---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  AHA and Zymurgy back issues ("Rick Wood")
  Re: CAP / Patience (Matthew Arnold)
  Ayinger yeast/Beer waseland ("Grant Stott")
  multi cultural middle ages beers (Mike Foster)
  Re: Patience???? (Mike Foster)
  re: Gott cooler problems.. (Chris Campagna)
  Equipment design plans ("Spence")
  Abbreviations ??? ("Spence")
  Floating Balls (Dan Listermann)
  Gott Cooler Problems (Kit Cheves)
  Beechwood ("Sieben, Richard")
  Re: RE Gott Cooler Problems (Spencer W Thomas)
  Gott Bulkhead?/Zymurgy ("Paul Gatza")
  hopped extracts (Lou.Heavner)
  Re: Abbreviations ??? (Some Guy)
  Party Pig Family #2 (Jason Jackson)
  10 Gallon Keg wanted ("Joshua Johnson")
  question frome beginner (Liamdoll420)
  RIMS time investment... (William Macher)
  Updated website ("Doug Otto")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:03:14 +1000
From: "Rick Wood" <thewoods at netpci.com>
Subject: AHA and Zymurgy back issues

Hello All,
Regarding the AHA and Zymurgy back issues.  On a number of times I have
ordered back issues of Zymurgy. Every single time I was informed that only
photocopied issues were available.  Frankly, I think it is a great service
that AHA will photocopy back issues and make them available at a reasonable
cost.  I agree that one should be informed that the issue is only available
as a photocopy.  However AHA should be congratulated for providing this
service.

Also, I must agree that non-members of an organization do not have much
business lobbying for a particular candidate.  They can, of course,  have an
opinion.  But to campaign for a candidate in such a group can be expected to
cause some hard feelings.

Rick Wood
brewing on Guam



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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:18:58 -0500
From: Matthew Arnold <revmra at iname.com>
Subject: Re: CAP / Patience

Nathan Kanous wrote:

>As a part of the Great Taste of the 
>Midwest, the Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild held a friendly 
>competition among the Wisconsin Brewers to brew a Classic American 
>Pilsner.  I don't recall all the details, but I think that they worked with 
>a fairly standardized grain bill...anyhow.  These beers were produced by a 
>number of the Wisconsin breweries and were sold as commercial products.

I took a tour of Lakefront Brewing in Milwaukee later that same year and tried
their CAP. I thought it was absolutely wonderful (although I have no idea if it
was to style or not). I asked Jim Klisch a bit about the grain bill and
hopping. I believe the grain bill was all Briess' standard two-row, but it may
have had some six-row. I know he said there was no corn or rice in it. Hops
were Clusters. I could've pulled up a chair by the tap and stayed, oh, a year
or so.

- -----
Patrick Finerty, Jr. wrote:

>primary for 1 week (unless it's not done)
>secondary for 2 weeks
>keg, chill, and force carbonate.
>drink in a day or two.

>is this too short a schedule? 

For most of my ales I usually go about 5 days in the primary and then about 9
days in the secondary (two week total). I have been known to put pale ales or
low-octane bitters on tap only a week after brew day :) The only ale I wait any
longer with is my Altbier, but I'm quite A.R. about that beer.

For some strange reason, my extract beers always had chill haze. Since I
switched to all-grain I haven't had any chill haze. It doesn't make any sense,
but that's what I've noticed. Slightly murky beer doesn't bother me anyway. I'd
rather have it not look "pretty" than take heroic efforts and end up stripping
out flavor by filtering.

Matt
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


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Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 05:59:32 +1000
From: "Grant Stott" <gstott at primus.com.au>
Subject: Ayinger yeast/Beer waseland

Phil,
If you would care to send a sample of the Ayinger yeast southward the Corio
Bay Brewers would be most grateful. We only have one billiard table between
us and non of us brew rice lagers so the Ayinger yeast may be just the thing
to liven the club up. Plus its getting cold enough to brew lagers without a
fridge now.
On a different note I'm heading to Singapore/Malaysia for 3 weeks, I expect
it will be a beer wasteland but anyone knows of any breweries or other
interesting watering holes I'd be very grateful.

p.s. Phil please don't send the skunk oil by mistake.


