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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Medicinal Beer (Christopher Farley)
  Lactose free sweet stout. (Brad McMahon)
  Old porter receipe ("Graham Sanders")
  Draught beer. (Alan Davies)
  toxic levels of methanol ("Dr. Pivo")
  Saccharine ramblings and wide open target ("pksmith_morin")
  Re: Strange Brew ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Old Porter ("Darrell G. Leavitt")
  Acorn Use Info ("Schneider, Brett")
  Detroit Water (Rod Prather)
  Hydrometers R Us ("Donald D. Lake")
  RE: Honey character ("Brian Lundeen")
  RIMS Procedures, Mashing In & Sparge Temps, Apple notes,HERMs ("Jay Wirsig")
  modern amber malts ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  A Coffee flavored beer ("Shane A. Saylor, Eccentric Bard")
  Re: RIMS Procedures, Mashing In & Sparge Temps, Apple notes,HERMs (Some Guy)
  Re: "Strange Brew" (Danny Breidenbach)
  Subject: longest time you can lager without harm? (Nathan Kanous)
  Love that dirty water! DETROIT! You're my home town... (Some Guy)
  Re: Strange Brew ("John Watts")
  What it means and why it still is a ghost that just won't die in your brewery Steve ("Richard Sieben")
  pH meters (William Frazier)
  Re: Old Porter ("Lubben, Mark E.")
  Methanol from Distillation? ("Dittmar, Robert D")
  Detroit City Water (Anthony and Mary Ann Tantillo)
  Oak shavings (adam larsen)
  Does unmalted grain have proteolytic enzymes?... ("Anthony Torrez")
  Bottled conditioned beer from a cornelius tank (Dan) (DKASEN7)


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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 00:32:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: Christopher Farley <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Medicinal Beer

> From: Jacob Jacobsen <beermakerdk at yahoo.com>
> Subject: "Strange Brew"
> 
> Fast forward to several weeks ago.  It's now late
> September. I had been unable to get any brewing done
> and was running out of beer.  I decided to try one of
> these to see it it was as bad as I remembered.  Wow! 
> The "medicinal" taste is gone and the beer is very
> drinkable.  Beer isn't supposed to improve with age,
> is it?  

You betcha.

I usually associate "medicinal" with "phenolic", like a Bavarian
Hefeweizen.

That said, here are some possibilities: 

1. That bottle of medicinal beer you tried was indeed infected. The one
you tried many weeks later wasn't. The quality of a single batch of
homebrew can vary from bottle to bottle.

2. The bottle of medicinal beer contained some residual chlorine, which
can can react with wort to create chlorophenols, which are discernable as
medicinal flavors even if present in tiny quantities.

3. The flavor you tasted was indeed a "green beer" flavor and it 'aged
out'. Over time, higher alcohols are reduced. Tannins, which cause a
astringent bitterness, will drop out. Diacetyl (butterscotch), and
acetylaldehyde (green apple-like) are absorbed by the yeast. But even as
the forces of good are acting on your beer, evil is at play. Oxidation
sets in, and little undesirable bacteria and wild yeast keep growing in
your beer. So age is beneficial, but only to a point. 

- ----
Christopher Farley
Northern Brewer / 1150 Grand Avenue / St. Paul, MN 55105
www.northernbrewer.com



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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:20:13 +0930
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Lactose free sweet stout.


Richard Dulany wrote:

>My question: is there an alternative non-fermentable sugar that I can
>use in place of lactose in making a sweet stout?

Many breweries do not even use lactose when making sweet stout.
Lactose is not particularly sweet but boosts the final gravity
so there is a great mouthfeel. Just reduce the amount of
bitterness and you will have a great sweet stout.

> Could I just add extra malt
> extract and hope that the yeast couldn't
> convert all the sugar to alcohol?

Yes - and lessen the amount of bittering hops.

Good luck.

Wimpy48124 at aol.com wrote:
> Two guys I work with won trips to the Games and they never saw any
> spiders in the 'loo.

The spiders were probably there but they might have been full up
on other tourists before your friends arrived.
Salties don't occur that far south - only Graham has salt water
crocs in his backyard. Now sharks... that's a different
story.
When I lived in New York I didn't see any alligators in the
sewers, but I knew they were there......

> They did say though, that the beer was great,
> [they have no taste, whatever is on sale {cheap!} is great to them]
> and that it was real cheap with the currency exchange. 

Grrr.. don't mention the exchange rate....

