---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  re: GFCI (John_E_Schnupp)
  Re: Head retention on stout (John Coulter)
  brew kettles from 'Beer, Beer, & More Beer' (patrick finerty)
  Oh, now I get it... (ThomasM923)
  No infection (ThomasM923)
  Re: George De Piro's comments on "Kelly's stuck lager..." (Steve)
  Re: Bottling bucket necessary? (Steve)
  Mississippi Gulf Coast craft beers? (Overstreet)
  GFCI's and bonding (fridge)
  Fermentation question (larson.jt)
  Re: Bottling bucket necessary? (Jeff Renner)
  Bleach pH (AJ)
  Gibberellic Acid (David Whitman)
  Re: Ipswich (John Murphy)
  Re: Response to St. Pats ("Doug Evans")
  Re: beer bullets (Jim DiPalma)
  Re: Too cold Lagering (The Brews Traveler)
  Changes at Sierra Nevada? (LLOM)" <LLOM at chevron.com>
  False Bottom ("Eric Schoville")
  Bottling buckets and secondaries / wheat as an adjunct ("George De Piro")
  fermenting under pressure (Jon Sandlin)
  Organic Malt ("Alan McKay")
  Miracles never cease! ("Alan McKay")
  Spruce Beer ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  Stuck fermentation...? ("Riedel, Dave")
  RE: GF whatever (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Fw: Re: Pressure and fermentation. (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  use of copper in brewing (Ryan McCammon)
  More bottling questions ("Gregory M. Remake")
  Re: GFCI - Page down if you please ("Mark Riley")
  Gibb (Kyle Druey)
  Sanitation Again ("Darren Robey")
  Cleaning Corney pressure release valves. ("Michael Maag")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:41:04 -0800
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: GFCI

I got a reply today and wanted to post my response.  It's
not specifically beer related, but in that it is a response
to a very real electrical safety concern, I think that I
should post it.  After all I'll bet that every homebrewery
has at least some electrical equipment, and some of the
RIMS and plastic pail brewers use electricity almost
exclusively.

>an industrial electrician by trade.  The only thing I can think
I work in field service in semiconductor manufacturing equipment.
I work with everything from 5VDC to 480VAC.  Voltages inside
individual components can exceed several kVAC (ion implanters
microwave generators and RF generators).  I also work with the
whole range of super nasty, kill you with a whif arsine, to the
more friendly nitrogen (which can kill you if you are in an
enclosed area with no oxygen supply).  Some of the robotics
used on some of the equipment can injure too.  There's
vacuum (high and low), pressurized gases and liquids,
high and low temps (1200 degC to 10 degK).  In fact, just the
other day we had a quartz chamber implode.  Is was running
about 15 liters/min HCl, 10 liters/min H2 at 660 Torr (almost
atmospheric pressure) at 1200 degC.  Talk about a hazard, and
that's just due to the gas and temperature, not to say anything
about all the broken quartz.  Could have been worse, had it
been at a lower pressure and the force of the implosion would have
sent the quartz shards really flying.  Oh, yeah, I forgot all
the nasty liquid chemicals like HF and H2O2, for example.  Then
there's all those weird by-products (that they don't even know what
they do to ya') and chemical interactions.

My point, just wanted to give you a little background on
where I'm coming from.  Maybe this explains my concern for
safety.  In my job what you don't know really can kill you.

>Isn't death more likely under rather extreme circumstances?  Not that
Not really.  I can't find the booklet we got in out live electrical
training class, but I do believe it's in the range of 100-500 mA that
will kill.  It takes even less to start heart fibrillation, which
is serious enough to cause death if a regular heartbeat is not
re-established.  Granted a lot depends upon the current path but
most times it's not in one finger and out the one next to is.
It's more likely that the path is thru one had to the other or
thru a hand to a foot, both of which basically place the heart
right smack dab in the middle.  But wait you say, doesn't the
current flow mostly on the skin?  Actually the skin is less
conductive than the electro-chemical soup inside the skin, and
60 Hz penetrates skin much more easily than the 50 Hz that is
used in most of the rest of the world.

Here's a quick question.  What special tools are needed to work
on a live electrical circuit?

>I want to stick my tongue in a wall socket, but my step-father is an
>electrician, and I've *seen* him look for live wires by touching
>them bare-handed!  "Yup!  That's it!"
The correct way to look for live wires is with a VOM.  (answer to
above question, once you have determined the problem using the meter,
you should use lock out tag out procedures and turn the power off)
If you really need to get the adrenaline rush then make sure you use the
back side of your hand/fingers or a very fast swiping motion.  Your
muscles work by electrical impulses from your brain.  They constrict
when activated.  the signal input from a live wire will over ride the
signal from your brain (by the virtue of being stronger) and cause your
muscles to contract.  If you use the palm side of your hand the resulting
action will be a clenching of the hand into a fist.  Using the back of the
hand caused the fingers to be "automatically" removed then the hand
clenches.  When using a rapid swiping motion, hopefully, the momentum
of your hand/arm will be sufficient to carry your hand away from the
electrical device.

