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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
Acid Washing Yeast (Ant Hayes)
RE: Mini Kegs (Bruce Wingate)
advice re: chilling a Vienna Lager (leavitdg)
Florida Bottle Bill ("Mark Tumarkin")
oh sure...I've never had any problems (Marc Sedam)
Mini Kegs ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
Thermocouple Wire ("Mike Pensinger")
Re:Keg Lube ("Vernon, Mark")
Lager at ale temps (Nathan Kanous)
Gump Report/AHA National Homebrew Comp (Ken & Bennett Johnson)
Chilling the Wort ("ZANON, JON")
Drying Carboys w/ a Fermentap Stand ("John B. Doherty")
Balto Breweries? (mohrstrom)
Re: CO2 cylinders (Jeff Renner)
Keg lube, removing labels (Beaverplt)
Aeration (all sides)/phenolic extraction (steve-alexander)
Re: pH and tannins and decoctions (Jeff Renner)
Re: aeration of wort (Jeff Renner)
de-fizz, dry-cleaning, priorities ("Songbird Tulip")
Keg lube and *Fantastik* ("elvira toews")
Decocted<>astringent (The Man From Plaid)
Aging ales in Cornies at 75 F? (Don Price)
Yeast counting and good ale from garage malt (Clifton Moore)
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:45:25 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Acid Washing Yeast
My brewing coach has questioned my yeast acid washing process because it
does not have the following features:
1. Washing to take place below 4C.
2. Yeast slurry first to be rinsed in sterile water.
Simply put, my process involves dropping the pH of a yeast slurry to 2,0 for
1,5 hours, and then pitching. It seems to have worked for me, in that I have
had no abnormal ferments or infections (that I can detect anyway).
Do any of the yeast experts have comment on whether the features listed
above are compulsory. Have I just been lucky?
Ant Hayes
Gauteng; South Africa
Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:34:31 -0800
From: Bruce Wingate <bwingate at optonline.net>
Subject: RE: Mini Kegs
>>From: "Tom Byrnes" <kmstfb2 at exis.net>
Subject: Mini Kegs
I am considering supplementing bottling with a mini keg system
using the Philtap. Experienced users please provide your feedback (positive
& negative). Thanks Tom <<
I have used my Philtap once, and it worked well. I haven't used it lately
basically because of opportunity. One thing that I highly recommend is the
pressure relief bung from Listerman.com. I stopped using mini-kegs because
of deforming kegs from over-pressurizing (at 1/2 usual carbonation level),
the relief bungs fixed that problem.
Bruce.
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:29:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: advice re: chilling a Vienna Lager
I continue to attempt to make lagers/ pilsners , in spite of the fact
that I do not have very precise temperature control ( I put the carboy
into a plastic trash can filled with water...and drop the temp with
ice...slowly..). On 3/11/01 I attempted a Vienna Lager.
It contained:
10 lb Vienna Malt
1 lb Caravienne
mash in , then rest for 45 at 145
I pulled the thick decoction (about 1/3?) heated to 160F, rested 15,
boiled and added back to the mashtun, boosted the whole thing to 158F,
rested for 30...mashout...recirculated and sparged with about 7 gal .
First runnings were 1.09
boil gravity was 1.062
original gravity was 1.068
going into the secondary last night it was 1.02
I used slurry (about 3/4 of a growler) from a previous batch of German
Lager (wlp830)...slowly dropped and tried to keep the temp between
50 and 55F.
Ok, here finally is the question: It is now at 55F. It tastes ok, ie
resembles what I think it should...but it has more body...and is a bit
more sweet than I'd like. I am thinking that I'll leave it at 55 for
a few days...hoping that the yeasties that I pulled from the bottom
may just do a little more work...then I plan on dropping it,,,3 or so
degrees per day. Does anyone have advice on what sort of temp plan I
should use so as to facilitate the yeast in both eating up whatever
fermentables are left...and then helping it to clear?
...Darrell
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:38:01 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Florida Bottle Bill
Hey y'all,
For all of you in Florida, the time to really start calling your legislators
is here. The House will vote on Bill 187 sometime this week, perhaps as early
as Thursday. The vote on the Senate bill will follow soon thereafter. Start
calling and e-mailing your legislators, especially your House representatives
ASAP.
