grow extremely quick and they
will take just about any wort to very low levels.

Pick several yeast of varied atten rates/levels top
and bottom yeast added to the frying pan....

Ferment at a normal rate for each let the wild 
one go at say 80F.

Examine all at whatever normal (if you call it 
that ) method you use to determine "primary done".
Then match that to the clinitest.

My guess at the results would be the wild one
is more than done. The others will vary depending
on the yeast used, but should be predictable.  

So the wort is the same and the yeasts are different
what does the clinitest indicate? Does that sound like
an answer to the clinitest issue?  I would imagine the more 
"hardcore homebrewers " out there may have tried this or  
started  this test.  maybe repeat with with another set of
wort and different yeasts... 


I am not promoting clinitest or the hydromter companies. 
I do like the idea of clinitest in that the sample size can
be small. A good thing for small scale brewing.  I never had 
a shortage of wort when I last brewed;) or healthy yeast for that
matter;0....



good luck and great brewing
joe rolfe


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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:09:18 -0500 (EST)
From: LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU
Subject: Ph adjustments (down) Question

Date sent:  28-SEP-1998 11:06:54 

Is it the case that gypsum is recommended more often than Lactic Acid to 
bring PH down to acceptible levels in that most times our water can use the 
calcium?  

too little time, and so much to brew!
 ...Darrell 
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/
_/Darrell Leavitt                              _/
_/INternet: leavitdg at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu _/
_/AMpr.net: n2ixl at amgate.net.plattsburgh.edu   _/
_/AX25 : n2ixl  at  kd2aj.#nny.ny.usa            _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/


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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:24:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Yeast storage stability/ infections/ osmotic shock

Steve gave a nice response to Ed D'Anna's questions concerning yeast
storage on slants. I have a few comments so here's my 50,000 lira worth:

Refrigerated slant storage: I've found this to be a nice method for
maintaining my yeast stocks. I do have to disagree with your statement,
Steve, about the supposed difficulty of streaking on petri plates - that
is, the problem of infection. I store my yeast on slants in the
refrigerator. My first step in getting a culture started for brewing is to
streak from the slant to the surface of a petri plate. I believe this
is useful for a couple of reasons. First, in streaking to single colonies
you get to see how the yeast are doing and are able to pick several nice
looking colonies for expansion up to pitching volume. By doing this you
know that you're starting from good viable yeast and unlikely to be
including any (gross) mutations or selected variants such as petits which
will produce smaller colonies (thus the name). Also, by picking well
isolated pure single colonies you can be pretty confident that you are
not introducing infections from bacteria or wild yeasts into your starter. 
In my humble opinion, streaking yeasts to petri dishes is definitely the
way to go and is in fact EASY TO DO, or at least it *should* be. I've seen
posts from people talking about building glove boxes and laminar flow
hoods, etc.. If this is fun or helps you sleep at night more power to you
but I believe this is total OVERKILL and hope it doesn't scare off others
from trying to streak yeast on their countertop.

Osmotic Shock: Another important issue with osmotic shock (or other
stresses such as temp change) is that, in addition to the homeostasis
problems the yeast face from osmotic pressure differences, the yeast will
respond to the new osmotic environment by changing the expression patterns
of numerous genes which will almost certainly alter the yeasts' behavior 
and, therefore, may have unexpected effects on the resulting beer.

 -Alan
  

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life."
	
	-Jim Squire


 -Alan Meeker
Johns Hopkins Hospital
Dept. of Urology

(410) 614-4974
__________________________________________________________________





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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 12:52:27 -0400
From: Jeff Pharr <pharr at metsci.com>
Subject: spore killing

Yes, but only when heated in a microwave oven.  Of course, I would
suggest following up with a cell count just to make sure...

- --Jeff
Actually, the best method for killing botulism spores is to whack each
spore several times with a hammer.

> -------------original message----------------
> 
> I'd like to know if anyone has ever tried using lye with Clinitest and
> if
> so, can you use it to kill botulism spores?
> 
> 
> Sorry, just couldn't help it.
> - --
> Doug Otto
> dotto at calweb.com
> Sacramento, CA
> 
> -------


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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:02:42 -0700
From: Corky Courtright <corky at discover.net>
Subject: Gott coller size, compilation & thanks

I recently asked what size gott cooler (5 or 10 gal) and what type of
straining system for lautering were recommended.  I wish to thank all of
thoes who were kind enough to reply.

