---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Medieval Malting (Badger Roullett)
  Welding Oxygen ("Colin K.")
  Tempering malt (kathy/jim)
  Re: Carbon Monoxide Blues (Brandon Brown)
  Milling, ("David R. Burley")
  Milling, Dry Counties, Thermometers (Dan Listermann)
  Prison Booze (Kim Thomson)
  Subject:  A tasting Question (michael w bardallis)
  Muddy Beer? (Badger)
  Re:  A tasting Question ("Jim Hodge")
  Maltmills, fixed vs. adjustable (Randy Ricchi)
  keg conversion questions (Randy Miner)
  No sparge data point ("Eric Fouch")
  Oxygenation ("C.D. Pritchard")


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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:14:11 -0800
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Medieval Malting

>>From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
>>Subject: Re: Badger's Medieval Ale Recipe
>>I'm sure midieval British Brewers used wood as well as peat to dry their
malt."

The research I have so far shows that yes they used wood, but they preferred
straw...

"In some places it is dried at leisure with wood alone, or straw alone, in
other with wood and straw together, but of all, the straw dried is the most
excellent.  For the wood dried malt, when it is brewed, beside that the
drink is higher of color, it doth hurt and annoy the head of him that is not
used thereto, because of the smoke."  
- -- William Harrison, A Description of England 1577.

Gervase Markham in his book "The English Housewife" originally published in
1615, he goes furthur into the details of the fuel that is best for drying
malt.  He points out that of the types of straw you can get, wheat straw is
the best, "because it is most substantial, longest lasting, makes the
sharpest fire, and yeilds the least flame." next in his eyes is rye, oat
straw, and last barley straw.  After straw Markham recomends the use of
dried long fen rushes, and makes a comment on smoke here as well, where he
recomends rushes as fuel.  "...for they make a very substantial fire, and
much lasting, neither are apt to much blazing, nor the smoke so sharp or
violent but may very well be endured..."

Next he goes on to recomend many other straws such as pease, bean, and the
like.  Only after all of these different fuels does he recomend the use of
wood as a fuel.  There apparently was the opinion that when an ale tasted
bad, the first thing to blame was "wood dried malt".

Peat was used, but it was probably not in common usage in england until
around the middle in 1600's.  Here is a passage from Markham to support my
theory..

"Now for coal of all kinds, turf or peat, they are not by any means to be
used under kilns, except where the furnaces are so subtly made, that the
smoke is conveyed a quite contrary way, and never cometh near the malt;  in
that case it skilleth not what fuel you use, so it be durable and cheap it
is fit for the purpose, only great regard must be had made for the
gentleness of the fire; for as the old proverb is 'soft fire make sweet
malt'..."

Later in the book he describes a new Kiln to roast malt in called the
"French Kiln" which has the virtues above, and recomends to all that they
embrace this new technology, and says its starting to be "common amoung us",
and he also describes a Kiln that is built into a chimney to use the heat of
the fire, but avoid the smoke.

I hope this helps..  I have found these two books to be of enourmous help in
researching Malting and Brewing in my chosen area of study.

*********************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger (Seattle, WA)
Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
Badgers Brewing Bookstore: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/brewbook.htm




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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:07:16 -0800
From: "Colin K." <colink at wenet.net>
Subject: Welding Oxygen

>And as far as the welding O2 goes, it's pure O2 like the Oxynator stuff
also ... but may have
>dirt and oil in it too, so it's not clean.

I am a student pilot and my instructor runs a glider port. They have the
concern of medical oxygen vs. welding oxygen for pilots breathing above
12,000ft. They have come to the conclusion there is no difference
between the two. They are processed the same. You pay more for the
medical oxygen because of the guarantee there is no water in it. But
they are made at the same time. Therefore my home glider port uses
welding oxygen for their planes. I have never noticed a off smell or
heard of any off smells or any regulator freezing (the biggest concern
for a pilot). I am told that small welding oxygen bottles at the
hardware store are the same as oxynator bottles with a different label
but have not checked that myself. Just my 2 cents.

Colin K.



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Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:39:05 -0500
From: kathy/jim <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Tempering malt

Jim Liddell writes about adding water to malt before milling.  I've
written HBD several times on this subject and want to reinforce Jim's
and Siebel's practice.

Flour millers temper their grain with water to toughen the bran and
reduce the bran particles in the fines.  Based on this, I add two
tablespoons of water per pound of malt stir it around and let it set a
half hour or so in a closed container.  

I have a sieve made of window screen  (size unknown) and testing the
fines of tempered malt vs untempered malt thru my Corona, the tempered
malt produces significantly more fines.  Visual inspection suggest
larger bran flakes.  More fines and larger bran particles is the desired
result of malt milling. 