me> eyes will explode right out of their sockets.
>Urban legend.  The jury is out whether or not it even happens to those
>sentenced to die that way, where the exposure is very long and the
<snip>
>Exactly.  The liquid in your eyes is miniscule at best compared to the
>rest of your body.  You'd have to heat the whole thing up, the eyes
>don't just volunteer to be heated first.  As liquid water doesn't
>expand or contract much, the liquid in the eyes would have to literally
>boil, rather than simply heat up, for this to be true.  You'd be long
>dead before any liquid in your body boiled.
Ok I'll give you that one.  I was just repeating something that was
told to me in a safety class here at work.  Looks like I'm guilty if
keeping an urban myth going.

me> even by a little bit and the pressure on the eyeball increases
dramatically
me> according to PV=nrT.
>If'n I remember my freshman chem correctly (I probably don't!), poovnert
>applies only to gases (?)  I thought Bernoulli did liquids (When the
>velocity of water goes up, the pressure exerted actually goes *down*.
>That is, if one were to neck a 6" pipe down to 4" and run water through
>it, the pressure on the 4" pipe will be lower than in the 6".  Believe
>it or don't!).
PV=nrT relates pressure, volume and temperature.  I do believe that this
relationship is true for solid, liquid or gas.  Your example is
relating velocity and pressure, and I yes I do believe it, but I think
it was Venturi who discovered this.  Maybe Venturi did it for gases and
Bernoulli did it for liquids.  My carburetor on my Harley operates on
this effect.  The throat of the carb is tapered (large to smaller).  As
the air flows thru it, it passes by a hole which creates lower pressure
in the narrow portion of the carb throat.  This reduced pressure lifts
a needle out of a hole and allows gas to be "sucked" into the air stream.

me> Electricity really is take way too lightly by>> way too many people.
>Agreed!
On this point we agree.  The real problem is the most people are
ignorant about electricity.  It is the ignorance that breeds complacency.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:43:28 +1100
From: John Coulter <jac at mira.net>
Subject: Re: Head retention on stout

Jim Kingsberg asks about improving head retention on stout/ales.  I
posted on this  last year and got some helpful replies which I'll
summarize.

One said forget brewing extract and go to all-grain. Another said
brewing with extract is fine and take no notice if anyone says
otherwise.

Another said try bottled water.(which I haven't done yet)

Others talked of the importance of mashing in any flaked barley (which I
do but more for taste/clarity reasons as it hasn't made much difference
to the heading properties).

Another reply referred to some articles in Brewing Techniques about
nitrogenating  beer and stout (www.beertown.org/indexframeset.htm then
choose the letter N from the list and scroll untill you see the Nov/Dec
1997 issue and select it.)

These articles were very helpful. I make a guinness style stout, using
light extract and added grains (roasted and flaked barley etc) and keg
the results with a N/CO2 mix.

After reading the articles I purchased a carbonation stone which I used
to nitrogenate the stout and found that it made a significant difference
to the head retention. I had lots more tiny bubbles dissolved in the
brew which helped keep the head alive after pouring. Before using the
stone I could still pour a perfect creamy head but it didn't last long
enough. Now it will outlast a can of imported Guinness with the widget.
I'm convinced there's more nitorgen dissolving in the stout than
previously with my static nitrogenation( apply pressure and leave for a
few days like I do with my beer).

Maybe there's other ways to get the same result but this one worked for
me.

John Coulter
Melbourne, Australia
(80 degrees warmer than wherever Jeff Renner lives)




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Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:50:45 -0500 (EST)
From: patrick finerty <zinc at zifi.psf.sickkids.on.ca>
Subject: brew kettles from 'Beer, Beer, & More Beer' 

hi folks,

i'm going to move to all grain brewing and am looking for a 14-15 gal
brew kettle. there's one for sale over at
http://www.morebeer.com/brewequip.html for $145, which seems like a
pretty good deal.

does anyone have an opinion about these kettles? the web page doesn't
provide any info about the type of stainless used to construct the
kettle. 

 -pjf


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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:42:43 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: Oh, now I get it...

Thanks to all who replied with definitions of the terms "beer bullets" and
"momily".
I actually have a beer bullet, but didn't know what to call it up until now. 
My wife used to grumble every time she saw the brewing stuff come up from the
basement. Louder grumbling when the brewing smells filled the house. Then one
day I won a couple of awards in a competition. One prize was a gift
certificate for a brewpub in NYC. When I told my wife, she looked
astonished...

- -----------"You mean you can WIN stuff?!!"-------------

Well, that made the rest of the brewing season go a little smoother...

Thanks again to all,
Thomas Murray
Maplewood, NJ


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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 01:04:21 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: No infection

In HBD #2942 Vernon R Land <vland1 at juno.com> wrote:

"1) Hairy arm inserted into cooled wort up to armpit prior to start of
fermentation looking for rubber thingy - no infection"

Just what kind of rubber thingy would be so important to make you do that?
Sheesh! ;~)

Thomas Murray
Maplewood, NJ


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Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:04:42 -0500
From: Steve <steves at ro.com>
Subject: Re: George De Piro's comments on "Kelly's stuck lager..."