The 10 gallon Gott cooler received 22 votes, versus 2 for the 5 gallon.
Three people recommended the 7.5 gallon.  5 people recommended the Phil's
Phalse bottom, 5 thought the home made manafold was the way to go and 2
liked the EasyMasher.

Tnx, Corky


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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:12:08 -0400
From: "Stuart Baunoch" <sbaunoch at homeruns.com>
Subject: Water Quality & Cooling Wort

I have a problem with water quality as chlorine is a big part of it.  I
take gallon jugs and fill them up and let them sit on the counter for a
couple of days with the top off.  This greatly reduces the amount of the
chlorine scent.
Is there are better way>>>?????

Also, instead of a wort chiller, I have been using the gallon bottles of
water after I let them sit in the freezer for 2-3 hours before brewing.
Before any ice crystals for.
 This bring the water temp down pretty well.
Is the a problem or is it a usuable solution to cooling the wort.

sbaunoch at homeruns.com




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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:10 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Mash out / Clinitest and stuff / Steve's sprouting grain 

     Hi all,
     
     Darrel asked about the purpose of mash out and every response has 
     contained misinformation.  Mash out at 168F(75.5C) does NOT denature 
     alpha amylase.  The homebrew book author who started this momily 
     should be shot.  OK, perhaps that's a bit harsh, or even outrageously 
     severe, but it is Monday morning.  I'm more forgiving later in the 
     week.
     
     The Germans refer to the rest at 168/75.5 as "late saccharification."  
     This is indeed a more appropriate name than "mash out" because it 
     makes it obvious that there is amolytic activity during this time.  
     The actual purposes of mash out are to increase extraction efficiency 
     (which many have said) and to ensure the breakdown of unacceptably 
     large dextrins.
     
     One person stated that skipping mash out would result in over 
     saccharification by beta amylase, resulting in a thin, over-attenuated 
     beer.  This is not true.
     
     The protein make-up of a beer has more to do with the body of a beer 
     than the residual dextrins.  That is why the recently discussed rye 
     beers can have such rich mouthfeel regardless of attenuation.  It is a 
     common error for brewers (even at small commercial breweries) to 
     saccharify at high temperatures in an effort to put extra body into a 
     beer.  The usual result is a worty tasting beer with inadequate body.
     ---------------------------------
     This segues nicely into a very quick bit about Clinitest.  Dave is 
     wrong:  there are unfermentable dextrins with reducing ends that will 
     yield a higher than 1/4% glucose reading using Clinitest.
     
     Steve's data clearly show that many commercial beers do not finish at 
     1/4% reducing sugar (using Clinitest).  Steve's suggestion of using 
     Clinitest to determine the reducing sugar content of a small forced 
     fermentation is excellent.  It reduces the amount of precious wort you 
     need for the forced ferment and reduces the amount of yeast you need, 
     too.  If you have yeast and wort to spare I see this as a waste of 
     money, but that is up to the individual to decide.
     
     Dave also includes agitation of the ferment in his list of good 
     brewing practices.  This is NOT true.  There are relatively few yeasts 
     that are such strong flocculators that they require rousing to finish 
     the ferment.  Agitating the ferment is generally a bad thing:  it 
     causes an overgrowth of yeast and all of the off flavors that go with 
     it.  Remember what happened to Schlitz when they started to agitate 
     their ferments to speed up the process...
     ----------------------------
     Steve found a young barley plant in his compost heap and assumed it 
     sprouted from some unmalted roasted barley.
     
     While barley is quite a hardy plant, it is not that amazing.  A more 
     likely source of the young plant is a malted barley kernel that was 
     not mashed.  Yes, contrary to what many believe, malting does not 
     always kill the barley.  Some of the seeds will survive the kilning 
     process, especially if kilned at low temperature (like Pilsner malts). 
     Jim Basler (Briess malting) told me this and (being skeptical) I tried 
     it at home (using some fresh, home-malted grain).  One seed (out of 
     about 50) re-animated and is now about 6-inches (15 cm) tall!  I 
     should bring it in before the weather gets too cold...
     
