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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: Miller and Celis ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Source of Caps (Bob Hall)
  Smoke ("Ray Daniels")
  ABT false bottom (Jim & Patti Hust)
  One more thing on recycling yeast ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Iron Removal (Martin_Brungard)
  RE: Large Corporation Rant (Doug Hurst)
  Re: false bottoms (Jeff Renner)
  Re: One more thing on recycling yeast (Jeff Renner)
  Re: making the plunge to all-grain ("patrick finerty jr.")
  FB's and Lauter Design (Richard Foote)
  RIMS Heater ("Branam, Mike")
  ABT false bottom ("Richard Sieben")
  Re: Large Corporation Rant (Matthew Arnold)
  RE: False bottoms (LaBorde, Ronald)
  pick up tubes ("Stephen Lane")
  Real Ale Homebrew Competition ("Ray Daniels")
  The Homebrewer's Night Before Christmas (Jeff Renner)
  Fluid Flow Study of False Bottoms (Info)


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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:12:12 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Miller and Celis

thought I'd forward on the following (from the RealBeer Page newsletter) on
the planned sale of Celis by Miller - looks like Pierre is interested in
gettting back in the game.

* * * *

MILLER TO SELL CELIS -- COULD IT BE BACK TO CELIS?
Miller Brewing Co. plans to sell the Celis Brewery and trademark and
close the Austin, Texas, brewery by the end of the year. Pierre Celis,
visiting Austin on Friday, said that his family might be interested in
repurchasing the rights and recipes to their specialty beer. But they
would need a partner.  "If there is another brewer, I would be ready. I
think that is the best solution," Celis told the Austin-American
Statesman. "At my age (he is 75), it is difficult to start alone the
brewery. If I have a partner to help, I would able again make the
quality beer." The Celis Brewery has 10 employees and sold 15,000
barrels in 1999, a tiny fraction of Miller's overall sales of 44.1
million barrels. Miller bought a majority stake in the Celis Brewery in
1995, then in April purchased the Celis family's minority interest in
the business. That sale occurred when the Celis family exercised an
option that required Miller to buy their share.

     http://www.realbeer.com/news/articles/news-001419.html




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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 08:21:36 +0000
From: Bob Hall <nap_aca_bh at nwoca.org>
Subject: Source of Caps

A number of years ago I puchased 12 gross of overrun softdrink caps at a
flea market in Colorado Springs. These have served me well, but alas the
supply is running low. Can anyone in the collective direct me to a good
source of bulk caps?

Thanks,
Bob



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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:00:10 -0600
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Smoke

I'm sorry to say that I can't explain the phenomena of disappearing smoke in
beer either.  This despite having just written a book on brewing smoked
beers.  There is a whole bunch of chemistry that might have an impact like
absorption by yeast, precipitation with proteins, etc -- still no definitive
answer.

At one point several years ago, I decided that the clever way to do things
was to make two beers:  one with way more smoke than you would ever want and
one that is the same in all respects except no smoked malt.  Once they are
finished, blend to taste.

Great concept, only problem is that when I tried it, the "smoky" one had
little or no perceptible smoke flavor. In retrospect, the smoked malt may
have been old and wimpy, but I haven't repeated the attempt again since.

Having talked to many smoked beer brewers in the last several years, I have
never found one who had had one of these "lost smoke" experiences.
According to them, the real determinant of smoke flavor in the finished beer
is the smokiness of the malt itself.  This may be discerned on a gross scale
(e.g. Is it smoky?) by tasting the malt, but at a practical level seems to
depend entirely on tasting the finished beer.

Clearly the smoke flavor delivered by malt declines with age.  When working
with a seasonally produced inventory of malt over as little as six months,
some brewers increase the proportion of smoked malt used by 30 to 50 percent
in order to achieve consistent flavor results.  Given that the commercially
available smoked malts come from overseas and filter their way to
homebrewers through wholesalers, distributors and retailers, you don't
really know what strength of smoke you'll be getting.  Thus, pilot brews are
recommended.

Finally, with regard to Micah's comment on peat malt. Peat malt must be used
sparingly (less than 5 percent of the grist) or you'll get nothing but a
piercing phenolic note.  I've been judging smoked beers at GABF and NHC for
several years now and I can only think of ONE that had a pleasant
peat-smoked flavor to it.  For my money, wood is the only way to go.

