HOMEBREW Digest #3348 Sat 10 June 2000

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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Brewing software. (Victor Macias)
  FW: THANKS DOCTOR CONE! / GIVE MEAD A BREAK! ("Hill, Steve")
  pH meter arcana (AJ)
  Competition Announcement!! (Eric Tepe)
  yeast identities sought (Randy Ricchi)
  Filtering (Alan Davies)
  Mash Percs? ("Aaron Sepanski")
  Meanwhile, back on the ranch... (Some Guy)
  Re: Fosters recipe (Lance Levsen)
  Going to Toronto (Lance Levsen)
  Pride of Ringwood ("Richard Pass")
  tales of transplants and other horrors. ("Dr. Pivo")
  re: HBD  at  NHC ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Thermometers ("Jimmy Hughes")
  how to calculate SRM ("FLEMING, JOE")
  Grant's Imperial Stout recipe request (Rick Pauly)
  iodophor ("Dalibor Jurina")
  Thermometers-follow-up ("Jimmy Hughes")
  boil oxidation (Marc Sedam)
  Spider mite repellent ("John Watts")
  Training hops ("Doug Moyer")
  Dan's heat question ("Alan Meeker")
  Schaefer (Scott Abene)
  beer and BP ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Oregon Fruit ("Steve")
  HSA, etc.. ("Alan Meeker")
  Re: re: HBD  at  NHC (Some Guy)
  floor malted Maris Otter (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Schaefer, was: more favorites (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Schaefer, was: more favorites (John Adsit)
  HSA experiment (Paul Shick)
  Father/Grandfather favorites (Bill.X.Wible)
  HSA (Jim Bermingham)
  Mead & Cider guidelines ("Alison, Colin, Scott Birdwell")
  mash out (Jim Liddil)
  Vittles Vault (AJ)
  MIY2K ("Ken Schramm")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 10:13:50 -0700 From: Victor Macias <VMacias at foxsports.net> Subject: Brewing software. Greetings. Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but in case it hasn't, I've found the Beer Recipator spreadsheet http://hbd.org/recipator to be extremely helpful to me, a novice "recipe formulator". It's been very accurate with my brewing setup (5-gal-extract-back-yard-propane-burner...). It's easy to fiddle with different ingredients and amounts, and it figures gravity, IBUs, volume adjustments, extract efficiency, etc. The beers that I've made with the Recipator have been some of my best. Check it out!!! Victor Macias Pacific Gravity Homebrewers Culver City, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:44:30 -0400 From: "Hill, Steve" <SHill at advanta.com> Subject: FW: THANKS DOCTOR CONE! / GIVE MEAD A BREAK! > I would like to thank the Dr. for the DAP feeding suggestion. My friend > and I are trying our hands at a sami-clone. Lets just say that after > adding the DAP with some simple sugars for feeding, it is like primary > fermentation all over again. Dr. Cone, please come to our digest more > often, PLEASE!?!?!?! > > As for the mead controversy for the last couple of weeks. I vote to keep > it in and let judges evaluate it to the best of their abilities. I have > brewing mead for almost 4 years now. Why??? Because my other half hates > beer (and definitely hated the first couple of batches of mead too.) But > lets just say, thanks to my report cards from the contests and taking what > was said to heart -- and for that matter, discarding the negative or > incorrect suggestions, that ribbons are coming my way at contests, and now > my fiancee and family are asking when the next bottle of mead is coming > their way!!! > > As for the judging part and me brewing mead. Do I like mead? I can > appreciate it for what it is worth. Do I judge it, absolutely! I have > learned a lot and apply A LOT of it to beer making! (15 gallon herms > system -- all grain 2 years, beer brewing 5 years-- I feel I need to give > my credentials on the HBD as not to get verbally killed which will > probably happen anyway) And the judges I have met in the mead and (cider > category) have always volunteered for that position. Why, probably > because they have some sort of experience or niche for meads. > > At our club meetings some members have come to me for suggestions and > CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. And not to pat myself on the back, one member > asked me questions for over 2 hours about mead. Guess what, he took first > place in a contest and almost won best of show (judges felt that a mead > should not win best of show for beer contest). Not too shabby for his > first mead. Do I feel I contributed to his success, not really. But if I > have helped even one person to be inspired to brew/ferment something that > was intriguing and it kept the heritage alive, I have done my part. > > Take things for what they are, and move on. Life is too short! > > Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 14:36:46 -0400 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: pH meter arcana I meant to comment on the pH meter - conductivity question yesterday but was so wrapped up in cleaning up after myself that I forgot. What the pH meter does is develop a voltage across a thin glass membrane which voltage is dependent upon the difference in hydrogen ion concentrations on the two sides. The membrane is formed into a bulb and the bulb filled with a solution at a particular pH. The "hot" electrode is in this solution. The outside of the bulb is the other side of the membrane and its potential must be conveyed to the "neutral" side of the meterting circuit. This is accomplished via the "reference" electrode which sits in the solution being tested. The connection between the outside of the bulb and the reference electrode is through the solution itself so while the electrode does not measure the conductivity of the solution , finite conductivity is required of it. While they are extremely minute, currents must flow through the solution. If the solution is pure water, the conductivity is extremely low and some meters have difficulty obtaining stable readings. This situation is remedied by adding an "ion strength adjustor" which is a neutral salt chosen to enhance conductivity without changing pH. Calibration is done using special buffers which contain the ISE. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 19:06:19 -0400 From: Eric Tepe <erictepe at fuse.net> Subject: Competition Announcement!! Hear Ye, Hear Ye, Beer and Sweat, Cincinnati's premier homebrew competition operated by the Bloatarian Brewing League is coming August 19th. What is Beer and Sweat? It is (to my limited knowlege) the nation's only "keg only" homebrew competition. Entries can be in corny kegs, sankey type kegs, party pigs, mini-kegs, even 2 liters with carbonator caps. If you have some other draft system then enter the beer and bring it on down to the competition. Last year we had 114 homebrew entries with Mark Irwin of SODZ in Columbus, OH taking the BOS prize. In addition to the homebrew side we also have "King of the Queen City" which is a friendly competition for professional brewers that are located or distribute to the Ohio Valley region around Cincinnati. Last year Miami Trails Brewing beat out hometown favorite BarrelHouse as well as Hoster's (Columbus), Watson Brothers (Cincinnati), and Great Lakes Brewing (Cleveland) for the gold. There are great raffle prizes and entertainment to keep things hopping well into the night. Beer and Sweat is held at the Howard Johnson Hotel in Sharonville Ohio (just north of Cincinnati) and we do have rooms blocked off for those with long drives and/or those with the intention of imbibing a little to much. So, if you are a homebrewer in the region (OH, KY, IN, MI, WV, VA, MO, TN) and want to have a great time, fire up that kettle, brew your best beer (because competition is steep) and bring it on over August 19th. Entries will only be accepted if they are pre-registered. To register and find out more, visit www.hbd.org/bloat. If you would like to judge, you can register on the web site as well. If you have any questions please e-mail me at erictepe at fuse.net. Thanks for your time Eric R. Tepe Organizer-Beer and Sweat 2000 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:37:39 -0400 From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us> Subject: yeast identities sought I was on the Wyeast web-page and noticed a few strains that were new and interesting to me, and I was wondering if anyone could comment on their personal experience using the yeast, or knew something about their origins. 1010 american wheat yeast - A dry fermenting, true top cropping yeast which produces a dry, slightly tart, crisp beer, in American hefeweisen style. Flocculation low, apparent attenuation 74-78%. (58-74o F). Could this be the strain Widmer uses? 1099 Whitbread ale yeast ( Not 1098 British ale yeast from whitbread) -A mildly malty and slightly fruity fermentation profile; not as tart and dry as 1098 and much more flocculant. Clears well without filtration. Flocculation high; apparent attenuation 68-72%. (64-75o F) Obviously, Whitbread origin. Has anyone tried it? How is it? 1318 London Ale yeast III - From traditional London brewery with great malt and hop profile. True top cropping strain, fruity, very light, soft balanced palate, finishes slightly sweet. Flocculation - high; apparent attenuation 71-75%. (64-74o F). This one really sounds appealing to me because of the top-cropping. I use Samuel Smith's yeast often, which is a top cropper, and would like to try something new for a change, but still go with a top-cropper. The description of this really sounds good. I would really like to know where this one came from. 3638 bavarian wheat yeast - Top cropping hefeweisen yeast with complex flavor and aroma. Balance of banana and bubble gum esters with lichi and apple/plum esters and cloveness. Flocculation low; apparent attenuation 70-76%. (64-75o F) Hefe-weizen is another style I really like and have brewed many times, and with many different strains. My favorites over the years have been Brewtek CL 92 German Wheat, YeastLabs W51 (I think), and the weizen yeast from Whitelabs. This new one really sounds interesting too. Anyone know of it's origins? TIA. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:33:10 +1000 From: Alan Davies <afjc at cnl.com.au> Subject: Filtering I have came to the conclusion I will have to filter my beer. I have tried finings etc. Could I have suggestions as to the best ways to mechanicaly or chemicaly to do this. I am toying with the idea in using air induced into the wurt after fermentation to act as a defloculator what do you think. Any suggestion would be appreciated. My brewing is by Rims. Alan Davies. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:6:59 -0700 From: "Aaron Sepanski" <madaarjul at earthlink.net> Subject: Mash Percs? I am very sorry if I implies a mash percolating system. I should have been more specific. What I meant to say was in England, there are breweries that percolate their boil. I'm really sorry for the mix up. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:25:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: Meanwhile, back on the ranch... Yeast ranch, that is! Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... Well, it's been five days. Time for a check on the ranch and to bring the wort volume up a bit. Inspection shows that "Mystery Lager" and "Belgian Abbey" have joined the dark side. The flasks contining these samples were inhabited by a couple of nasty slime molds. Ah, well: I guess one should expect such things from stuff stored in the bottom of the refrigerator for four years. Disconcerting, still, since the slants were sealed and all. My aseptic technique failed me at one end of the process or the other. Probably the cleaning/sanitition of the slant mouth at transfer into the flask, but who knows. St. Louis Lager, Irish Ale, Orval and Bavarian Lager are each showing some sediment. The control is clear. Each flask, including the control, were brought up to 30 ml with oxygenated wort from an autoclaved starter. The saga continues... - -- - See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock "The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged from my yeast lab Saturday Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 22:48:00 -0600 From: Lance Levsen <l.levsen at printwest.com> Subject: Re: Fosters recipe Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> writes: > I wouldn't be surprised if they brew some here so the Canadians can drink > imported Foster's too. > > Jeff > Very possible. Molson's merged with the Fosters Brewing Group in 1989, then subsequently formed an alliance with Miller Brewing Co. in '93. However, in '97 Molson Companies and Foster's Brewing Group bought back the 20% of Molson Breweries owned by Miller Brewing Co. This effectively allowed Molson Breweries 50% of Molson Companies and 50% of Fosters Brewing. Then in '98 The Molson Companies bought back the 50% of Molson Breweries owned by Foster's Brewing. Having said all that, I believe that the Fosters available here (Canada) is domestic. Cheers - -- Lance Levsen, Programmer Product Innovation,Web Development PWGroup - S'toon. 477-3166 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 23:10:02 -0600 From: Lance Levsen <l.levsen at printwest.com> Subject: Going to Toronto I'll be heading to the Toronto area at the end of the month, then the wkend/bank holiday to Niagra/St. Catherines . . . any good brewpubs to visit? Cheers, - -- Lance Levsen, Programmer Product Innovation,Web Development PWGroup - S'toon. 477-3166 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:59:36 +1000 From: "Richard Pass" <richard.pass at anu.edu.au> Subject: Pride of Ringwood Bill Wible wrote about Pride of Ringwood with stated alpha acid content of 6.8% In 25 years of brewing in this wide brown land I've never encountered Pride of Ringwood hops with an alpha acid rating below 8%. I'm not saying they have never existed. Just I've never seen 'em (Not that I look very much). They are mostly to be found in the range 9.5% to 10.5%. Just my $.02 worth. Brother Pass-the-bottle Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 12:34:30 +0200 From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se> Subject: tales of transplants and other horrors. Richard wrote that Alan wrote that Steve wrote: > Steve wrote to doc Pivo: > > >>" I have noticed that in your field physicians > >>are not required to personally contract every disease they treat," > > >Wait a minute, are you telling me that old doc Pivo is a /medical/ doc?? > >Shudder. > > >-Alan Meeker > >Baltimore, MD (that's Maryland, not M.D.) > > He sure is Alan, and last time he was out this way it was all I could do to > prevent him demonstrating his liver transplant technique after dinner. This is Steve speculating and rumour mongering as per usual and it is an entirely unfounded one. Actually, I'm a Mycoethologist. I'm surprised at Richard for supporting this nonsense with the tale of the transplant. It was his Bock that put me in the carving mood, and I was really only going to show a "neat trick" that he could show-off next time he was at the Ashram. I wasn't that concerned about Ziggy's tissue type, as I've found a "Cream Ale Infusion" does a good job of preventing transplant rejection (I think it's the Nitrogen). Besides, I'm really quite sure you could use a new one, Richard. Dr. Pivo LXXXVI Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 07:06:30 -0400 From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com> Subject: re: HBD at NHC Mark Ohrstrom writes: Time is fast approaching for the MIY2K edition of the NHC. How 'bout a rendezvous of HBD stalwarts, flame mongers, lurkers, miscreants, rabble rousers and the like in Livonia? With just a little organization, we should be able to "announce our presence with authority." Sounds like a reasonable, no an inevitable plan. Last year a lot of us wrote the HBD initials on our name tags to make it easy to recognize each other. That's simple and we can certainly do it again. Since you're more or less local, if you