HOMEBREW Digest #2883 Tue 24 November 1998

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  feeding weizen (Michael Rose)
  Westmalle Triple Yeast (SCHNEIDERB)
  Using Extract to Acidify Sparge Water (Ken Schwartz)
  Re: . . . pronounce . . . (Rod Schaffter)
  Re: Aluminum open fermentors (Jeff Renner)
  re: Zima/Clear Beer (Jeff)
  Heart of Wortness (Vachom)
  RE: Ron West/Weizen Changing Character (Bob Sheck)
  Lactose (John_E_Schnupp)
  Re: Aluminum open fermentors/I hate carboys (Chad Bohl)
  Pronounciation of Willamette (Dan Schultz)
  Re: Kraeusen pronunciation? (Danny Breidenbach)
  easy HLT with a sight glass (Peter.Perez)
  bottoms for Mash Tun with Burner.... (Badger Roullett)
  pronounce -PNW (Badger Roullett)
  Wil-LAM-ette ("Hans E. Hansen")
  re: Weizen Changing Character (Ronald Babcock)
  yeast storage test/zima cloning (Jim Liddil)
  thermometer calibration (revisited) (Herbert Bresler)
  ALuminum open fermenter, Kraeusen pron. ("David R. Burley")
  Regarding Lauter Tun Flow and Darcy's Law (John Palmer)
  Metalic flavor ("Steinkamps")
  Rhymes with Dammit (Tim Anderson)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:00:32 -0800 From: Michael Rose <mrose at ucr.campuscw.net> Subject: feeding weizen I'm so happy that the collective is so tolerable of stupid ideas. Lets push those limits once again. Would it be possible to feed a hefe-weizen? Every week add a teaspoon of wheat extract to keep the yeast in suspension and keep the banana, clove-like characters of this beer??????? Mike Rose Riverside, CA mrose at ucr.campuscw.net Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:28:40 -0500 From: SCHNEIDERB at morganco.com Subject: Westmalle Triple Yeast I am wondering what yeast is in the bottle of this beer. Do they use the same yeast in bottle conditioning from the fermentation, or is it another used just for bottling? I was thinking of growing it up after reading about the Chimay yeast propogation. - bas Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 06:04:31 -0700 From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com> Subject: Using Extract to Acidify Sparge Water Jason Gorman asks: "I read somewhere that adding a small amount of DME to the sparge water will increase the acidity and help out the sparge. I could not find it in the archives. Does anyone remember this? Does it really help? What is the of DME to water ratio?" I posted the results of an experiment I did in conjunction with some work on partial-mashing, which showed that adding 1 tablespoon of dry or liquid extract per gallon of ION-FREE water (like distilled or RO) establishes a pH below 6.0. Recall that wort (even extract wort) has a pH in the low 5's, so if the water has little buffering power, extract can act as an "acid" -- it's kinda like a snapshot of the chemistry of the mash that it was made from. Keep in mind that if you try this with "tap" water it may still work but will probably take a LOT more extract. - -- ***** Ken Schwartz El Paso, TX kenbob at elp.rr.com http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:37:11 -0500 From: Rod Schaffter <schaffte at delanet.com> Subject: Re: . . . pronounce . . . John Asks: > A recent visitor to the Pacific northwest tells me that the local > pronunciation of "Willamette" in that area is more like will-LAM-met > than the will-lam-ETTE I had expected. Can anyone verify this? My wife grew up in Albany, OR, which she says in on the banks of the "will-LAM-met" River. Cheers! Rod Schaffter Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:58:44 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Aluminum open fermentors "Jim" Breadnale at aol.com asks >All this talk about Aluminum kettles makes me wonder what everybody out there >thinks of using Aluminum for an open fermentor. I claim Ignorance (happily) on >the science of Aluminum and it's contribution to Boiling wort/Fermenting beer. >Just looking for a simple answer. Whatddayathink? I'm looking for a good open >fermentor. I use my 10 gallon aluminum sparge water heating vessel to ferment my ales in all the time. I love it. It's already sanitized at the end of a brew since I boiled sparge water in it. This makes skimming of crud and harvesting of top cropping yeast easy, and the valve makes transfer easy. I generally use the lid, but sometimes use a wide sheet of plastic wrap so I can see the fermentation. I figure open fermenting does not require actual exposure to environmental nasties. >Thanks. I have no idea how far Jeff Renner is from me! Well, the whole idea is to let us know *where you are*, not how far you are from me. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:03:25 -0500 (EST) From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff) Subject: re: Zima/Clear Beer Hi All, Fred Scheer wrote (quoting Richard Scott): >>>>> Zima or.........2-Dog Lemon Brew.......... she has her heart set on clear-near-beer Richard, I was involved in the making of a lot of clear beer, my recommendation is to further purchase the products, because it will be impossible to make that kind of beer at the homebrew level. We had made pilot brews ( 1 bbl) to see if we could develop some other CLEAR products.................NO luck. <<<<< Someone posted here a while back about filtering a pale ale through a sub-micron carbon filter and turning their pale ale into a Zima like brew (ie. it stripped almost all of the color and flavor). Maybe brewing a light bodied, low hop, blonde/golden