George De Piro writes in HBD #2942:
"2.  You mention that the high-gravity batch was relatively free of
     break material while the other was not.  Break can serve as both a
     yeast nutrient and a CO2 nucleation site.  Too much CO2 does inhibit
     fermentation.  Agitating the carboy twice per day may release enough
     CO2 to allow the ferment to finish.  Good beer can be made this way
     (I've done it, as have many others)."

I've read in various sources about "rousting the yeast" by agitating the
carboy after the airlock has quieted down, but the specific gravity hasn't
dropped as much as expected or hoped for. My thought when reading George's
post was that the symptom, treatment, and effect are the same regardless of
either cause ("too much CO2" or tired/lazy/slacker yeasties). In the past,
I've tried the "swirl the carboy base on a tennis ball while holding the
carboy neck semi-stationary" method with uncertain results (lacking a twin
control batch). I'm guessing that George (help me here, please) would
agitate the almost-beer without fear of oxidation 'cause there shouldn't be
much O2 in the headspace, while the "yeaster roustabouts" would be
attempting to re-suspend the whole yeast cake so that the kids who were
stuck on the bottom could get some more food.

I will covet the comments of the congregation and choir.

Steve Stripling
Huntsville, AL


OK, I'm sneaking a second question in, but it's concerning the same quote.
Do the sweet, precious little yeasties get more/better/different nutrition
from hot break or cold break? Reason I axt is 'cause while I was (oh, man,
two brews and I lapse into vernacular) typing the first question, I was
also trying my first starter wort pressure-canning 'speriment and noticed
there was some break material in the bottom of the Mason jars before they
cooled enough to touch. (I can't see this effect at the end of the boil in
my kettle, so until now it was just theoretical.) Since I use an immersion
chiller on brew day, I combine both hot and cold break in the pot. Swirling
would mix these more completely, so I don't. I usually try to rack out only
a bit of the break from the top (based on references similar to George's
"yeast nutrient" comment). OK, for those of you who forgot the question (me
too), it's the second sentence of this paragraph.

Again coveting comments.

- ---------------------------------




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Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:05:35 -0500
From: Steve <steves at ro.com>
Subject: Re: Bottling bucket necessary?

Jeff Renner comments on bottling in HBD #2942:

>"Gregory M. Remake" <gremake at gsbalum.uchicago.edu> asks:

>I've always racked my wort from the secondary carboy to a bottling bucket
>for bottling.  Is this step necessary?

and lists the advantages he forsees and asks for disadvantages.

One good thing about racking once more is that you can bottle with a lot
less yeast carryover.  When I bottled, I would fine with gelatin in the
secondary, which gave me nearly crystal clear beer (usually ales) over a
firm yeast sediment.  I managed to have no more yeast in the bottle than
the thickness of a coat of paint.  Aesthetically pleasing.  Gives a clear
glass of beer with no careful decanting.

Jeff
(end of quote)

Question: How do we know that we have enough sexy yeast getting into the
priming vessel? I usually let the beer hang in secondary till it drops
fairly clear (2-3 weeks at 66-72F for ales) and rack off, trying to miss
the cake. Then wait at least three weeks after bottling to test the first
one. My timing is based on the confidence that the yeast know what they're
doing. But just like some of the rest of us, managers (that would be me in
this case) don't let us do our job properly. Rules of thumb work about 75%
in my case. So, how do we know?

Steve Stripling
Huntsville, AL






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Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 05:21:57 -0600
From: Overstreet <wa5dxp at acadiacom.net>
Subject: Mississippi Gulf Coast craft beers?

Would anyone in the Bay St. Louis, Waveland, Pass Christian area
know of any restaurants/watering holes that have a good selection of
imported/craft beers, preferably on tap?  (No casinos please.)
Any chance of finding a brewpub?  Is this the beer wasteland others
have described, or is there a neat little gem hidden among the
skunked Heineken and Bud-Miller-Coors?  
Any homebrew clubs or stores in the area?  Any leads appreciated.

P.S. They need not be legal.... :)

Jim Overstreet
Buzzard's Roost Nano-Brewery
wa5dxp at acadiacom.net


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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:09:17 -0500
From: fridge at kalamazoo.net
Subject: GFCI's and bonding

Greetings folks,

 In HBD#2943, Wayne Holder writes a followup to his GFCI post that 
seems to have stirred things up a bit.

 At first glance I took his message to be just a troll, but I've spent 
quite a bit of time surfing his web site over the past year, and I know 
he works for an electrical contractor who specializes in industrial 
controls (among other things). He seems to know his stuff. His site 
includes several interesting and entertaining brewing-related 
devices, including a very creative and sophisticated RIMS.

