HOMEBREW Digest #3035 Thu 20 May 1999

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Re: HBD Bouncer?/Water pH ("Stephen Alexander")
  Not a Beer Story ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Is Someone Baiting Me? ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  CounterPhil (Dan Listermann)
  Re:  Rye beer ("Curt Abert")
  Bottling Imperial Stout (Matt Birchfield)
  Re:chiller agitation (Dave Hinrichs)
  Re: Compression fittings for gases (John_E_Schnupp)
  keg carbonation ("Spies, Jay")
  Sankey Kegs (jslusher)
  cleaning and sanitizing? ("Sandlin, Jonathan Mark - BUS")
  Malt Flavor (Biergiek)
  Pro Brewer's Setups ("Robert G. Poirier, Jr.")
  Chill - Hot ("Perle")
  Rye Beer/Sightglass material (GuyG4)
  Two Q's on Aluminum and Grain ("Don Glass")
  Siebel ("Rob Moline")
  counterflow chiller sanitization (J Daoust)

Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! 2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99 (http://burp.org/SoFB99); Oregon Homebrew Festival 5/22/99 (http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/fest.html); Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99 (http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff) Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. **SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail! Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow" Back issues are available via: HTML from... http://hbd.org Anonymous ftp from... ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer AFS users can find it under... /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. Digests CANNOT be reprinted or reproduced in any format for redistribution unless said redistribution is at absolutely NO COST to the consumer. COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the above. Home brew clubs NOT associated with organizations having a commercial interest in beer or brewing may republish articles in their newsletters and/or websites provided that the author and HBD are attributed. ASKING first is still a great courtesy...) JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:22:03 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: HBD Bouncer?/Water pH John Wilkinson writes ... >Uh oh, I don't like the direction this is taking. Pat as Big Brother? >Don't say Steve Alexander didn't warn you. Based on my impression of mythical Pat Babcock, he is not likely to take that job or even be party to it. But it is nice to see that the policy and moderation statement (see HBD website) clearly forbids censorship of on-topic posts. The copyrights to our posts, assigned to Pat and Karl, can be interpreted as a quid pro quo for proper disposition of all posts. I don't intend to become the Ralph Nader of HBD, and I don't suspect it will ever be necessary with Pat at the wheel, but if anyone feels that they are being unjustly censored here - drop me an email. I'll see if the issue can't get the proper attention and visibility. (It's tough to argue a point if you are being censored). I still find it interesting that I get two decidedly opposing responses from people about my censorship tirade of 1998. Either that I was off my nut or that I was standing up for a principled POV. I guess it's a matter of how seriously you take the concept of 'open forum' and whether you think that all POVs should be heard - even the boring argumentative ones, Clinitest claims or the ones containing animal cruelty humor. Yes - some people seem to believe that they are or should be in charge of HBD content even within the context of beer related posts. I was recently cc:'ed on an email to the janitors implying this. Don't let your guard down. - -- Keith Alan Meeker reports that most of the water treatments he tried increase rather than decrease the water pH. I have the same experience. I have found that boiling or liming water does apparently decrease the carbonate buffering so that MUCH less acid is required to hit the brewing pH range after these procedures. As for acidifying to pH 5.5 to 5.6, I find I get good results if all my brewing water is 6.0 to 6.5. The mash (an amazingly forgiving process) hits the low 5.x's without any further adjustment. >(though the reactions are still a bit unclear to me and the role of the >phytase/phytate reaction seems to be getting short shrift). I argee with this in theory .... according to M&BS the phosphytase(s) that act to produce phytic acid which has a very high affinity for calcium ions, as the phytate and calcium interact, H ions are released and pH is reduced. 