     Is there a danger that it is actually a zombie barley plant?  This 
     could be the plot of a pretty boring horror flick.  "Night of the 
     Living Malt."  SEE dead seeds sprout to life!  HEAR the horrific sound 
     of farm equipment!  SCREAM in TERROR as firmly-rooted zombie barley 
     plants wait patiently for some unfortunate passersby to stumble into 
     their field!!!
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:22:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Clinitest fuss

Kris writes:
>Ummm, what ever happened to using the good ole hydrometer to get 
>an indication of how much reducible sugars are left in your beer?
>Kris testing after fermentation:  "Well, it's down to 1.010! Excellent! 
>It's done, time to keg!"  and that's that.

Alas, Kris's post highlights the main argument that Steve Alexander,
myself and several others have with Clinitest.  Just as you can't
expect a 1.120 OG Imperial Stout to finish at 1.010, you can't expect
it to finish with a 1/4% Clinitest reading.

Our main point is: that for some beers, you need to consider other
factors (like OG, amount of crystal malt, additions of maltodextrin,
yeast attenuation, etc.) when using *any* tool for determining the end
of fermentation.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/



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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 12:37:38 -0600
From: Ian Smith <isrs at cmed.com>
Subject: Mash out / enzymes


I usually do fairly long mashes - usually 3+ hours due to my work schedule. 
Question: if the starch is all converted at 90 minutes and the 153 F 
temperature has de-natured the enzymes (or most of them) then the mash out 
is only important in increasing sugar solubility and improving mash 
efficiency. Surely after 90 minutes the enzymes are almost all depleted and 
those that are left are converting so slowly that an extra 90 minutes has 
little or no effect? If I continue for 90 minutes extra will this harm my 
beer (wort) in any way?

Cheers
Ian Smith



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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:40:12 -0400
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re: HERMS

In HBD 2823 Pete wrote

I am contemplating converting my gravity setup into a HERMS.
I read about this setup at www.PBSbeer.com.  In a nutshell, they used 
an immersion chiller in the hot liquor tank and a pump in a recirculating
setup to pump the wort thru the immersion chiller sitting in the hot
liquor tank to heat up the wort to step up the mash temp.  Well that is
what I want to do.

 - --

While there are a number of variations to the concept of raising mash
temps. by recirculating the mash through a heat exchanger in the sparge
vessel, the term HERMS was originated by PBS and refers to our particular
system. Another variation can be found at "the backyard brewery" page.


The basic concept, as described above will work but there is a lot more
to consider when developing such a system that will give the desired
results of Fast temp. raises, not overheating recirculating wort and
simplicity for ease of operation and consistency of batches.


We designed HERMS for a 15 gal brew system. To do HERMS for a smaller
system, as you're suggesting, with the bruheat would take a bit of
development and experimenting with coil size/design and flow rates to
meet the speed and efficiency you desire. You should also reduce HSA when
returning the wort


Once done however, I think you'll enjoy the results of your effort: the
ability to raise mash temps quickly, not heat mash above 158F, Hit & hold
temperatures accurately, not thin the mash by adding water to raise
temps. and not carmelize your wort.



Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.pbsbeer.com


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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:58:02 -0400
From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
Subject: stepping up starters and aeration

collective homebrew conscience:

regarding the recent comments on stepping up starters and not decanting the
fermented wort off the yeast slurry, what happens if you're doing this under
conditions of constant aeration?

are you then essentially oxidizing finished beer (alcohol etc) if you leave
everything in the starter vessel?  doesn't this hurt the flavor of the big
batch when you pitch the starter culture (if you pitch the whole thing in
high krausen)?

brew hard,

mark bayer


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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:19:47 -0500 (EST)
From: LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU
Subject: Anchor Porter

Date sent:  28-SEP-1998 17:17:11 

Anyone have an Anchor Porter recipe?  I am particularly fond of this porter 
and would like to try to make it.  I'd prefer all grain, but will do 
anything that may help me to mimic this wonderful brown substance, without 
which, our lives would be terrible.
 ...Darrell
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/
_/Darrell Leavitt                              _/
_/INternet: leavitdg at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu _/
_/AMpr.net: n2ixl at amgate.net.plattsburgh.edu   _/
_/AX25 : n2ixl  at  kd2aj.#nny.ny.usa            _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/


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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:40:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Clinitest Test

Dave wrote:
>Another HBDer has written me to suggest a study be carried
>out by HBDers in which good brewing practices with regard to
>agitation, yeast starter size, temperature, oxygenation and the
>like and a steady reading of % glucose by Clinitest over several
>days to a week be used as the fermentation  endpoint.  I think
>this is a great idea, but it should be independent of either of us,
>except to comment on the conditions for the experiments
>before they are carried out. How about that?