 I'd like to welcome Wayne to this forum. I feel he could be a 
valuable resource to us and I look forward to future posts from him. 
Until then, check out his web site for some great info.
	http://andinator.com/zymico

 By the way...I absolutely agree with him on the importance of 
proper bonding! 

Hope this helps!
- ----------------------------------------------
Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at kalamazoo.net
The FridgeGuy is now online! Check out http://www.hbd.org/fridgeguy


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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:30:37 -0500
From: larson.jt at pg.com
Subject: Fermentation question

Suddenly, my fermentations seem to be taking a really long time.  I ferment
in the basement, where temperatures stay 65-68f, and my secondary has gone
from a historical 1 week to 4 weeks+.  My last two batches will not stop
bubbling (not a ton; maybe on bubble through the airlock every 2-3
minutes).  In the past, all pressure and activity would subside within 7-10
days.  Is this a sign of infection?  Should I cool them down to halt
activity?  The only change to my process for the last two batches is a
switch to a converted keg brew kettle and full 5 gallon boils.  Cooling
occurs quickly with an immersion chiller.  Does this observation signal a
problem or does everything sound ok?  (these are partial-mash ales with
Irish or British Wyeast and I have historically not taken gravity readings)

On a seperate note, I am having trouble maintaining a good siphon coming
from the brew pot.  On the inside, I use 3/8" copper tube to extend down
from the ball valve to a screen system on the bottom.  To maintain a
siphon, I use a piece of 1/2" clear tubing on the outside that gets too
flexible when siphoning sparge or mash water to a cooler (it bends and
kinks).  Is there a better alternative that is flexible enough to get a
good siphon going, but firm enough to handle easily when hot?

All input is greatly appreciated.

Todd Larson
larson.jt at pg.com




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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:48:30 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Bottling bucket necessary?

In HBD 2943, "Christopher Tkach" <tkach at mediaone.net> asks of me:

>Just a quick question... Do you find it takes longer to bottle condition
>when you fine w/ gelatin? Approx. how long?

I've never done a side by side comparison, so I can't say.  I almost never
bottle anymore, but I don't recall ever waiting more than 10 days to 2
weeks.  There is plenty of yeast suspended in visually clear beer to get
the job done, although I generally managed to disturb the sedimented yeast
in the secondary with the racking cane enough to transfer a little
sedimented yeast, too.

When judging, I am often amazed at the thick layer of fluffy yeast on the
bottom of bottles, making it difficult to pour a clear beer, especially if,
as is often the case, it is highly carbonated and the evolving fizz stirs
up the yeast.  With a little patience, it is easy to greatly reduce the
yeast.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:48:49 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Bleach pH

John McLeod's suggestion that people not acidify bleach solutions should
generally be adhered to but I'll stick to my assertion that
acidification can be done quite safely if care is used. In the Jan 15
post I guessed that an ounce of 5 trade percent (typical household
strength) bleach in a gallon of water should give a pH of about 9.
Experimentation confirms this, with my water at least (pH approximately
6, alkalinity about 80). I measure 8.95. At this pH at 25C  only 3% of
the hypochlorite is in the desireable (bug slaying) hypochlorous acid
(HOCl) form, the rest being hypochlorite ion (OCl-). Thus though one has
about 350 ppm chlorine at this dilution only 10 ppm are in the most
lethal form. Lowering the pH to 7 with a little acid will increase the
percentage of HOCL to 80%, to pH 6, 97% and though there is little
point in going lower pH 5 gets you to 99.7%. The effect of this on the
bugs can be judged from the Ct values I posted on Jan 15.

Dilute solutions like this seem to be capable of acidification to pH 3
or less before disproportionation takes place (chlorine bubbles form).
Perhaps I was not clear that the pH adjustment must be done after
dilution. With stronger solutions, it's a different matter. The
country's worst water plant chlorine release occured when a truck driver
accidentally dumped ferric chloride (an acid salt) into a hypochlorite
tank resulting in a precipitous drop in pH to 5 and the sudden release
of 12,000 pounds of chlorine gas [White, "Handbook of Chlorination and
Alternative Disinfectants" Wiley, N.Y. 1999 p113]. You can reproduce
this event in miniature in your kitchen by adding hardware store
strength (8 N) hydrochloric acid to full strength household bleach.
Don't do it!



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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:49:22 -0500
From: David Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: Gibberellic Acid

Cliff Moore is having trouble dissolving the gibberellic acid he bought for
malting experiments.  I don't know enough biology to advise how to use the
stuff on seeds, but I can help get it in solution.  

>From the Merck Index, 11th Edition:
>>>>
Gibberellic Acid
 ...Slightly soluble in water, ether.  Freely soluble in methanol, ethanol,
acetone.  Moderately soluble in ethyl acetate.  Soluble in aqueous
solutions of sodium bicarbonate and sodium acetate.
>>>>

That last line is the approach I'd take.  Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda)
is cheap and non-toxic.  Make up a stock solution of 5% or so baking soda,
and use that as your solvent.  Your serial dilution approach makes perfect
sense if you don't have access to an analytical balance good enough to do a
direct weighing.