More water than 2 T/lb produces a malt impossible to push thru my
Corona.  

Incidently,  I probably would have upgraded to an expensive mill except
that the tempered product thru the Corona mashed so well. 

Try tempering ....you'll like it.

cheers,  jim booth,  lansing, mi and 65 mi NW of brew brother Jeff.

PS  Hasn't anyone out there tried the SA Spring Ale "in the Kolesch
style". No responses so far. I wanna know if SA Spring Ale is as my 1991
outing to Koln and Koelsch was before I was brewing.  Then I expected
some wild exotic product from the buildup Koelsch had and I thot it
drank like a good American bar beer.  Dhhhhh!



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Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:38:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Brandon Brown <brandonbrown at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Carbon Monoxide Blues


On Wednesday Dec 16, Jeff Renner wrote about Carbon Monoxide monitors
and their use in brewing. I'll have to say from some experimental
procedures I used, he's exactly right!

When I bought my King Kooker from Cabella's I always wanted to brew in
the basement of a house I live in in Chicago. Putting the propane
stove underneath a window wasn't enough.  I wanted to make sure I
wouldn't kill us all, so I bought a CO monitor. Its a digital one with
PPM shown on the front and a peak button, to view the peak level of CO.

When all of the windows were closed in the basement, the biggest level
I could get was in the high 80s. Maybe my stove burns more
efficiently, but that was the best I could do.  Opening the window by
the stove helped, but the levels were above 50 when 1 burner was on.
If I opened a couple of windows at opposite ends of the basement, one
over the stove and the other across from it, it reduced it to below
28.  Only when I opened one window and mounted a window fan in the
window did I go below 10.  Actually during the entire wort boil, I was
never above 5.

It's nice to know that the furnace is working correctly also.....

Brandon

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:45:21 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Milling,


Brewsters:

Jim Liddil says that milling has been discussed more than other topics 
and
like him, I do not wish to re-start a subject that has been beaten to
death.
However, his comment about "wetting" the grain before milling  may be
misleading to some readers and I would like to clarify this a little as
both
wet and dry milling is used commercially.

"Tempering" is the term used when dry millers apply a very small
amount ( like 1%) of water  sprayed and stirred into malt and allow
it to sit for several hours.  The water reduces the brittleness of the
husk, so as to minimize the breakage of the husk and probably reduces
the amount of flour generation during milling. I have on occasion
used this technique when milling barley in an attempt to soften it
 but I would recommend an alternate technique for the tough
unmalted barley and that is to cook it in the  husk in three times
the water as barley by volume and  allow it to swell for a few
hours ( overnight usually) and then "wet mill" it in the blender.
Commercial wet milling often uses rolls after the malt has been steeped.

Jim is exactly correct that professional multiroll dry mills use screens
to control feedback and short circuit between rolls. However, in my
own experience, not a theoretical argument, husk breakage is not a
problem of any great degree using the technique I outlined, since I
mill at a large mill nip at first to largely crack the malt grain and the

dehusk it.  The freed husks do not become significantly smaller on
the second pass  because they are so thin and the nip is only 0.060 in
 and perhaps because my little mill is less efficient than the giant
rollers in a professional brewery. Breweries often continue on to
0.012-0.014 in. nip , depending on the physical arrangement of the
lauter, so in this case it is possible that the husks could get milled.
Point is, when I do it the way I outlined, I get good extraction
efficiency and easy lautering.  



Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 11:18:23 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Milling, Dry Counties, Thermometers

Jim Liddil writes: By passing all the grain through a mill multiple times

one is subjecting all the husks and endosperm to the rollers multiple
times.  Yes one can
achieve the same size distribution but the make up of the size 
distribution
will be different from a multiple pass technique vs a true 6 roller mill.

Particularly in the small screen sizes one will see more husk material in

the multipass technique. >

Try as I might, using several different kinds of mills - including an 
eight
inch diameter roller mill,- eventually employing screens between passes 
and
a variety of gaps ( in desperation I resorted to "design of expriement"
methods to determine the gaps)  I have never come close to duplicating 
the
specs outlined by the Practical Brewer.  Further, the more that I moved
into the direction of the Practical Brewer, the less desirable the grist
appeared - even with the eight inch mill and screening between passes.

 I seriously doubt that one can come close to the same size distribution 
of
a six roll as outlined in the Practical Brewer by any number of passes 
with
any homebrew mill even using screens between passes.   I would even like 
to
see a commercial six roll mill attempt it.