want to organize something more elaborate that would be great too. Probably a bit late (maybe for next year?), but it would be fun to have HBD members take a shift in the hospitality suite. Mark Tumarkin Gainesville, FL Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 07:41:02 -0400 From: "Jimmy Hughes" <inspector at bmd.clis.com> Subject: Thermometers I have just purchased a "MiniTemp" Noncontact thermometer from W. W. Grainger for $90.00. It is an infrared reader, looks kind of like the things that Drs. stick in kids ears. It has a problem reading the temp of shiny objects, such as aluminum or SS. Temp range 30-500F Accuracy +-2% of reading or +-3.5F, whichever is greater I will keep you posted after doing some tests Happy trails to you, 'til we meet again.............. Check out the free items, go to, http://www.ncinspections.com scroll down, click on the free after rebate link........ Save money, enjoy........ Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:17:00 -0400 From: "FLEMING, JOE" <JOE.FLEMING at spcorp.com> Subject: how to calculate SRM Anybody know how to calculate the color (SRM) of a beer recipe? Thanks, Joe Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 08:31:48 -0400 From: Rick Pauly <flp2m at virginia.edu> Subject: Grant's Imperial Stout recipe request Has any one come close to making a Grants Imperial? I have seen published some info on the grain bill which was pale,black and carmel with some honey. No percentages or info on what type of carmel or black malt. thanks, Rick Pauly Charlottesville, VA Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:36:23 +0200 From: "Dalibor Jurina" <dalibor.jurina at ri.tel.hr> Subject: iodophor Hello, Since I`m from Croatia all sanitizers used by Homebrewers from other continents are a bit SF to me. Bleach is available but I have some SS parts. Is there anything other than Iodophor which can be found here (if I have more choices something maybe comes out) Thanks, Dalibor Jurina Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:57:08 -0400 From: "Jimmy Hughes" <inspector at bmd.clis.com> Subject: Thermometers-follow-up For more info on the infrared go to http://www.raytek.com/ Happy trails to you, 'til we meet again.............. Check out the free items, go to, http://www.ncinspections.com scroll down, click on the free after rebate link........ Save money, enjoy........ Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 08:58:44 -0400 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: boil oxidation Hey Dave: I've taken you up on the experiment, but the beers aren't done yet. Since Jeff Renner now has me addicted to producing a good CAP (can I get a link for the Ayinger yeast?) I made one a few months ago. First it was good, then it was great, then it went straight to hell. The staling process was about as subtle as jumping off a cliff. Since I made special care to avoid wort splashing (y'all have me paranoid) I might be willing to attribute it to your thoughts. Soooooo... I brewed another CAP at the beginning of May, but this time had the kettle covered with the lid held open about 2" with a wooden spoon. I can say that I noticed a stronger boil with less evaporation. Wound up with more beer than I expected. I just gave it a diacetyl rest (whether it needed it or not) and plan to rack to the keg next week. I'll give the final report in August. Cheers! Marc Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:11:57 -0500 From: "John Watts" <watts at radiks.net> Subject: Spider mite repellent My father-in-law's garden has always had problems with spider mites. Last year I ran across a book on companion planting that suggested planting garlic between the other plants. Did that last year and no sign of the nasty little buggers at all. Just pick up a head at the local grocery store, break out the cloves, soak them in water for a few days, then plant the ones that look like they're developing roots. Rgds John Watts watts at radiks.net Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:16:52 -0400 From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com> Subject: Training hops Todd Goodman <tgoodman at sonusnet.com> asks: "What do people tend to use to train their hops?" I originally tried positive reinforcement. Unsuccessful, I then switched to bribery, but recently, I've realized that my hops are too unruly for such gentle methods. Remember, "spare the rod, spoil the cone". Brew on! Doug Moyer Training hops for deer consumption in Salem, VA Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity "There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'" ~ Dave Barry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:51:06 -0400 From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: Dan's heat question Dan Diana asks: >Can anyone out there resolve a discrepancy between two references? I am >trying to find a reasonable estimate of the heat generated during >fermentation. DeClerck's A Textbook of Brewing (Vol1, p. 420) provides a >value of 178 calories/kg sugar. In contrast, MBAA's Practical Brewer (p. >165) provides an esitmate of 160 Kcal/KG sugar. The numerical values are >reasonably close but I am really unclear on which units to believe. A three >order of magnitude difference leads me to believe one is a typo, but which >one? Dan, ballparking it - for glucose, complete