I wouldn't use a strongly basic (or acidic) solution to dissolve
gibberellic acid; try to keep pH between 5 and 9.  There's a lactone ring
on there that could get hydrolyzed and a couple other sites on the molecule
that look like prime rearrangement candidates. (No direct knowlege of about
stability here; just chemical intuition when looking at the structure).


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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:55:57 -0500
From: John Murphy <jbm at ll.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Ipswich

Joe Rolfe (rolfe at sky.sky.com) writes:

>Ips Brewing it is a rumor on the street, Mass Bay (Harpoon)
>has bought the labels.

According to the the latest issue of Ale Street News, talks
between Ipswich and Mass Bay (Harpoon) died when US Beverage
heard about the Harpoon/Ipswich discussions and offered
Ipswich a sweeter deal (not sure if it's a done deal yet).
US Beverages currently does sales & marketing for Ipswich.
Sounds like US Beverages will sink money into the brewery
for exchange of some label ownership.



John Murphy
jbm at ll.mit.edu




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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:03:05 -0500
From: "Doug Evans" <Devans at greenapple.com>
Subject: Re: Response to St. Pats


>Subject: Re: Response to St. Pats
>response.  Apparently there is an email problem somewhere.  I bring this up
>only to point out to those having a problem that there may be a technical
>glitch somewhere that is not apparent.  Things could be resolved a little
>easier if she had a toll free number.


How would that help?  Quite frankly those 800 numbers are expensive.  I've
seen St. Pats prices and folks let me tell you, As I am starting my own
homebrew business, St. Pats does not have a lot of mark-up on its products.
the key to her business is low overhead.  an 800 number would add to it.  Is
it really going to break you to pick up the phone and pay a dollar or two to
resolve a problem?

Doug Evans
VinBrew Supply
Carroll, Ohio
(740)756-4314
Devans at Greenapple.com




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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:12:10 -0500 
From: Jim DiPalma <dipalma at omtool.com>
Subject: Re: beer bullets

Hi All,

In HBD#2942, Jeff Renner writes of my blushing bride:

>Mrs. DiPalma to girlfriends over tall latte at the mall:
>
>"You know that stuff doesn't really smell that bad, but I carry on
about it

Funny thing about that. I'll have a kettle full of IPA or bitter at full
boil, the aroma of EKG and Fuggles filling the garage, and as she runs
past holding her nose, she'll make one of her few comments about my
brewing that's repeatable in a public forum: "Pheeew, that really
stinks!". Three weeks later, the *exact same beer* is in a pint glass,
and she's got her nose in up to the hilt saying, "ahhh, great hop
aroma".

Non-brewers....go figure!

Cheers,
Jim, considerably to the 'right' of Jeff Renner, geographically
speaking.


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Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 07:13:11 -0700
From: The Brews Traveler <BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com>
Subject: Re: Too cold Lagering

I once found out by accident and the beer turned out to be one of my
best (funny have some of your best brews are totally unreproducable).

I brewed a Rauchbier and was awaiting delivery of a new chest freezer,
with the addition of a Johnson temp. controller, was to be my beer
fridge.

Expecting a speedy delivery I brewed the beer and let it sit at basement
temps (~60) for a couple of days.  With the freezer nowhere in site I
iced it down to ~45 where it sat for a couple more days (where is that
delivery guy???).  The freezer arrived and I hooked up the control, and
set it to 45, and put the (glass) carboy inside.  

It appeared that the (new) controller wasn't behaving well since the
temperature appeared to be rising and falling too much but being a
trusting person I cranked it down to 35.

The next morning I awoke to check the temperature and it was ZERO
DEGREES.  The beer was not slushy but frozen solid!

Fortunately the carboy was not cracked so I returned the defective
controller for one that worked.  The beer turned out great so I named
it:

    Fire, Smoke, and Ice Rauchbier!


FYI: The recipe is available at my web site listed below.

- --
John Adams
The Brews Traveler
http://www.adamsco-inc.com/BrewsTraveler


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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:03:23 -0800 
From: "O'mahoney, Larry (LLOM)" <LLOM at chevron.com>
Subject: Changes at Sierra Nevada?

Anyone notice any recent changes in Sierra Nevada Pale Ale? On the plus side
it seems to have a little more hoppiness and mouthfeel than in years past.
But now it give me a wicked headache. That never happened before!


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Date: 02 Feb 99 08:01:26 -0800
From: "Eric Schoville" <ESCHOVIL at us.oracle.com>
Subject: False Bottom

Sorry I am late responding to the false bottom thread,  
but I'm going to contribute my 2 cents anyway.  Originally  
I used a manifold for my brewing kettle (outdated pictures  
still available at my website).  It left quite a bit of  
wort in the bottom of the kettle, but otherwise worked  
well with whole hops or plugs (I don't use pellets).   
I didn't like the fact that it was not easy to remove to  
clean the kettle well, so I thought about a false bottom. 
 
