HOMEBREW Digest #3024 Fri 07 May 1999

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Clear Weizen / Lauter tun performance ("George De Piro")
  bottlecaps.... (Joe Rolfe)
  Re: O2 Caps (mark)
  Lager Starters (Troy Hager)
  Re: draught question/Guinness head (Spencer W Thomas)
  cleaning caps and bottles (SClassification)
  Need a diacetyl rest for Imperial Stout? (Matt Birchfield)
  cleaning sanke kegs? ("Sandlin, Jonathan Mark - BUS")
  Calcium Phosphate Precipitation (Matt Brooks)
  Cleaners for stainless steel? (jgibbens)
  More from a Plastered Home brewer and Bullet Autoclaves (Joy Hansen)
  Jeremy explains sterilization to Joy (Joy Hansen)
  Idophor Sanitizing Solutions Revisited (Joy Hansen)
  Pivo is Polish for peer (Jack Schmidling)
  RE: Legalized Homebrew ("Kuhl, Brian S")
  Upside-down Converted keg, SHMS update ("Ludwig's")
  malting 101? (Dick Dunn)
  MCAB Prizes (Charley Burns)
  re: ring around the porter ("Penn, John")
  Plaster of Paris ("Alan McKay")
  clear Weizen ("Alan McKay")
  IPA Recipe - Too much Hops ? (woodsj)
  re:  lifting converted keg kettles ("Kensler, Paul")
  Free bottles (De Pere, Wisconsin) (Richard Stueven)
  Re: Lifting converted-keg kettles (Jeff Renner)
  Sanitizers and Oxidizers ("Rick Theiner         ")
  Upgrading the Brewery, advice wanted (Andrew Ager)

Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! 2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99 (http://burp.org/SoFB99); Oregon Homebrew Festival 5/22/99 (http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/fest.html); Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99 (http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff) Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. **SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail! Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow" Back issues are available via: HTML from... http://hbd.org Anonymous ftp from... ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer AFS users can find it under... /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. Digests CANNOT be reprinted or reproduced in any format for redistribution unless said redistribution is at absolutely NO COST to the consumer. COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the above. Home brew clubs NOT associated with organizations having a commercial interest in beer or brewing may republish articles in their newsletters and/or websites provided that the author and HBD are attributed. ASKING first is still a great courtesy...) JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 05 May 99 08:53:04 PDT From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at fcc.net> Subject: Clear Weizen / Lauter tun performance Hi all, Fred Johnson writes: " However, it is cloudy only for the first few weeks after I bottle and gets progressively clearer during storage (under my house at only several degrees below outside temp) This beer eventually clears just like all the other beers I've brewed." Back to me: I have brewed many Weizens and have noticed the same effect that Fred has; after about 6 weeks in the bottle the beers become clear, sometimes also becoming thinner and suffering from reduced head retention, too. A bit more than a year ago Hubert Hangoffer and I (and perhaps some others) had a discussion about this very phenomenon. According to a paper that Hubert had (I think it was from the Feb. 1998 Weihenstephan technical lectures) yeast autolysis is largely responsible for the degradation of protein in unfiltered Weizen. Although the flavors of autolysis may not be noticeable, the more subtle effects will be: the pH of the beer goes up a few tenths and proteases released by the yeast cells degrade proteins. This produces clear beer and can diminish the head and body, too. It would appear that the major reason that some of the larger breweries replace the primary Weizen starin with a lager strain at bottling is to avoid this. The Weizen strains are often not as hardy as less exotic yeasts. Of course, the simple fact that the yeast settles over time also explains the overly clear Weizen. In all likelyhood it is a combination of the two events (and maybe some other stuff, too). - ------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Santerre draws a cute ASCII picture of the grain in his lauter tun moving away from the tun wall, forming a sort of convex surface during the sparge. My homebrew lauter tun does this same thing. This is not uncommon, but it can encourage channeling down the tun walls and reduce efficiency. Paul Smith, a Siebel instructor with many years of experience with Coors, stated that if your lauter tun tends to encourage this sort of thing, you should push the grain up higher against the walls at the start of the lauter. You can fix it during the lauter, too, if you care that much. Have fun! George de Piro (Nyack, NY) Head brewer, Albany Pump Station Malted Barley Appreciation Society "Brooklyn's Best Homebrew Club" http://hbd.org/mbas Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:08:05 -0400 (EDT) From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu> Subject: Phosphate Concerning possible precipitation of phosphates Matt B wrote: >My post was not intended to imply that CaHPO4 (I am not >certain CaPO4 is >a compound? ) would not form in brew water or wort as it very well >may. Actually, if you had read my post thoroughly, as a grad student >in the sciences (I myself having been one not too long ago) who is >reviewing a technical statement for critique should :^) , you would have >noticed that I said "Hydroxyapatite" would not form unless the pH was >over 11.0, this statement is true. Hydroxyapatite is a more complex >form of calcium phosphate precipitate... Ca5(PO4)3OH.... which >precipitates out at high pHs. Since you included the little smiley face there in your post I'm assuming this response is meant to be humorous, at least in part. I've certainly seen more than enough acrimonious debate here over scientific minutiae on this forum and hope this thread isn't headed in a similar direction ;) Yes, I certainly did notice your reference to hydroxyapatite. However, I think that most people reading your post would've come away with the conclusion that to get calcium and phosphate to precipitate one would need to get to an extremely high pH. You specifically made the point that in water treatment quicklime is used to remove phosphate and that this causes the pH to quickly rise, that the reaction is a pH-dept reaction and, in closing you said that you seriously doubted that anyone would add enough calcium to get the pH up above 11.0 I just thought that your post would leave the impression (especially to non-chemists) that high pH is absolutely required for ANY phosphate precipitation by calcium. As far as the form of phosphate in barley malt there are going to be many with inorganic polyphosphate likely to be a major source but I'm just guessing here... You asked about the phosphate levels I cited from the MBAA book, this is from a table on inorganic wort constituents and is indeed listed as PO4 (mg/l). Incidentaly, Here's an interesting quote from the chapter on wort production by J. Dougherty: ____________________________________________________________________________ "...natural pH control in the mash takes place principally under the catalytic influence of the enzymes phytase and the nucleases. These malt enzymes under peptonizing conditions causes the release of phosphate ion from the organic phosphates of the malt. The resulting mixture of phosphates is composed mainly of the dibasic potassium phosphate, K2HPO4, which has a pH of 8.4 and monobasic KH2PO4 which has a pH of 4.7. ... In the presence of adequate calcium such as calcium sulfate in the brewing water a reaction takes place between the calcium sulfate and the alkaline potassium phosphate: K2HPO4 + CaSO4 --> Ca3(PO4)2 ppt + KH2PO4 + K2SO4 This will be forced to the right and th4e alkaline K2HPO4 is very rapidly brought into reaction and converted. The pH is thus naturally adjusted to the optimum range." __________________________________________________________________________ Although I do have anal-retentive problems with his talking about the "pH of phosphates" instead of their pKa's and It seems likely that phosphatases in addition to nucleases will be playing a role in liberation of inorganic phosphate from organic sources, this still provides an example of the importance of a phosphate ppt reaction occuring at (relatively) low pH as well as the obvious importance of calcium (apart from the stabilizing effect calcium has on the barley amylases). In closing I must say that I completely agree with your assertion that we are unlikely to be precipitating out enough phosphate to negatively affect our beer - the yeast certainly seem to have no problems growing and they have an absolute requirement for bioavailable phosphate in the the wort! -Alan Meeker Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 10:18:55 -0400 From: Joe Rolfe <rolfe at sky.sky.com> Subject: bottlecaps.... >From my experiences on sanitizing caps or not.... If the box (huge amount of caps...many gross) is keep in a clean dry environment, and is in a virgin state sanitizing is not done (most micros). Handling is one key item if the entire box is not used up in one shot. Bottling line operators should not directly touch them with hands, the top of the capper bin should be covered. Some older bottling line dont have a sanitary method for removing unused caps - easily. What we did on our manual line and seemed to work for us - dump the caps in iodine - just to be safe. We never used a full box of caps in one bottling run. How this relates to homebrewing - how does the store repackage the caps?? Is the shop grinding grain right next to the open box of caps? Are the repackers digging around with thier hands? If any of these conditions are not met you could get contaminated caps. You really have no control unless you buy the full box. Sure most times you wont have a problem - I'd go with the ounce of prevention tho.... Back from Grand Bahama now - thank god - good weather, food, Bahama Mamas and beer (Kalik and Guinness) - dirty, crappy island tho.... Joe Rolfe Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 16:36:52 +0200 From: mark <shrike.cars at accesinternet.com> Subject: Re: O2 Caps Ah, yes... But you see, the majors have these large million dollar machines called Pasteurizers..... While working for a brewery in Germany (Kaiserdom Privatbrauerei, Bamberg. No, they dont make Rauchbier), I was witness to the same thing. The bottling production went like this: Bottles brought in on pallets, depalletized via machine, run down a long moving band/line to a bottle washing machine ( the machine was about 100 feet long). This would wash the bottles with "Saure" (acid, can't do the a with the umlaut in ASCII) and then rinse them with filtered / sterile water. The bottles were then snaked around via more moving band/line, and ended up at the filler (50 or 75 head Krones I think). At which point, after filling, they were capped (duh!). The caps were taken from their plastic bag lined