HOMEBREW Digest #3394 Thu 03 August 2000

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  Aylesbury Brewery ("Matt Hollingsworth")
  Drunken stupors vs stupid drunks (Some Guy)
  cold rooms (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Aussie Nonsense Or Scientific Thirsting? ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Fullers Hopping Schedules (Sean Macleod)
  To be an Aussie, fungal beer ("Graham Sanders")
  RE: Wyeast Belgian Ardennes (Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger)
  Last post on removing labels? Lazy version (Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger)
  Brad's question on mash temps ("Alan Meeker")
  Wyeast Ardennes yeast ("Gordon Strong")
  How to create multiple hot breaks and are they good or bad? ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Re: Quick-Drafting Bottles? (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Quick-Drafting Bottles? (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes / Malt Liquor / Drunks (David Harsh)
  Bombs Away ("Paul Niebergall")
  Sorbate/Cider Myth ("Lynne O'Connor")
  Can't we all just get along? ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Dave is not a Bruce! ("Brian Lundeen")
  BJCP Malt Liquor Style ("Houseman, David L")
  Judging ("Paul Carmichael")
  Re: Amylase Functionality ("John Palmer")
  Technology Brewing and Malting ("Charles Beaver")
  Clean Beer Glasses (Scott Perfect)
  gelatinization again... (Joseph Uknalis)
  Gelatinizatrion and Low T mashes, beer bums and linguistic (Dave Burley)
  Question:High gravity dilution(again) (Rick Pauly)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Aug 2000 12:59:52 -0700 From: "Matt Hollingsworth" <colorart at spiritone.com> Subject: Aylesbury Brewery Hello! A friend of mine just gave me what is, presumably, a beer jug. It looks to be just over a gallon in size, probably a British gallon. It's ceramic and has lettering on it that reads: "The Aylesbury Brewery Compy Ltd Newport Pagnell" it also has a "592" written in the midst of this lettering and an "NP" off to the side. I assume the NP is an abbreviation of Newport Pagnell. I tried to do some research on the web, but haven't had much luck. From what I found, though, it seems Newport Pagnell is a city or region in Britain. So, I tried to see if this brewery was listed with CAMRA and couldn't find anything. So, I'm wodnering if anyone knows exactly what this thing is? It seems to be for holding beer, but which style and from what time period? Is it merely a souvenir or genuine? Is the Aylesbury Brewery Company still around or are they defunct? I'm curious as to the history of this jug if there is one, and any info about the brewery itself/ Anyone with info can either post it or e-mail me directly. Any help, even just to point me in the direction of an information resource would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! -Matt Hollingsworth Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 18:11:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: Drunken stupors vs stupid drunks Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... On wonderment: you'd have to understand my life. The capacity for wonderment expands with the learning aquired from certain events. Mine is almost limitless. On Skippy: Don't go there. He was a guy in college accused once of being able to screw a Cheerio without breaking it. I resent the association. I'd at least wear it a bit around the edges. (Or maybe that was Skooter. In any case...) Besides: I'm my own evil twin. On getting drunk: Been there. Done that. Not a constant state of being - can't stand the feeling. Wouldn't want to live there. Neither would my liver. But, for Bruzillas-come-lately, there's a subtle difference between getting drunk and being a drunk... On hyperbole: It isn't. I believe my point was very succinctly stated in that paragraph. If *YOU* can't demonstrate that you can responsibly enjoy alcohol, then you cannot reasonably expect your children to. After all, they learn the majority of their morality lessons in the home. At least they used to. And again, "not hiding from your children" is better handled in letting them sample what you're drinking (Oh, no! Not THAT thread again!) and then letting them notice that you do not proceed on to oblivion. My opinion. And I do have children. And this is how my parents handled the upbringing of me and my five siblings. And none of us are drunks, unemployed (or unemployable) nor in prison. I'll take my lessons from that experience, thankyouverymuch. You can take yours from Steve if you prefer. On educating the public: Hear! Hear! Agreed. That and in all of our "achievements" as home brewers, we never broke the association with bathtub gin and exploding bottles. I cannot count how many times I've been asked. "Oh! You do that in the bathtub?" (ABOUT BREWING, PHIL! Don't let your mind wander...) I've said my piece, and there'll likely be some other strange tangents taken from those things I've said. (Again, not sure where Steve pulled the prohibitionist angle from. Maybe he started paying attention midstream.) Support the "cause" if you like - or not! Again: as you like. But only expect me to call you a drunk if you are one. NOT because you're a home brewer. Pay me the same courtesy, please... - -- - See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock "The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged from my yeast lab Saturday Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 19:40:19 -0700 From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at