Cheers and beers!

Brad
Aldgate, Sth Australia.


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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 16:59:07 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Old porter receipe

G'day all

Well i was going to pull myself off line for a few days, you know, brew room
to make. But this topic is a bit dear to the old heart. so before i go off
and roast some grains for my Rauch beer this weekend, My input on this
subject.

I like to think i brew a fairly mean old style porter, with the addition of
brown malts and Bret.  But of course i'm biaised when it comes to my
creations.

So first my receipe and then comments

19 lites
2.0 kg pale two row malt
2.4 kg brown malt (home roasted of course)
0.8 kg Medium crystal (home roasted again)
0.2 kg Chocolate malt (yes again home roasted)

Londonise the water (i assume you can get the specs)
 mash single infusion at 66c
60 ibu bittering hop I use Pride of Ringwood (now isn't that a surprise)
10grams Goldings 10 minutes

Guiness ale yeast at 18c
and of course Bret yeast as well

Now nothing special about the mash and boil.  I recommend you read the bit
on Home Roasting and make your own brown malt. To me this is one of the
keys. Fresh roasted brown malt makes a wonderful flavour that just can't be
beat.  to me its far,far more authentic that bought brown malt. this could
be one of the problems with people trying to copy the old style.  fresh
roasted stuff also still has some enzymic strength (but reduced).

Now the Bret.  Be careful here. Bret is funny that sonme people will utterly
love it, while others give the exactly the same reaction as someone seeing
SWMBO for the first time. I have experiemented with various doses, up to 20
%, but consensis believes about 3% addition is more than enough (sometimes i
hate popular opinion.).  Anyway what i do is when the wort is cooled, I
separate 500ml and seed it with Bret. I let it ferment for a week, then
pasturise it (heat it in a pan at 80c for 10 minutes) and throw that into
the ferment.

The rest is stock standard. Again as earlier said, the older the better.
This is definitely one of those beers that, unlike women, age helps greatly.
6 months plus is ideal.

So thats it, now I'm off to make some Munich and cara-Munich.  I have a
Rauch-beer to make.

Shout

Graham Sanders

Oh if Scott is out there he might want to chime in on my porter.  After all
I did send him a bottle to try.




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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:05:06 +1000
From: Alan Davies <afjc at cnl.com.au>
Subject: Draught beer.

I have a problem with beer deteriating in kegs. Having been away for
three months, I found four diff. kegs of beer have deteriated in
quality. All were quite drinkable except for a haze[ this was my
interest in filtering] I have found that all beer have gone cloudy, even
the keg left on refrigeration. they are drinkable but only just. They
seem to have lost a lot of hop taste and have a slightly burnt taste.All
air was replaced with C.O.2.
I used Whirlfloc kettle finings in these brews on the cold break my
problem seems to have come in , in these brews. Comments would be
appreciated.
Alan Davies.



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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:19:54 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: toxic levels of methanol

AJ writes about methanol:

>  Yeast processing sugar don't produce
> methanol. Nevertheless, some does appear in the beer we make and in the
> distillers mash - I'll take a stab and say its at parts per billion
> level i.e. not enough to hurt you. Now if this parts per billion beer or
> mash is distilled the heads may contain methanol concentrated a thousand
> times over their level in the beer i.e. parts per million. This I would
> worry about.

Actually this is kind of a paradoxical thing.  Methanol itself is not
the problem, and not toxic to the optic nerve, leading to blindness, as
was cited earlier.

In the same manner as ethanol (booze) is broken down to acetaldehyde
(you know, the "cut green apple" taste, and 50,000 lines of "Bud has it,
Bud doesn't have it") in our friend the liver, so is ethanol's one
carbon deprived brother (methanol) broken down to  acetaldehyde's one
carbon deprived brother....commonly known as formaldehyde.

While acetaldehyde may be the chief booger responsible for the
"hangover", formaldehyde is toxic as hell...especially to nerves and not
just the optic one.... it's sort of like stripping the insulation off
your wiring.

More important in the methanol thing, is that the exact same enzyme
(alcohol dehydrogenase) does the deed to both alcohols, and I'm pretty
sure has a better binding affinity to our two carbon friend.

So what to do with a methanol poisoning?   Give them ethanol (?!). Oddly
as it may seem, if you increase the ethanol level, it will compete for
"enzyme space", keeping the methanol as such, and only allowing minute
amounts at a time to be converted to formaldehyde, at a rate at which
the body can "sort of" handle it.