boxes and dumped straight into the cap hopper. Not sterilized or sanitized (which leads me to think they come pre sterilized? Gasp! Imagine that!). However, they had a large pasteurizer that you loaded a full pallet of full bottles into, waited a while and out came pasteurized beer!!! WOW! However, they only pasteurized bottled beers that were marked for export, not for local distribution. Same thing with their sodas. When I was still bottling my homebrew, I would sterilize the caps in iodine, never had a problem. Although I have heard that sterilizing the O2 caps with a water based solution isn't good.... I think I have a solution: Why not just move over to kegging, and have a few Growlers on hand when you want to take beer to a friends house? Prost! Mark Weaver mark at awfulquiet.com ( please use this address to reply to) Lee Menegoni wrote: >"I'm wondering if anyone has asked a micro or a major on how they clean >theirs. I have askedand this 1 (one) micro said that they didn't. They dump >them right out ofthe freshly opened box and cap them without cleaning any >of them." >This is what I have observed at the numerous micros I have toured. They >dump boxes of caps directly into a bin in the the bottling machine. >Home brewers have the problem of not knowing how the caps have been >handled prior to purchase and the possibility that they were exposed to >dust, especially grain dust in an HB shop. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:18:30 -0700 From: Troy Hager <thager at bsd.k12.ca.us> Subject: Lager Starters Fellow HBDers, I am going to do my first lager and was wondering about the starter. I have heard that you want to ferment the starters at the same temp that the wort will be fermented at. I have also heard that a lager takes a lot longer to ferment than an ale. Two questions: 1. Do you keep all of the steps of your starters at the same temp that you will keep your primary? 2. Do lager starters take longer than ale starters. How much longer? Thanks! Private emails are fine. -Troy Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:29:25 -0400 From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: draught question/Guinness head >>>>> "BrewInfo" == BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com> writes: BrewInfo> I'm *pretty* sure that Guinness head is mostly CO2 also, BrewInfo> but it's not based upon any science Also no science, but experience: I can get a Guinness-like head (big head with "falling bubbles" effect and a long-lasting creamy head remaining) by overpressured CO2 dispense from a keg through a simple cobra tap. I "know" there's no (or very very little) nitrogen inside my keg. =Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI (spencer at umich.edu) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:21:47 -0500 From: SClassification at DOC.STATE.AL.US Subject: cleaning caps and bottles John Simonetta posts this about the need for cleaning. "My homebrew shop sells them in small quantity, prepackaged bags. I think from now on, no boiling, and handle the crown from the top. Thanks, Rob, for cutting a step out of my process!" Reality check! How do you think the caps got in the prepackaged bags? I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I've toured the warehouse of two big brewing wholesalers and they repackage items like these themselves (just like your homebrew shop probably does). Both just have a corner in the warehouse with employees moving malt, caps, chemicals, etc. from large bags to small bags. No clean rooms with hoods, though they do wear hairnets. As for the multible posts about sanitizing bottles in the oven. Why? Seems like it would take a lot of time to load and unload, time to heat it up and cool it down... Have you ever tried a bottle tree with a rinser? Quick and easy, in the time you would use to load the oven you could have all your bottles sanitized and ready for filling. The tree is also a great way to store 80 clean bottles waiting on the next bottling day. I too said, "$35 for a piece of plastic? I can make one myself and the dishwasher works fine." Having to bottle a batch at the shop one day without the dishwasher, I broke one out of the box and am now converted. Kim Thomson ALABREW Homebrewing Supplies http://www.mindspring.com/~alabrew Birmingham, AL Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 12:35:48 -0400 From: Matt Birchfield <peridot at usit.net> Subject: Need a diacetyl rest for Imperial Stout? Hi All, Last weekend I brewed about 8.5 gallons of Imperial Stout (SG 1.090). Everything went well, pitched a gallon starter of White Labs Irish Ale Yeast. Within about 3 hours the fermentation started going fast ... real fast! Within 12 hours the top blew off the air lock. I did manage to keep the temperature under 78 degrees with location and a water bath/wet towels. I have read many references to the need for diacetyl rests for barley wines and other strong beers but never for a stout ... Do I need to do one with this Imperial Stout? If so, how long? Thanks for the advice! Matt Blacksburg, VA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:12:33 -0700 From: "Sandlin, Jonathan Mark - BUS" <SANJM304 at bus.orst.edu> Subject: cleaning sanke kegs? I am curious about how commercial breweries clean their sanke kegs after use. Is there a similar way that I can clean mine at home? Obviously there is no way to "scrub" the insides. Thank you for your help! Jon Sandlin Corvallis, OR Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 16:22:20 -0400 From: Matt Brooks <mabrooks at erols.com> Subject: Calcium Phosphate