stanford.edu> Subject: cold rooms Thanks to all for helpful info about cold room building, especially Forrest! In addition to what appeared here on the HBD I received helpful replies from Ray Kruse, Steve Smith, c.d. pritchard, and mike davis. In addition to Forrest's info, the best place to look is Scott's page (http://www.brewrats.org/walkin.cfm) (which I had seen before but couldn't find). Other tidbits: -Check out the ASHRE handbook for all kinds of info regarding insulation, cooling capacities, etc. -Plan to deal with moisture inside -Another interior wall surface suggestion was, "The biggest bangs/buck in these parts is 4'x8' sheets of the hardboard paneling stuff that has a pre-finished tile like surface. It's washable and water resistant. Fasten to studs with stainless sheet metal screws (and maybe Liquid Nails also) and seal all joints with silicone sealant." I still like the wonderboard idea except that Forrest's idea of a room that can be disassembled is starting to appeal to me since I will only be living in my new home 4-5 years. - -- Jeremy Bergsman jeremybb at stanford.edu http://www.stanford.edu/~jeremybb Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 15:58:06 +1000 From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au> Subject: Aussie Nonsense Or Scientific Thirsting? I am a little bit upset about off handed comments from Jim Bentson, and just when I was making scientific head way! I wonder when it was the last time Jim Bentson sat in a bathysphere and contemplated CO2. Not very recently I'll bet! Jeff Renner got it nearly all right with his answer. Except for his assumption about my very large life insurance policy. I don't have one. I'm not that silly Jeff. But congratulations on your excellent pressure knowledge. Moving along, what do we know about carbonation measurement? I must admit it took me awhile to get a handle on the concept of volumes of CO2. Not even sure if I have the right handle on it. Perhaps someone can help. When we say our beer is carbonated to, let's say, two volumes of CO2, what do we mean? I had some trouble trying to picture this as the volume of a gas will vary with temperature and pressure. I had visions of a very elastic balloon of CO2 and couldn't grasp any fixed volume that might be being talked about. Further more, what are we relating the volume to? What are two volumes if I don't even know what one volume is? What I think we are talking about is this. At a given pressure and temperature a liquid (in our case beer) can absorb a certain amount of CO2 relative to its own volume. That is to say, the volume of the CO2 at the fixed temp and pressure can be measured relative to the volume of the beer into which it is absorbed. I think I just said that twice! Never mind. >From this brilliant deduction, a chart can be drawn up listing various pressure and temperature combinations at which volumes of CO2 are absorbed into the beer. Two volumes of CO2 ie twice the volume of the beer is absorbed into the beer when applied under a certain pressure at a fixed temperature. If the pressure is increased then the temperature must also be increased to maintain the constant absorbed volumes. If the pressure is lowered, the temp must also be lowered. Well I think that is what we are talking about. I could be way off the mark! Of course, when the lid comes off the beer, out comes the CO2, depending on pressure variables (and temperature for that matter). Wes and I found this out when we cracked a frosty in the vacuumated bathysphere. Man, what a head!! Now listen Mr Bentson, I'm going to give you an option. Either I'm going to be allowed to go back to drinking beers on the verandah and writing outrageous posts, or I'm going to pursue my scientific career. There's plenty more where this came from. You decide what you prefer. Just quietly, my Doctor advised Jill I should never have been taken off my medication! Cheers Phil Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 14:14:04 +0800 From: Sean Macleod <sean at bankwest.com.au> Subject: Fullers Hopping Schedules Hello All, I am looking to make some beers similar to Fullers I currently brew using extract and specialty grains I am interested in trying to emulate their hopping schedule. here is what I have determined from their website Chiswick Bitter Hops: Northdown, Challenger London Pride: Hops: Target, Northdown, Challenger Fuller's ESB Hops: Target, Northdown, Challenger, EK Goldings I have bought pellets of all the above varieties from Regan at ESB (www.esb.net.au) I normally use three hop additions (60, 15, 0) during the boil and dry-hop the secondary. does anyone know roughly when Fullers add the hops mentioned above ? I am planning to use the following additions (amounts will be adjusted to fit my recipe) Chiswick Bitter 60: Northdown 15: Challenger 0: Challenger London Pride 60: Target 15: Northdown 0: Challenger ESB 60: Target, Northdown 15: Northdown, Challenger 0: Goldings dry: Goldings anyone who has more detailed information about this I would be happy to share: I generally make up my fermentables from M&F Spray Malt DME Generic (New Zealand) LME Light Brown Sugar 60L Crystal Safale S-04 dry yeast all comments greatly appreciated Anyone have any experience using Bramling Cross ? I am planning to use this in my next robust porter Sean Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:22:05 +1000 From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU> Subject: To be an Aussie, fungal beer G'day all Gave some serious thought (for a change) to a posting but