So here comes the paradox: Since ethanol is the "cure" for methanol
poisoning, it is not only the absolute amount of methanol that matters,
but the proportion to ethanol.

Since the proportion would be the same whether concentrated or not, it
should in contrast to AJ's guess, not make a whit.... further, since
"everyone" lets the distillate before 78C go down the flush, or saves it
for shoe polish remover (this is the "methanol rich" portion) the
proportion of methanol to ethanol in beer is actually HIGHER than in its
distilled cousin.

But, as AJ so correctly stated:

> not enough to hurt you.

 ... just add the distillate to that list.

 ...On the other hand, formaldehyde is a great binder of polyphenolics,
and probably the most superior manner of reducing haze without affecting
proteins (head formation, body).

So for you individuals who put a crisp, clean, star bright, clear beer
on the top of your brewing priorities, there could be a good solution in
this for you....

 .... drink a bottle of wood alcohol (methanol), wait about two hours,
and then draw some of your blood and mix it in with your primary.

This will be efficacious in two manners.... formaldehyde precipitation
of polyphenols will lead to clearer beer.... and if you happen to get
the proportions "not quite right"... I promise you.... you won't "see"
the difference.

Dr. Pivo

PS All that seriousness and all those funny words in the same posting? I
was gon'na throw in something snide like:
 "That you believe unquestioningly in what you were told is clear an
 that is called superstition - so happy Halloween"
 ... but it did seem a bit mean.


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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 04:38:17 -0500
From: "pksmith_morin" <pksmith_morin at email.msn.com>
Subject: Saccharine ramblings and wide open target

I suppose I left myself exposed to Christopher Farley's written shot - (Say,
Chris, is that Bill Shakespeare I see there?) : ).

I should note that I am a professional (and brew a great deal still on my
own).  What I really meant to say was screw the homebrew supply shops.  Just
avoid them altogether,  and buy great hops through your local kind brewery...

Or, more appropriately, any purchase is a vote, and I still vote my
conscience, regardless of its impact.  And, as I started out as an avid
homebrewer, as did a great many of my colleagues (indeed, in America, I would
have to say most of my professional colleagues), the choices I made as a
homebrewer have informed the choices I make now.

In short, I am asking that we as brewers, regardless of our affiliation, look
at what we're doing and why - for me, it has always been about the beer and in
choosing ingredients for their impact on quality, and not primarily for their
profitable economy.

In my view, the rush to "Super Alpha" varieties has been spurred by the latter
motive, and that motive has never been good for craft anything, including
beer.

Cheers,


Paul




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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 06:40:25 +0000
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Strange Brew

Jacob asks about a medicinal flavor in his beer that mysteriously
disappeared after bottle conditioning for about 5 months.

I suspect that the off-flavor was due to phenols that may arise from various
sources.  Jacob suspects an infection caused the problem, but I'm not
convinced since Jacob doesn't describe any other evidences that the beer was
actually infected (e.g., cloudiness).  After that much time in the bottle, I
believe an infected beer would likely be overcarbonated.  Jacob, was there
any other evidence that this beer was infected?

Also Jacob, how well did the beer attenuate?  I have noticed that a
non-infected fermentation that results in such phenolic flavors often will
attenuate poorly, and I suspect that there are biproducts (perhaps the
phenols themselves) that inhibit complete fermentation.  I would offer that
other sources could have caused the off-flavor, such as pitching into a wort
that was quite warm.

As for the disappearance of the medicinal flavor, I am awaiting comments
from others more knowledgable than I about what yeast can do with phenols,
given enough time.
- -- 
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA



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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 06:09:40 -0400
From: "Darrell G. Leavitt" <leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu>
Subject: Old Porter


Jeff is right!  I bought a huge bag of the brown malt 
(Fawcett) thinking that I'd try to make an old 
porter...well...it was like real bad coffee...

I tried several other times, adding 2 row , and if my memory 
servers me well, I think that I came to the conclusion that 
about 1/2 lb is about all that most Porters could stand, and 
perhaps a pound in a stout (for a typical 8-10 lb grain 
bill)....it is real strong tasting, and as Jeff pointed out, 
has no diastatic power.

btw, I made a coconut porter recently that came out real 
good.  I have not gotten brave enough to use real coconut yet, 
but plan on doing so. I used Tony (lastname?)'s suggestion 
(Tony is the brewer  at  Elm City in Keene, NH) to not put the 
roasted barley in the mash, but rather in the lauter tun, and 
I do think that this cuts down a bit on the harshness that can 
sometimes accompany roasted barley...