Ray Daniels
Editor-in-Chief
Zymurgy & The New Brewer
(and co-author of the upcoming Style Series book, "Smoked Beer")
E-mail:  ray at aob.org



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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 08:25:50 -0600
From: Jim & Patti Hust <ph01731 at navix.net>
Subject: ABT false bottom


Adding to the recent replies to the false bottom query, I've been
very happy with the ABT (yadda, yadda) false bottom I've been using
in my converted sanke keg mash tun.  At $32 including the pickup
tube, it was very economical, too.  Extremely strong, and nice clear
runoff.

I too just bought an ABT stainless false bottom for my brew kettle,
converted 1/2 bbl.  Seems to work great.  I used leaf hops in my last
brew session and it was fun to not have to strain them out. One
question, the pickup tube fits very close to the bottom, like nearly
touching.  How close to the bottom is optimal?



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:40:26 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: One more thing on recycling yeast

John Peed still has questions on recycling his yeast:

>Thanks to all for the input on repitching yeast.  As with most subjects,
>there were many conflicting opinions, but all were informative.  One more
>question.  Many have expressed the opinion that it's best to repitch with
>yeast from the secondary, but I use isenglass to fine the secondary (it
>works very well for me).  So the question is: Does the use of isinglass
make
>the yeast unsuitable for repitching?  

Yeast cells will bind to isinglass finings but I do not know if leaving it
in there will have any adverse effects upon repitching.  I would assume not,
but would prefer to at least wash the yeast or resuspend and decant off of
the first sediments (which should be yeast bound isinglass particles).  

As for primary vs. secondary yeast cakes, secondary yeast cakes are much
cleaner than primary yeast cakes.  That's probably why they are preferred.
However, secondary yeast cakes will have a high number of cells from younger
generations.  As the growth progresses, dissolved wort oxygen and lipids are
consumed which are necessary nutrients to yeast sterol production.  Sterols
are required compounds for health yeast cell walls and are split between the
mother and daughter yeast cells when they bud from each other.  If there's
no more dissolved oxygen and not enough lipids in the trub for the yeasts to
make more sterols, the sterol content will rapidly diminish in subsequent
generations.  Result: younger generation cells having weak cell walls and
are poor performers.

Sterols will not be replenished until you feed your yeasts again with new
wort containing a high dissolved wort oxygen level or a good bit of trub
lipids.  So if you plan on only re-using your yeast cake one or possibly
twice, secondary yeasts wouldn't be a bad idea.  Heck, just drop the new
wort right onto the old cake and shake it up good to dissolve as much air as
possible.  I've done it in a pinch and it works just fine.  If you plan on
reusing two or more times however, I'd suggest using your primary cake.

Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato


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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:31:50 -0500
From: Martin_Brungard at urscorp.com
Subject: Iron Removal

Iron removal has been accomplished in the past by raising the pH to
precipitate the metals. I think the water needs to get into the 10 pH or
higher range to be effective. I think quick lime may be the stuff to use.
You can filter after the water has settled to save loading up your filter
or you could decant. You would have to reacidify afterwards to bring the
water back into shape for brewing. The by product of this operation is that
you would also reduce hardness and carbonates in the water.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL



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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:58:01 -0600 
From: Doug Hurst <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: RE: Large Corporation Rant

OK so maybe this is starting to get off topic but here it goes...

Dave Houseman writes:
"Doug Hurst goes into rant mode about large corporations. While I share the
frustration over Celis' closing, blaming Miller, and other large
corporations for similar actions is misplaced. Does Doug, or anyone else
with similar feelings own any stock? Any mutual funds? Participate in a
401K? An IRA? A pension plan? All of these invest in equities and all of
these equities are under pressure from their share holders, us, to out
perform the market as a whole and each other. "We have met the enemy and
they is us...""

Of course large corporations are driven by the need to perform but that does
not necessitate product homogenization or flat out destruction of minor
competitors.  In fact I would assert that those who do create an original or
unique product stand a better chance of good market performance (at least
initially).  Additionally, it is possible to invest in stocks (including
mutual funds) while maintaining ideals.  There are plenty of idealogical
mutual funds who invest only in companies that fall into their guidelines
such as "no tobacco" or "environmentally conscious".  Sure, they may or may
not perform as well as those that invest only in the best performers, but
being conscientious can be more important than greed.  And, if everyone
invested in those companies they would be the top performers.  In other
words, "We have met the enemy and they do not have to be us".