You can find all the contact info at -
for the Representatives -
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Legislators/index.cfm?Chamber=House&Submenu=1
for the Senators -
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Legislators/index.cfm?Chamber=Senate&Submenu=1
Calling your own area's representatives is most important (but call or email
as many as you can). You will probably get a staffer, just tell them you want
the Representative to vote in favor of Bill 187. This is our last, best chance
to change this stupid and repressive law. Things are looking very favorable at
this point but we want to keep the pressure up till we're successful.
thanks for your help,
Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:24:30 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: oh sure...I've never had any problems
Ahhhh...my favorite response. "I've never had problems and won
lots of medals so don't question my methods." Seems we've seen
that a few times lately. Although I know little about the
individual prowess of the brewers here (other than I've been
permanently turned off playing rugby with ANY of you) I would bet
that very few of you really know how good your cleaning
procedures are or where your blind spots on contamination are.
I used to work in a homebrew shop and offered up my palate to
anyone wanting to bring in a beer to taste. I don't have the
world's greatest nose/palate, but I was (and am) willing to
always give an honest opinion of someone's brew. I can't count
the number of times someone came in with an obviously infected
beer who said "Try this...it's my best one yet." It's always
hard to tell someone their baby is ugly, but in the name of
better beer constructive criticism is useful. Another guy came
in with a problem in that all of his light beers were "infected",
but the dark ones weren't. The problem? Used waaaaaay too much
iodophor (something like 1/4c in 5 gallons) to sanitize which
left a distinct iodine flavor in all of his beers. He just
couldn't taste it in the dark ones. If your blind to off tastes
as I know I am (well, less blind and more forgiving) you'll never
know. Competitions are a good independant test, but anyone who's
submitted the exact same beer to two competitions at the same
time knows that you can get low 40's or low 20's depending on the
subjectiveness of the judges.
Unless you know exactly where your blind spots are, you better
always question cleaning/sanitization techniques. I like, in
general, the Fearless instructions on cleaning. Works great if
you have extraordinarily soft water. If you have hard water, the
occasional 30 minute recirculation with hot PBW will do wonders
to remove beerstone. I clean mine this way every five batches,
as well as giving a 15 minute recirculation with boiling water
directly before and directly after use. Seems to work, but then
again....
- --
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:02:47 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Mini Kegs
Steve wrote about mini-kegs:
>Comments after 10 gallons 'kegged':
>2) I had some leakage around the tap/keg joint when the tap was
>inserted wet.
I tried inserting them dry and it just doesn't work well. I leave mine wet
with iodophor sanitizer, insert the bung and press down with the flat of my
hand while twisting. The twist seems to ease the bung into place better
than just brute force. To make sure it's sealed though, I give the bung a
few easy whacks with a rubber mallet. The bungs will last through a good 10
batches or so.
>3) Getting the carbonation levels right is tough - The first 5
>gallons was primed with 4 oz corn sugar, the second with 5 oz. SWMBO
>was unhappy both times. I'll try 6 oz next month.
I've found that headspace is critical in conjunction with the priming rate.
1" headspace and a priming rate 1/2 that of what I use to bottle works well
for your standard pales and pilsners. Adjust accordingly for other styles.
The 1" can accruately be dispensed if you mark off the level on your filler
and you use a flashlight to check during filling.
>4) Drying the kegs out is no fun - I ended up using rolled up
>papertowels and shaking. the bung lip keeps a good deal of water in
>the keg that will not drain out.
You probably have the best idea yet. The bung holes will rust over time and
I doubt that there is much you can do about it.
>5) It's really easy to drink 5 gallons of beer when it is on tap in
>the fridge.
Ahem... No comment...
>That to me is well worth the $80 set up cost and additional CO2
>cartridges. Now I just have to see how long the little kegs last...
I've had mine now for at least a dozen batches (probably around 15 or so
now) and have had very few problems. Haven't "boinked" one yet - but there
may be that lonely day in the basement... Replacements cost about $6 and
the keg is empty. But if you can find Dinkel Acker or Dab in a mini-keg
they will work also. It costs between $12 - $16 for these, but they're
already full of beer. If you take care of the kegs they will last for quite
a long time.
Carpe cerevisiae!