 ..Darrell
<Terminally Intermediate Home-brewer>
- --------------------------
Darrell G. Leavitt, PhD
SUNY/ Empire State College
- --------------------------


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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:14:16 -0400
From: "Schneider, Brett" <Brett_Schneider at bose.com>
Subject: Acorn Use Info

I have a reprinted book at home that I keep forgetting to get complete title
and author of, but it discusses the use of acorn meat in beer. The book (and
I will confirm this over the weekend and post again) is something like Beers
and Wines of Old New England by C. Sandborn Crawford?

It says the normal handling procedure was to crack the nuts and bag them and
place them in a cold water fast running stream for some period of time to
leach them and preserve them at the same time. Then they can be used for the
brwing process.

I had a hankerin' to give it a try, so if others want to get a small group
of test subject brewers I'm game. Maybe we should pick a standard base ale
of some sort and a medium profile yeast and just let the nuts make the
difference. Sort like an Election Year Nutcase Ale....


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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:14:31 -0300
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Detroit Water

>     For anyone with Detroit city water, what style is our water best suited
> for [after de-clorination]? Also a question for Jeff Renner, what is your 
> water parameters, do you modify your water,  and how best to modify my
> local water for brewing your CAP? Are you on Detroit city water? 

In my earlier days, Strohs was my favorite "Lawnmower beer" (hot weather, 
quick drinking, slug 'em down style).  They closed the old Detroit brewery 
and screwed the beer up big time.  It's never been the same since. 
To quote a classic Coors commercial,

"It's the water".  

Just a data point, but who knows. <GRIN>


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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:58:25 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dlake at gdi.net>
Subject: Hydrometers R Us

I was toodling around on the world wide web and found a site for this
speciality company that manufactures hydrometers of all shapes, sizes
and kinds.  Check it out their site.  You'll find out way more than you
would ever want to know about hydrometers.

http://www.stevenson-reeves.co.uk/index.html

Don Lake



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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:08:17 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Honey character

Graham Sanders comes forth with a possible explanation for my perplexing
Pilsner with:

> Now this works fine, but every now and then and i mean rarely, I would
> produce a beer with a distinct honey flavour and aroma.
 Well bugger me if this honey
> flavour only occurred
> in Pale Ales / ESB's, and only when i bottled them, not out
> of the keg. Not
> in lagers, and not in any light coloured ales.  Also not in porters or
> stouts.

I've been trying to figure out the source of the strong honey character in
my recent Pilsner, and I thought it might be a characteristic of the DWC
Pilsner malt, which I had never used before this beer. (And like you, I
point this out to people with pride, as if that honey character was what I
was shooting for). It also has a sweetness that surprised me given the fact
that I mashed too low, and dropped my terminal gravity lower than I wanted,
and which is becoming more evident, although I thought this might relate to
the hop bitterness mellowing a bit with time.

The thing that sticks out with the Pilsner was how much I mucked about with
the mash, trying to get the pH down to what I thought were appropriate
levels. Possibly I "abused" the mash in my panic, possibly what I'm seeing
now with the honey character is a result of that. I hate to leap to
conclusions, but that was the only thing out of the ordinary with this
batch. Perhaps I am seeing this form of staling that was described. Take
from this what you will, but I am growing increasingly more careful in how I
handle my beers at all stages; in the mash, the recirc and sparge, the boil.
Perhaps it's time to invest in a CO2 tank (which I'm going to need for
kegging one day anyway) so I can purge my receiving vessels.

Cheers,
Brian

PS. No books were opened in any manner in preparing this report. The data
presented herein is entirely that of the author's and may be as outdated as
my fashion sense. All data was gathered without the aid of cat-swinging, and
with only mild offense to SWMBO, or as I like to think of her,
SWLMHMW(MOTT). Curiously, I find that word pronounceable after 2 or 3
barleywines. ;-)



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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:13:52 -0400
From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at can.dupont.com>
Subject: RIMS Procedures, Mashing In & Sparge Temps, Apple notes,HERMs