Precipitation In HBD 3022 AJ bounces back with some compelling info which holds true....to some degree.... >I can't agree wth Matt Brooks that hydroxyapatite does not precipitate above pH 11. pH 11 is not a magic >number. Your right it is not a magic number and again I said that hydroxyapatite does not precipitate below pH 11.0 not above (probably a typo on your part). I retract this statement to a point, phosphate does not fully precipitate out as Hydroxyapatite below pH 11.0. If you are trying to precipitate out significant concentrations of the PO4 in a water you had better get the pH up above 9.0 to get any appreciable results, or better yet, take the pH up to 11.0 (with CaOH2) where you will have all the OH necessary to precipitate out all of the PO4. Anything less then pH 9.0 will likely not do the trick, some will form but not much....more on this later.... >The reaction is equivalent based as are all reactions - there just aren't any that aren't. True again, compounds form on an equivalent per equivalent basis but you cannot excpect to add x number of moles of PO4 and X number of moles of Ca and get an equal amount of hydroxyapatite formation, (hence it is not a direct equivalent per equivalent reaction, as many others are) other factors apply like the existance of hydroxyls to complete the compound. If you added 10 meq (milliequivalents) of Ca and 10 meq of PO4 would you get hydroxyapatite formation, perhaps, but only to the extent of how many equivalents of OH were present (related to pH), so if you only had say 2 meq of OH available in the solution (at typical water pHs there is very little OH present to begin with) that will be the limiting factor for hydroxapatite formation. So say you added Ca in the form of CaOH2. Well you say, look at all the OHs attached to this compound surely I will get alot of hydroxyapatite....not really as the Ca you are adding to the water will react with the "excess alkalinity" (remember this term as it plays an important role also) to form calcium carbonate, so you must add enough lime to account for the alkalinity plus the amount required for the phosphate precipitation. By now your system pH is going to be quite high (>9.0) and you will have to do some sort of pH adjustment to get things back to where you want them. >the solution is super saturated with respect to hydroxyapatite and it will precipitate if a seed crystal or >other mechanism is present. This may be more important than you think, especially when it comes to hydroxyapatite formation, smaller particles are more soluble then larger ones and it takes quite a bit of time to get hydroxyapatite to form to begin with, this is known as an induction period. This induction period has been shown to be extremely long for hydroxyapatite formation (several hours, according to Snoeyink and Jenkins, p.303 in "Water Chemistry", Wiley Press, 1980.). This induction period may be significantly reduced by adding a "seed" to the water to provide nucleation growth, however this seed will need to be in the form of hydroxyapatite and hence does not seem likely that your typical homebrewer will have some on hand, or will want to put it in his mash to begin with. > This is why the solubility of carbonates and phosphates decrease with pH and why we can get them out >of solution by raising pH. I thought we were discussing the topic of too low of a mash pH being a problem. If pH depression is the problem wouldn't this relate to cabonates and phosphates wanting to go into solution instead of precipitating out? >but this is a little tricky, is use the solubility product of apatite to compute the amount that will precipitate >and the pH at equilibrium. You use numerical techniques to solve for the pH which satifies both the >solubility product limit and the charge neutrality criterion. It becomes even trickier if you try to consider >the other forms of apatite so that in practice it's not worth doing (for phosphate - do it all the time for >carbonate). Bingo...the optimum pH for hydroxyapatite precipitation is directly related to the the point where the K(s) is the lowest. This is certainly the way to go, perhaps a pC-pH digram would also come in handy! >Matt doesn't think phosphate precipitates in brewing to the point where it plays a significant role and >hopes that this thread doesn't evolve into one which has little relevance to brewing. Phosphates do >precipitate in brewing Proof of this is where????? >and the fact that they do so is extremely relevant for it is their precipitation which we use to control mash >pH. What happened to the Carbonate Buffering system???? >The whole concept of residual alkalinity is based on the extent to which respectively calcium and >magnesium precipitate phosphate thus releasing hydrogen ions. Put gypsum into water which is free of >phosphate and there is no change in pH. Put it into mash and the pH drops. If this isn't from phosphate >precipitation a lot of brewers have been laboring under a false impression for a long time. There are other compounds that may form....see below....Correct me if I am wrong here, but the water system on our planet is based on the Cabonate buffering system not the Phosphate buffering system. In light of this, the fact remains that HPO4 is very much involved in determining the total alkalinity of a mash, (drinking waters have very relatively little phosphte present so it does not play a major role in alkalinity determination there). The fact that the pH rapidly drops in a water after crushed grains are added may be due In Small Part to the binding of PO4 as Ca3(PO4)2 