Glen A. Pannicke
glen at pannicke.net http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F 214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:03:43 -0400
From: "Mike Pensinger" <beermkr at bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Thermocouple Wire
Question for all,
for those of you using thermocouples in your systems... do you have to use
special wire to connect the thermocouple to your controller?
Thanks,
Mike Pensinger
beermkr at bellatlantic.net
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~beermkr
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:33:31 -0500
From: "Vernon, Mark" <VERNONMARK at phibred.com>
Subject: Re:Keg Lube
I have found that a soak in PBW takes keg lube off very easily....
Mark Vernon, MCSE, MCT
Sr. Network Engineer - LanTech
Pioneer Hi-Bred Int'l
vernonmark at phibred.com
(515)270-4188
Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
- Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900)
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:40:06 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Lager at ale temps
Scott Morgan posted:
G'day there,
Ian Forbes wrote;
Not sure you want to ferment a lager yeast at ale temps (but if you
let us know how it turns out),
If you ferment a lager at ale temps (lower ranges thereof) its is the
same as per producing Steam Beer.
<back to me>
I would disagree with this. Steam Beer is a specific style of beer that
uses a specific style of yeast that can tolerate fermentation at ale
temperatures while producing fewer esters. It finishes with some
characteristics between ales and lagers....not the same as fermenting a
lager yeast at an ale temp.
Some indications are that Bier de Garde is fermented with lager yeasts at
ale temps to produce the fruitiness associated with that style of beer.
I've had some beer fermented at a brewpub that utilized a lager yeast at
ale temperatures...it was done by a relatively inexperienced brewer in a
pub that was outfitted for much higher consumption than they had. They
made a bock this way that tasted like...well....it tasted like.....canned
fruit cocktail. To be honest, it was terrible.
In the long run the pub never survived. It's recently been re-opened to
somewhat poor reviews....I'm convinced it's destined to die. You'd think
that people would eventually get the idea that any restaurant or brewpub on
this location would not survive since none have to date (several failures
not just one), but that's another story.
Again, I mean no disrespect to Mr. Morgan, but I don't think you'll get a
steam beer just by fermenting a porter using a lager yeast at ale
temperatures.....steam beer uses a specific yeast strain....other lager
yeasts at ale temps are likely to produce significant levels of
esters....for better or worse.
nathan in madison, wi
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:19:54 -0700
From: Ken & Bennett Johnson <fearless1 at abac.com>
Subject: Gump Report/AHA National Homebrew Comp
WOW,
Quite a response from Mr. Moline. Had a spirited phone conversation with
Mr. Moline first thing this morning.
I have not been an active volunteer to the AHA for a couple of years. I
won't go into the reasons why. That wouldn't be right. I can appreciate his
defense of Gary Glass. Frankly, I don't know the man. Met him once. I do
know the general direction of the AHA for the last several years. Again, I
think many are on the same page when it comes to the AHA, and I won't
enumerate. Nice try though to deflect the goal of my message!
I want to make sure everyone who tunes in here knows that I would never
disparage Gary. He works for an organization that I am critical of, but
that is not reason to take a personal swipe. I never would. That's not what
I intended to do. I responded to what I thought was, yet again, evidence
that the AHA/AOB/IBS (whatever else) doesn't care about homebrewers
anymore. It's more than the lousy nickel to pay for a phone call. When the
AHA is at work, I am at work. When I have a question, it should be easy to
pick up ANY phone and get that question answered without fear of reprisal
from my employer. As a businessman, I can tell you, 1 watts line call is
cheap. It's not like 1 NHC submission is cheap anymore...I digress. In
short, I didn't try to embarrass any person! Let's admit something Rob, The
AHA/AOB/IBS embarrasses themselves. This organization needs no help from
me.
As far as my tag line goes; I do apologize for that. It is automatic in my
e-mail program. Usually, I remember to hack it out of my messages to the
HBD. This time I forgot. I will make a point to do it in the future. But to
insinuate that a part time, hobby based, sideline personal endeavor equates
on any level with the AHA/AOB/IBS is just beyond the pail. The AHA should
be continually easier for it's members to deal with and not harder. I don't
have a watts line because I am the only member of my club. People give me
money for a product, I give you money for the further enjoyment of a hobby,
a service. The AHA is supposed to be a hub for homebrewers to gather and
further homebrewing and the enjoyment of same. These just aren't equal in
any way Rob. That is such a profoundly poor argument. It must have been
born of rage. I regret that.