I have recently started up a RIMS brewery (10 ga MTl, MARCH Pump (as per
Tippen), 1/2" SS tubing with Swagelok fittings, SS False bottom 1/8" holes
hinged in middle, syphon dip tube 1/2" off bottom).   My Pump sits 20"
below the bottom of the tun.
I have had several problems:
1) I have had a problem with pluggage of the lines with grain/husk debris
that is a real pain.
2) I spend 15 min stirring to break up dry clumps - do others spend this
amount of time doing this?
3) Foaming in MT
I 'm wondering what other RIMS brewers use to prevent this.  My current
procedure is to put 1Q of water to lb of grain into the Mash tun and raise
it to strike temp using the inline heater and external heat.  I then add
the grains by pouring them in from a 5 gal pail (with pump off).  I find I
get a lot of clumps that are dry in the middle, I do a lot of stirring to
break up the clumps (15min).  I then restart the pump which plugs off after
a few minutes of recirc.  I then take apart the suction line to clean it
out and drain off a couple of quarts to ensure the line from the MT is
relatively clean.  I then reassemble the tubing and start the pump and
repeat if necessary.  During the mash I often see a bit of foaming in the
MT.  I have been recirculating at full rates as this is what seems to keep
the lines clear perhaps if I slowed the rate by closing the discharge valve
a little less foaming will occur.  Next time my plan is to recirculate a
gallon or so by hand using a measuring cup until the suction to the pump
runs free, then attach the pump suction, allow the pump to prime and
recirculate at full rates then start to close the dischage off a little.
Should I also increase the dilution rate of water per lb of grain?  What
are others RIMS brewers procedures.  My false bottom hole size is 1/32"
larger than SABCO's but I assume that pretty much every false bottom lets
some grain debris through (especially while it is being stirred in) until
the bed sets up a bit.
The temperature of my grain bed in the MT during sparge is 74 deg C enven
though I'm using 78deg C water from the HLT,  Should I raise the sparge
temp so that the MT temp is 77-78 deg C?
Why do RIMS system put their thermocouple in the recirculation line as
opposed to the grain bed.  Is it not grain bed temp that we are concerned
with? I have a fairly sophisticated system that uses a thyristor to pulse
the in-line heater on/off so I'm not too concerned about scorching the
wort.
Have I missed the post by Pat on how his decoction vs RIMs for his Weizen
tested?
I did a weizen with my RIMS following the same temp profile as the rest
mash in Warners book.  It was a little thin, phenolic and more apple with
only slight bannana It was fermented a 23dec C (my basement temp in Aug is
22 and I've estimated a deg or two for fermentation) and was oxygenated
using an aquarium pump (a new addition) and pitched with Wyeast
Weihenstephen, primed using corn sugar.  It did not compare to the
decoction batch that was fermented at 20 deg C, not oxygenated. I got a
stuck mash when doing this Weizen with my RIMS (I was using a slotted ring
at the time before my false bottom) so a lot of Oxygen would have gotten
into the mash as I was cleaning out the system repeatedly - would this give
me the apple?  I also boiled for 2h reducing by 15-17% which is high.
What does HERMS mean?




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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:31:55 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: modern amber malts

Christopher Farley <chris at northernbrewer.com> asked about experiences with
modern amber malt.

We find Beeston's Amber to be amazing. It's unlike any other Amber
available. It produces strong flavours somewhere between a biscuit and
Special-B. In practice you can use about 1/2 the amount of Beeston's for a
regular amber in any recipe. We love it in ESBs... Very toasty.


Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevisiae sugant."
______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com  www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:03:38 -0400
From: "Shane A. Saylor, Eccentric Bard" <taliesin2 at earthlink.net>
Subject: A Coffee flavored beer

I have a question on brewing brewing a coffee flavored beer. I know
one could use coffee beans like a Suprema or something similar from
Starbucks or a similar place. And I also realize that it may also throw 
off the alcohol content reading, but can one use  coffee flavored liquor
to make a coffee flavored beer? I also realize that the beer may be a 
dark one after adding the liquor (it is a bit syrupy). Thoughts?
- --
Everything on this earth has a purpose, and every disease an herb to
cure it, and every person a mission. This is the Indian theory of
existence. --Mourning Dove, 1888-1936 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: herbs-unsubscribe at witchhaven.com
For additional commands, e-mail: witchhaven-help at witchhaven.com




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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:48:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: RIMS Procedures, Mashing In & Sparge Temps, Apple notes,HERMs 

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Jay Wirsig writes...

> Have I missed the post by Pat on how his decoction vs RIMs for his 
> Weizen tested?

The non-decocted hefe needs a couple of weeks more to condition, and then
I'll triangle test it. On hydrometer sample tasting, I prefer the
non-decocted...