or perhap some hydroxyapatite (but only to the extent that it is given time to form....hours?) but isnt the bottom line the availability of bicabonate or carbonate in the water to buffer against such changes...... Lets look at a pC-pH diagram for the carbonate buffering system, at pH =7.0 there is, as you may have guessed, exactly 10(-7) Moles (uppercase on the -7) thats .0000001 Moles of OH and .0000001 Moles of H present. (If you are forming hydroxyapatite you probably wont be forming much, unless you add some OH). This pC-pH diagram will also show the relative concentrations of various species of carbonate (H2CO3, HCO3, and CO3) and how those concentrations vary with pH. As this topic has progressed the original posts seemed to have gotten set aside as we have delved into the chemisrty behind it all, I believe it started with the infamous Al K, and Dave B. talking about pH drop resulting from hydroxyapatite formation, then someone posted about concerns of not having enough PO4 for their yeast to grow. As for the former, I believe you need to ask yourself if the water you use to brew with has enough carbonate buffer capacity (i.e. alkalinity in the form of bicarbonate (HCO3) or depending on your water pH carbonate (CO3) alkalinity) to resist the drop in pH you notice when you mash in your grains? How much alkalinity should I have you ask, well it depends on the amount of "acid" (H+) you are generating when you mash in. Acid formation can be due in part from calcium phosphate formation (because as you remove phosphates you liberate Hydrogens) but I believe there are other factors at play here. These factors may well include Calcium hydrogen phosphate (CaHPO4) and Calcium dihydrogen phosphate Ca(H2PO4)2 dissociation???? the pK(so) of these is very small and I believe they are likely to play a significant role when there is not enough OH (or time) available to promote hydroxyapatite formation. As for the latter, I dont think a brewer could precipitate out a significant amount of phosphate (unless he was trying to) that would affect yeast growth, for the reasons discussed previously. Bottom line.... Some tests need to be done and I will take it upon myself to do these tests, using laboratory grade equipment and waters of differing chemical composition. Will post results in the near furure to those interested....? Matt B. Northern, VA. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:26:54 -0500 (CDT) From: jgibbens at umr.edu Subject: Cleaners for stainless steel? Does anyone know what the brewing industry uses to clean stainless steel fermenters? I'm looking for a readily available caustic that won't leave a residue and can be used to clean areas that are inacessible to scrubbing. Joe Gibbens Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:59:11 -0400 From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen) Subject: More from a Plastered Home brewer and Bullet Autoclaves Bob Sheck writes: " I would like to get _ALL_ my calcium from Beer! . . ." Hmmm, what's this I've read about "Stone Beer" and Square Stone Fermentation Vats? Could be that your brew is already in production? Jerry Luck wrote: "While I have no help to offer, I would like to suggest some possible >names for the final product: > Plaster of Pilsner / of Porter > Off the Wall Ale > Sheetrock Stout . . ." Thanks Jerry . . . from several private postings by home brewers who resorted to Plaster of Paris and produced "Off the Wall Ale" I'm not alone! Other home brewers will be glad to know that I've purchased sufficient food grade calcium sulfate for future brews . . .Now where did I put that bag? To the consortium, I'd like to apologize for the tongue in cheek comment about autoclaves and pressure cookers (both of which are wet heat systems) and accomplish the same end - "Sterilization". However, thermophiles still exist and the spores can survive incredible dry heat temperatures. If sanitation is all that's needed, just rinse with potable water after a rigorous cleaning. Let the log numbers of the existing organisms control the small number beer spoilage organisms. As for Joy"T"Brew Homestead brews, I'll continue to use idophor or Star San as a final no rinse technique for bottles and caps. At least there's adequate scientific information to demonstrate that these sanitizers, when used properly, reduce beer spoilage organisms to manageable levels. I'll continue to use my "wet heat" pressure cooker to sterilize yeast propagation accessories and starter worts. Hmmm, I've saved $25,000 of the USED price of an autoclave . . . maybe I can purchase some decent brewing equipment with the savings? Back in Virginia (Home) joytbrew at halifax.com and have cut a path to the front door through the two month old spring weeds. Now I have to find my brewing equipment. Bob Sheck bsheck, me-sheck, abednigo! Greenville, NC email:bsheck at skantech.net or see us at: http://www.skantech.net/bsheck/ - --------------------------------------------------------------- //If you really support our troops, keep them out of KOSOVO!