ale, filtering it through a tight carbon filter, adding lemon to taste, and then force carbonating it would produce something close to Zima. Adding more lemon would get close to 2-Dog Lemon Brew. Hoppy brewing, Jeff ========================================================================== Geoffrey A. McNally Phone: (401) 832-1390 Mechanical Engineer Fax: (401) 832-7250 Launcher Technology and email: Analysis Branch mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil Naval Undersea Warfare Center WWW: Code 8322; Bldg. 1246/2 http://www.nuwc.navy.mil/ Newport, RI 02841-1708 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:15:56 -0600 From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us> Subject: Heart of Wortness Mistah Wort--he dead. Mike New Orleans, LA Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:24:19 -0500 From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net> Subject: RE: Ron West/Weizen Changing Character Ron- As a long-time kegger, I too always note the changing character of a keg of brew will change as time passes. This is a normal process and is caused by the settling out of the yeast. Yeast has flavor too- and so do all the solids floating around in there. As they settle out, you will start to taste other components. If this troubles you, or you want a more consistant product, then don't taste (or serve) the brew until you have insured the majority is settled out- or filter, which to me is not an option! What I do is enjoy the beer as it comes out of the keg- but I have learned to drop the temp down to 28 Deg F for three-five days in order to get the yeast to drop out- 'brightening' is another word used to describe this. Then raise the temp back up to serving temp. Also you can rack the beer into a clean corny after this process so you can transport the keg without worry of stirring up the settled yeast. Condition as you normally find best results. Bob Sheck / Greenville, NC bsheck at skantech.net Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 06:44:36 -0800 From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com Subject: Lactose Does anyone know the gravity contribution of lactose? I know it's a non-fermentable but I'm going to add it during my boil and I like to be able to calculate an accurate starting gravity. I can find several mentions of lactose in CP's books but no info on it's pt/lb. If this is in the archives I apologize. I don't have a way to search them from home (do I?) as I only have my e-mail and no www access. One another digest I get I can search for a keyword and I will be e-mailed a list of digests that hit. I can then request the entire digest. Does something like that exist here? Doing a general search that way is arduous, but when searching for something very specific works ok. TIA, John Schnupp, N3CNL Colchester, VT 95 XLH 1200 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:16:06 -0730 From: Chad Bohl <chad_bohl at dgii.com> Subject: Re: Aluminum open fermentors/I hate carboys Rather than getting into the chemistry of what may happen to your beer when usingvarious metals in the brewing process... try this... take your clean aluminum pot and a piece of paper, fold the paper a couple times and rub vigorously on the inside of the pot for about 10 seconds, then look at the paper (an exaggeration, but this gray gunk is getting into your beer); to add to this experiment, boil a couple cups of water in your clean aluminum pot for about 15 min. and then pour the result into your favorite beer glass, let it cool, look at the color, and taste it... Some of you may not get the gray paper and water color (and the crappy metallic taste), but testing your brewing equipment is the best way I know to make sure it's not adding unwanted nasties into your wort/beer. ~ Chad > Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 17:41:04 EST > From: Breadnale at aol.com > Subject: Aluminum open fermentors/I hate carboys > > Hey, > All this talk about Aluminum kettles makes me wonder what everybody out there > thinks of using Aluminum for an open fermentor. I claim Ignorance (happily) on > the science of Aluminum and it's contribution to Boiling wort/Fermenting beer. > Just looking for a simple answer. Whatddayathink? I'm looking for a good open > fermentor. > > I switched from the carboy 6 beers ago and am never going back. I never feel > like I get them clean enough. I'm always afraid of breaking it. My beers are > better since I switched. > > Thanks. I have no idea how far Jeff Renner is from me! > Jim Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:59:39 -0800 From: Dan Schultz <dschultz at primenet.com> Subject: Pronounciation of Willamette From: "John A. MacLaughlin" <jam at clark.net> >A recent visitor to the Pacific northwest tells me that the local >pronunciation of "Willamette" in that area is more like will-LAM-met >than the will-lam-ETTE I had expected. Can anyone verify this? You got it right John....will-LAM-met I don't know about "Willamette" but many geographical names up here are based on the settlers interpretation of the original American Indian names. Apparently, the early settlers didn't follow any English pronounciation rules that I know of when deciding on the spelling of the various names. Burp, -Dan Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:25:46 -0500 From: Danny Breidenbach <DBreidenbach at nctm.org> Subject: Re: Kraeusen pronunciation? Fred --- Was it old Stroh's commercials that talked about kraeusening? They said "KROY-sen." It must be true: I saw it on T.V. (And wasn't it Stroh's that made a big deal about being fire-brewed? As if gas flame versus electric heat makes a difference in anything other than production costs when the beer is ensconced in a giant boiler made of aluminum, copper, stainless, or some space-aged alloy.) - --Danny brewing in Ashburn, Virginia --- MUCH closer to Old Dominion Brewing Co. than to Jeff R. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:25:04 -0500 From: Peter.Perez at smed.com Subject: easy HLT with a sight glass You are probably familiar with the large stainless steel coffee dispensers that most of us have in the break rooms where we work. I just noticed we have some real nice large ones here where I work, with spigots on them, sight glasses, they are stainless, and they plug in to heat up water and maintain the temp. The ones here actually have thermostats on them. Seem like they would make awesome HLT's to me. Or even a mash tun if you rig a false bottom or something. Pete Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:27:13 -0800 From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com> Subject: bottoms for Mash Tun with Burner.... Greeting beer freinds.... This question is about using an EZMasher style (way to go JS on a great design!) thingy in the bottom of a converted keg kettle (sankey) VS. using a slotted circular manifold... Questions: do you get scorching? with either setup. I use a jet style propane burner, its an outdoor cooker, but i have no idea of the BTU output. if scorching is a problem, how big a problem is this, and how does it affect the beer? Burner question: It has a small square plate that can be swung over teh flame output. what is this supposed to be used for? Here are the manifold ideas i am thinking about. (comments?) 1. Easymasher style 2. Circular copper Manifold. (goes around the bottom of the sankey keg bottom) 3. 3 prong Easymasher style. 4. False bottom? (this is the least thought out, and least likely given my materials and skills at hand) Thanks in advance. *************************************************** Brander Roullett aka Badger Homepage: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger In the SCA: Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven "It had to be a linguistics professor who said that it's man's ability to use language that makes him the dominant species on the planet. That may be. But I think there's one other thing that separates us from animals. We aren't afraid of vacuum cleaners." --Jeff Stilson Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:37:26 -0800 From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com> Subject: pronounce -PNW Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:09:26 -0500 From: "John A. MacLaughlin" <jam at clark.net> Subject: Re: . . . pronounce . . . A recent visitor to the Pacific northwest tells me that the local pronunciation of "Willamette" in that area is more like will-LAM-met than the will-lam-ETTE I had expected. Can anyone verify this? Yup! thats how its pronounced around here. now, just for kicks try your hand at Puyallup. :) ********************************************* Brander Roullett aka Badger, Seattle, WA Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html Badgers Brewing Bookstore: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/brewbook.html Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:54:58 -0800 From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com> Subject: Wil-LAM-ette John A. MacLaughlin writes: <<< A recent visitor to the Pacific northwest tells me that the local pronunciation of "Willamette" in that area is more like will-LAM-met than the will-lam-ETTE I had expected. Can anyone verify this? >>> Take it from a 42 year resident: It is pronounced wil-LAM-ette. FWIW, one of the main hop research facilities in the country is Oregon State University, located in (you guessed it) the Willamette Valley. This also helps explain other Northwest hop names such as Mt. Hood, Cascade, and Chinook. (I don't know if OSU developed all of the above, but they had their hand in some of them.) (Also, FWIW, OSU beat U of O Saturday. Go Beavs.) Hans E. Hansen hansh at teleport.com 100 miles south of OSU Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:59:58 -0700 From: Ronald Babcock <rbabcock at rmii.com> Subject: re: Weizen Changing Character Ron West asked: RW> I am a new owner of a Cornelius kegging system. A little less than two RW> weeks ago I kegged my first batch (a weizen) in the Corny and stored it RW> at a stable 46 F. under 18 lb. of pressure to condition. After 4 days I RW> tried it and was immediately impressed by the wonderful banana and RW> clove-like characters of this beer. This is my first weizen, I've made RW> several other beers over the past year, always brown ales. Now, just RW> one week later I am wondering what happened to the banana and clove RW> notes? It is still a very nice drinkable beer, but the overall RW> character has changed seemingly overnight. If your Weizen had good banana and clove aroma to begin with, then your brewing and fermentation procedure should be fine. As you know a lot of the flavor profile comes from the yeast. (I assume you used 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen yeast or a similar Weihenstephen yeast) By kegging the beer instead of bottling you have no way of swirling the yeast sediment in the keg and even low flocculating 