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday






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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:50:37 -0400
From: Danny Breidenbach <dbreiden at math.purdue.edu>
Subject: Re: "Strange Brew"

Jacob Jacobson asks:
"Beer isn't supposed to improve with age, is it?"

I dunno.  But I've read other stories about beer improving with age,
which is why I have my last batch, which was a miserable excuse for a
beer, still languishing in bottles.  Sampled several times over the past
18 months, it always came out bloody awful.  So it's clear that not all
faults disappear with age.

Interestingly, my last beer, yucky though it is, hasn't gotten any
worse.  So does that mean that at least I'm not totally hopeless?

- --Danny Boy



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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:51:52 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Subject: longest time you can lager without harm?

Karl Meyer asks..

>     For anyone with Detroit city water, what style is our water best suited
>for [after de-clorination]?

For God's sake Karl, make some Stroh's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
nathan in madison, wi


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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:00:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Love that dirty water! DETROIT! You're my home town...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Karl Meyer asks..

>For anyone with Detroit city water, what style is our water best suited
>for [after de-clorination]?

I once sent the Detroit analysis report to AJ for review. As I recall, he
stated that we are most fortunate and that our water can be used as the
basis water for any beer style. Of course, this was also over five years
ago. I'll call for a new report and see how it compares to that of
1995. I think we draw from "water park #4".

I've already brewed an amber ale, barley wine, stout, kolsch and
several hefes that fit style well this year, so I suspect the water hasn't
drastically changed from that report. ALso, I know of at least one extreme
west sider that comes inot Canton to fill his carboys with brewing
water. (Hi, Crispy!)

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:29:03 -0500
From: "John Watts" <watts at radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Strange Brew

A couple of years ago I tried making a Pumpkin Ale and overdid the spices a 
bit.  Okay a whole lot.  The result while interesting, was also very nasty.  I 
couldn't bring myself to dumping the whole lot, so I shoved it to the back of 
the beer closet and decided to forget about it until I needed bottles.  Fast 
forward 10 months and find me short on bottles.  I grabbed some of the Old 
Nasty, popped the tops and started to dump.  About halfway thru bottle 1 I 
noticed that the smell wasn't as bad as I remembered.  Took a swig of bottle 
2.  The overwhelming tastes had mellowed to the point where it was very 
drinkable.  Not great, but okay.

If you search the archives you'll find volumes on the effect time has on 
homebrew.  Basic rule is don't give up on your beer.  It can be very 
forgiving of the mistakes made in the process.  
You may not get what you were planning, but it may not be the total loss
you thought it would be.

Rgds 
John Watts
watts at radiks.net



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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:44:56 -0500
From: "Richard Sieben" <sier1 at email.msn.com>
Subject: What it means and why it still is a ghost that just won't die in your brewery Steve

Steve Alexander came down from the heavens and gave us a nice source of his
data, and using his data, HSA is still most likely a ghost.  (Nice report by
the way Steve, thank you for the reference!)
http://www.scisoc.org/asbc/journal/pdfs/1999/0204-05R.pdf

The beer they used in the test was a nice standard beer at 12 degrees Plato
and was something like a regular old corn lager made with 90% malt and 10%
corn.  If you look at table III closely, you will see what Steve is talking
about, yes the Nonenal potential is higher when you bubble PURE OXYGEN
through the wort as opposed to PURE CO2.  A little extreme don't you think
when compared to the real world?  I for one, do not bubble oxygen through my
wort, in fact I don't even bubble air through it which is what, 21% oxygen?
So even if I did make this special effort to bubble air through my wort,
can't I safely assume that I can only produce about 1/5 of the Nonenal
potential of doing the same with PURE OXYGEN?

Now look at the column for 'Natural Aging' which was storing the beer for
three months at room temperature, since this gave the highest (and most
damaging) parts per Billion concentrations of Nonenal potential.  The CO2
bubbling gave 0.27ppb, Oxygen bubbling with good hot break gave 0.98ppb and
Oxygen bubbling with poor hot break gave 2.69ppb.  So if I bubble air
through my wort I would expect to get .42ppb with good hot break.
(0.98-0.27)/5 to represent the potential additional pickup with good hot
break plus the 0.27ppb that is with CO2 bubbling which I assume to be the
minimum attainable.  Using the same logic, for a beer with poor hot break
(2.69-.27)/5+.27=0.754.