before that >From: "Leland Heaton" Graham, Phil, Jill, Keith, Lyndon, etc...Can I be an Aussie? :).. < Well i suspose its possible, but you'll have to talk to those wousers down south about that. We all know that we up here in North Queensland succeed long ago. Now to be a true North Queenslander, thats just bloody hard (but not impossible). It takes a knowledge of physics (understanding the the physics of suction when a genital grabbing frog latched on, and the ability to remove it and nothing else), biology (so you can avoid those tourist seeking salties and taipans, and understand how to make a good chunder), chemistry (well I hope you are going to brew here, and to deliver the perfect chunder), tact (how else can you convince SWMBO that she still is the only one after the frog has its way), social skills (those many awards that are available, did I mention the chunder) and of course a healthy disrepect for all things law obiding (that should cover the rest). After that we can then really start educating you into the finer points of our culture. For instance, WHERE"S MY BLOODY CARTON. Putting my name first doesn't cut it mate, you wont get your passort that way. Anyway before Pat has his way From: John Baxter Biggins <jbbiggin at med.cornell.edu> Subject: Anyone ever do a "beer" by using the methods for sake??? My question: has anyone tried to brew a "beer"-like sake, that is, instead of rice use non-malted barley w/ pseudo-normal hopping schedules & yeast to make a "pale" or non-malted wheat to make a "weizen"? I expect certain sake-like components from the sugar conversion by the fungus to remain, but I am just curious if anyone has ever tried doing such >>>>>>>> Now I must admit this has been spinning arround in the old brian box for some time. I originally thought of using the fungus on some old feed barley and corn, throw in some yeast, let her rip, and use the "beer" in my modest still. Put it this way, beats doing a mash, and looked an easy way to get some grain spirits. But lets look at this in a touch more detail. For those that dont know, the process would work like this. You have raw grain, add water and a special fungus. The fungus grows on and in the grain, secrets enzymes (slowly) that convert the starch to sugar. The fungus feeds off the sugars and grows more. Now add yeast. As the fungus makes the sugar, (or more inportantly the enzymes do) the yeast uses the sugars at a much much faster rate than the fungus, bonzer fermentation (couldn't help that word slipping in). This method of conversion and fermentation (wait for the arguments to come) results in the ability of getting a brew up to 20% alcohol if done right. Now back to the question, can we make a beer this way. Well what cant we do. We obviously cant get a hot and cold break, or much hop conversion. Boiling is out of the question. So we wont get a clear beer. But we could brew a beer to 16% v/v or higher (now thats a barley wine) but thats not good cause you can't compare it to anything arround. But there would be beers we could compare it to. Cloudy, low hopped beer made out of raw grains. Well Wits and Weissen (if you ignore that purity law) come to mind. So what could one do. Well to me it would go like this. (will have to work out volumes after the Rugby finals are over) 1. Soak a given quality of Barley and Wheat overnight. 2. Boil said for 15- 20 minutes and add hops (and anything else). (or use iso-hops, hop oils or essenses), This sterilises, or is that sanitises, the mix as well. 3. Strain and cool in sealed fermenter. 4. Add Spores of fungus. 5. after 3 days add messured volume of water to desired alcohol level and yeast 6.Come back when its all finished. There will be no krausen, the fermentation will be just slow and steady. Then bottle and compare the two. Any thoughts? Might even give it a try this summer, (thats January-February) and compare it to one of my regular wheat beers. Oh by the way, you shouldn't keep fungus and yeast arround the house with out bulk orders of antibiotic creams. Every time SWMBO gets thrush, guess who gets blamed for it. Shout Graham Sanders Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 08:17:51 -0400 From: Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger <katerob at erols.com> Subject: RE: Wyeast Belgian Ardennes In HBD #3393, Warren White inquired about Wyeast Belgian Ardennes (#3522). I've made a couple of good dubbels with this yeast. Last Columbus Day (October), my homebrew club and I visited Brewery Ommegang, and shared some of our beers with the Brewmaster, Randy Theil, who was *extremely* generous with his time and advice. I gave him the first of the extract and grain dubbels I made with the Belgian Ardennes yeast, and he thought it had a great yeast character, quite flavorful and spicy. The one improvement he suggested was boosting the alcohol level, as there was little of the warmth of alcohol to that first attempt. In a second attempt, I ended up with a really strong, heavy beer which is more like a Belgian Imperial Stout, if you can imagine. If I were to try it again (and I will), I would use more candy sugar rather than adding more malt extract (which is what I did the second time) -- I'm thinking that would keep the body light but give a bit more of an alcohol presence without masking the fantastic yeast flavors. Good luck with the trippel! - --Rob Hanson the Closet Brewery 'post tenebras lux' Washington, DC Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 08:31:29 -0400 From: Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger <katerob at