Doug Hurst
Chicago IL



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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:22:21 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: false bottoms

Brewers

My false bottoms are from Pico-Brewing Systems 
http://www.pico-brewing.com/, owned by AABG member and homebrewer and 
microbrewer Mike O'Brien (Usual disclaimer).  Here are specs for the 
one that fits 1/2 bbl Sankey system:

Copper Screen
 - 15.375" Diameter 
 - 2 piece 
 - slotted perforations (.046"x.3125" ) 

Note it uses slotted perfs just like the big boys.  I think Mike had 
a bunch of the stock custom made for him.

Another part of the system is a support for the bottom:

Stainless Steel Support
 - removable 
 - designed to fit 15.375" dia. kettle 
 - 2.25" tall

Mike's a great guy and a real seat of the pants engineer and brewer. 
I think he has been making these systems longer than Sabco, and if 
you buy from him, you're supporting another homebrewer.

Another testimonial:

"I *L*O*V*E* my [Pico] system. 'Cept for that gonging noise it makes 
when my wife throws it off the bed at night.  Women..."  --Pat Babcock

The wort trapped below false bottoms has never seemed to me to be a 
real problem as it gets increasingly diluted by sparging.  I think it 
would be a problem for no-sparge brews, though.  There is also the 
theoretical problem of using more mash-in water and diluting your 
enzymes, but most of us have enzymes to spare.

Jeff
- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:29:36 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: One more thing on recycling yeast

"Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>  wrote:

>Many have expressed the opinion that it's best to repitch with
>yeast from the secondary

I think the best yeast to repitch (in the case of ales) is from the 
top pancake.  I prefer to use an ale yeast that that is a real top 
fermenter and makes a good pancake.  I skim the early brown cruddy 
stuff and then on the third or fourth day, when it's nearly done 
fermenting, I skim all the beautiful clean yeast off and save it.  At 
this point it is cleansed of trub, dead yeast cells, etc.

British breweries repitch this kind of yeast for years.  I've only 
done it for maybe six consecutive brews.

Jeff
- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:38:53 -0500
From: "patrick finerty jr." <zinc at finerty.net>
Subject: Re: making the plunge to all-grain

Wayne has some questions about going all grain...

congrats on your decision, you won't regret it. it was by far the best
thing for my beer i've ever done.

On December 5, 2000, Wayne Love wrote:

 > 1.. I can buy Cdn 2 row grain for about $37cdn per 25kg. or spend
 > $69 cdn for Maris Otter. I plan to brew mostly pale ales and
 > bitters. Is it worth it to pay the extra for Maris Otter or other
 > premium grains?

i'm in Canadaland as well (Toronto) and get my CDN two row for $30 per
25 kg. i don't have to have it delivered though...

i'm not sure what noticeable difference, if any, there is between CDN
two row and the European malts. i suspect you'll just be paying for
the name but this is only my opinion and not based on any testing. 

 > 2.. What do most home brewers recommend for good cheap scales? Both
 > for measuring grains and hops etc. I've noticed some relatively
 > cheap digital scales (Royal ex2) on ebay for approx.$20 to $25. Has
 > anyone used these?

while good and cheap are not necessarily coincident for scales, you
really don't need to measure very small amounts except for salts used
in water additions (e.g., adding 1.5 g of a salt to 55 L of water).
you can avoid this issue by making concentrated stock solutions and
then adding small volumes from that. decent plastic pipets are cheap
and reusable.

anyway, i've looked around ebay and saw some good deals but could not
find the scales you mentioned above. if i were you, i'd spend around
$100 for a good scale. in general you will pay more for something that
handles more mass and is more precise. you can check the accuracy of
the scale using a good pipet and water (weighs 1 g/ml) if you don't
have standards.

good luck,

patrick in Toronto
- -- 
       "There is only one aim in life and that is to live it."
 Karl Shapiro,(1959) from an essay on Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer
	      finger pfinerty at nyx10.nyx.net for PGP key
			http://finerty.net/pjf


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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 11:11:57 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: FB's and Lauter Design 

Thank you Martin for your excellent post on false bottoms and tun design.
It's a winner.