So what does that mean to us homebrewers?  Well for reference, I can barely
taste trans-2-nonenal at 2ppb in Bud Light, a beer that can hide no off
flavors whatever.  This report is talking about half of that in a beer with
a good hot break 0.98ppb, and a little more than that with poor cold break
2.69ppb, BUT THIS IS WITH ARTIFICIALLY BLOWING OXYGEN THROUGH THE MASH!
With standard brewing and not specifically trying to get air entrained into
my mash, I am sure I am getting less than the 0.754ppb and probably closer
to the .42ppb since I get a good hot break on my brews.  In either event, I
don't think I would taste it, even in the lightest beer I have ever made.
So even in a commercial setting, this is still a ghost.  Yes it's there, but
not at any level you can taste or maybe even accurately measure as being
beyond the margin for testing error.

Maybe you need to get out of the library and into the brewery for a change,
the beer you can drink is much more refreshing than the beer you can only
read about.  I think there are two kinds of brewers TFT and TFP brewers (too
f*cking theoretical and too f*cking practical) and you need to strike a
balance someplace in between.

For a Halloween treat I am going to soak some cardboard in water and hand it
out to the kiddies to see if they can taste it.

Rich Sieben
Island Lake, IL
Still home to the HSA spook house




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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:53:01 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: pH meters

I'm going to upgrade my pH meter in the near future.  Any recommendations
for a source and specific meter that will read to 0.01 pH units?

TIA, Bill Frazier
     Olathe, Kansas



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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:38:58 -0400
From: "Lubben, Mark E." <LubbenM at genrad.com>
Subject: Re: Old Porter

Chris and Drew are discussing historical (1700s) porters.

Back in 96 or 97 I was interested in trying a semi-historic porter
and came up with my first totally original recipe.  I was trying to
create a beer which avoided sticky sweet brown ales and the
stout "burnt". Like ultra-dark toast. The result was quite successful
even with some Bud drinkers.  It became my house dark beer.

I recently retraced my earlier research through Spencer Thomas's
beer page http://realbeer.com/spencer/ .  If you look in the recent
searches (or under B) in his "list of previous searches" you can
find my searches for "brown\ malt AND porter" for 92 and 94 - 98.
Dunno how to search for "brown malt" & not brown porter on hbd.org.
The major discussions were in 94/95 with a nice series from
Jethro Gump in 97 when he was still brewer at kansas.net   :^)

Be careful of too much (modern) brown malt !
I just brewed a batch, after not brewing much last year, and I think
Jasper's in Nashua NH (plug ;^) may have changed vendors for
their brown malt.  I believe in 97 they were selling Hugh Baird
and for some reason I think the recent stuff may be Beestons?
It may just be process/batch changes though. The new malt is
a little harsher smelling (+bitterer) and gave a very faint kerosene?
character when the beer had just finished primary.  The odd aroma
reduced after secondary and disappeared when carbonated.
I still get more "black malt like" bitterness than I remember.

Enough said, here is my recipe.  I know the Galena is not authentic
but I was just looking to finish with clean bitter (session). I considered
some rauch or sour malt but skipped it.  The name is from trans-US
train memories ala Thin Man movies and Grandpa's (John Henry)
dispatcher pocket watch plus a mellow jazz instrumental w/name.


Night Train - Porter
** 10 US gallons **

13lb   Pale ale malt
 2lb   Brown malt (Hugh Baird?)
 2lb   Belgian Biscuit malt ("Amber")
 1lb   Munich Dark malt (can use 2#)
 1lb   Crystal malt 60L
 1lb   Chocolate malt UK

1.3oz  Galena (11.5%AA)  60 min
1oz    Kent Goldings      7 min
Irish Moss (optional)
Muntons(dry) or other British ale yeast

Mash at 152F for 90 minutes

Mark Lubben
John Henry Brewing
Pepperell, MA



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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:45:29 -0500
From: "Dittmar, Robert D" <Robert.D.Dittmar at stls.frb.org>
Subject: Methanol from Distillation?

I have noticed several responses to Doug Brown's post concerning methanol
over the past couple of days and thought I might add my two cents.

I think that the reason that distillers discard the initial distillate is
due to its high concentration of aldehydes, not a high concentration of
methanol.  A link has been forged between methanol and distilled spirits
probably due to unscrupulous prohibition-era bootleggers and distillers
mixing methanol with bootleg hootch in an effort to cut costs.  I think the
methanol in illegal liquor was added after distillation, not introduced as a
result of it.  I understand that methanol is far more intoxicating than
ethanol so that a small addition would have substantially boosted the good
feelings gained from a shot of bathtub gin - at least prior to the onset of
blindness that resulted from drinking too much.