erols.com> Subject: Last post on removing labels? Lazy version Just catching up on my HDB... a while back, DeVeaux Gauger asked about removing labels, and while I thought someone else must use the method below, no one posted it. So I thought I'd give you another option. Take a gallon-size zip-lock bag (or any bag you can close tightly with some bottles in it), wrap up to three (or however many you can fit) bottles in one damp paper towel per bottle and seal or close the bag. Wait 12-24 hours (brew some more beer, drink some more beer), then unwrap the bottles. The labels just slip off (95% of them, anyway), and if you collect labels like I do, you can press the intact label between blotter corrugated cardboard, and keep for your scrapbook. You can use the towels over and over. Watch out for that amonia smell when you open the bag... Question: Can any of you brew-inventers think of a way to attach (unflattened) bottle caps to an item of clothing (a hat, a vest) without piercing the top of the cap? In addition to the labels, I've got a collection of great bottle caps with cool logos on them, that I'd like to adorn some brew-gear with. Any advice welcome. - --Rob Hanson the Closet Brewery 'post tenebras lux' Washington, DC - ---- "...They have worked their will on John Barleycorn But he lived to tell the tale, For they pour him out of an old brown jug And they call him home brewed ale." Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 08:42:26 -0400 From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu> Subject: Brad's question on mash temps Brad asks, >I hope this makes more sense now. Let me reiterate: How is >it that a lower temp rest (145) can be too useful if the substrates >for it are from a reaction of a higher temp? (Yes I know that there >is still some activity at lower temps) I think there are three relevant points here. First, the "some activity" of alpha amylase is actually a significant amount, and the time_ spent at the lower temperature will have an effect as well (longer incubation time can make up for the lower activity level). Second, Beta can actually go quite a long way in starch degradation by itself provided (as Dave alluded to I believe) that the starch has been well gelatinized. Third, your proposed scheme of going to high temps first to allow alpha action, then cooling to the beta range will likely be thwarted by the fact that much of the beta will _irreversibly_ denature at the higher temps and thus be unable to act in the second phase. Hope this helps -Alan Meeker Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:23:11 -0400 From: "Gordon Strong" <strongg at earthlink.net> Subject: Wyeast Ardennes yeast Warren White asks in HBD #3393 about Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes yeast. I've got a new "shampoo tube" of it and intend to use it this weekend in a dubbel (see my recipe and comments in the Jan/Feb 2000 issue of Zymurgy). I usually use Wyeast 3787 and want to see what differences can be noted. I also was intrigued by the recent summer brewing issue of Zymurgy that said this yeast could tolerate temperatures as high as 85F. I probably won't go above the low-mid 70s but at least I won't worry about cooling techniques. At the AHA NHC convention in Livonia this year, I asked Dave Logsdon of Wyeast about this strain. He said it came from Achouffe. When I compare my dubbels brewed with the different yeasts, I'll also compare them with their commercial brethren (3787: Westmalle Dubbel, 3522: La Chouffe). Gordon Strong Beavercreek, OH Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:52:15 -0400 From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com> Subject: How to create multiple hot breaks and are they good or bad? I have noticed that I can cause second, third, and I assume more hot breaks to occur if I do something to cool the wort during the boil. For instance, sometimes, after the initial hot break, when the boil has been going on quite a long time, I may add hot tap water to keep the volume above 5 Gal. Quite often this will result in the formation of another hot break. Yesterday, while boiling a wheat beer, I put the immersion chiller in the wort after 45 minutes of boiling, it caused the formation of about 3 inches of foam. I originally had a good hot break at the start of the boil. Also, I had suspended the immersion chiller above the brew pot for a few minutes so it was up to temperature before I put it in the pot. In this case, adding the chiller didn't even stop the boiling like adding tap water sometimes does. So my questions are: Why does adding low temperature water or an immersion chiller cause the foam to form. (In the case of the immersion chiller, a layer of copper oxide comes off each time but I don't know if that is useful information.)? Is this beneficial of harmful? Should I do it every brew or should I avoid it? Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:33:48 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Quick-Drafting Bottles? "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com> needs to get some overcarbonated keg beer into bottles quickly. Actually, the overcarbonation may not be a problem, but actually a help in achieving proper carbonation in the bottles, since you often lose a little in bottling. A counter-pressure filler would be best if you could borrow one, but just filling with a hose stuck on a plastic "cobra faucet" will work pretty well. I would suggest chilling the beer as far down as you can go, certainly at least fridge temp (of course, no you'll have chill haze). This will keep as much CO2 in solution as possible and also reduce the keg pressure. Get the bottles as cold as possible, too. I put mine in the freezer. This keeps the beer from foaming as much when it hits the bottles. Make sure the hose reaches the bottom of the bottle, then turn the pressure down on the keg so the beer flows slowly and fill the bottles. If you get the beer to foam up into the neck so you can "cap on foam," so much the better - less O2. Of course, since you aren't purging the bottles with CO2 the way you would with a cp filler, you may get some dissolved O2 in the beer, but it should last many weeks with this technique, especially if you cap on foam. Good luck. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:12:10 -0500 From: rlabor at lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald) Subject: RE: Quick-Drafting Bottles? From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com> > Two, the beer is currently in a ten gallon keg which my brother >quick-drafted with CO2, and apparently he over-carbonated it. So I'm >faced with the predicament of trying to uncarbonate it so I can >transfer it to bottles and then try to recarbonate it. > > I guess I'm asking, is there any way to > >a) transfer the beer from keg to bottles without giving it a chance to >foam up, and ideally preserve some of the carbonation, or If you get the temperature of the keg down as low as you can before freezing, about 30F, then you release the pressure down to just 2 or 3 psi, just enough to move the beer through your beer tap and hose. Place a 12 inch piece of tubing into your beer tap outlet and slowly dispense into the bottle with the vinyl hose at the bottom of the bottle. Then immediately cap the bottle. I do this as my regular bottling routine, it works great! Ron Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsuhsc.edu http://hbd.org/rlaborde Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:41:35 -0400 From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net> Subject: Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes / Malt Liquor / Drunks "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com> asks about Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes > But unlike some of them I don't intend to waste bandwith > with endless diatribe and useless platitudes! Thank you very much. The diatribes and platitudes were amusing the first 10,000 times they were posted... > If so can I get some info. on its characteristics etc. > and is it suitable for a Trippel. I was told this is the L'Chouffe yeast by someone I consider to have a clue. Draw your own conclusion, but I'm brewing with it when I get the chance. - --------------------------- Here in Ohio, the term "Malt Liquor" is a required description for beers above a certain alcohol level (at least it was a few years ago). You could actually buy Belgian ales with the term on their label. >From a style standpoint, a typical malt liquor is an American Lager (the word light is redundant in this application) that has had sugar added to boost the alcohol. The resulting Colt 45 or Olde Englishe 800e is a someone rough concoction, but it gets you there faster. - ----------------------------- In the discussion of drunks and drunkeness, people are forgetting that when we deal with public perceptions, it is an uphill battle. Our club meets at a restaurant. We come in and almost everyone carries in a cooler or a keg. The casual observer sees lots of beer. If every person carries in a 6 or 12 pack cooler or a 5 gallon keg, the patron assumes that every drop is consumed. If ONE person is stumbling or slurring speech, we are all painted by that brush. It doesn't matter if he isn't driving. You tell someone you are having a homebrew competition with 100 kegs (like Beer and Sweat, coming August 19th, 2000 in Cincinnati, OH - the world's only keg-only competition see http://hbd.org/bloat for details) and the casual listener assumes that you drink all the beer. I'm not promoting or condemning getting intoxicated - we just have to admit that in the average person's eyes, being a homebrewer is equivalent to joining the local chapter of Drunks Against Mad Mothers and the educational process to reverse that perception is a long one. Dave Harsh Bloatarian Brewing League Cincinnati, OH Ford: "Its rather like being drunk" Arthur: "What's wrong with being drunk?" Ford: "Ask a glass of water." Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 09:54:16 -0500 From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com> Subject: Bombs Away Well it happened. 15 years of beer bottling (and some bad fruit fly Karma) finally caught up with me. I was tending to my cellar last night. Dusting a few old bottles off and admiring the variety of my collection. I carefully selected about six bottles for an upcoming fishing trip and placed them on the concrete floor of my basement right by the spare fridge. I must have put one of the bottles a little too close to the fridge because when I opened the door, the bottle fell over, and KABLAM! My arm was on the door handle of the fridge which is a good three feet vertically and a few feet over from ground zero, yet a few pieces of glass found their way over and into my arm. The glass hit my arm at a relatively low angle and caused long slices in my arm. Like most injuries, there was a brief moment before the blood started to really flow. I remember looking down and being able to "see" veins in my arm. I mean really see them. Anyway, an hour or so later in the emergency ward, I thought of the drunken home brewer thread of late. Try explaining to the ER staff that it wasnt a drunken accident when you are pretty much drenched in beer foam and they are busy sewing you up. Luckily, it was a slow night and most of them had a sense of humor. Paul Niebergall (Three wounds with 6, 15, and 8 stitches, in case anybody was wondering and think they can outdo me) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 10:03:57 -0500 From: "Lynne O'Connor" <stpats at bga.com> Subject: Sorbate/Cider Myth The nice discussion about sorbate points to a common myth--namely, that you can't make hard cider from store-bought apple cider that has sorbate. I have on numerous occasions. You need only pitch an active yeast slurry with yeast nutrient. Lynne O'Connor St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply 512-989-9727 www.stpats.