Jack Schmidling reminded me of the year that I lived in Danville, 
Kentucky.
 At the time I lived there ( 21 years ago - I haven't been back ),
Danville, Boyle County and all the counties surrounding Boyle County were

dry.  The stories I could tell.  There wasn't a legal beer in thirty-five

miles in any direction.  I was the JCs "Liquor Chairman."  It was my job 
to
drive to Richmond every other week to purchase about five cases of beer 
to
sell at the JCs meetings.  I would sell the beer openly at restaurants
where the meetings were held to anybody who was a JC, including the 
county
prosecutor and state troopers.  We had a "wet-dry"election that year.  To

read the papers, we were going to have painted ladies lying in all the
gutters.  They voted it down 2 to 1.  


Timo Peters writes: the temperatures will be checked with two or three
thermometers before the mashing procedure to be sure that temp. readings
are okay>

This reminds me of a saying that goes like this: A man with one watch 
knows
what time it is; a man with two watches is never sure.

Dan Listermann    dan at listermann.com

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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:22:51 -0600
From: Kim Thomson <alabrew at mindspring.com>
Subject: Prison Booze

"Prison Plot to Make Booze Goes Sour:

When not working here at the shop, I work for the Alabama Department of
Corrections.  As a matter of fact, it was an old convict that told me
how to make "homebrew" like he did during prohibition - 1 can of
Premier, 10 lb. of sugar, 5 packs of Fleichmans to make 10 gal.  Good
thing I found a good homebrew shop to set me straight (Thanks to Hunter
Bell at the now closed Birmingham Homebrew).

Convicts here have been making "julip" (as it is known here) for as long
as anyone can remember.  Today the normal recipe is Kool-Aid and all the
fruit and yeast they can steal from the kitchen.  It is a rather nasty,
foul smelling brew that they hide in all sorts of places - most popular
is in a bleach bottle hanging from a cord in a pipe chase.  The pipe
chase is between two 2 man cells so the owner can not be determined
without someone claiming it (not likely since it could lead to lock-up
time).

In 15 years, I've never seen anyone get sick from the brew - have seen
people stabbed over it, not sick from it.

Kim Thomson
- --
ALA-BREW
Homebrewing Supplies
Birmingham, AL
http://www.mindspring.com/~alabrew/
Full Service Home Beer And Wine Brewing Supply






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Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:31:57 -0500
From: dbgrowler at juno.com (michael w bardallis)
Subject: Subject:  A tasting Question

John Adsit sez:

"I started with a brown ale, and immediately felt
something was very wrong.  It was overly hoppy, and I thought it was
cascade I was tasting.  It tasted like SNPA with a LITTLE chocolate
malt."

"If not, what does their stout taste like SNPA with a tan?

Or were my taste buds numbed by the fine Bass experience preceding it?"

John,

Finishing hops are considered OK/optional by many in American stouts and
brown ales. My preference is to go very easy or leave them out entirely,
especially in stouts. Sierra Nevada Stout, with noticeable hop presence,
is quite welcome in my glass, however!

The fact is, ANY beer sampled after Bass "IPA" (no kidding, check the
tiny letters on the label,) is going to seem pretty hoppy. It's pretty
wimpy in every dimension. I think the reputation as a representative beer
has a lot to do with its wide availability well in advance of many more
flavorful beers available nowadays; said availability owing mainly to,
I'm certain, its inoffensiveness to the average American palate.

Mike Bardallis
wishing vainly for snow in
Allen Park, MI
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:07:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Badger <badger at nwlink.com>
Subject: Muddy Beer?


I just checked the keg of beer i had ready for the wedding of my friend.
The beer came out of the tap, thick, brown, and opaque.  very upsetting.
it looks like chocolate milk.  tastes like beer.  but looks like crap.  i
pulled about 6 pints, no change.  it had some wheat malt, and mostly
extract based, with a pound of crystal steeped.  fermented 1-2 weeks with
Nottingham
ale yeast, and then kegged.  stuck on the back porch to chill, and
carbonate.  i put it on at ~20psi for a couple of days.  its not over
carbonated, just icky looking.

does this lame-o description hint at anything?  can someone help me figure
this out?  I have no idea what happened.

Badger

**************************************************
Brander (Badger) Roullett  email:badger at nwlink.com
Homepage: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger

SCA: Frederick Badger, AoA, Light of St. Bunstable, Green Leaf
Squire to Viscount Sir Nicholaus Barchatov
Pursuivant At Large, Senior Marshal



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Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 20:31:07 -0600
From: "Jim Hodge" <jdhodge at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re:  A tasting Question

John,

I think the point is:  Did you like the beer?  If you didn't, don't go back
there and tell your friends not to patronize the place.  The brewer/owner
will get the message eventually.  Brewpubs and microbreweries are not
constrained by BJCP guidelines.  If they can make a beer and sell it,
regardless of the recipe or its fitting a particular style, then, from their
perspective, their mission is accomplished.  If they can't sell it, then
they will change or go out of business.  This is one of the great
accomplishments of the American micro revolution.....anything goes.  Of
course, not everything works, but when it does, life is interesting for both
the brewers and the consumers.