I ended making a false bottom out of an aluminum pizza  
pan with holes in it.  I had two problems.  First, the  
pizza pan would not fit through my opening.  Second, I  
had to figure out a way to drain from the bottom of the  
boiler, since the coupling is in the side of the keg.   
My solution was to cut the pizza pan in half and then  
screw the halves back together using a 2" aluminum strip  
with SS self tapping screws.  Next I put together some  
copper pipe in an L shape to go to the direct bottom of  
the boiler.  See a picture of an identical one that I  
use on my HLT at my website below.  In order to get the  
FB around the tube, I unscrewed one half from the  
aluminum strip, and then drilled a hole in the aluminum  
strip to accomodate the copper pipe.  Then I cut out  
the hole with a jigsaw so that half could be placed  
around the tube.  Afterwards, I screwed on the other  
half.   
 
The first couple of times it didn't work as promised  
because there weren't enough holes.  So I spent many  
hours drilling the SOB until it is as holey as Swiss  
cheese.  Anyway it works very well now, and there is  
hardly any wort in the bottom of the boiler.  It is also 
very easy to remove and clean.  I am thinking about  
putting a false bottom in my mash tun, but for the  
time I spent, I think I am going to go with a commercial  
model! 
 
See you guys at the MCAB! 
 
Eric Schoville 
Flower Mound, TX 
http://home1.gte.net/rschovil/beer/3tier.html

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Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 11:06:04 PST
From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at fcc.net>
Subject: Bottling buckets and secondaries / wheat as an adjunct

Hi all,

There has been a bit of discussion about the use of bottling buckets
and secondaries.  People are justifiably concerned about oxidation of
the fermented beer when using such vessels.

Oxidation of fermented beer is indeed a horrible thing.  It can rob your
beer of malt character and even give it metallic and sherry-like flavors.
It is best to avod it.  That is why I have taken to using kegs as 
secondaries
and bottling buckets (I thank Bill Coleman for the idea of using a keg 
as
a bottling bucket).

A keg is easily purged of oxygen by filling it with boiled water and 
pushing the
water out with CO2.  The hot water also serves to sanitize the clean keg.
This is much more effective than simply pressurizing the keg a few times.
If you think this is too anal, some mega-brewers take the care to do this
with 500 bbl tanks.  My 10 gallons of homebrew is easily worth the extra
effort.

After purging the keg it is filled with beer and primings (if you are 
bottling).
This can be done through the "liquid out" fitting (simply put the "CO2 
in"
fitting on the keg as a vent).  The keg is then sealed with a few pounds
of CO2 pressure and shaken to mix the primings.  You can then attach
your bottle filler to the "liquid out" and let 'er rip (unless you are 
using the
keg as a secondary, obviously).

If you are really anal you can use your counterpressure filler as a 
bottling device,
purging each bottle with CO2 prior to filling it.  In this way you should
 be able
to get close to mega-brewer levels of air in your bottled beer.

Sure, this degree of analness is not necessary if you plan on keeping 
your beer
cold and drinking it within a month.  For those of us who keep beer 
around longer
or don't have a dedicated beer refrigerator, this degree of care can 
increase the
shelf life of your beer.  See George Fix's article in the Nov./Dec. issue
 of Brewing
Techniques for data showing the startling rate of decline in the flavor 
of
aerated beer.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding Jim's question about wheat as an adjunct:
it does not have to be cooked like rice and corn.
Wheat gelatinizes at or below saccharification temperature (52-64C, 
125.5-147F),
so it can be milled and used in an infusion mash (you will probably want 
to use a
protein rest when using large quantities of raw wheat).

Have fun!

George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:59:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Jon Sandlin <sandlinj at ucs.orst.edu>
Subject: fermenting under pressure

	I can't remember where, but I remember reading about fermenting
under pressure to lower the temperature of the fermentation.  Supposedly
(from the reading) this is what some German breweries do. is this
information false?  If not, what pressure levels are needed to lower the
temperatures?  Is it possible to use some kind of pressure relief valve
on a keg?  Any help would be greatly appreciated!



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Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:15:59 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Organic Malt

I tried a sack of Bioriginal from Saskatchewan and found it
in all regards identical to Canada Malting 2 Row.

Very good product, but a lot more expensive than the CM, so
I switched back.  Of course, I buy directly from CM, so 
that's why it's so cheap for me.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay		Nortel Networks
Norstar WinNT		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
amckay at nortelnetworks.com


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Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:21:12 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Miracles never cease!

Jack and I agree again!
;-)

cheers,
 -Alan
p.s.  Ice cubes do freeze faster if you use *HOT* water (don't
 know about warm).  Water evaporates so you are dealing with 
 less volume.

Jack Schmidling wrote :
> Just like in making beer,  you probably can't get in too much 
> trouble if you believe everything the "experts" say but as your
> knowledge and skill increase, you come to realize that many of 
> these "momilies" are simply rubbish or just as bad, unnecessary 
> anal time wasters.