Martin writes:

>But the point is...you will incur increased short circuiting of the flow
if >your manifolds are too close to the walls. The same thing can be said
for FBs, >the FB perforations don't really need to go all the way to the
side walls.

This backs up my observations on less than stellar performance of my lauter
tun featuring a full false bottom to the walls of my tun.  His post also
backs up the observations of good performance of the S in S design, which
features both a very small volume under the FB and a size that stops 2 to
3" short of the tun wall-keys to a good design.  Points well taken.

Back to planning my new lauter tun...


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing and Home Remodeling
Murrayville, GA



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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:12:40 -0500 
From: "Branam, Mike" <Mike.Branam at BellSouth.COM>
Subject: RIMS Heater

I am looking at building a RIMS system I have pumps and digital thermostat
that I used in my salt water aquarium. I need some ideas on the heater
element and tube. I have seen hot water heater elements used with 1.5 inch
cooper pipe as the tube for the heater. What wattage and length of heater
element do I need? Is there a better way than this? I also have a spinning
sprinkler that I could use for returning the wort back to the top of the
mash. Is there a problem with the splashing that would occur?


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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:23:43 -0600
From: "Richard Sieben" <sier1 at email.msn.com>
Subject: ABT false bottom

Strom C. Thacker asked about using the ABT false bottom in a RIMS setup.
The ABT RIMS setup uses the same false bottom, with the center punched out
to accept the fitting on the bottom of the system.  (yes I know the folks at
ABT, but I am just an exptremely happy customer).  It works like a champ, it
is very strong and i can't imagine it ever collapsing.

Rich Sieben
Island Lake, Il
(northwest nowhere from Chicago)





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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:28:23 -0600
From: Matthew Arnold <revmra at iname.com>
Subject: Re: Large Corporation Rant

On Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:19:42 -0500, you wrote:

>Doug Hurst goes into rant mode about large corporations.  While I share the
>frustration over Celis' closing, blaming Miller, and other large
>corporations for similar actions is misplaced.  Does Doug, or anyone else
>with similar feelings own any stock?  Any mutual funds?  Participate in a
>401K?  An IRA?  A pension plan?  All of these invest in equities and all of
>these equities are under pressure from their share holders, us, to out
>perform the market as a whole and each other.  "We have met the enemy and
>they is us..."

There is a modicum of truth to this. However, it was a boneheaded decision by
Miller to buy a brand they had no interest in supporting. It was rudderless
(mis)management that caused this, not stockholder pressure. As someone else
pointed out, I'm sure someone lost their job because of this fiasco, and now
they are cutting bait. Unfortunately, I knew that was going to happen the
moment I heard that Miller had bought them out in the first place.

I also express the hope that someone will buy it back from Miller and turn back
it into what it once was.

Matt
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:41:19 -0600 
From: rlabor at lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: False bottoms

From: "Strom C. Thacker" <sthacker at bu.edu>

>Here's a question for the collective: does anyone out there use the 
>ABT false bottom with a RIMS system?  It comes with a 3/8" ID pickup 
>tube.  I've used it successfully with a pump, but I don't use a 
>heating chamber or automated temperature control so I'm not a RIMSer 
>(yet).  Just judging by sight, it seems to recirculate at a fairly 
>fast rate, but I'm curious if anyone has actually tried it with a 
>full RIMS system.

Yes, I do in my RIMS. You can browse my web page URL listed below.  I have
brewed several dozen batches, some 5 gal., some 10 gal.  Mostly I have good
results with circulation.  Sometimes, and I have not figured out why, I will
have a stuck mash.  This usually occurs after I do a lot of stirring.
Perhaps the grain gets under the FB, as I do not secure it to the bottom.
One day after I brew, instead of tossing the grain into the compost - and
what a smoker that makes! - I will play around with the used grain and try
to find out what's going on there.

Ron La Borde

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsuhsc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:49:26 -0600
From: "Stephen Lane" <stephenl at mailprint.com>
Subject: pick up tubes

With all this talk of manifold vs. false bottom vs. stainless braid...  I
quiestion what impact the pick up tube has on channeling at the base of the
tun.  I brew on a RIM with stainless false bottom using a single pick up
tube centered.  It is 1/2" copper tubing.  What is the collective thought on
using a pick up tube system with multiple pick up points?  Should I be using
an H system below the false bottom similar to my return manifold.  I am
creating a channeling effect by using only a single pick up area?
With the stainless braid, how much effective pick up is one getting , say,
36 inches down the braided hose away from the where the pick up tube is
connected?  If the flow reduces the further down the lick up tube you go,
than is there any advantage to a lengthy braided hose?  Should the hose have
pick ups at both ends to reduce channeling?