"chintzy, shameless, attack, cruel, unfounded, curiously misguided, crass"
Look again at what I said, then at how you replied, Rob. As I said on the
phone this morning, I think you went way over the line. Way over.
Ken "another hombrewer back in my place" Johnson
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:07:46 -0500
From: "ZANON, JON" <JEZANON at SEATSINC.COM>
Subject: Chilling the Wort
I I did something contrary to what I see be discussed concerning chiling
wort. This was the first time I made beer since 1980. One of the things
that occasionally frustrated me was waiting for the temp to drop far enough
so I could add the yeast. I made up a coil of copper connected it up with
poly tubing using stainless hose clamps. Instead of circulating wort
through it I circulated cold water through it while it was immersed in the
primary fermenter. I cleaned it all before during and after assy. The I
put it into a container of no rinse sanitizer "One Step" the morning of the
day I was to cook things up. After I had sterilized/sanitized the primary
and just before adding the water and wort I placed the coil into the
fermenter. After ward I circulated cold water through it and it dropped the
temp to the temp of my yeast solution in just a few minutes. I then pulled
the coil, added the yeast, sealed things up and gave it some aggitation to
oxygenate for the start up. Then when I cleaned things up I cleaned the
inside and outside of the coil and sterilized/ sanitized it and then sealed
it up and placed it in a sanitized bucket to keep it nearly ready for next
time. Does this make any sense.? Is this OK? Everything tasted right at
bottling time.
Jon Zanon
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:16:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John B. Doherty" <dohertybrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: Drying Carboys w/ a Fermentap Stand
I will concur with Mark's point that the stand from a Fermentap makes a great
carboy drier. In fact, Beer, Beer, and More Beer out of CA (NAJASC) actually
sells just the stand portion of the Fermentap without all the "questionable"
parts. I bought one and liked it so much I bought another in my next order.
If I recall they go for $7 or so, and the HUGE advantage is that they accept
inverted carboys with carboy handles attached to them. Williams and others
sell another nice plastic carboy drier, but carboy handles must be removed to
dry the carboy. Kinda defeats the purpose of the carboy handle if you have to
"handle" a wet carboy without the carboy handle attached. I strongly recommend
that people install carboy handles on their carboys, but always use a second
hand under the carboy to support it when its full of liquid.
Cheers,
-John
> From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Drying Carboys
>
> I have the stand from a Fermentap - a questionable product for yeast
> management but the stand is a great carboy drier. for those of you not
> familiar with it, picture a truncated cone of two
> rings, one larger than the other. the larger ring serves as the base while
> the smaller ring is held above it by several metal rods. you simply set the
> inverted carboy down in the smaller ring. the carboy is held safely by the
> shoulder while the opening is suspended in the air.
> now, I know most of you don't have a Fermentap lying about...
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:11:00 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphreypc.com
Subject: Balto Breweries?
Since pubcrawler.com still isn't responding, does anyone have
recommendations for brew(eries)(pubs) in or around Baltimore? Preferably
near Camden Yards (hmmm... Tampa Bay, or the Indians ...?) General
directions appreciated!
Mark in Kalamazoo
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:39:31 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: CO2 cylinders
Jason Gorman <JGORMAN at steelcase.com> writes
>I have an old CO2 cylinder that failed the hydro test. Is there any way to
>refurbish it so it will pass and can be reused? Are there any places that
>take them in on trade or is it a boat anchor?
I don't know about refurbishing, but I doubt it. However, I have
seen (and heard) some beautiful Japanese style bells made from old
cylinders. One I remember was cut off so it was perhaps four
diameters long, and in place of the top valve fitting was welded a
small trailer hitch ball to hang it from. The whole thing hangs
inside a neat oval frame on a leather thong, and a wooden mallet
hangs beside. It makes a lovely mellow, resonant gong when struck.
The folks have it hanging by their front door. Probably rung all the
time by neighborhood kids, especially at Halloween.
Jeff
- --
***Please note new address*** (old one will still work)
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:36:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Beaverplt <beaverplt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Keg lube, removing labels
I've had some great results cleaning sticky, oily
items with a product called Goo Gone that I've been
buying at my local Ace hardware store. It's best on
removing the really glued on labels off bottles.