To paraphrase Voltaire:  I disagree completely with your recipe, but I will
defend to the death your right to brew it.

Jim 'One time zone away from Jeff Renner' Hodge



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Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 23:06:36 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Maltmills, fixed vs. adjustable

John Wilkinson stated in Saturday's HBD: 

"Actually, I find I never adjust the gap now that I have found the one that
seems to work best."

This is exactly why I believe their is no need for an adjustable Schmidling
Maltmill. The fixed Maltmill is adjusted beautifully, and I don't need to
worry and fuss over the setting on my mill because I can't. IT'S FIXED!!!

It's human nature to dink around with stuff like maltmill adjustments if
you're given the opportunity. I think that's why some people like
adjustable mills; they think they're going to find some perfect setting
that's never been discovered before. The fixed Maltmill setting, in my
opinion, is already there.  If you need to improve your extraction
efficiency, work on your sparging technique, or your water chemistry.




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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:15:44 -0500
From: Randy Miner <randyminer at mpinet.net>
Subject: keg conversion questions

Hi,

I have read of several people drilling and threading their sankey and
screwing a pipe nipple right in with some teflon tape, with good results.
I have some 1/2" ball valves nipples, etc. I don't know the size of the
threads though.  When I say 1/2" NPT does it refer to the thread on a
fitting with a 1/2" id, where the thread diameter is actually larger?  This
is what is confusing me.  I need to know so that I can try to find the
right size tap.  Can anyone tell me if a national course thread tap of the
appropriate diameter will work with pipe thread, and also a source to buy
the tap, such as Grainger or other?  I have seen some taps specified as
national pipe thread in some craftsman sets, but they are small diam. and
the sets are $$$.  I know I could go the route of a bulkhead type with some
teflon washers, etc. but I like the idea of threading the keg directly.

I have some borosillicate (sp?) glass for sight tubes also, but am not
exactly sure how I am going to mount them to the keg.  Anyone have any
experience with it?  I know where I can get milky colored teflon tubing,
but want to try this glass first.

I would also like to improve the surface finish of the keg.  The inside has
some stain/discoloration from something, and the outside is beat up, dirty
and not shiny/reflective.  I have read in a jewelry making book (Jewelry
Concepts and Technology, by Oppi Untracht) that a Hydrochloric acid pickle
can be used to remove oxidation.  I have tried various polishes with little
success.

My three-tier is coming along slowly but surely.  People laugh when I tell
them I want thermometers for Christmas...

TIA
"drink better beer"
Randy

       _______________________________________________
______|                 Randy Miner                   |_____
 \    |         randyminer at mpinet.net (home)          |    /
  \   |                                               |   /
  /   |      http://home.mpinet.net/randyminer/       |   \
 /    |_______________________________________________|    \
/________)                                          (_______\




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Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:51:33 -0500
From: "Eric Fouch" <fouches at iserv.net>
Subject: No sparge data point

Kyle mused:
"
I did my first no-sparge brew tonight and here are the results:

 -61% efficiency from theoretical maximum yield
 -1.64 qts/lb in the mash (1.33 qts/lb during conversion, then added 1
gallon during mashout)
 -1.34 grain scale up factor

I am not sure how this will affect the final taste of the beer, but I am
hoping for the best.
"
I do this all the time.
It should taste like butt.

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood MI


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Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:06:55
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: Oxygenation

Brain posted:

>If shaking the carboy, it seems the best method was laying it horizontally
>across your knees and rocking it back and forth to make "ocean waves"...

I wouldn't try this- the walls of a glass carboy are surprising thin and
knees/legs are easily cut by any resulting glass shards.  YM (and risk
tolerance) MV.  

>And as far as the welding O2 goes, it's pure O2 like the Oxynator stuff
>also but may have dirt and oil in it too, so it's not clean.  You may
>consider doing it anyway, but use a 2-micron inline filter between the O2
>bottle and your wort.  

Dirt, maybe; oil, never.  Well, maybe for a few microseconds before the
very rapid exothermic reaction between the two consumes the oil.  

Just some SWAGs: if one flushes the O2 regulator (i.e. high flow of O2)
before using it for oxygenation, dirt is likely not a consideration.  Since
100% O2 is a rather hostile enviroment, I don't think many wort damaging
microbes would survive in the cylinder or high pressure side of the
regulator.  I use a Berzomatic O2 cylinder and the regulator from their
small torch outfit for oxygenation without problem.


c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/   (homebrewing stuff)



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---