// - --------------------------------------------------------------- Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:58:41 -0400 From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen) Subject: Jeremy explains sterilization to Joy I wrote " Subject: Brew Bottle Baking > Ever wonder why microbiologists invented an autoclave? > > Ever wonder what the difference is between "dry heat" and "wet heat" > sterilization? Jeremy replied: "liquids boil at a certain temperature and don't get any hotter. Water boils at a temperature too low to sterilize. Dry goods may be sterilized by high heat at 1 atm since they will heat past the boiling point of water. Liquid media will not. If you are suggesting something wrong with bottle baking I don't understand the argument." Joy replies: " Your premise that water cannot exceed 212 degrees Fahrenheit is absurd! Think about it. Water is seldom boiled at one atmosphere due to weather conditions and elevation throughout the United States. Possibly the 250 degree temperature inside my pressure cooker with water and the air exhausted is a myth created by scientists and the United States Department of Agriculture Extension Service to make extra work for home canning efforts? The extension Service tested home pressure cookers in the past to assure that the pressure gauge and the internal temperature reached sterilization temperatures. Think temperature, water vapor devoid of air, 15# psi, and the boiling point of water in the enclosed "pressure cooker" environment. You haven't yet convinced me that dry heat is any better than a clean bottle rinsed with a properly prepared sanitizer solution and drained dry or rinsed with potable water. > Ever wonder why many home brewers use a pressure cooker for > sterilization? For sterilizing liquids and objects resistant to 250F but not a lot higher. My oven can hold ~90 bottles--can your pressure cooker? Jeremy, does your technique terminate heat resistant spores and thermophiles? You may have revolutionized the entire food industry and the medical accessory sterilization industry. :) Joy"T"Brew ********************************************************* Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:11:29 -0400 From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen) Subject: Idophor Sanitizing Solutions Revisited I'd like to appologize to the consortium concerning my assertion that the 12.5 ppm idophor solutions would take a considerable time to sanitize equipment. I returned to Virginia this weekend and opened the booy by George J. Fix and Laurie A. Fix "An Analysis of Brewing Techniques" and reviewed the chapter on Sanitation, page 114. I sure got it wrong. The five minute contact time for the 12.5 ppm solution is (Dvalue) 5 times 3 is 15 minutes and not the 60 minutes I guessed at! While the 25 ppm solution required 9 minutes to achieve the same sanitation level. Again I apologize for presenting unsubstantiated opinion as fact to the consortium. The mentioned reference text is a valuable resource and should be on the list of "Must Read" for home brewers. The simplist way to sift science from opinion. I'm somewhat surprised that I didn't receive a single reply that stated simply that I'd not remembered the text properly. Must be that the Fix text is not widely read by home brewers. Ciao, Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 18:35:13 -0700 From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net> Subject: Pivo is Polish for peer From: "Kris Hansen" <HanseKW at dhfs.state.wi.us> "As a linguist and Russian speaker I had to point out to some of the more serious brewers (Mr. Burley) that Pivo is the Russian word for "beer".... As a point of interest, when our supplier delivers a load of rollers for MM's, the go-fer that does all the work is a Pole who speaks not a word of English. His reward for a job well done is always a big glass of the World's Greatest Pivo. Not sure how it is spelled in Polish but pivo is what he wants. js - -- Visit our web site: http://user.mc.net/arf ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:31:44 -0700 From: "Kuhl, Brian S" <brian.s.kuhl at intel.com> Subject: RE: Legalized Homebrew Paul Gatza wrote in part: Although we have done limited lobbying in the past, the new status allows us to lobby without restriction. July 1 is not only the day of our new tax status, it is also the effective date for legalized homebrewing in Idaho. As of this writing, the states of Alabama, Iowa, Kentucky, Mississippi, Ohio, Oklahoma and Utah still prohibit homebrewing. I respond: From what little I have read from Idaho law, homebrewing was not illegal. Homebrewing was just not statutorily recognized. A subtle difference but an important one. In the other states listed, is homebrewing illegal or just not statutorily recognized? Perhaps the states where it is actually illegal should more effort be focused. It bothers me that so much effort was put into something that technically, was not illegal. This is especially bothersome in a "free" country. A country where you must be told, not only what you cant do, but what you can do. By the way, does illegal homebrew taste better that legal homebrew? Cheers to ya, Brian Kuhl Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 23:13:34 -0400 From: "Ludwig's" <dludwig at us.hsanet.net> Subject: Upside-down Converted keg, SHMS update Howdy. Has anyone done a keg conversion by cutting out the bottom of the keg and used the existing top fitting as a drain? Seems I recall some talk about doing that a while back in the HBD. I have three half barrels I'm working on. The boil pot has gotten the standard treatment. The other two; one for the HLT and the other for the Mash Tun, I'd like to cut out the bottoms and use the standard big fitting for a flush drain(flush as in high output of rinse water) so I can clean the barrels in place. I'm thinking about getting a local machine shop to make a couple of adapters that would insert into the opening and secure with the standard o-ring and spring clip. The exiting end would have a large pipe thread for attachment of a large drain pipe (~1 inch ID, maybe). Anything commercially available that would work? BTW, I've completed a Stamp based controller for the SHMS. Haven't done a real mash yet but the test water mash went real well. I've now gotten sidetracked into an electric heat conversion of my HLT so that my next brew will be done in the basement, though the current weather here makes for some kickass outdoor brewing. Oh well. I will be updating my website soon with details of the controller and finally, maybe put something in the pump house section. Cheers! Dave Ludwig Flat Iron Brewery http://www.us.hsanet.net/user/dludwig/index.htm SO MD Return to table of contents