=====
Jerry "Beaver" Pelt
That's my story and I'm sticking to it
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:04:21 +0000
From: steve-alexander at att.net
Subject: Aeration (all sides)/phenolic extraction
Several nice responses to my note on HSA, but one
troubling response reads ...
>Maybe if I was shipping beer to distant competitions
>where it could be subjected to rough handling and
>high temperatures I would be more concerned.
I tried to point out there are two aspects to oxidation
damage. That oxidation of lipids, concentrated early in
the mash will lead to the slow progressive damage like
the classic cardboard flavor as these oxidized products
slowly degrade to more negatively flavored ones over a
period months. *Also* that other forms of oxidation
damage are immediately present as coarser flavor and
darker color, for example the oxidation of simple
phenolic compounds. Dave Burley's comments (good to
have you back Dave) were directly to this point.
Also there is a continual transfer of oxidation state
between species in the beer as it ages - regardless of
what stage the initial oxidation takes place it seems to
always trend toward increasingly dull and lifeless beer
as time passes.
Many sources point to wort oxidation as the source of
coarse flavors and darker color that are immeiately
present in the beer aside from the long term decline
issue. Your beer isn't ruined - but it may be
compromised.
- --
>Everything I have read says to boil with the lid
>off to allow DMS compounds to dissipate.
You only need a 3-5% of surface area aperature for DMS
blowoff.
>Blowing CO at or nitrogen through the grist would
>likely interfere with temperature control not to
>mention the hassle factor.
I meant before mash-in. You could rid the grist air
while providing a gas layer in the mash tun.
========================================
Phenolic extraction pH etc ...
I seldom argue with Pat Babcock or Marc Sedam since Marc
is always right and Pat controls the big delete key and
performs a thankless job gratis in plaid. Still I'd
like to trim their comments a little around the edges.
There are several kinds of bonds between phenolic
compounds and other matter in the grist (protein, carbs,
other phenolics), and some of the phenolic bonds weaken
at high pH while others, perhaps most, weaken at low pH
(more acid conditions), and some are unsable at either
high or low pH !! Wood is primarily held together with
phenolic bonds and the paper pulp industry is based on
destroying these bonds under acid conditions. I've seen
rivers in New England and Nova Scotia in Spring run the
color of tea and this is due to acidic water runoff
leaching phenolics from dead plant matter. Low pH
doesn't automatically stabilize phenolic bonds.
When was writing an article on phenolics for Brewing
Techniques one of the reviewers pressed me hard for
information on pH and phenolic release. Despite a fair
bit of research all I am willing to say is that too high
or too LOW a pH is likely to cause a release of phenolic
bonds, and that the bonds are relatively stable at the
natural pH of the plant tissue (roughly 5.5-6.0).
One HB (maybe HBD origin) method suggested for the
reduction of phenolic extraction in the lauter is to
acidify the lauter water to pH 5.5-6.0. The basis for
this method seems to be the observation (many sources)
that late in the lauter the pH, the level of
(unoxidized) phenolics, protein level and several other
features of the runoff extract all change in a
correlated way. It's a long way from correlation to
cause-and-effect, and I've posted that there is no proof
that acidifying lauter water really has an impact on the
phenolic extraction. I can see several reasons why it
is likely to work - but I can also see several reasons
why it may be unrelated. As a personal note I acidify
my lauter water to pH 6.0 and cut the runoff at 3-4P.
Temps vs phenolic extraction is also an issue with
arguments on both sides and little convincing evidence.
Pat mentioned the extreme case of decoction boils of the
grist. Marc Sedam states, correctly, that long cold
lagering periods reduce the level of phenolics in beer.
What is left unstated is that unlagered decoction brews
do not produce unusually husk-flavored or coarse tannic
beers. Instead lagering normally creates smoother and
softer beers from normal tasting ones. I've actually
decocted a few ales and they were not lagered, nor did
they taste tannic, weedy or husky.