3Ca++ + 2HPO4-- <=> 2H+ + Ca(PO4)3 drops "Up to four calcium ions react in a similar manner with one molecule of phytic acid (...) which has an extremely high affinity for calcium". >(An aside, Saw Fix & Fix's recent book and in it they show a steep >decrease of amylase activity on one side of the pH curve but this is >exactly the opposite of the behavior seen in lab analysis of the purified >enzyme, anyone know what's up with that?) Say - I'm not sure if Alan has won enough national HB awards to comment on this yet (inside joke) but the figures I see on pp 168 of AoBT show a fast drop in Yield and reaction rates with increasing pH and the text attributes this to pH sensitivity of the enzymes. Yield loss may be due to inactivity of some of the enzymes which are involved in degrading the starch granules rather than in inactivity of alpha and beta amylase. I have a couple older references , like "Industrial Emzymology", Godfrey & Reichelt, 1983 show a broader activity vs pH curve in reference to brewing that Fix does. I'd really like to see the references Fix cites but don't have access at the moment. -S . Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:02:36 +1000 From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au> Subject: Not a Beer Story Numerous folk have pointed out to me that Don McLean never sang anything about dead skunks. For one who has practised this song in the shower for so many years, this comes as a dreadful shock. Just as well I didn't go pro as a Don McLean revivalist! Phil Yates. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:45:38 +1000 From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au> Subject: Is Someone Baiting Me? From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Anybody have a recipe that clones Corona? Jeff, we have just managed to put the cats behind us, please don't tempt me with a subject like this! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:20:05 -0400 From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com> Subject: CounterPhil David Humes ( humesdg1 at earthlink.net) mentioned that the CounterPhil ( no stinking trade mark symbol required) operates with the siphon system. While ergonomically this may not be quite as desirable as the pressure differential system, it has some advantages from the beer's perspective. The pressure differential system requires that the pressure in the bottle be reduced below the pressure in the keg to move the beer. This difference is a function of the head difference ( the distance between the heights of the bottle and the keg's liquid levels ) and the friction losses of the hoses and fittings along the way. This could amount to a couple of pounds difference which may not seem like much, but remember that the beer is only at about 10 pounds pressure and this difference, coupled with the agitation of the moving beer, will cause foaming. The siphon method maintains the exact same pressure in both the bottle and the keg. The beer only feels the agitation of its movement, no difference in pressure. This minimizes foaming and its surrounding problems. Dan Listermann dan at listermann.com 72723.1707 at compuserve.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:33:51 -0500 From: "Curt Abert" <abert at flanders.isgs.uiuc.edu> Subject: Re: Rye beer Greetings, Greg asks about rye beers. I've brewed several rye beers, with both rye malt and flaked rye. I think that the character that rye adds to a beer is kind of hard to describe. It can seem somewhat astringent or bitter (but not in a bad way...). The flaked rye adds more of a grainy flavor than does rye malt. In the batches I have brewed, those with rye flakes had a fuller mouthfeel (similar to an oatmeal stout), and those brewed with rye malt were similar to wheat beers. I feel that one is not preferable to the other, it just depends on what you are looking for. In either case, WATCH THE SPARGE! The worst stuck sparge I ever had was a rye malt batch. However, that was fairly early in my all-grain experience. The last time I made a rye malt beer I had no problems sparging. I have used as much as 35% rye in the grain bill and have had no problems sparging, you just have to go slow and carefully... Adding a protein rest at the beginning of the mash helps with both rye malt and flakes. I found that pre- cooking the flakes helps as well. I don't have any recipes handy, but I can send some later when I get my record book. Good Luck! Curt Abert Champaign, IL Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:51:38 -0400 From: Matt Birchfield <peridot at usit.net> Subject: Bottling Imperial Stout Hi All, A few questions about bottling my Imperial Stout ... 1-How long should it ferment in the secondary; Should it be aged in bulk or in bottles? (Brewed it on May 1st and racked to secondary May 8th when vigorous fermentation subsided) 2-How much sugar should I use for carbonation, and will I need extra yeast when priming? 