- --
Alan McKay		Nortel Networks
Norstar WinNT		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
amckay at nortelnetworks.com


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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:28:22 -0500
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com>
Subject: Spruce Beer

Jon asked about using spruce. I brewed a batch of a honey/spruce beer and as
one of my skiing buddies said, "it was like skiing through the trees with
your f*&king mouth open". Another friend relayed to me that it was a good
solution to rid his yard of slugs. My wife compared it to drinking PineSol
(now how she knows what PineSol tastes like is still a bit of a concern on
my part). Never the less I would highly recommend that if you use the liquid
form, essence of Spruce which is a milky looking solution, you use a very,
very, very small amount. I used about a third of the bottle (sorry don't
know the exact size but it was a small container probably no more than an
ounce) in a five gallon batch. Good Luck...

Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA
Home of the Yellow Breeches Brewery





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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:36:01 -0800 
From: "Riedel, Dave" <RiedelD at PAC.DFO-MPO.GC.CA>
Subject: Stuck fermentation...?

It seems that I have a stuck ferment, I was wondering if anyone had any
ideas as to what happened and what to do about it.

17 Jan - made a 9-10 gallon batch of porter:
	8.6kg HB pale ale
	550g black patent
	500g 80L crystal
	285g DWC caramel pils
	115g Briess carapils
	260g chocolate
	
	7.5 gal very soft water treated with 1.25 tsp epsom salts
	0.75 tsp baking soda, 0.5 tsp canning salt.  Mash in with
	same treated water to achieve 152F mash temp.  Added
	2.5 tsp chalk to get pH up to 5.2.  40 minutes into mash,
	temperature down to 148-149F.  90 mins- converted, surface
	temperature down to 144F.  Raised to mash-out of ~165F,
	held for 5 mins then recirc'd - ranoff into kettle.  
	
	Boiled for 60 mins, with 85g EKG for 60 mins, 45g Fuggle for
	10 min and 30g Fuggle at 0 mins.  1/2 tsp Irish moss added
	with 15 min left in boil.  Topped up with water to ~11 gallons
	at 1.060.
	
	Whirlpooled and rested wort for 5 mins, then ranout through CF
	to ~68F into two 23L carboys (one then the other).  Shook 
	carboy vigorously for 15 mins then pitched 2 pkgs of Danstar 
	London dry yeast, rehydrated in 104F water for 15 mins.  Placed
	in room at 68F to ferment.

21 Jan - krausen has risen and fallen (note: long lag time ~ 12 hrs),
bubbling
	every 40 secs.  Temperature has held at approx. 65-66F.  SG taken:
	1.025.  Increase room temp to 68F, rouse yeast by swirling.

26 Jan - SG still 1.025, add a pkg of Cooper's dry (note: after pitching, 
	noticed that yeast had expiry date of Jan '99.. also not stored in
fridge
	by shop).

30 Jan - SG still at 1.025

1 Feb - (evening) add 1 pkg of fresh, properly stored Cooper's yeast,
rehydrated
	as above.

2 Feb - (morning) no activity. 

I'm beginning to wonder if 1.025 really is the terminal gravity.  However,
with a
mash temp of 152F down to 144F over 90 mins, I really doubt that 58% AA
is likely.  I suppose it possible that my thermometer is out, but it would
have
to be out by around 6-7 degrees F.

Any thoughts here?
cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC, Canada 



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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:39:12 -0600 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: GF whatever

>>>>
Looking forward to the incoming dissertations of GFCI protection from
all of the drummers in the band as well as the driver of the wagon,

Wayne Holder 
Long Beach CA
<<<<

Sounds to me like you do not have enough room in your RIMS for a GFCI, poor
planning if so.  You refuse to acknowledge the benefits of a GFCI because
you screwed up your design and just can't fit it in!    ;>)

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:25:05 -0500
From: PAUL W HAAF JR <haafbrau1 at juno.com>
Subject: Fw: Re: Pressure and fermentation.

This was kicked back to me for a bad e-dress.  I'm posting here for
Simon.
Paul Haaf 
(Add witty remark here)

- --------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Haafbrau1 at juno.com
To: sWesley at maine.maine.edu
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:04:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Pressure and fermentation.
Message-ID: <19990201.220435.-276943.3.Haafbrau1 at juno.com>

Well, first off, Rob Moline was right about needing 5 lbs pressure to
seal the keg initially.  As far as the build-up of CO2, if you had the
two beers connected together, and you consumed the first to bleed off the
excess pressure, you'll eliminate the build-up pressure problem.8-)  But
seriously, what I've done in the past with still-fermenting kegs is just
bleed off  CO2 after about 20-25 psi, down to about 8 lbs and start over.
Not much else I can say on the matter, I'll leave that to the 'experts'. 
Hope this helps.
Paul Haaf 
The opinions expressed here are no one's but my own.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:13:55 -0500 
From: Ryan McCammon <mccammon at isr.umich.edu>
Subject: use of copper in brewing

I am a little confused about the safe use of copper in brewing.  According
to the Michigan State University Extension
(http://www.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/mod02/01500616.html), the FDA says that
"the agency cautions against using unlined copper for general cooking
because the metal is relatively easily dissolved by some foods and,
insufficient quantities, can cause nausea, vomiting and diarrhea."  What are
the implications of this warning for my copper immersion chiller?  What
about for my buddy's amazing 12 gallon copper kettle?  What about the beer
from the wort that I boiled in this unlined copper kettle?  Since wort is
acidic, it seems to me that it should readily dissolve some of the copper.
OTOH, I thought that the Brits referred  to their brewpots (or is it
fermenters?) as 'coppers', owing to the traditional use of copper for such
purposes.  What gives?                                 