Grant & Yvonne Stott                         gstott at primus.com.au
Geelong Vic Australia



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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 05:53:15 -0400
From: Mike Foster <mike at asyoulikeit.org>
Subject: multi cultural middle ages beers

> From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
>
> I do a lot of research into middle ages, and renaissance brewing, with
> occasional recreations when I have time to brew.
>
> I have a LOT of sources for English recipes, and instructions, and grain
> bills dating from 1000 - 1669, but I have very little from other countries.
> I am looking to expand my resources, and repertoire.  I am looking for
> sources of information that might point me to references to Flemish,
> Belgium,  French, German, etc. recipes or grain bills, or ratios, etc. for
> these regional areas.

I've not done much research into medieval brewing yet, but I do have a book
called "A Sip Through Time", by Cindy Renfrow. Most of the recipees appear 
to be English still, but there are a few (a quick glance through found a 
Welsh braggot recipee, a Scotch ale recipee, and a recipee from 1800 BC 
Sumerria. The majority of the book, however, is devoted to non-beer
recipees.

> Replying privately would probably work if you have any suggestions.

But that would deprive other interested people (such as myself) of this
knowledge...

Of course, if you would like to discuss medieval brewing in more depth 
privately, I'm perfectly willing!

- -- 
Wolfger
http://www.asyoulikeit.org/wolfger

Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal. 
My strength lies solely in my tenacity. 
- -- Louis Pasteur


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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 05:53:50 -0400
From: Mike Foster <mike at asyoulikeit.org>
Subject: Re: Patience????

> From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
>
> Patrick Finerty jr Wrote about his fermentation schedule.
>
> >primary for 1 week (unless it's not done)
> >secondary for 2 weeks
> >keg, chill, and force carbonate.
> >drink in a day or two.
>
> >is this too short a schedule?

That's about right, if I'm in a hurry... I usually like to let the
beer age a bit longer before drinking, though. Especially the
higher-gravity brews. They seem to certainly become more
palatable if they are left to sit for 2-4 weeks in the keg/bottle
before consumption. I have, however, been in a big enough
hurry to drink a low-gravity beer after 2 weeks... 1 day
brewing + 6 days primary + 6 days secondary + 1 day
force carbonation = green beer

> I believe that since you are making 10 gallon batches you could
> spread the drinking out over several weeks.  Drinking all of that
> in a day or two could have detrimental effects on your life and
> your job.

Depends on how many friends are helping you drink the 10 gallons.
In a two-day-straight party, my friends and I can easily polish of a
5-gallon keg :-)

- -- 
Wolfger
http://www.asyoulikeit.org/wolfger

Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal. 
My strength lies solely in my tenacity. 
- -- Louis Pasteur


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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 07:47:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Campagna <campagna at umd5.umd.edu>
Subject: re: Gott cooler problems..

I had similar probelms with my Gott.  The sides AND bottom were warped to
the point that I couldn't use a false bottom, despite several
attempts.  Finally, I gave up and made a psudo-EZ masher and haven't
looked back since.  I found everything I needed to make one at the
hardware store for under $10.

Chris




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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:31:46 -0400
From: "Spence" <drwlg at coollink.net>
Subject: Equipment design plans

Is there a place one can go to view plans to make some of the equipment so
often spoken about in HBD, such as RIMS, etc...?

Spence Graham

If you're not bleedin' you're not having fun!



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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:29:14 -0400
From: "Spence" <drwlg at coollink.net>
Subject: Abbreviations ???

As a relatively new reader of HBD, I was wondering if someone might drop a
post about what the various abbreviations used routinely stand for?  Such as
MCAB, CAP, RIMS, (and many more!) etc...  This would be quite helpful in
further climbing up on the learning curve and in deciphering the golden
nuggets of truth presented herein!  I enjoy HBD and have learned a lot in
the process.

Spence Graham

If you're not bleedin' you're not having fun!