Rob Dittmar
St. Louis, MO




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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:32:52 -0400
From: Anthony and Mary Ann Tantillo <amtantillo at earthlink.net>
Subject: Detroit City Water

On Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 12:15:59AM -0400, Karl Meyer wrote:
>     For anyone with Detroit city water, what style is our water best suited 
> for [after de-clorination]? Also a question for Jeff Renner, what is your 
> water parameters, do you modify your water,  and how best to modify my local 
> water for brewing your CAP? Are you on Detroit city water? 

I've brew with Detroit city water and have made several tasty cream ales. 
I haven't modified the water for them; perhaps I should.  In general, 
Detroit city water is pretty good right out of the box, in my opinion.

Tony Tantillo




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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:07:14 -0600
From: adam larsen <euphonic at flash.net>
Subject: Oak shavings

Some time back the subject of oak shavings came up: >Date: Tue, 19 Sep
2000 07:22:00 -0400
>From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: oak shavings
>
>Chris asks-
>i hear allot of talk about oak chips and shavings etc. ... what's my
best way to
go about this add some shavings to my fermenter
or throw some in to my boil ? thanks a million !!
>
Put the oak in your fermenter - definitely NOT in in the boil as you
would extract way too many tannins. The beer would probably be
undrinkable, certainly very astringent.
>
Think about how oak was used - beer was stored in barrels, not boiled in
oak
tuns.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------  
I think that their is a lot to say about this.  First off,  
wood shavings were used in pre industrial times for the production
of a wide variety of ales, some time in combination with various 
gruits and sometimes with no other flavoring agents at all.  In 
the Baltics shavings were often boiled along with the strike water
for the purpose of extracting the wood's tannins and astringent
characteristics which helped to preserve the ale.  Some woods also
provided fine aromatic qualities.
    In order to prevent such a beverage from becoming unduly harsh.
I would recommend that one use a high gravity recipe characterized 
by a high mash temperature.  Such a shaving ale is far better when 
their is a full body with alot of residual sweetness such as is 
found in cream ales.
    Ales in which the shavings are held together with twine 
and placed into the secondary fermenter tend to be suited 
best towards high gravity ales that have their preserving 
agents being provided by means other then the wood.  For some 
strange reason, Beach wood when used in such a capacity does 
help with clarification and i know of several brewers that
use such a method during lager production.
    In so far as oak is concerned, i have very seen few 
references to it's use in shaving ales.  Primarily, oak shavings 
were used in the mash during very elaborate mashing regimens of high
adjunct grist bills used in the production of low country table ales. 
Although to a lesser extent, quite minor actually, one can 
find references to ultra high gravity fruit ales using 
such a method.  
   I personally, as a result of my ethnic proclivities i suppose, 
find juniper, uwe, birch, linden and beach wood far preferable 
for use in my brewing.  However, for those of  you fortunate 
enough to have access to pinion wood the opportunity to make truly 
lovely shaving ales should not be denied.


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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:39:57 GMT
From: "Anthony Torrez" <perpacity at hotmail.com>
Subject: Does unmalted grain have proteolytic enzymes?...

Does unmalted grain have proteolytic (SP?) enzymes?... I'd assume
not. What I'm going to be doing is brewing an entirely oat beverage
(NO MALT AT ALL!!!) And I was wondering if plain rolled oats had those
proteolytic enzymes to reduce proteins into amino acids. Chances are
that they dont, so my real question is what types of enzymes could I
add (What enzymes are in malted barley?) and in what quantities? I'd
imagine that bromelain and papain are a start.
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:22:38 EDT
From: DKASEN7 at aol.com
Subject: Bottled conditioned beer from a cornelius tank (Dan)

Preferring bottled conditioned beer, I have been putting my sterilized 
sugar/water in a cornelius tank before transferring the beer into it.  The 
tank is than used to bottle beer directly from it by siphoning the beer from 
the tank into thoroughly cleaned bottles before capping.  I should note that 
prior to adding the beer, I pressurize the tank with carbon dioxide and bleed 
it so that it is purge of air.  Sometimes I get Brettanomyces in the bottle 
beer and sometime I don't. Does anyone else bottle in this manner and if so 
do you have similar problems? 


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---