combustion produces about 700 kcal/mole which is 180 grams. This gives about 3900 kcal/kg for glucose so the closer, and probably correct, value is the MBAA figure. It is much less than the figure for the complete combustion because the yeast are not taking the sugars all the way down to CO2 (they stop at ethanol) and are also not releasing all the liberated energy as heat (some is trapped in chemical bonds in the compounds in the yeast cells). If, as seems likely, the MBAA value is correct then it works out to a potential total temp. increase of about 15 degC for a 5 gallon batch having 10% fermentable sugar by weight which sounds close to the 10dgeC value I've heard bantied about in the past... -Alan Meeker Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 06:59:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Abene <skotrat at yahoo.com> Subject: Schaefer Ahhh... I remember it well... I still hum the "Schaefer City" jingle on occasion. -Scott ===== ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net> http://www.skotrat.com (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page) "The More I know about beer politics, The more I wish I made 120k" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:07:29 -0400 From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com> Subject: beer and BP >>The doctor demonstrated the effect as he took my friend's blood pressure before and after drinking a 7 oz. Bud. << It would seem indicative of nothing, the anxiety of being cut off of a beer ration at hearing the results could cause the BP rise. >> I seem to get heartburn after drinking highly hopped beers.<< I do too, _if_ that beer also has a high degree of residual sugar; and many micro's that are highly hopped do have considerable residual sugar. Gulden Draak is one that pops to mind, a nice tasting beer but the RS kills me. A beer with 60+ IBUs would be pretty untasty if fermented to dryness. N.P. Lansing Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:52:36 -0400 From: "Steve" <stjones1 at chartertn.net> Subject: Oregon Fruit Greetings all. I'm brewing a fruit weizen beer for the summer and I'm using the Oregon Fruit puree for the first time. I'm doing 10 gallons, and using a can of Cherry in 5 and Raspberry in 5 (in the secondary). According to the labels, the Cherry puree (95 per serving, 11 servings per can) has 1045 calories and 132 grams of sugar, and the Raspberry puree (45 per serving, 12 servings per can) has 540 calories and 108 grams sugar. Does anyone kow this translates to specific gravity? I'd like to know the number of gravity points that each will contribute, either the total per can or the points per gallon for 5 gallons. Thanks for your help. Steve 5.58S, 1.24E rennerian State of Franklin Homebrewers http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:10:08 -0400 From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: HSA, etc.. Concerning my question on the possibility of HSA during the wort boil Steve wrote: . >In Bamforth [JIB 105, #4, pp237-242,1999], "Enzymic and non-enzymic >oxidation in the Brewhouse: A theoretical Consideration", Bamforth reports >oxygen solubility of water in equilibrium w/ air to be 3.8ppm at 60C, and >2.8ppm at 75C. About 20% lower yet in 10P wort. It''s low, but not >zero-ish. Yes, but I'm wondering about HSA during a roiling boil (100+ degC) where the solubility is pretty much zero. I'm not so much concerned with the oxidation that occurs before this. Yes, I do believe the evidence that it occurs is convincing but I have already taken all reasonable steps that I can, within the limitations of my set-up, to minimize this. It is just that I have recently moved to outdoor boiling and am wondering whether or not I should take pains to limit air exposure to the surface of the boil... >I should send you a copy Alan Please do! Regarding Doc Pivo: >Wait a minute, are you telling me that old doc Pivo is a /medical/ doc?? >Shudder. >>I hope so, he reported digging infected tissue out of a knee a bit ago. But was it a human knee? animal's? live? dead? his own? it's sounding like another HBD mommily! and Phil chimes in: >But on the subject of HSA, Steve Alexander throws down the gauntlet and >challenges Doc Pivo on the matter financially. Come on Steve, this is >getting a little bit silly. I agree, though it was Pivo who first suggested the $$ challenge (see, I /have/ been paying at least some attention!) -Alan Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:21:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: Re: re: HBD at NHC Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... Mark Tumarkin offers: > Sounds like a reasonable, no an inevitable plan. Last year a lot of us wrote > the HBD initials on our name tags to make it easy to recognize each other. > That's simple and we can certainly do it again. Since you're more or less > local, if you want to organize something more elaborate that would be great > too. Probably a bit late (maybe for next year?), but it would be fun to have > HBD members take a shift in the hospitality suite. > > Mark Tumarkin > Gainesville, FL I don't believe there'll be a point in time during the running of the Hospitality Suite that there WON'T be at least one HBD member behind the bar :-) Remember: the HBD server LIVES in Livonia... - -- - See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock "The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged from my yeast lab Saturday Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:14:48 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: floor malted Maris Otter Brewers I posted a few weeks ago that Crisp floor malted maris Otter. It appears I was mistaken. They were the first producers of MO I had heard of, and theirs is still distributed in the US, but it is not floor malted, and they apparently do not floor malt. Hope no one went on a wild goose chase. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:23:59 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Schaefer, was: more favorites I wrote: >Of course, that would be a CAP. And as for specifics, you're in luck. See >Ben Jankowski"s excellent Brewing Techniques (January/February 1994) >article "The Bushwick Pilsners: A Look at Hoppier Days." It would have been nice if I had included the URL, don't you think? It's http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.1/jankowski.html. (I wonder if its absence was the work of that mysterious line snipper in the HBD server?) John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us> wrote: >As the father of a homebrewer and >on not far from being old enough at least to be the grandfather of one, >let me introduce a caution. > >When I first started drinking beer in my old haunts in upstate New York, >I had my favorites, too. ... If my son ever decides to honor me >and clone it, I will ask, "What the Hell were you thinking?" I think the situation with the Bushwick pilsners was a pretty unusual one, and Aaron's grandfather chose a pretty good favorite, and a good one for cloning. These were some very characterful American pilsners for their times (late 40's through 50's), when most US beers were wimping out. They had respectable hopping levels in the mid to upper 20s. Just this week I got three more unsolicited fan emails for CAP from HBD brewers. Let me once again encourage brewers to brew this beer! BTW, if you're at the NHC in two weeks and up at 8:30 am Saturday :-( , I'll be speaking on CAP. Actually, even if you're not there, I'll be speaking. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 08:54:55 -0600 From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us> Subject: Re: Schaefer, was: more favorites Jeff, I will always bow to your expertise on all matters related to beer. I am not sure that we are talking about the same beer, though. Your explanation has this critical phrase: "These were some very characterful American pilsners for their times (late 40's through 50's), when most US beers were wimping out." Aaron's grandfather probably drank that version, but it is a little before my time. I started drinking beer in the mid 60s, and I suspect the wimpout effect, like an eclipse of the sun, had already reached totality. As a clue to what I drank, I offer the Schaefer Jingle, which I heard so often it is still stuck in my head (with perhaps a few minor errors), lo these many years later: Schaefer is the one beer to have When you're having more than one. Schaefer's flavor doesn't fade Even when your thirst is done. The most rewarding pleasure (?) in this man's world For people who are having fun. Schaefer is the one beer to have When you're having more than one. Now, it seems to me that they were marketing themselves as the world's first light beer. The point of my message is that we who were introduced to beer drinking in the 60's and 70's didn't know what we were doing, and we didn't know that we didn't know. I went to college with a large number of people who considered themselves experts on beer flavor (and of course, I did, too), but we had no way of knowing what the possibilities were. German, Czech, British, Belgian, Irish--none of us had access to them. We thought all beer was a variation of the Bud experience, and we very sophisticatedly picked our favorites from among that lot. A true CAP? I don't think I have ever had one, and we are reaching the point where only a relatively small and dwindling portion of our population has. I would love to try one of yours some day. - -- John Adsit Boulder, Colorado jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:03:29 -0400 From: Paul Shick <shick at JCVAXA.jcu.edu> Subject: HSA experiment Hello all, Steve Alexander makes a number of good points about the proposed HSA experiment. I'll include more of Steve's text than I would normally, because I'd like to respond to several points. My earlier post (volunteering to conduct the experiment)--: >>So, in short, I'm volunteering ..... >> _IF_ he and Dr. Pivo can agree to rule out any stakes, both >>personal and monetary. Steve's response: >I understand and appreciate your point, but the idea of a bet >wasn't mine. Dr.Pivo/Jeff Irvine offered a bet as a >direct and insulting attack on my character (here's how to cure >naysayers who lack conviction on their statements). As usual >he has misread me. Okay, I can't argue with this, but I'd prefer, in general, that we avoid such personal attacks in the HBD, and I'd certainly prefer, in this case, not to get in the middle of a personal argument. Again, I'm quite willing to conduct the proposed experiment, and I have some responses to Steve's suggestions about it. My