Date: 5 May 99 21:56:20 MDT (Wed) From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn) Subject: malting 101? Can someone point me at some info for malting on a very small scale? I know the basics--get the barley moist enough to germinate, stir it around and keep it from getting moldy, watch the sprouting, dry it and roast it. So much for principles, but what I want to do is malt a small amount, in the 2-digits-of-pounds range, using perhaps a bunch of shallow pans. I'm looking for things like germination time, drying temp, roasting temp, and times... Why? Well, why not? I asked a neighbor about brewing barley and he came back with about 15 lb of seed barley, 2-row, from another neighbor who sells to a local brewer (guess who:). I planted a bunch for another part of the experiment, but I've got enough left to try a first experiment at malting. The real "why?" is "because I need to keep learning as long as I'm alive" and since this is an area in which I have no experience, it would seem hard _not_ to learn something. Email replies might be a good idea since this is off in the fringe, but post if it makes sense. - --- Dick Dunn rcd at talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 13:42:07 -0700 (PDT) From: cburns at jps.net (Charley Burns) Subject: MCAB Prizes Any winners receive any yeast or malt yet? I got hops, but nothing else. Charley Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:16:38 -0400 From: "Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu> Subject: re: ring around the porter As for the ring around the porter bottles, please post your ingredients and process information. I have had harmful rings and innocent rings around the bottle. For instance I've still got a few bottles of a 1 year old Mint Chocolate Stout that I'm drinking which has a very distinctive white ring around the bottle. Ever batch of beer that I've made using cocoa ended up with the same innocent white ring around the bottle top. The batch that went bad had a more translucent looking ring which over time seemed to form a "cloudy" kind of layer at the top of the bottle and each bottle got worse with time indicating an infection. Your ring could also be from some ingredient you are using that you've never used before. It is very hard to say what the ring is from without more info on your ingredients and process. Please post again if you find out what it is or want to supply more info. John Penn Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 09:24:42 -0400 From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com> Subject: Plaster of Paris Frank Timmons doubts Dan Listermann's claim that there are iron filings in Plaster of Paris. Whether or not there are is a very moot point, IMO. I cannot for the life of me figure out why someone would knowingly and willingly put a non certified food-grade substance like this into their beer. It seems to me to be sheer lunacy. Spend the extra nickle and buy the stuff that's made for beer. It isn't very expensive at all. I really, really am racking my brain trying to figure out why someone would do this ... cheers, -Alan - -- Alan McKay OS Support amckay at nortelnetworks.com Small Site Integration 613-765-6843 (ESN 395) Nortel Networks http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 09:33:19 -0400 From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com> Subject: clear Weizen I have to agree with Peter A Ensminger about the common misconception that Hefeweizen must be hazy. In the two years I lived in Germany and drank the stuff on an almost daily basis, I don't think I've ever seen one that wasn't crystal clear until the yeast got disturbed from the bottom. And I actively sought out new Hefeweizens that I'd never tried before. cheers, -Alan - -- Alan McKay OS Support amckay at nortelnetworks.com Small Site Integration 613-765-6843 (ESN 395) Nortel Networks http://www.nortelnetworks.com/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:42:05 -0400 From: woodsj at us.ibm.com Subject: IPA Recipe - Too much Hops ? Looking for a new recipe and am a borderline hophead. Looking at several IPA recipes, particularly "Sister Star of the Sun"....many awards....it has a heavy hop schedule of 3 ozs Chinook for 60 mins, 2 ozs EKG for 15 mins, 2 ozs Fuggles while chilling, then dry hop in the keg. I've tried other recipes with lighter hop schedule and they seem to come out very bitter and have a real bite. By my calculations this comes out to approx 55 HBU's, a big beer ! I'm wary of 3 ozs for the bittering hop, but then it calls for 13 lbs of grains. (5 gal recipe) Anyone have the same concern ? How much hop flavor would be lost/added if some hops were moved to a flavoring hop say for 30 mins in the boil ? Anyone have suggestions ? If I could clone the Breckenridge IPA it would become the staple in my keg !!! Can anyone help with a recipe ? Jeff Woods Camp Hill, PA (just down the street from Jeff Beinhour of the Yellow Breeches