OTOH I have made beers from home malted 6-row (no
decoction) and from high percentages of malted rye
(decocted) both of these had objectionable levels of
husky phenolic flavors. The rye beer was lagered and
eventually treated as an ice bock (slow chilled till a
portion froze & was removed) and although this is
normally a highly effective way to remove phenolics, it
did not succeed in removing the objectionable flavor
from the rye beer.
I think that the weedy/husk-like flavors from grain
which are attributed to phenolics (but to me are
sometimes reminiscent of hexanal compounds), must be
dependent on the specific grain's properties. Dave
Miller and others may be correct that oveheating mash
can extract more of these flavors - but *if* so, then it
only applies to certain grists. The two-row malts I get
from major mfgrs like Durst, Weissheimer, M&F, Crisp,
Scotmalt, DWC et al seem incapable of producing this
coarse flavor even at mash temps of 100C.
If I knew how to cause the husk flavor with conventional
malts then maybe I could figure out how to avoid it.
The correlate factor seems to be the malt, the mash temp
seems unrelated, and pH hasn't been tested (by me).
fwiw,
-S
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:36:06 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: pH and tannins and decoctions
Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> of Chapel Hill, NC wrote
>2) The reason that decocted beers don't have any tannic
>astringency is due to the long lagering time. The tannins ARE
>extracted, it's that they complex with proteins and other goodies
>in the fermented beer and fall out of solution over the course of
>a 6+ week lagering period near freezing.
I think that's part of it, but I think there's something else going
on with boiling specialty grains. These are usually dark grains such
as black patent, chocolate or crystal, and these have a lot more
astringent components available than base malts, which are what
mostly make up a decoction. I think it's like boiled coffee - ugh!
Although cowboys were reputed to like it. of course, a traditional
way of finishing boiled coffee was to beat an egg in it. Maybe this
smoothed out the roughness.
Jeff
- --
***Please note new address*** (old one will still work)
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:42:47 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: aeration of wort
Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> wrote
>Jeff (?) has suggested that the beer type, esp those with roasted
>malts, are more susceptible and may be a source of controversy. Check it
>out.
Yep, that was me. I have had cardboard flavor only with two Dunkles
using nearly all Munich malt - one decocted and one not, as I recall.
Both went very fast from OK to terrible, and then would wobble back
and forth. Apparently electrons going back and forth between
molecules.
From my reading of George Fix, dark beers can have great stability if
packaged in a reduced state (that's the opposite of oxidized), but if
they are oxidized, some of those molecules (I think polyphenols) can
be a very big source of electrons just waiting to give up their
electrons to other components and produce the cardboard flavor.
For my last Dunkel I decided to try some unbittered chocolate malt as
well Munich (and some Pils). My theory was that the dark malt would
bind these electrons more tightly (how's this for cockamamie theory?)
and not give them up, or maybe even serve as an unsaturated sponge to
sop up loose electrons. For whatever reason, this Dunkel has lasted
for several months without getting cardboardy.
Jeff
- --
***Please note new address*** (old one will still work)
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:24:22 -0600
From: "Songbird Tulip" <richarddulany at hotmail.com>
Subject: de-fizz, dry-cleaning, priorities
Thanks for all the advice on de-fizzing the keg of Stout. The "shake the keg
to release the excess CO2" tactic seemed best, so I went home at lunch and
tried it. As suggested, I turned off the CO2 and bled off the gas through
the pressure-relief valve. I shook the keg and then bled off the gas that
was released. It seemed to be working great until beer foam suddenly sprayed
out of the pressure-relief valve all over my pants and kitchen. So, gentle
readers, you have been warned. I do think the "shake and release" method has
merit though. I'll try again when the foam subsides.
Also, Steve wrote about minikegs: "Because my apartment just doesn't have
room for another fridge and a real kegging system, I have been experimenting
with mini kegs..." Which left me to wonder what, exactly, does Steve think
his fridge is for? Food? With SWMBO's full consent and approval, I removed
the vegetable bins and lower shelves from our kitchen fridge. Our fridge now
holds 3 kegs + the CO2 tank with plenty of room left for wine, bottled beer,
club soda, Collins Mix, tonic, and leftover pizza (for breakfast). We even
have cheese to go with the wine! Priorities Steve, priorities!
Songbird
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:27:10 -0500
From: "elvira toews" <etoews1 at home.com>
Subject: Keg lube and *Fantastik*
Oh, no! Not Fantastik!