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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:43:44 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Floating Balls

Dana Edgell  ( EdgeAle at cs.com ) asks about floating balls to reduce surface
area  in a mash.  I have used them to collect hop resins during
fermentation and they do that quite well, but since I mash in a cooler that
has a lid there does not seem to be much point to using them for mashing in
my operation.  A source is US Plastics in Lima, OH.  1 800 537-9724.  ( No
affiliation ect.ect.)

They come:
 .75"  Dia.    $29.74 per case of 1000   270 / sq. ft.
1.5"    "     $104.39  "      "       " 1000        74     "
1.75"  "       $84.49    "     "        "   500      43     "  
4"        "      143.15    "     "       "    100       10      "

These are the price for Polypropylene.  HHPP is about 30% more.

Dan Listermann   dan at listermann.com  72723.1707 at compuserve.com


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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 07:02:42 -0700
From: Kit Cheves <c.cheves at ericsson.com>
Subject: Gott Cooler Problems

In Digest #3326, GPEYCO at cs.com wrote regarding his cheesy Gott coolers:

>This question should be worth a cheap giggle. Where in the North San 
>Diego County (or even nearby) can I find these coolers? I figure if I take 
>the false bottom with me for sizing I should be able to locate at least one 
>that will fit. I've blown the gas budget for this month looking.

When I was building my 2-tier system last year, I saw them at Airgas on
Clairemont Mesa Blvd (just east of HWY 163).  Without a contractor's
discount, they were pretty expensive, so I bought mine mail order from
Homebrew Adventures. I have not noticed my cooler being extremely out of
round, you may have gotten a bad one.  

It's funny that I should read your post today, because last night I had a
stuck mash due to grains leaking around the edges of my Phalse bottom and
clogging things up.  I think it "phloated" on me, so I'll take precautions
to prevent this next time.   

>I'm still playing with the idea of where to place the runoff tube. This might 
>sound like a silly question but I routinely manufacture my own parts.

If you remove the factory spigot from a Gott Cooler, a mini-keg bung fits
nearly perfectly in the resulting hole.  If you put a short piece of copper
tubing (~6") inside a shorter piece of plastic tubing (so the copper sticks
out the ends), and then run this through the hole in the mini-keg bung, you
can attach the runoff tube to each end of the copper tube with a hose clamp
or cable tie.  This bulkhead fitting is tight enough to resist leaking, yet
pulls apart easily for cleaning.

Although I'm not affiliated with Dan Listerman in any way, I really like
the Phalse Bottom, as do several of my brewing friends.  Aside from an
occasional Phloating incident, they work quite well and are a good value.

Cheers!

Kit Cheves
San Diego, CA



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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:04:56 -0400
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: Beechwood

JohanNico asked about beechwood chips, specfically why beechwood?

Beechwood imparts very little flavor to the beer, unlike what oak chips
would do.  I made a split batch last year of brown ale and used beechwood in
one of the secondaries and none in the other.  The beer treated with
beechwood cleared about 2 weeks sooner than the other.  The beechwood is put
on the bottom of the fermenter before you add the beer and then it floats on
top until the secondary fermentation slows down enough to allow the chips to
sink.  On their way down, yeast will tend to cling to the wood, thus
clarifying the beer.  There was a barely detectable taste difference ( I
brought samples to my homebrew club) but no one could identify it.  I would
not say it was better or worse than the other beer, just different.
Traditionally, beer kegs and fermentors were made of beechwood I believe, so
no one would have EVER noticed a taste change due to using beechwood chips.
My father used to be the brewmaster at Sieben's brewery (see my cousin's
page on it here )http://www.io.com/~tweek/Siebens/index.html  and he had a
very low opinion of breweries that had to resort to gelatin or
fishguts(isinglass) to fine their beer.  I can't say that I see any harm in
those products myself, but dad was a traditionalist, so I tend to be as well
by default...go figure.