3-At what temperatures should it be conditioned and stored, and how long should conditioning take? This batch's OG was 1.092, and is my first attempt at anything over 1.065, so any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Matt Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:50:54 -0500 From: Dave Hinrichs <dhinrichs at quannon.com> Subject: Re:chiller agitation Mark A Bayer wrote: >i was thinking how much easier this would be if i had a little mechanized >"lifter" that i could prop under one edge of the kettle. Why not build a little level that you give a push once and a while. *************************************************************** * Dave Hinrichs E-Mail: dhinrichs at quannon.com * * Quannon CAD Systems, Inc. Voice: (612) 935-3367 * * 6101 Baker Road, Suite 204 FAX: (612) 935-0409 * * Minnetonka, MN 55345 * * http://www.quannon.com/ * *************************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:36:19 -0700 From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com Subject: Re: Compression fittings for gases John questions me about not using compression fittings for gasses: John, I hope you don't mind if I post my reply. It's not that compression fittings won't work, it's just that they are not recommended. For connections with soft copper, flare fittings are the recommended fitting. I certainly wouldn't want to chance it with combustible (propane for one) gases, but if you leak check the connections and there are no leaks, then I guess it's your call. Again, I'm not trying to say you can't use compression fittings, they just aren't recommended. John Schnupp, N3CNL Dirty Laundry Brewery Colchester, VT 95 XLH 1200 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:53:41 -0400 From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us> Subject: keg carbonation All - Having recently acquired a chest freezer for use as a corny keg tap system, I have a queston concerning keg carbonation. (I am already somewhat familiar with draft system balancing and the use of appropriate line lengths and sizes to lessen foaming, as well as with the use of temperature/carbonation charts to achieve the appropriate number of volumes for style). My question centers on actual carbonation of beer after kegging. As I've heard in other BB's and forums, many prefer to shake the keg and add from 20 to 40 psi of co2 at anywhere from room temp to near freezing. Others tend to put the keg in the fridge, hook normal dispense pressure up to it, and forget about it. Although I'm sure both provide adequate carbonation, I'd tend to side with the latter camp. As convenience goes, it beats the hell out of shaking a full corny, and as far as consistency of carbonation, it seems to be the most reliable alternative. What's the general consensus from those of you with multiple tap systems? I plan to keep about 12 psi on the 3 beer lines at 42-44 dF, so considering this, how long would I expect it to take to carbonate a flat keg at that temp w/o agitation? If higher-psi shaking is the way to go, how do you get the keg to back itself down to my expected 12 psi dispense pressure without venting the keg and creating a foamy mess? Lastly, for those of you who have tried both, which in your opinion gives the best foam retention (or is there a difference at all) ?? TIA, Jay Spies Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery and Freezer Redesign Department Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:21:09 -0400 From: jslusher <jslusher at flash.net> Subject: Sankey Kegs Hello everyone! I recently purchased a scrap (legal mind you) a 1/4 keg (Miller) and would like to know if anyone out there uses 1/4 or even 1/2 barrels for kegging their brew. My real question is the proper cleaning of the keg. Does anyone have a pump and Sankey valve setup (I've been toying with this in my head) that they use and does it seem to work well for them. If this doesn't seem feasable, then I guess it will have a life as a kettle. Cheers guys! ************************************************ John Slusher jslusher at flash.net http://www.flash.net/~jslusher/crabs ************************************************ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:47:32 -0700 From: "Sandlin, Jonathan Mark - BUS" <SANJM304 at bus.orst.edu> Subject: cleaning and sanitizing? I plan to start doing my primary, seconadary and serving in 1/2 barrel sanke kegs. I am curious if it is possible to clean and sanitize without taking the keg apart. I plan to fill the keg through the tap with P.B.W and let sit over night. After that, I will empty the keg with CO2 pressure and then add starsan the same way. Will this work? I hate taking the kegs apart, and I can ferment in them by letting the gas escape through the out hose of the tap. Any critisisms or ideas would be greatly appreciated. Jon Sandlin Corvallis, OR 97330 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:51:57 EDT From: Biergiek at aol.com Subject: Malt Flavor There has been some discussion of late regarding beer flavor. One flavor aspect I have not yet been able to produce is a malt flavor in my Bavarian style lagers. I do know the difference between malty, sweet, and caramely (is this a word?). I think what most homebrewers refer to as malty is really caramely (from crystal malts) or sweet. If this flavor is confusing then you need to eat some chocolate malt balls to get an idea of what the malt flavor is that I am talking about ("he said balls, ha ha ha"). Anyway, how can I achieve this malt flavor that I often taste in imported German lagers? I have tried the usual techniques to achieve malt flavor with no success: 1) Yeast Strain: I have used the common Wyeast strains Munich Lager, Bavarian Lager, and Czech Lager. 