Great idea.  It could even be published in Brewing Techniques, in
Louis K. Bonham's column.  I support this initiative 100%

On the same topic,

In HBD #2832, Dave said:
>Clinitest is nearly perfect in that it
>measures all reducible sugars in beer. These are all fermentable.

However, back in HBD #2700, Dave wrote:
>At the beginning of the
>fermentation, there is about 3% sucrose in the wort which
>will be unresponsive to Clinitest, but once fermentation sets
>in, this is quickly inverted by extra-cellular yeast invertase to
>simple sugars which are responsive to Clinitest. Throughout
>the fermentation the Clinitest will be responsive to a dextrin
>content which is unfermentable, but gives a response of <1/4%
>at its reducible sites.

Which is, in part, why in HBD 2834, I wrote:
>Wrong.  They are *NOT* all fermentable.  Many (unfermentable) dextrins
>have reducing ends and thus would cause a positive response on
>Clinitest.  This was my initial suspicion (why I initially felt the
>test may be suspect) and why I still contend that some beers will
>read greater than 1/4% "glucose" when they are indeed fully fermented.
 
To which, Dave responded in HBD #2835:
>Al, I daresay there are few readers of HBD who are unfamiliar
>with this unsupported opinion of yours. Fact is, you have your
>suspicions but no facts and you refuse to gather them, despite
>my pleadings for months. My facts stretch back over several
>decades and are in many pages of my notebooks.  

My "unsupported opinion" is based, in part, on your own admission
in HBD #2700 that Clinitest reacts with dextrins which *you* said 
are unfermentable (also in HBD #2700) *and* on the fact that dextrin
content varies from recipe to recipe.  How can the Clinitest result
*not* vary from recipe to recipe?

Explain to me, Dave, how if you make a 1.050 OG beer that finishes
with a Clinitest reading of 1/4% (which Steve Alexander has done),
an 1.100 OG beer made with double the same malt content wouldn't
finish with a Clinitest reading of 1/2%?

Finally, Something else that has been bothering me for a while, is
that in HBD #2700, Dave says:
>Andy Walsh did an excellent study in which he reviewed the
>impact of various dextrins and Clinitest's response to
>various molecular weight dextrins.  He concluded, as I
>recall, that these could cause some interference with the
>exact determination of glucose (which I had always suggested),
>but that Clinitest was OK for following the progress of a
>fermentation, which is what Harlan asked for.

But what Andy *really* said, was:
>Clinitest reads low for the major sugars left after fermentation.
>Maltotriose typically forms 10% of wort gravity in an all malt wort.
>eg. 1.050 wort has ~5 SG points of maltotriose. The lowest measure
>on Clinitest is 0.25%, corresponding to about 4SG points of maltotriose
>as being the minimum resolution for this sugar. One of the most common
>fermentation disorders is an inability to ferment this sugar. Clinitest
>will not normally detect this.  In addition, as one does not know the
>final sugar composition, a reading on Clinitest of 0.25% could mean very
>different things since it does not measure the different sugars to the
>same degree of accuracy. 
>
>Conclusion - Clinitest does not give an accurate portrayal of final
>sugar concentrations. It may be useful as a general fermentation indicator,
>but I won't rush out to buy one.

As Dave said in HBD #2833:
>Unfortunately it is difficult to re-write history when it is already
>written down.

I concur.  At least we agree on some things, right?

I hear that David Kendall may soon be in search of work, Dave.  Perhaps
he could help you with obfuscating the inconsistencies in your testimony?