earlier suggestion: >>I might also suggest that the beers be bottle-conditioned, >>in an effort to minimize cold side aeration effects. Steve's response: >Since I've only tasted the HSA in kegged beers I'd have to >say no. Removing bottle O2 is good for this test, but the >yeast also act as a reducing agent against other oxidation >processes - including possibly the lipid oxidation (w/o free >O2) that I expect to see in the HSA beer (see above). Also >there is the potential problem of yeast autolysis over an >extended period. It would be an interesting experiment, but .. I think that autolysis is unlikely to be a problem, but the other factor Steve raises is a good point. However, I'm not convinced that counter-pressure bottling from a keg is a good option for this sort of experiment. CP filling is _very_ dependent on the skill of the bottler to avoid cold side O_2 problems, which might mask and/or mascarade as HSA symptoms. Steve A: >As to the real issue (HSA) I would like to see the experiment >carried out regardless, *BUT* most folks forget is that there >is good deal of time and effort and expense involved. My earlier post: >>brew 20 gallons of a nice lager [...] always a fun >>thing. Steve: >Not all fun. Gottta cold store it for perhaps a year using 20gal-years >of fridge capacity. At 20gal there will be none to share or sample >except at tastings. Then there is the recordkeeping and the guy >who pours the triangle samples can't taste. Nice for the tasters, >not so nice for the fridge owner and recordkeeper/pourer. My personal view of the experiment was roughly this: brew two 10 gallon batches of a malty, reasonably dark lager (O'fest or Vienna,) with identical yeast starters, fermented under as close to identical conditions as possible, where one batch was aerated with pure O_2 in the mash (and boil?) while the other was kept as oxygen-free as possible during wort production. After suitable lagering, bottle 5 gallons of each, keg 5 gallons of each. After, say, 3 months, send 6-8 bottles of each to an agreed on homebrew club to do a triangle test. Same at 5, 7, 9, 11 months (other HB clubs.) At, say, 9 months, the kegs would be tapped at some HB club meeting to do a similar triangle test, with a wider array of judges than the bottle tests. One reason for shipping the bottles to several locations is to expose them to a bit of rough handling (which should help bring any HSA effects to the surface.) I welcome any comments. I'll be away for a week or two, and I look forward to reading responses when I return. Be gentle.... Paul Shick Cleveland Hts, OH Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:19:21 -0400 From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com Subject: Father/Grandfather favorites John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us> writes: <about trying to recreate old variations of the same bland product dad used to drink> >If my son ever decides to honor me and clone it, I will ask, >"What the Hell were you thinking?" Thanks for that insight, John. Never looked at it that way. I guess you're saying it's like one of us thinking "I'd like to build a TV like dad used to watch - with tubes, rabbit ears, and a UHF converter, just to see what it was like." when we now have digital flat screen TV's with cable and satellite hookups. Still, I think there is something to be said for the experience, and for not letting these old styles of beer die. Pre-prohibition lager seems to be a style that is gaining in popularity. At the Buzz Off competion that was just held in this area, the american lagers category had nothing entered but Pre-Prohibition Lagers. (CAP's). Mild Ale is a style that is losing market share and popularity every day to the point that I hear it is even difficult to find in the UK. I'm not sure why it is declining or why there is not a version of it available in the US (at least that I have seen.) What I read lists several reasons, such as a bad PR image, and people's mistaken belief that all dark beers are necessarily bitter or bad tasting. I think it would be a complete shame if that style went away. Cask ales are also all but gone, lost to nitrogen pressurized cans - another new 'fad'. I wouldn't want to see CAP, Mild, or any of these old styles lost to history, just because something else is the latest 'hot' trend. Bill Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:41:50 -0500 From: Jim Bermingham <bermingham at antennaproducts.com> Subject: HSA It has finally occurred to me why some Home Brewers are worried about HSA. "You don't make good tasting beer" In other words, "Your beer ain't worth drinking". The reason I say this is because they are worried about what effect HSA will have on their beer months down the road. In Stephen Alexander's case he is worried what his beer will taste like a year after it's brewed. He must clone Bud. I guess if my beer lasted that long it may be affected by HSA also. Here in Millsap we have lots of Good O Boys and they like their beer, especially if someone else is providing it. As soon as I fire up my kettle and the smell of the sweet wort hits the air they start arriving. By the time the beer has finished fermenting, the barns are full and the overflow is camping out around the stock tanks. Hell, the cows won't even come up for feed. They are afraid that some of