2) Using imported German Munich malt as the base malt, and adding Melanoidin malt. 3) Decoction mashing and pressure cooking. 4) Extended lagering. Is a malty flavor in my German lagers unachievable at the homebrewing level, is this even too difficult for Dr. Pivo or Fred Garvin? Please help! Kyle Bakersfield, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:42:20 -0700 From: "Robert G. Poirier, Jr." <bpoirierjr at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Pro Brewer's Setups Greetings!! I've been reading through the Practical Brewer (downloadable from the MBAA's website in .pdf format, http://www.mbaa.com/education.html) - lots of VERY interesting stuff in there! Maybe not all related to brewing on the homebrew scale, but still interesting, none the less! I'm in the on-going and seemingly never ending process of planning/building my homebrewery in the basement. I plan on brewing lots of ten gallon batches (someday)! One things that's really got me thinking is the idea of having a separate mash and lauter tun, but I can't come up with an effective way of transferring the mash from one vessel to the other. The thought of moving the mash a potfull at a time does NOT excite me. How do the big boys do it? With pumps? Or do they have the mash and lauter tuns on different levels, so that the force of gravity can be utilized? And if they do use gravity, what kind of gates/valves and plumbing do they use? Ahhh, so many options, sooo many questions!! Something I'd really like to see is a detailed diagram of a pro brewers setup (the size and yearly capacity matters not a wit), along with some detailed pictures showing all the working hardware. Does a resource such as this exist in any form? A website maybe, or a book, or... ANYTHING?! I've got lots of pretty pictures of tuns and kettles, but no idea how they all work together (mechanically speaking - I've got a pretty solid understanding of the brewing process in general. Please note that I said "in general", not expert, or professional, or anything else - put those flame throwers away!! I'm the first one to admit that I do not - nor will I ever - know enough about brewing! Right Gump?? ;^) ) I look forward to any and all replies, either public or private. Now I guess it's time to get back to the drawing board... TIA! Brew On & Prosit!! Bob P. East Haven, CT Home of the B.I.G. (Beer Is Good!) Homebrew Club bob_poirier at adc.com ( at work) OR bpoirierjr at worldnet.att.net ( at home) Life on Earth is expensive, but at least it comes with a free trip 'round the sun! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:03:01 -0700 From: "Perle" <perle at postalzone.com> Subject: Chill - Hot Greetings. After the boiling comes the chilling , yet I cannot pump through my counter flow wort chiller directly from the boiler to the fermenter. The wort will come out at about 90 -95 degrees. If I gravity feed the wort it will chill to 75 - 80 degrees. Pumping is faster. Time is crucial. Yet if I recirculate this chilled wort back into the boiler for about 3 - 5 minutes the kettle temp will drop to about 150 degrees, then I can pump the wort directly to the fermenter and the temp is 75 - 80 degrees. Is this bad for the wort to be chilled then diffused into the hot wort again? My pump is a March MDXT it runs at 1750 rpm with 6 ft head. Not powerful but it is great for mash recirculation. The chiller is a Hearts super chiller. Zymurgy spring 96 has a nice article. Thanks for any info. Joe at Victory Brewery of Oregon Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:57:07 EDT From: GuyG4 at aol.com Subject: Rye Beer/Sightglass material Greg Remake, from the fabulous U of Chicago writes: "Can anyone suggest favorite commercial varieties (of rye beer) to try? Redhook makes an ale called Ryehook; are rye brews primarily ales or lagers?" All I've made are ales, I think the flavor might be a bit strong for a lager..."classic canadian prairie pilsner", anyone? Redhook rye is good, very good IMHO, but it is by no means the last word in rye beer. " What are some of the characteristics that distinguish a rye beer?" To me, a spiciness or astringency in the malt profile that compliments the hop. Rye's pretty distinctive, but if you don't know it's there, it just makes the beer taste really unique. " Some brewers claim flakes promote stuck sparges, while others blame malt. Most do agree, however, that over 20% rye can clog