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:03:48 -0600 (MDT)
From: William Graham <weg at rmi.net>
Subject: Burners

Brewers-
	Save my hearing, please! I have some kind of Kooker from Metal
Fusion? that is exceptionally loud when I'm brewing. I thought it was a
Jet-type (cuz of the loud noise, obviously), but after browsing the web,
it appears to me that it is called a "ring" burner. It looks to me like a
cast-iron cup with a serrated-edge, cast iron plug in the middle. The
flames come thru the serrations, giving a ring of flame maybe 1 1/2" in
diameter.

	I've been looking for what I call a "true" ring burner, i.e. a
burner that looks like a skinny 4 - 8" diameter doughnut, with many
individual orifices all along the top of the doughnut. Other requirements
would be that it is for propane, have reasonable quietness, and have
reasonable BTU output (> 35000 - although I suspect there is probably a
correlation between BTU output and sound output). Also, I need it to work
on Sankey kegs.

	Does anyone know if such a thing exists and where I could buy one?

My ears and (close) neighbors thank you.

	Bill

Brewing in the shadow of Coors - I wish all factories smelled this good!

"...the only way to deal with bureaucrats is with stealth and sudden
violence."  -  Butros Butros-Ghali



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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:57:56 -0600
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Subject: Questions about commercial fridge

To: Forrest Duddles - aka "FridgeGuy" and the rest of the HBD,

Forrest--First let me say (as I am sure everyone else agrees) that I'm
really glad you survived that accident with your fridge!

After years of waiting and looking for the right opportunity, I have
FINALLY come upon a spare fermentation fridge.  A friend salvaged it out of
a restaurant.  They were remodeling and changing to a new franchise and
were throwing it out.  It's totally stainless inside and out--really
beautiful, and appears to be very heavy duty.  It's a "Victory" model, with
the name in large letters on the handle.

The thing is that it's a counter model, only about 16" tall inside.  My
friend is beer lover, not a brewer, and didn't know that it would be too
small.  But I took it anyway as the price was right and I figured I could
use it for beer storage if nothing else.  Heck, maybe rip off all the
stainless and make a conical...  :)  Actually, it _occured_ to me that the
unit could be sat on it's side, but this is probably a really stupid idea,
right?  I'm not planning on using it this way.  _If_ if were only a matter
of aesthics, a five gallon plastic fermenter or carboy would easily fit
with the unit on it's side.  Door looks like it would work fine that way,
too, as it lifts off the hinge pins very easily.  The thing looks
completely square, with all the cooling harware is on the bottom of the
unit, with the exception of the evaporator coil and fan in the very back of
the cooling compartment.

It's about 34" in width and nearly as deep.  I have not really played with
it enough to know if I would need a temp controller or not.  It has no dial
for temp, but a screwdriver slot.  (I'm sure that in the restaurant
business, they  don't want the workers to play around with the settings.)

It's very loud, unfortunately, but this is not a major deal as it's in the
brewery (garage.)  It's much louder than my old "overflow" fridge (that I
have never been able to dedicate to fermentation).  At first I thought that
it wasn't working properly, because it never seemed to stop, but then
realized that it's just the internal fan that is running constantly, and
not the compressor.  The large internal fan is in the back of the unit in
front of the cooling coils and pointing toward the door.

I'm going to try to find a short, squat fermenter bucket to fit inside.
Maybe a few 2.5 gallon carboys would fit and I could do yeast
experiments...  I can use a blowoff or somthing to cut down on the height
requirement.  Anybody got any ideas?  I figure I need a new plastic
fermenter anyhow.  I will probably get a temp controller as long as I can
find a fermenter to fit.  I'm not worried about the geometry, really.

Should I check into the noisy fan somehow?  Any routine maintenence I
should do or have done on it, besides cleaning the condenser coils/fan?

Sorry for using all this bandwith, but I would sure like any help, info.,
or suggestions.  Thanks!

- --Brian Pickerill, Muncie Malt Mashers, Muncie, Indiana




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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:57:57 -0600
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Subject: Burtonization

Al said:

>I have to disagree with Noonan here.  Sulphate is not bitter and you can
>prove it to yourself.  No amount of calcium sulphate (gypsum) or magnesium
>sulphate (Epsom Salts) added to water will cause the water to taste bitter.
>Try it!  I have.  What Noonan is omiting, and the point that is *most*
>important about sulphate, is that it increases the *perception* of bitterness
>from hops.  In other words, 40 IBUs and 10ppm of sulphate will be less bitter
>than 30 IBUs and 350ppm of sulphate.