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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:58:34 -0600
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Real Ale Homebrew Competition

For those who may be interested in attending the Real Ale Festival in
Chicago March 1-3, the event kicks off with a walk-around homebrew brewoff
that you may wish to participate in.  Space for entries is limited, but it
is an opportunity to have your beer tasted by a room full of pro brewers and
judges who generally know real ale.  We also give awards to the top three.
Anyway, let me know if you are interested and I'll shoot you the entry info
or you can checkout this link:  www.realalefestival.com/hbcomp01.htm

Ray Daniels
Real Ale Festival Organizer
raydan at ameritech.net
www.RealAleFestival.com



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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 23:01:59 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: The Homebrewer's Night Before Christmas

Brewers

My son sent me this.  A friend of his sent it to him saying when he 
saw it he immediately thought of his dad (me).  Not sure of its 
origin, but it's clever.

Jeff


The Homebrewer's Night Before Christmas

'Twas the night before Christmas, and all through the house,
Every creature was thirsty, including the mouse...
The steins were empty, and the bottles were too
The beer had been drunk with no time to brew.

My family was nestled all snug in their beds
While visions of Christmas Ale foamed in their heads.
Mama in her kerchief lamented the drought,
She craved a pilsner and I, a stout.

When out on the lawn, there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my chair to see what was the matter.
Away to the kitchen, I flew like a flash,
Opening the door with a loud bang and crash!

I threw on the switch and the lights, all aglow,
Gave a luster of mid-day to the brew-pot below.
When, what to my wondering eyes should appear
But Gambrinus himself, the patron of beer.

With a look in his eye, so lively and quick,
He said, "You want beer? Well, here, take your pick."
More rapid than eagles, his recipes came
As he whistled and shouted and called them by name.

"Now, Pilsener! Now, Porter! Now, Stout and Now Maerzen!
On, Bitter! On, Lager! On, Bock and On Weizen!"
"To the top of the bottles, the short and the tall,
Now brew away, brew away, and fill them all!"

As dried hops before a wild hurricane fly,
And then, without warning, settle down with a sigh,
So towards the brew-pot, the ingredients flew,
Malt extract, roasted barley and crystal malt, too.

And then in a twinkling, I heard it quite plain,
The cracking open of each barley grain.
As I drew in my head and was turning around,
Into the kitchen, he came with a bound.

He was dressed like a knight, from his head to his toes,
With an old family crest adorning his clothes.
A bundle of hops, he had flung on his back,
And the brewing began when he opened his pack.

His hops were so fragrant! His barley, how sweet!
The adjuncts included Munich malt and some wheat.
The malted barley was mashed in the tun,
Then boiled with hops in the brew-pot 'till done.

Excitement had me gnashing my teeth,
As the sweet smell encircled my head like a wreath.
Beer yeast was pitched, both lager and ale,
The wort quickly fermented, not once did it fail.

It was then krausened, or with sugar primed,
And just being bottled when midnight had chimed.
A wink of his eye and a twist of his head,
Soon gave me to know, I'd be shortly in bed.

He spoke not a word but kept on with his work,
And capped all the bottles, then turned with a jerk.
And laying a finger alongside his nose,
He belched (quite a burp!) before he arose.

Clean-up was easy, with only a whistle,
And away the mess flew, like the down on a thistle.

And I heard him exclaim, 'ere he left me the beer,
"Merry Christmas to all and a HOPPY New Year!"


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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 01:10:23 -0300
From: Info <info at alean.com.ar>
Subject: Fluid Flow Study of False Bottoms

Hi folks!! I saw light at home and came in...

I'm new in the digest list (from Argentina) and I would like to get a copy
of the posted article about "Fluid Flow Study of False Bottoms". Also if
you some one can explain me what is a manifold ( perhaps because english
is not my first language I'm confused with this term)

>From Argentina, member of the BrewHouse Club (Buenos Aires),

Best Regards, 

Mauricio Wagner


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