up the sparge. What's the difference (if any) in the final product using malt vs. flakes?" Rye is gooey. Flakes will introduce more fine grained material into your lautertun grain stratigraphy than malt, and thus more potential for clogging. Stir so it's well distributed, recirculate your sparge well, and go slow. If you're using a zapap-style lautertun, forget it, it will stick. A 92F rest (betaglucan) will help. My experience though indicates flake rye beers will eventually become crystal clear, like the one I'm drinking now, if you can stand to wait long enough, whereas malt beers will remain somewhat cloudy. I also believe that to get the same rye charachter from malt you must use 1.5 lbs rye malt where you would have used 1.0 lbs. rye flakes. Try 'em both. "Assuming I'll decide to brew a rye beer, does anyone have a favorite recipe?" Yeah...my favorite for 5 gallons has 7 lbs Maris Otter, 1.5 lbs Munich, and 2 lbs rye malt, hopped to about 45 IBU using about 1 oz amarillo hops(bitter) and 2 oz. Cascade for flavor. Try Columbus also, the citrusy character is quite complimentary to rye. Basically, if you take your stock ESB recipe and substitute between 15 and 20 % rye for basemalt, you'll make a real rye patootkicker. Yeast, well, don't tell anyone, but I've been using Nottingham and it works great, but ol wyeast 1056 will always make a dandy beer if you've just gotta screw around with a starter and oxygen. (tee hee!) Others have asked about sightglasses. For chrissakes, use teflon tubing. It doesn't melt, goes into a pipe to tubing elbow connector really well, and yeah, it's expensive, but you're only buying a foot or two, so live a little, pay five bucks. Get it at any industrial hose supplier or most large auto parts stores and stop screwing around. Cheers, Guy Gregory GuyG4 at aol.com Lightning Creek Home Brewery \Spokane, WA I don't impersonate Pat Babcock, but I wear his slogan on my back Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:45:05 PDT From: "Don Glass" <deglass at hotmail.com> Subject: Two Q's on Aluminum and Grain I am a rank but well read beginner. I am trying to get some equipment together but I live in a foreign country and there just aren't any homebrew shops around so I have to scrounge to find all my equipment. Anyways, I have been reading about buying brewpots and getting mixed signals about aluminum. One text says aluminum is bad, it will give a metallic taste to my beer...The other text says that there is no real proof that this is true. So, which is the truth....If you reply...please do not just reply which is better (I am not conducting a survey) Please back up your answer. Thanks. The other question is reguarding grain. The grain that is used for brewing is malted grain, right? Well, I think they have the malted grain here but it may be known by another name....are there any other names for the grains used for making all grain beer? What does it look like...could someone explain it to me? I realize that I am going to have to do some trial and error with the grain thing...but I would like to get some info....pictures on the net would help if anyone knows where I can find it. thanks for your help here's brew you, Don ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:05:08 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net> Subject: Siebel Enough Banch!!! Well, I am sure that we are all having a good time, but I am amazed that there has not yet been one question posed to any of the Siebel Staff, whose HeadMaster Bill Siebel agreed to open the doors to questions to that Institute from the HBD community.... So, I would like to open the door with a question directly aimed at Mr. Siebel.... How do you view the upcoming viability of the CraftBrewing segment in the US? Any projections for the next 5-10 years for 1) micros...and 2) brewpubs? Now, for a question for the technical staff.... How do you view the use of a sugar determinant, like Clinitest, in brewing? I have heard many arguments pro/con...but would you state any opinions as to it's applications? I invite the HBD to send their questions to the Siebel Staff to HBD with the "Subject Field" first word being Siebel...then your Subject.....Remember the Siebel staff has committed to answering questions from the HBD from the 17th through the 28th....and time is awasting!! Cheers! Jethro Gump Rob Moline brewer at isunet.net Lallemand jethro at isunet.net "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:52:16 -0700 From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com> Subject: counterflow chiller sanitization OK, ive got this cool triple coil counterflow chiller made with 50' of tubing. The question is, after cooling my brew, and rinsing, what can i use to make sure nothing green and fuzzy will grow between uses???? Thanks, Jerry Daoust thedaousts at ixpres.com Return to table of contents
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