Like many of you I'm sure, I've read Al's experiment before, and even tried it
once. But, of course, what we are concerned about is the effect of gypsum on
beer, not water. I'm not disputing what you are saying Al, but I wonder if
you might be oversimplifying.  It appears from my notes that water with
higher levels of sulphate or magnesium does make my beer more bitter, er,
uh, makes it _taste_ more bitter...  :)

- --Brian Pickerill, Muncie Malt Mashers, Muncie, Indiana




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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:42:06 -0500
From: Jim Graham <jim at n5ial.gnt.com>
Subject: homebrew ``carbonator'' style caps for PET bottles

After mentioning the homebrew Carbonator-style caps I made in a recent
post to the HBD, I've gotten several requests for info on how to make
them, so here goes. :-)  The idea wasn't mine, btw...a local professional
brewer---who is also our homebrew club's treasurer, gave me the idea when
I was about to spend a lot of money....

Anyways, here's how you make them:

It's really, really simple.  Get a 2L PET bottle.  In fact, get a bunch
of them.  While you're out, buy some replacement valve stems (as in, go
to your nearest Auto Zone, etc., and buy replacement (tire) valve stems).
You can go the expensive route and buy chrome, or you can do what I did
and just buy rubber valve stems.  Drill a hole in the top of the PET
bottle caps and push the valve stem through (it should specify a hole
size---drill that size hole).  Then you'll want a replacement air-pump
hose so you can hook your CO2 up to the valve stem.

By the time you buy parts to make four carbonator caps and one CO2
hookup, you'll spend (including four PET bottles...assuming 69 cents
each---I buy ones with plain carbonated water in them) about $8.00.
That's for *FOUR*.  You'll spend twice that on the real Carbonator
cap...for *ONE.

Oh, one point....  Needless to say, unless you buy a replacement air
hose with a shut-off valve (I didn't), don't turn your CO2 on until
everything is connected up, or you'll waste CO2.  Even with a 20 lb
tank, I don't like to just waste CO2....  But then, I not only have
the ball valve on the CO2 regulator, I also have two ball valves on
the 'Y' fitting that splits between the CO2 going into the beer
fridge and the external CO2 line that I use for PET bottles, force
carbonating, pushing beer through filters when I filter, and so on,
so it's just a question of shutting off the right valve.  :-)

Later,
   --jim

- -- 
73 DE N5IAL (/4)               MiSTie #49997         < Running Linux 2.0.21 >
jim at n5ial.gnt.net || j.graham at ieee.org  ICBM / Hurricane: 30.39735N 86.60439W

          ===  Do not look into waveguide with remaining eye  ===



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Date: 	Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:18:59 -0400
From: Randy Miner <rdm07993 at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
Subject: Is my beer ruined ? (what a classic opener)

I've brewed my 7th batch and it, like my 6th brew, has something wrong with
it.  According to my untrained senses it has a strong bananna smell and I'm
having some trouble discribing the taste.  It has this tangy taste that I
can't relate to anything.  It's not sour, and it tastes very similar to the
last brew I did.  It's not something that can be overlooked, it is
completely overpowering.  It's hard to get past the bad bananna smell also.
I have never had a problem like this with my previous brews.

Some notes on my process.
!) It is supposed to be a brown ale on the sweet side, but I don't worry
much about sticking true to the style. I care a lot more about it being
enjoyable at this point, which it is not.  The ingredients:
   6.6# Northwestern brand Gold Liq. extract
   0.5# Choc. malt
   1.0# Crystal 60L
   0.5# British Pale
   1.0oz Fuggles pellets FWH (just because I had it in the fridge...)
   1.0oz East Kent Golding 60 min. boil
   0.5oz Pearle steeped while wort cooled from boil to 145F in ice bath in sink
   2 tsp Gypsum in mash water
   2 tsp Irish Moss
   Wyeast british ale #??? (small smack pack stepped up to 500ml)