3068 will settle out over time. My solution to this problem is to install a SS carbonation stone (ie. the Carbonator) in the bottom of the keg with a suitable length of tubing to connect it to the "IN" side of the keg. Every time you dispense a beer co2 will create turbulence in the bottom of the keg via the SS carbonation stone. This will keep the yeast in suspension and maintain the flavor for a much longer period of time. This style of beer should be consumed in a short period of time. In my experience 8 weeks is the about the limit before noticeable flavor loss. Cheers, Ron Ronald Babcock - rbabcock at rmii.com - Denver, CO Home of the Backyard Brewery at http://shell.rmi.net/~rbabcock/ Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:40:58 +0000 From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu> Subject: yeast storage test/zima cloning First about making a zima clone. At Siebel Paul Smith was one of the people who helped develop zima and talked about it briefly. I then asked him more questions after class. Others have already posted in the past about the patented charcoal filtration. Paul could not give me specifics, so I asked him if I was taking the 10 week course and wanted to make a zima-like beverage on the pilot system how would I do it. I'll have to dig up my notes. but essentially one makes a coors light type beer (malt adjunct etc.) the meashing schedule should be extended along the lines of that used to make Super Dry beers. Because malt beverage by law has to have some hops they do add them. But the amount is ridiculously small (it's in my note some place) One then follows an industrial type lager fermentation profile. Then the stuff is carbon filtered to remove all color. Then an FDA apporved antifoam agent is added along with the appropriate flaovring agents. So that is all you need to do. On the subject of stroing yeast in water, I believe it was George DePiro who asked about the actual difference of water vs 2% pottasium monophophate as far as contamination potential. So I did a little experiment. First of all let me mention that all solutions were prepared using water from a Barnstead Nanopure pyrogen free water filatrion system. Many pulications have pointed out the importance of using very pure water in culture experiments and this may or may not apply to long term storage of yeast. One less variable. I prepared 12 tubes of sterile water and 12 tubes of 2% phosphate solution (made witht he same water). These tubes wer polystyrene tubes 12 mm in diamter and 75 mm high, presterilized. I put 0.5 ml of each solution into each tube. I then placed six of each set of tubes in racks in various places around two labs. 3 sets of tubes I put in a lminar flow hood as neg. controls. And 3 sets of tubes I coughed vigourously into as positive controls. I left the bench test samples and postive controls out for tow hours and left the negative controls in the hood 2 hours. At the end of this time I then placed all the tubes in the laminar flow hood and vortexed the contents to mix them. I then took 200 microliters from each tube and placed it into a tube of 2 ml YM broth and a tube of 2 ml of MRS. I then incuabeted the tubes at 30 C for one week. At that time none of the tubes showed any sign of growth so I left them for another two weeks just to be sure. As of today none of the samples shows any sign of growth including the positive controls. For future experiments the kinetics of the loss of viability of yeast stored in water and buffer should be studied. Was the loss seen an immediated effect or was it gradual over the 3 months? Also the experiment needs to be done using direct culture methods rather than staining. Jim Liddil Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:44:04 -0500 From: Herbert Bresler <bresler.7 at osu.edu> Subject: thermometer calibration (revisited) Hello everyone, I was thinking about my post and realized I left out an important detail. The detail is this: It is important to calibrate at more than one temperature. Usually, one calibrates a thermometer near both ends of the proposed use range. For brewing you'd calibrate at 95F/35C and 170F/77C, or thereabouts. Ideally you should also calibrate in the middle, or nearest your most critical temperature; for brewing, this will probably be about 154F/68C. If your thermometer reads correctly at all three of these temperatures, than you can rely on it to give you accurate readings for mashing. Good luck and good brewing, Herb Bexley (Columbus), Ohio Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:47:01 -0500 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: ALuminum open fermenter, Kraeusen pron. Brewsters, Jim at breadnale asks for comments on aluminum as an open fermenter. Like Jim, I prefer open fermenters for the ability to properly clean the fermenter and also to prevent yeast and protein splooge from pouring out through a hose which can become a problem in later batches since the hose is even harder to clean than the carboy. I have used the same plastic fermenter for years, since I can use straight bleach on it with abandon to clean it sparkling clean. I never use abrasives, just a paper towel with bleach on it ( rubber gloves). Aluminum as a fermenter suffers from the fact that you cannot use bleach on it since aluminum reacts with the caustic in bleach and it will corrode quickly. Aluminum is a soft metal and if you use abrasives, since you can't use bleach, then you will scratch the aluminum severely. Stick to plastic scrubbies or switch to a 6 gallon plastic garbage can as I did decades ago. - ----------------------------------- Fred Johnson asks how to pronounce Kraeusen. I say "kroysen" The "r" is pronounced in the back of the throat, softly and is not trilled. Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com Voice e-mail OK Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:29:32 -0800 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net> Subject: Regarding Lauter Tun Flow and Darcy's Law I apologize for throwing bait in the water and then seemingly walking away while you discussed it, but work has been incredibly busy here for the last several weeks. The discussions on fluid flow, Stokes Flow, Darcy Flow and tidal flow have been interesting and I have been following them, but have not chimed in because when it gets down to the small wet details, hydrology is not my area of expertise. But lately, a couple issues have surfaced that I can address . >From my perspective, we as homebrewers are striving toward a two pronged goal: 1. We want to lauter ALL the grain in the grainbed, and 2. We want to extract ALL of the sugar from the grain that we lauter. These two goals are independent of each other in many ways. With regard to the second goal, common sense has told us that slower is better and anecdotal evidence and some scientific brewing literature by Narziss seem to back that up. I wanted to address goal number 1 - How to reach the whole grainbed (without resorting to a false bottom). It was this goal that drove the theoretical investigation, yielding R^2=2H^2 and Q=VA. The experiments were conducted to verify this theory, and when they did not, that's when the Flow Potential model was constructed. How/Where the flow moved thru the bed became more important than how the flow moved in relation to the media (grain). In my opinion, Darcy and Reynolds Numbers may apply, but they do not help to predict what parts of the grainbed will receive X percentage of the total flow (Q). A homogeneous model is not realistic, but looked at from the other side, how Unrealistic is it? This is the sort of problem that engineers face all the time. We may not be able to model all of the conditions that affect the outcome, but we can determine that we have accounted for 90% of them and can ascertain whether the remaining variables are significant to predicting the outcome. In this case, the relative position of the drain(s) in the grainbed is the clearly the strongest factor in determining how well we lauter (ie. reach) all of the grain in the grainbed. The factors affecting how well we extract all of the sugar from that grain may indeed be more dependent on Darcy and Stokes. That is a question I will leave to you fluid-heads. Going back to the experimental results and the potential flow model, Guy Gregory used the MODFLOW software to move beyond what I could observe. His results are very interesting. Not only does modflow duplicate the observations, it is able to show additional information, such as the fact that a piping manifold will effectively draw (and lauter) from areas that lie beneath the manifold. This result in good news to those of us that use a manifold in the concave bottom of sankey kegs and have to make a compromise at the depth we collect versus the area we cover. Since this is his work, I will leave it to him to report on more fully. Isn't science fun? John Palmer House Brewery and Smithy http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ PS. the fluid flow study post is now up at my website, and as soon as I get some more time, I will append George De Piro's hbd post on false bottom design to the site, as it really complements the discussion. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:57:45 -0600 From: "Steinkamps" <EnW_Steinkamp at email.msn.com> Subject: Metalic flavor I've had a couple of batches of beer that had a distinct metallic flavor. The flavor would go away after about three weeks storage, or if the glass were let to 'breath' for about ten minutes prior to drinking. My last three batches did not have this flavor. Coincidentally, I ran out of scotch-brite pads about three batches ago. Since then I have been scrubbing the converted keg with a wash cloth. Considering this I am thinking that I may have been removing the oxidation layer from the keg with the gray scotch-brite. If this were the case, could it be that the wort was reacting with the stainless somehow to produce the metallic flavor? Or perhaps, I did not rinse sufficiently after cleaning and therefore was getting stainless steel oxide in my beer (ackkk!!). Or worse yet, is there a bacteria that could produce metallic flavors? I don't think this was bacterial simply because the flavor would go away with time, but then who knows? Thanks, Ed Steinkamp Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:37:19 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com> Subject: Rhymes with Dammit "John A. MacLaughlin" <jam at clark.net> said this here: >>> A recent visitor to the Pacific northwest tells me that the local pronunciation of "Willamette" in that area is more like will-LAM-met than the will-lam-ETTE I had expected. Can anyone verify this? <<< Yup. tim However far the Willamette River is from Jeff, that's how far I am. == Please ignore the advertisement below. Thank you. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
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