I was able to purchase beechwood curls from E.C.Kraus in Independence,
MO.Orders (VISA/Mastercard) can be placed at 1-800-254-7448.  No
affiliation, just a customer myself.  If anyone knows of another source for
beechwood chips, I would like to know of it as well.  
I cut the curls into pieces about 1 inch square so I can get them in and out
of a glass carboy easily.  You need to boil the chips for 15 minutes before
first use or the beechwood will add too much flavor to the beer.  Also, they
can be re-used if you clean them.  My procedure has been to rinse them well
to get all the visible yeast off of them, followed by 15 minutes of boiling.
Then I let them air dry for  a few days.  Finally, I put them in a mason jar
and pressure can them dry so they are sterile and ready to use whenever I
need them.  
Rich Sieben
Island Lake, IL




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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:18:25 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: RE Gott Cooler Problems 

But there's already a hole with flat surround in the side of the
cooler.  I'm not sure I see where your problem came in.  Unless you
drilled a NEW hole?

The problem I'd have with going through the bottom is that you then
can't set the cooler down anywhere.  Or am I missing something?

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


>>>>> "Jonathan" == Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org> writes:

    Jonathan> On my first cooler, I went out where the manufacturer
    Jonathan> had intended, through the side. However, as the side is
    Jonathan> curved, sealing can be somewhat problematic. My second
    Jonathan> one I went through the bottom, and it was much easier to
    Jonathan> seal. 


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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:30:20 -0600
From: "Paul Gatza" <paulg at aob.org>
Subject: Gott Bulkhead?/Zymurgy

Back in my What's Brewin' days, a customer came in and showed me that a
party keg (mini-keg) bung fits perfectly in the hole in a Gott cooler. Just
pop the center plug out of the bung, insert the bung in your Gott and run
three-eighths tubing through. I regularly use that system at home with no
problems.

Regarding photocopied versions of Zymurgy back issues, the first ten issues
of Zymurgy were plain paper documents, followed by a period of glossy covers
with newsprint pages. About a quarter of my Zymurgy personal collection from
1982 to 1991 is a photocopied cover with photocopied pages. My assumption is
that many of the back issues sold out and a photocopy version was seen as
preferable to not having any version available. The cost of reprinting would
not be worth the return. We are currently discussing an in-house ad focused
on back issues. I'll find out what issues we only have photocopy versions of
and price them less when we put that ad together.

Several Zymurgy writers have spoken about their positive interactions with
Ray Daniels as editor of Zymurgy. Here is a little more of how it works.
Some of the content that gets printed in Zymurgy bubbles up as ideas through
the AHA BOA or emails or the TalkBack forum (which Ray then finds the proper
writer for). Some articles come in as something a member was interested in
and decided to write about. I handle content related to association and club
news. Most article ideas come from Ray. When Ray and I finalize the content
for a particular issue, we pass that list on to Stephanie for the art and
production side and to Julia for the advertising side. As editor, Ray's
roles are to determine content, assign stories, communicate with writers,
edit content, help Julia with advertising ideas and carry Zymurgy through
the production processes with Stephanie. Ray's first issue as editor
(May/June) is clearly the best we have had in my two years at the AHA.

Paul Gatza (mailto:/paulg at aob.org)
Director, American Homebrewers Association
736 Pearl St., Boulder, CO 80302        voice(303)447-0816 x 122
fax (303) 447-2825
Join the AHA at http://www.beertown.org





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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:34:27 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: hopped extracts

     I've never used hopped extracts before, but was recently given two
     kits.  I plan to combine them in lieu of adding sugar or extra extract
     to make a single 5 gallon batch.  I expect this will be pretty much a
     crapshoot as to what I end up with, but I was wondering if there is an
     accepted method of calculating bitterness when using hopped extracts?
     Any suggestions or guidelines would be appreciated.  How do all the
     folk who have developed recipe software handle this?  As best I can
     tell, they don't.

     Both kits are of the kind that recommend little or no boiling in order
     to preserve hop flavor and aroma.  I am somewhat skeptical, but intend
     to brew them using an untested process.  First I will boil enough
     water for a full boil for 15 min or so to sanitize.  I will have my
     immersion chiller in the kettle for the boil.  The last 5 min I intend
     to add an ounce of cascade hops.  Then I will turn off the heat and
     add the extract.  I will mix it and let it set for 10-15 min to
     pastuerize and then start cold water through the chiller.  After
     chilling, I will pitch on the yeast from a 5 gal batch of an English
     brown ale using Danstar Manchester.  I will aerate and open ferment
     overnite and then drop the fermenter to a "secondary" with airlock the
     next morning.  Any comments or feedback on this process?