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:49:11 -0400 From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com> Subject: Can't we all just get along? >I agree with Pat's recent comments re/ the desire to not associate >"homebrewing" with "drunk". "Drunk" is considered by most of the world to >be a derogatory term. As Todd said, "Drunk " is a derogatory term. And in typical American fashion , it will probably be given a new, politically-correct name to take some of the hurt out of the old term - if enough drunks bitch about it. Names like: the "blood alcohol content impaired", the "alcoholically uncoordinated", "chronic intoxication sydrome". Regardless of the name change, they'll still be drunks under thier new skin and homebrewers will still be associated with them by the ignorant. As for the term "homebrewer"... I object to this label partly because of the association with "drunk" and also because not every thing I create is necessarily brewed. Therefore, I am declaring myself a "Fermented Beverage Artist"! But you can just call me "The Artist" because Prince doesn't like that name anymore and he's gone back to being called Prince again. THE ARTIST! I like that! As far as indulging in my creations, I prefer to take a tip from my mentor, Ben Franklin - all things in moderation. Like Ben, I prefer to drink my beer and enjoy it's flavor more so than it's inebriating effects. I also like to share it with my friends and take pleasure in their enjoyment of my creations. And once in a while I like to have a few more than usual and just enjoy the buzz... But I do it responsibly and in moderation. Hey, do I just go to the Australian Consulate and fill out an application for citizenship? Can it be *THAT* simple to gain piece of mind? Carpe cerevisiae! Glen Pannicke http://www.pannicke.net "He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 10:24:27 -0500 From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: Dave is not a Bruce! Dave Edwards took offense (possibly) where none was intended when he commented: > Also I know that I am probably regarded as a > 'Bruce-come-lately' bloke, but > as you may have guessed, I have strong opinions, and am not > afraid to give > them. I am not as elequant, and delicate with the responses I > give (too much > beer whilst at the computer is the usual culprit), but I try. Dave, while I support your right to go under any title that pleases you, you were not in my targeted group of "Bruces". I should have been more specific. The people in question were a bunch that appeared briefly around the start of July and contributed such eloquent comments as: "G'Day to yas, I too reside in Australia, South Australia, Adealide even. You could piss from my house in Clapham to Mitcham. Thats all" "Yep, I'm another South Australian from Adelaide. Unlike (name deleted) I cannot piss between two suburbs from my house. But I can piss on the Boadview footy oval. Well actually i can piss on the tennis courts next to the footy oval but i felt the need to fit in by including footy in my post." "up the eagles (AFL) up the glory (soccer) up the wildcats (basketball) and up and rugby teems we have." "Being the only young and stupid Aussie on the HBD can I request a Cat 69? Must be something about being in QLD and the real Aussie coming out in me! Makes one feal very "Gimpy". These 4 hour lunches are tough.....Ohh i love business trips...." As I said, it appears these people did a "Veni, Vidi, Vomiti" on the HBD then moved on, so it's not really an ongoing problem. Now, if these people want to come back and contribute something of substance (even if it's Category 5), great. But for now, they're the "Bruces". You on the other hand, Dave, have made a major contribution by drawing Pat out of his shell with the infamous Sooky Sooky La La posting. I was growing fearful for Pat's well-being, locking himself away with the HBD server in his underground bunker he picked up at a "Cold war going out of business" sale, living on Rice-a-roni and his personal collection of vintage Carling Black Labels (some dating back to 1963), and squandering the family fortune by hiring a doppelganger by the name of Arthur Hampstead from East Grand Forks, Minnesota to make public appearances for him for the last several years. Now that you've gotten Pat willing to muck it up with the masses, we can all hope that he will soon emerge from the bunker and resume his rightful place in society. Cheers Brian PS. I promise to stop all (well, a good portion,... um, maybe 30%,... perhaps the odd one) of this silliness when we get back into serious brewing mode come the fall. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 11:50:47 -0400 From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com> Subject: BJCP Malt Liquor Style Jeff Renner asks "I believe that it used to be a category in the old BJCP style guidelines; however, in the new one it looks like it has been removed. Does anyone know why AHA/BJCP removed it?" Well, yes. When the style committee convened to create the new style guide we did so with several agreed tenets. First we were not trying to create a repository of all known beer styles; there are many historical and contemporary styles, some used in the GABF or World Beer Cup, that aren't brewed by homebrewers for homebrew competitions. Second, we felt that the style guide should reflect the current interests of the homebrew competition community. Third, it is expected that the style guide be a living document that will change periodically (not necessarily annually) to reflect new interests and information. CAP is an example of a style added in the last few years for which there is a lot of general interest in homebrew competitions. Finally, the purpose the style guide is to provide homebrewers and judges a source of objective style definitions for the use in homebrew competitions. Since there was a good deal of effort by the committee in reviewing, modifying, editing and supporting each style, we felt we should drop those that don't have a base of interest in the homebrewing competition community. Malt Liquor was one of those styles that none of us had even run across in our judging/organizing experience so we dropped it as an active style. If there were to be a revival of interest in Malt Liquor in homebrew competitions, then it should be added back. Until then if one wants to brew and enter a Malt Liquor (or any style not in the style guide) do so in the Specialty/Experimental/Historical category. Hope this helped in explaining the Style Guide Committee's thoughts, as best I can remember them now. David Houseman Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 12:11:14 -0400 From: "Paul Carmichael" <hoagie2 at home.com> Subject: Judging Would anyone be willing to give me prejudge on a beer Im entering in a comptetion. This will be my first and I'm just a bit curious how my beer stands up. Hoagi Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:30:09 -0700 From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net> Subject: Re: Amylase Functionality Brad says: How is it that a lower temp rest (145) can be too useful if the substrates for it are from a reaction of a higher temp? (Yes I know that there is still some activity at lower temps) I think there is one fundemental flaw in the discussion to date, so I will state it outright: Beta Amylase functionality does NOT depend on prior Alpha Amylase activity. It is HELPED by it, yes. Beta amylase is perfectly capable of producing maltose from the amylose and amylopectins in the mash, with zero help from Alpha Amylase. It will just not produce as much. Beta Limit Dextrins (large dextrins formed from amylopections) can only be broken down by Alpha. But all of the amylose starches can be fully broken down into maltose by Beta. According to Brewing by Lewis and Young, Amylose represents about 25% of the total starch. So, in a 60C, 70C multistep infusion mash: At 140F, Beta amylase cuts all the available maltoses off the tips of the amylopectins, to within 3 glucoses (1 maltose = 2 glucoses) of the branch points, plus reduces all of the amyloses to maltose. At 157F, Alpha amylase breaks up all of the Beta Limit Dextrins, leaving Alpha Limit Dextrins (smaller), and any surviving Beta breaks down resulting amyloses to maltoses. Also, let's be clear about Alpha Amylases functionality- it attacks the same 1-4 straight chain bonds that Beta does, but does it randomly to within 1 glucose of the 1-6 bond branch point. Beta attacks 1-4 bonds systematically and sequentially chopping maltoses off of one of the polar ends of an amylose. And, let's suppose Nature did work the enzymes the other way around, that Beta was the high temperature enzyme and Alpha was the low. We would then suffer complete conversion to 100% maltose, which the yeast would completely ferment, leaving no residual sweetness from dextrins. Not beer by my book. (Great question and discussion, btw) :-) John Palmer jjpalmer at realbeer.com Palmer House Brewery and Smithy http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ How To Brew - the book http://www.howtobrew.com (sitemap located at http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/SitemapA.html ) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 12:13:50 -0500 From: "Charles Beaver" <cbeav at netnitco.net> Subject: Technology Brewing and Malting I am trying to find a copy of Kunze's book in English. I have e-mailed the web site in Berlin but have received no reply. Does anybody know where I may obatin the text? Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:12:03 -0700 From: Scott Perfect <perfect at marzen.llnl.gov> Subject: Clean Beer Glasses Jeff in 3392 and Brett in 3393 were discussing soaps, detergents, and cleaning of beer glasses. There was an article in the magazine "All about Beer" in 1984 titled "Beer Clean." The suggested procedure for cleaning beer glasses was a hot wash in dish soap, and hot rinse. Next, some salt is poured into the glass, the glass is scrubbed with a brush or sponge, and then rinsed with cold water. The salt is said to remove the detergent film. I find that this procedure significantly improves head retention. I presume, in reference to Jeff's post, that "scum" is _less_ for detergent vs. soap but still not zero... Scott Perfect San Ramon, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 14:16:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Uknalis <birman at netaxs.com> Subject: gelatinization again... Sorry if this is a repeat, just noticed the thread... Recently a bud & I made a batch of wit & used 'gelatinized wheat' instead of malted wheat in the mash. Conversion seemed to take a little longer than usual & the final wort was really hazy (like cornstarch in lemon juice, sort of like a Widmer Hefeweizen), it took about 3 weeks for the stuff to settle out... turned out a fine batch nonetheless. Is this typical with gelatinized wheat? Does the barley enzyme need to work longer to digest the mass of wheat starch or is the starch in the wheat partially malted by the rolling process?? thanks Joe Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 15:12:26 -0400 From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Gelatinizatrion and Low T mashes, beer bums and linguistic Brewsters: This discussion on low T holds ( initiated by A-B responses to questions and Jeff Renner responding to my comments about the origin of the lower T limit on mashing) prompted me to consult M&BS on this subject. P 225 of Vol1 2nd ed says: "The starches in <adjuncts> vary in the difficulty with which they may be degraded by amylases during mashing. Ease of gelatinization is associated with the ease with which the starch grains swell and gelatinize as the temperature is raised. However, swelling is a gradual time-dependent process as is "gelatinization" and occurs over a range of temperatures. Consequently when a malt is mashed, more than 90% of the extract can be recovered eventually at tempertures below the notional gelatinization temperature of the starch. " Further down: "Reported Gelatinization temperatures: Maize 62-74C 143.5-165F sorghum 69-75 156-167 rice 61-78 142-178 wheat 52-64 125.5-147 barley 60-62 140-143-5 malted barley 64-67 147-152.5 potato 56-69 133-156 Presumably kilning caused the gelatinization temperature of the malt starch to exceed that of the barley". Like Marc Sedam and, I guess, M&BS , I would have thought that the malt starch would be lower in Tgel , due to enzymic degradation. But it's not. This also explains Jeff Renner's correct recollection that barley starch gel temp was in the low 140s and my incorrect recollection that it was 149F ( although I wasn't sure which starch, malt or regular, was being discussed) . However, this data also fortuitiously supports my view that barley malt starch gelatinization temperature is the main reason for the given lower limits of mashing as 149F as is commonly done. This lower limit is only a practical one in terms of production time and can be lowered by a longer mash time as pointed out above. You can mash at a lower temperature and get at least 90% efficiency versus, I presume, normal mash if you wait longer. As far as mashing at a highish temperature and allowing the temperature to fall as Brian asks, this will work and seems to make some sense from the active temperature ranges of the enzymes as he points out . Overnight mashers without temperature control do this, but you will produce a low dextrin beer as many of the dextrins which are produced in the normal temperature profile in the absence of beta amylase late in the mash at higher Ts will be reduced to simple sugars in this inverse T hold . Also, the temperature ranges Brian quoted were "optimal" numbers. - ----------------------------- I suspect that making beer is so much work and takes such a long concenrtated effort to be successful that few true alcoholics ("drunks") take up this hobby. However, there are some I am sure. I remember one HBDer in the past had to sell his rig or lose his wife as he was out of control. But he would have likely been out of control if he weren't brewing. In my experience with some alcoholic friends and employees in the past, they have no care for anything that interferes with drinking. Like others, I too have saluted the porcelain god from drinking too much beer, especially in my younger days. I have no pride in that, though. I am thankful nothing permanently untoward happened to me or my family or others as a result. As most of us should be. I somehow find the idea that beer drinkers are lower class a little out of date in the US ( and never was in vogue in the rest of the world outside of Islamic countries). I know Bud furthers this appeal by aiming at this target. Maybe these "beer bar" types are the largest consumer on a personal basis, but I find it hard to believe this is true in the conglomerate populatiion. I would hate to think that if I were to buy a sixpack that someone thinks for this reason "There goes another beer bum". I doubt it. For our Ozzie friends, and in the interest of linguistic clarity, a "beer bum" in this context has nothing to do with your posterior. Although some us of may have one, we aren't one from being homebrewers. Is that clear? Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:29:03 -0400 From: Rick Pauly <flp2m at virginia.edu> Subject: Question:High gravity dilution(again) We talked earlier about this sbject and found that O2 was the biggest problem. One solution being boiling and rapidly cooling the water then adding it to the beer. But what if the beer has been through primary and secondary and is ready for the keg which will then be pressurized with CO2 and I just had 1.5 gal per 5 gallon keg of boiled NOT cooled water. Any one see any problems? Rick Return to table of contents
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