2) Mashed 1.25 gal. water + grain & gypsum from cool up to 160, removed
from heat and covered for 60 min.  Sparge 1 gal.  at  170F but my sparge
system at this point is a colander in another big pot. (is HSA a problem
here or only after the boil?) Then back into the kettle with the extract
and hops for the boil.  60 min. boil, with IM added half way.  Pull off the
stove and added Pearle, sat the kettle in the sink full 'o ice water.
Dropped down to about 145F and poured into carboy through a large funnel
with the drop-in type strainer screen.  Pellet hops make this clog and it
is a real PITA.  The yeast was pitched to a starter on Friday morning and
pitched Sat evening around 6, for about 36 hours all together.  Don't know
the OG of the starter.  I used a pre-measured pack of Liq. extract...  Lag
time was about 12 hours until it was really going well. Forgot to take an
OG reading.

3)At bottling time it had a slight bananna smell to it, but the taste
seemed OK I thought.  It was very clear and the color looked fine to me.
FG was about 1.020, but I think my hydrometer reads about 0.002 high.  Used
a little over 3/4 cup corn sugar to prime.

4) The color and clarity still seem fine, 8 days since bottling.  However
the problems are there as mentioned earlier.

5) I have been using idiophor for the last 3 brews, and the starter for the
last 2 brews (both with the same problem).  Those are the only big changes
from the earlier batches which were fine.

6) I'm going to try to make it to the next Central Florida Homebrewers club
meeting and will have some along.  So if anyone is in this area and cares
to taste it and tell me what they think it would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Randy Miner

       _______________________________________________
______|                 Randy Miner                   |_____
 \    |       rdm07993 at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (home)      |    /
  \   |                                               |   /
  /   | http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~rdm07993/home.html |   \
 /    |_______________________________________________|    \
/________)                                          (_______\




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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:45:36 -0500
From: "Steinkamps" <EnW_Steinkamp at email.msn.com>
Subject: Malting Quinoa

Perhaps I did not go into whether my "malted Quinoa" was malted.  Well, I
soaked the
seeds, drained them and put them in a dark corner.  They should have been
stirred every four hours or so, but I confess, I didn't get up in the middle
of the night to do it.  I  did this late on a Thursday night, expecting to
dry the malted grain the following weekend.  The stuff was sprouted Sunday
morning.  At first, I though it was mold.  (Arggg, my friend brought that
stuff back from South America for nothing!)   However, upon closer
examination, it was truly sprouted and not moldy at all.

I did not have food dehydrator and the lowest setting on my oven was 160F.
(It was digital and I assumed that I could set it to 110F.  I found out
later that you couldn't set it for less than 160).  This meant that about
the only option I had was to make Crystal Quinoa.

I rinsed, drained and put the grain in my roasting pan.  (Roasting pans
aren't just for turkey anymore!  I roasted it wet for a few hours and then
put the grains on cookie sheets to roast dry.  They turned from white to a
brownish red.  I brewed the first batch the following weekend.

So yes, the quinoa was malted.

Ed Steinkamp





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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:53:35 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Request

		The Jethro Gump Request
	After having had many problems, mostly self induced, as a result of being
computer illiterate, Jethro thanks Scott Abene for getting me back
on-line..........
	I will be  at  GABF, and would very much like to meet other HBD'rs.....to this
end, I would request that any of the collective attending this event and who
would easily suffer the indignity of having a beer with Jethro e-mail me,
and let me know how to contact them........


Jethro Gump
brewer at ames.net



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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 98 23:38:46 -0400
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Methane produced during brewing process?

Greetings,

I just came accross the following news bite in the October 1998 Scientific
American:

"Breakthrough Brewing?"
"Fuel cells, which combine hydrogen and oxygen to generate electricity,
have yet to achieve widespread use in industry.  But they seem to have
found a foothold in brewing.  Fuel cells made by Mitsubishi Electric
Corporation are providing power to Asahi and Sapporo breweries in Japan,
according to Nikkei America, and the Kirin Brewery Company's Tochigi
brewery will be installing a fuel cell next year, utilizing hydrogen made
from methane produced during the brewing process."

I'm not aware of methane being produced in significant or any quantity as
part of the brewing process.  The only way I could imagine obtaining any
significant methane would be from composting the spent grains and hops. 
But that's not exactly part of the brewing process.  Any ideas?

Cheers!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>                  Dave Humes
- -----------------------------------------------------------



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