Brewery) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 08:53:46 -0500 From: "Kensler, Paul" <paul.kensler at wilcom.com> Subject: re: lifting converted keg kettles Don, I generally brew outside, by myself, using a converted keg boiler and a propane burner. The way I handle the problem is to first run off my sparge into a grant (a holding tank), then transfer that to my boiling kettle in liftable increments. My boiling kettle is on top of the propane burner, which is on top of three cinder blocks. My propane burner is the sort with a ring for the base, so its very stable and the height allows me to open up the ball valve and drain directly into my carboy after chilling (I use an immersion chiller). This sort of setup should still give you enough height to use your counterflow chiller, but you will need to set it on some sort of stand in front of the boiler. Paul Kensler Plano, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 09:01:34 -0500 From: Richard Stueven <gak at beerismylife.com> Subject: Free bottles (De Pere, Wisconsin) Hey there! If you need bottles, I've got 'em. More than 21,000 "Chuck's Famous Ale" returnable longnecks are headed for the recycling bin next week. You're invited to come take as many as you can carry before they go. They're all in need of a good cleaning, but the price is right: free! Stop by Egan Brewing (330 Reid Street, De Pere WI) during normal business hours and ask for me. The bottles are in the back of the brewery, right by the loading dock. have fun gak - -- Richard Stueven gak at beerismylife.com Egan Brewing Company De Pere, Wisconsin Beer Is My Life! http://beerismylife.com BreweriesOnTheWeb http://home.earthlink.net/~beerismylife/brewwww.htm Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:06:18 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Lifting converted-keg kettles "Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net> asked for help in figuring a safe way for two people to lift 11 gallons of hot wort. I tried replying directly, but it bounced - user unknown. The safest way to do this is to use a pump. The next safest is to raise the burner and conduct the boil at a height that will allow you to gravity transfer. Lifting 11 gallons of boiling liquid, even with help, sounds like asking for trouble. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:23:34 EDT From: "Rick Theiner " <Logic at mail.skantech.com> Subject: Sanitizers and Oxidizers Al K. asks: "What are the relative oxidising strengths of bleach solution at 200ppm free chlorine, 12.5ppm of titratable iodine iodophor solution and the working solution of a percarbonate-based sanitiser such as OneStep? Maybe it's a "lesser evil" issue? " Actually, it's not the oxidative power of sanitizers that provide effectiveness-- is that what you're asking? I'll mention that the mechanisms of all those mentioned are different, and none really rely on oxidation. But maybe that's not the issue... If you're just wondering about the oxidizing strength in terms of oxidation-reduction potential, I can put a probe into the solutions and see what happens. Rick Theiner Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:03:42 -0500 From: Andrew Ager <andrew-ager at nwu.edu> Subject: Upgrading the Brewery, advice wanted Howdy all, I'm beginning to think about upgrading my brewing system for the fall season, looking to eliminate two things that tick me off without fail: bottling and siphoning. I'm currently using a 5-gal. Gott to mash in a 5-gal. pot for boiling, and a 5-gal. bucket for the HLT. I've got a friend who's more than likely going to give up brewing, so I'm going to inherit 2 more Gotts (1 10-gal. and one 7-gal.). Now, since I live in Chicago, and in a 3rd floor apartment, I've pretty much decided that inside is where I will continue to brew. However, if anyone has advice on how to set up a pump to run hot water to various places in Gott coolers, I'm more than willing to listen, or be directed to clear WWW descriptions. My main drawback is that I know squat about electrical wiring, and only slightly more about plumbing. Welding is right out. For the new kettle, I'm probably going for something in the 8-10 gallon capacity, depending on the eventual cost of setting up other stuff. I'm going to build a basic wooden stand for the HLT, since it currently perches precariously on an empty cat litter bucket on top of the refrigerator (which has a slant to the top). Not the best situation. A cooler will be the HLT. the mash tun will remain a cooler, although probably bigger one, and including the now-classic "BB Snake" addition to the Phil's Phloating setup. Finally, I'm looking to spend no more than $250 upgrading, including the cost of a pump. That's for the actual brewing system, not for stuff like kegs, CO2 cylinders, etc. So: 1) Is this reasonable? 2) What the heck kind of outlet to these pumps run off of? Regular outlets? My apartment does have totally modern wiring, so that's a plus. Lots and lots of outlets, too. 3) How well to Gott's receive drilling extra holes in them? What do you recommend for this type of thing? 4) If I wanted to HERMSify a series of coolers running off of one kettle, would that be possible on the cheap? Hopefully, this will make the whole process a lot easier, and more fun. I'm also going to invest in one or two conicals (plastic variety) and a fridge. thanks! Andy Ager Beer Geek, Beer Judge Chicago, IL Homebrewer Ordinaire - --Chicago Beer Society -- Silver Medal Homebrew Club of the Year, 1998 -- Return to table of contents
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