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Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:18:28 -0600
From: "Gregory M. Remake" <gremake at gsbalum.uchicago.edu>
Subject: More bottling questions

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses regarding the need for using a bottling bucket.
Most felt that it's worth doing, primarily to ensure complete mixing of the
priming solution, and minimizing yeast transfer.  Some others prefer
priming the bottles directly, and filling straight from the carboy.  I
think I'll give it a try sometime, but as I suspected, there are valid
reasons for using the bottling bucket.

Some additional questions:  I'll be bottling my first lager after a few
weeks in the secondary, after I've fined with gelatin.  I'm assuming there
should be enough yeast left in suspension, but should I stir up some of the
settled yeast during racking, just to be sure?  To help carbonate the
bottled beer, should I store it at room temperature (or some other
temperature) prior to cold conditioning, or just go straight to cold
conditioning (at 35F)?

Thanks for any help.

Greg "The worst beer I ever had was excellent" Remake


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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:19:29 -0800
From: "Mark Riley" <markril at jps.net>
Subject: Re: GFCI - Page down if you please

Wayne Holder writes:

>Looking forward to the incoming dissertations of GFCI protection from
>all of the drummers in the band as well as the driver of the wagon,

Wayne, you just KNOW your original post was a troll, stop
whining.  ;-)  That said, I say unto thee:

Have you ever plugged in an appliance and found that
it wasn't working, only to jiggle the plug and everything
was Peachy King again?  Well, what if the bad connection
was with the ground terminal instead?  All that meticulous
grounding you mentioned would then be for naught, right?

I think perhaps that the reason GFCI became a national
requirement in areas where water could be present on
the floor and elsewhere is that the government couldn't
keep a lid on all those DEAD bodies that seemed to
accumulate in those very same locations.

Aren't you glad somebody was thinking about you?

Electrically yours,

Mark Riley
Sacramento, CA

P.S. My apologies for being irreverant on what really is
a serious issue.  I find no fault (heh heh) with anyone who
encourages the use of GFCI even if that person doesn't
know the why's or the how's of its operation.




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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 00:44:11 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Gibb

Clif writes:

>My addition of the CRC doesn't even have an entry for
>Gibberellic Acid.  I have seen the level of professional
>expertise that readers of this list covers, and am asking
>for feedback on the use of GA3.  I understand that it is
>commonly used as a fruit growth modifier.  Is it used
>commercially in its soluble form?

The company I work for uses Gibberellic Acid as part of its cultivation
practices in growing table grapes and tree fruit (nectarines, peaches,
plums, etc.).  The farmers call this stuff Gibb (jib) and classify it as
"enlargement" (no Fouch, don't go there) and a growth regulator. I
believe they spray it on after it has been diluted in water and buy it
in liquid form.  The application rate is something like 1 pint per
acre.  One acre typically yields 600 boxes of fruit, and each box is
about 20 lbs.  As part of my job I have to analyze the economic net
effect of using this chemical on the final product.  There is no
question of its value added, and that the net effect is larger more
marketable fruit.  I used to think Gibb was a bunch of hooey until I had
to analyze its costs and benefits.

Clif, let me know if you want me to find out the exact application
rates.

Kyle
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:16:21 +1000
From: "Darren Robey"<Darren.Robey at nre.vic.gov.au>
Subject: Sanitation Again


snip
>>4) Wort cooled in driving rainstorm with no lid - no infection
>4)Crossed street again without looking - didn't get hit.
>>Vern Land
>>Sanitation Blasphemer
>Pete Calinski
>Street Crossing Blasphemer.  NO WAY.  I'll always look before I cross and
>I'll always practice reasonable (but not anal) measures to sanitize.

I must be one of those people who anally look EVERY time they cross the
road and the one time I didnt .......BAM!.

The only two bottles I didn't follow  sanitation habits with, they were
just for the left over after filling a keg, had the most horrible off
flavor I have ever tasted.


Darren




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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:18:58 -0500
From: "Michael Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: Cleaning Corney pressure release valves.

The pressure release valve on one of my ball lock corney kegs has gunked up.
I released pressure too soon after force carbonating and beer squirted out
the holes. Now the valve just releases a small amout of pressure (per
second..).  Can they be disassembled and cleaned?  Boil the lid?
Suggestions?
TIA, Mike 8*)
In the middle of the Shenandoah Valley (Staunton, Va)



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---