     Cheers!

     Lou Heavner - Austin, TX


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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 14:03:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Abbreviations ???

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Spence Graham intone:

> As a relatively new reader of HBD, I was wondering if someone might drop a
> post about what the various abbreviations used routinely stand for?  Such as
> MCAB, CAP, RIMS, (and many more!) etc...  This would be quite helpful in
> further climbing up on the learning curve and in deciphering the golden
> nuggets of truth presented herein!  I enjoy HBD and have learned a lot in
> the process.

 MCAB: Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing
 CAP: Classic American Pilsner
 RIMS: Recirculating Infusion Mashing System
 RDWHAHB: Relax, Don't Worry, Have A Home Brew
 HBD: Home Brew Digest
 AHA: American Hombrewers Association
 FWH: First Wort Hopping
 HERIMS: Heat Exchanger Recirculating Infusion Mashing System
 HERMS: Same as above
 NHC: National Homebrewers' Convention
 FWIW: For What It's Worth
 IMHO: In my Humble Opinion
 ANAL: Am Not A Lawyer
 TTYL: Talk To You Later
 TIA: Thanks In Advance

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:24:07 -0500
From: Jason Jackson <jcjackson at jrpower.com>
Subject: Party Pig Family #2

I have my second and final Party Pig Family for sale. The last set sold
in two hours. 1rst come.....
the family includes:

2 - Party Pig Kegs.
2 - New pressure pouches.
1 - Priming air pump
1 - Filling stand.
1 - Set of instructions.
For more info - www.partypig.com

This set was used once, now I'm on to full size kegging! Will ship
anywhere in the US.

$50.00 shipping included. please respond to Jason at - torula at yahoo.com



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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 14:44:55 -0400
From: "Joshua Johnson" <jjohnson at cctlabs.com>
Subject: 10 Gallon Keg wanted

I am looking for a 10 gallon ball lock keg - I have looked at a couple =
of web stores but people seem to be out of them.  If anyone knows a =
source for these creatures please e-mail me.



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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:14:05 EDT
From: Liamdoll420 at aol.com
Subject: question frome beginner

I just started the primary fermentation two days ago and the air lock has 
already almost completely stopped its activity.  Is this normal for some 
beers?  What should I do with it?


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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:28:09 -0400
From: William Macher <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: RIMS time investment...

Hi All,

Greg [GPEYCO at cs.com] wrote:

>Friends, Rimsers and countrymen

>I've been working on a rims system on and off for a bout 6 
months now.

[snip]

>I hope that some adventurous types will give me a hand 
>with this because building this project has been a PITA so 
>far.

>Fortunately I've been blessed with ungodly amount of 
>patience (and great advice from friends).

I just can't let Greg's comment slip by! 

The time investment required was my biggest surprise during 
the building project that evolved into my revRIMS. 

Soooooooo, if you are thinking of building a RIMS, or 
similar system, heed Greg's implied warning: It WILL take 
more time and effort THAN YOU FIRST IMAGINE. But don't let 
this scare you away either. The time is well spent. The 
results are rewarding. Brewing can become even more fun!

And then there is the time needed for refinements after the 
first batch doesn't go as smoothly as expected, but who 
cares, right?

No blood spilled, but pleanty of sweat and tears...

What's a hobby for anyway?

Bill Macher   macher at telerama.lm.com   Pittsburgh, Pa   USA







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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:45:15 -0700
From: "Doug Otto" <beerguy at hopdog.com>
Subject: Updated website

I posted URL information for my quasi-herms setup quite awhile ago.  I've
recently updated the site to include a Bulletin Board that you may or may
not find useful.  Right now, it could really use some users adding content.

Please check it out and let me know what you think.

http://www.hopdog.com/

- --
Doug Otto
Hop Dog Brewing
beerguy at hopdog.com
Carmichael, CA  USA



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---