<rant mode on>
When I was a kid, it was good stuff. Cleaned anything off anywhere. Just
haven't had much call for it in a while.
After moving to a new house, I got some to clean the kitchen cupboards with.
Didn't realize it's now scented with one of those horrible perfumes the
consumer products marketing ^&*$(* at #&*s put in everything.
My Ms. couldn't stay in the house, it messed with her allergies so badly. I
had to eat in the basement, upstairs, outdoors, anywhere I could get away
from it. It wouldn't wash off, and took a week before the reek wasn't
overpowering.
Another formerly fine product ruined by marketing theory. You really,
really, really don't want this anywhere near your brewing equipment. Isn't
keg lube silicone grease? How about dish soap (unscented) and hot water?
That's what the MSDSs say to clean it up with.
Speaking of dish soap, avoid Palmolive. Can't get its odour out of my
Tupperware.
<rant mode off>
Sean Richens
srichens at sprint.ca
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:02:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Man From Plaid <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Decocted<>astringent
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> sez...
>2) The reason that decocted beers don't have any tannic
>astringency is due to the long lagering time. The tannins ARE
>extracted, it's that they complex with proteins and other goodies
>in the fermented beer and fall out of solution over the course of
>a 6+ week lagering period near freezing.
Hmmm. I'll simply have to take your word on that as none of my hefeweizens
have ever been lagered for more than the two weeks it takes to carbonate
them, and never at temperatures lower than cellar. Double decocted, every
one, and not a hint of astringency. Now that I know better, I'll ensure
that they are astringent. Thanks for filling me in...
:-P
- --
-
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
from my yeast lab Saturday
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:56:28 -0400
From: Don Price <dprice1 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Aging ales in Cornies at 75 F?
Due to a poor fridge space to beer volume ratio I am forced to age some
of my ales (extract/specialty grain) in Corny kegs before moving them to
the beer fridge for serving. Secondary fermentation at 75 F (after ~10
days in glass carboy primary) may be better description of what I am
doing. Most of my brews range from pale ales to stouts...no Belgians,
barleywines, or other high gravity beers...yet. Is 4-6 weeks at 75 F a
problem? 4 - 6 months? I assume darker/higher gravity beers benefit
from aging longer...and suffer less from old age.
I generally notice an improvement after having them in the fridge (on
tap) at ~40 F for a few weeks. Since a few bottled batches have aged
nicely at the same temp I figured I was on the right track without
buying a third fridge. Should I be transferring to a second Cornie to
get the beer off the secondary yeast? Any comments on the relative
merits of shorter colder aging versus longer & warmer?
Don
Suitcase City Brewery
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:04:06 -0800
From: Clifton Moore <cmoore at gi.alaska.edu>
Subject: Yeast counting and good ale from garage malt
What would cause me to break out the hemocytometer and spend hours
sampling and counting yeast volumes?
For the most part I have abandoned many of the measuring and analysis
tools available to the brewer in favor of estimations based on
experience.
But then for the past few years I have been brewing a narrow range of
ales
designed to exploit and demonstrate the properties of my own garage
malted barley.
But this time was different. Flipping the pages back on my clipboard I
noticed a few striking aspects of this latest brew. The cleaned yeast
sitting under water in a gallon jar in the refrigerator had been
harvested
three months ago. This was to be the eighth batch using the same yeast
by simply harvesting, washing, refrigeration, and pitching. I grew the
first starter of this run from slant over a year ago.
So here are the results. I would estimate that after washing, I harvest
over a cup of yeast solids. After pitching the lot into 12 gallons of
wort
I counted a pitching density of 10 million cells per cc. of which 46%
were non viable by methylene blue analysis. So the true live cell pitch
rate was about 6 M cells / cc.
After three days of open ferment in my boiling keg, I transferred to a
cornelius for secondary. At this point all the yeast are viable,
(presumably the dead ones either revived or settled to the bottom
of the kettle), and the density is a peak expected 73.5 M cells / cc.
I will allow the ferment to finish in these fermenting cornelius and
will then force transfer the beer to finishing / serving cornelius, and
will harvest all the yeast.
This yeast has behaved very well for me. It is CL20 from BrewTek
named American Micro II.
My hope is to stimulate some heroic tales of good yeast.
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