the boys have been away from town too long. Some of the cows are good looking now that I think about it. Anyway, by the time I get the beer keged and forced carbonated, there is a party going on. By feeding time the next morning everyone is gone and all the beer is too. So if you make beer that taste good, or if you have a dozen or so love starved cowboys and some good looking cows, you don't have to worry about the problem of the long termed effect that HSA may or may not have on your beer. Jim Bermingham Millsap, TX www.angelfire.com/tx3/bermingham/brewery.html Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 12:22:21 -0700 From: "Alison, Colin, Scott Birdwell" <defalcos at insync.net> Subject: Mead & Cider guidelines The recent discussion on HBD about inadequacies of the Mead and Cider styles in the new Beer Judge Certification Program style guide has not gone un-noticed. The BJCP has commissioned a small styles team to focus on a more thorough update of the Mead and Cider styles. This team will be lead by David Houseman. However, he expects to utilize the experts in the these beverages rather than rely just on beer brewers and judges. If you are such an expert in Mead or Cider, please contact David at dhousema at cccbi.org to volunteer your time to work with this committee. Thanking you in advance, Scott Birdwell DeFalco's Home Wine & Beer Supplies Houston (aka "Bonhamville") TX BJCP Competition Committee Chairman Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:09:10 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU> Subject: mash out When I was at Seibels and also I believe kunze states that a mash out is really unneccessary. If (and only if) one lets the mash go to completion then it really should not matter if one mashes out since all the convetable starch ahs been attack by the alpha-amylse during the final mash step. Also it has been suggest that mashout is a bad idea since one wants some residual amylase activty present in case unconverted starch is released during sparging. As I recall mashout simple reduces the mash viscousity due to heat and thus makes sparging more efficient. Something homebrewers don't really need to be concerned with unless they want to. dr pivo and before him, jack s made a point of telling us not to buy into everything the big guys do. just my opinion. Jim Liddil North Haven, CT Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 14:11:33 -0400 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Vittles Vault When the new puppy got to the point that we were buying chow in 40# bags I borrowed my son's keg tub to keep it (the chow, not the puppy) in. He (my son, not the dog) told me a couple of weeks ago that he was going to need it back for an upcoming party so that when I saw the "Vittle Vault" in Pet Smart I thought I could return the tub and still keep the chow neatly. While putting this device into the car the light came on. This thing looks about ideal for storing grain. It's a more or less rectangular "bottle" with a large screw-on plug-like top. The poopsheet on the side claims it is air tight, thus keeping dog, horse, cat etc. food free from the ravages of humidity, mice and bugs. The model I had puports to contain 50# of kibble. I went back and took the remaining two the store had. A bit pricey at $39 but they look as if they'll really do the job. Seem to be stackable too. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 16:06:44 -0400 From: "Ken Schramm" <schramk at resa.net> Subject: MIY2K Okay, this is blatant begging, soliciting at its purest. Get your hind end to the AHA Conference in Livonia (suburban Detroit, for those who don't know our fair city that well) on June 22-24. We have lined up Morten Meilgaard to speak on beer flavors, and Peter Blum to speak on the history of brewing in Detroit. We have Beer Without Borders, which should set the standard for club nights for years to come. Mike O'Brien has put together a Pig Roast ON SITE for the first time ever. This should be a Dynamite event. Web info is in the HBD banner. Since Zymurgy never asked me, I'll have to say it here: THIS is why I brew. I want to show off my best stuff to people whose respect I crave. And while I'm at it, I'd love to see who can put something up next to my smoked salmon (Mark Tumarkin is puttin up a bunch of Mustard, and I'm bringing a bunch of Renner's bread, which may be better than his beer) . I am dying to see who brings what to the Hutzpah-tality Sweet, and just to see a bunch of folks I just never see anywhere else. I don't brew to be better than anybody else. I don't brew to learn chemistry or to learn history (although I have learned a bit, and I have liked it). I brew to have something I'm proud of to share with my friends. I am looking forward to sharing things I am proud of, and I'm also looking forward to having more friends when it's over than I have today (although based on how much work I got them into, there are some guys from the AABG who would probably like to have my hide right now). I hope to see you there. Ken Schramm (wind bag extraordinaire) Troy, MI 2 kegs of mead, smoked salmon, pheasants, chicken, turkey and cheese. 12 days until the best homebrew event of the new millennium. Tell 'em Pfeiffer sent ya. Return to table of contents
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