HOMEBREW Digest #3614 Mon 23 April 2001

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  Re: Jethro Apologizes (Nob Odie)
  Re: ("pksmith_morin1")
  viscosity ("elvira toews")
  Re: ("plotek")
  Re: when to rack (Steven)
  Late Addition of Top Off Water? (mkboyer)
  Muddie's search ("pksmith_morin1")
  Spam ("John F. Adsit")
  Mash too long? (2brewers4u)
  Re: Solid State Relay Questions (Ken Schwartz)
  Gravity Correction/Taste of EtOH?Bottled O2 ("A. J.")
  Spruce Beer ("John Gubbins")
  Converting amber DME to all grain (Hop_Head)
  O2 gas ("Stephen R Cavan")
  How pure is my oxygen? (Pat Babcock)
  Zowie! From mild disappointment, a summer brew is born... (Pat Babcock)
  Re: Hops (Steven)
  Fluid Dynamics (Home Brewer)
  Walking On The Dark Side ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  RE: fermentation temperatures too low? ("Derek Shepard  at  verizon")
  Home Brew Clubs... ("Taliesin2")
  re: iodine test for yeast glycogen levels? Any inputs? ("Stephen Alexander")
  Solid Sate Relay Answer/Lesson ("Mike Pensinger")
  RE: sour beer, souring weiss beer, peroxide. ("Steven Parfitt")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 2001 07:06:52 -0000 From: Nob Odie <noone at nuther-planet.net> Subject: Re: Jethro Apologizes > Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:11:27 -0500 > From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net> > Subject: Jethro Apologizes > > Jethro Apologizes What insipid bull Rob. Can't you apologize to someone without using your alter- ego Jethro. If we wanted an apology from a muppet, we would have taken Miss Piggy to task. Go stand in the corner. Now! Paul Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 07:29:25 -0500 From: "pksmith_morin1" <pksmith_morin1 at msn.com> Subject: Re: "Muddie" asks for credible cites on my posts re: haze. Most of the material was drawn from Malting & Brewing Science, and the Journal of the American Society of Brewing Chemists (these articles are indexed/abstracted and available online - look up the ASBC web site..): If you are curious about the veracity of any of the conclusions, test them! Do a forced haze induction at home by storing under hot/cold cycling , and introducing air early on... The cites: C.W. Bamforth, "Beer Haze," J. Am. Soc. Brew. Chem., 57(3), pp 82, et seq; J.S. Hough, D.E. Briggs, et al, Malting and Brewing Science, Volume 2, pp. 816, 822, 823, 830; Karl J. Siebert and P.Y. Lynn, "Effect of Protein-Polyphenol Ratio on the Size of Haze Particles," J. Am. Soc. Brew. Chem., 58(3), pp 24-31; Product Information, "PVPP stabilization of beer in the recycling process (STR-Process), " Schenk Filtersysteme DGBH, pg. 3; Karl J. Siebert and Penelope Lynn, "Comparison of Polyphenol Interactions with [PVPP] and [HA] Protein, " J. Am. Soc. Brew. Chem., 56 (1), pp 25-26; Wolfgang Kunze, Technology Malting and Brewing, pp. 196-198, 233-250, 403-405. Hope this helps. The avoidance of air is crucial for everything, not merely haze formation. Like diacetyl (in the right beer, and at the right concentration), I do not find the formation of haze all that offensive in and of itself -- but it does point to possible faults lying elsewhere (e.g., improper cellar technique or contamination in the case of diacetyl, or oxidation in the case of haze). With time, all beer will haze, unless it is completely devoid of the precursor components. Paul Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:17:23 -0500 From: "elvira toews" <etoews1 at home.com> Subject: viscosity Patrick: "...or simply amongst the molecules in the liquid (viscosity), " is the correct answer. Assume the first layer of molecules by the tubing wall has a velocity of zero (not due to any particular adhesion, just their own viscosity). At low flow rates, you get a fairly simple parabolic gradient of velocity from the wall to the centre of the tube as the fluid molecules slide past each other. Resistance to this sliding is viscosity. When the flow rate increases, the bulk of the fluid in the middle of the tube becomes turbulent, and the net velocity is fairly constant across the tube cross-section except by the wall, where a thin boundary layer still follows the parabolic gradient. This boundary layer is what you have to calculate for heat transfer in chillers, for diffusion rates in sparging, etc. The equations aren't that difficult (if you use SI units) but making sure you found the right one for your exact situation can take a bit of work. One of these days I'll get around to calculating the pressure drop in beer lines. The psi-per-foot numbers that get quoted assume a particular flow rate as given. The narrower the tubing, the larger the percentage of the area that is in the boundary layer, where the resistance to flow takes place. That's about as thorough as it gets without the equations. There's some educational websites out there that do a decent job, or at least include Javascript calculators. A bit of searching on "fluid mechanics" should turn them up. Sean srichens at sprint.ca Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:29:58 +1000 From: "plotek" <plotek at optushome.com.au> Subject: Re: Dear Posters, Paul was under the impression that i was questioning his sources and his explanation of the clouding phenomenom. I regret he felt that way. I have apologised to him for any misinterpretation on his behalf. I was actually asking for fundamental references that he may be familiar with. I recieved direction to resources which I have encountered before. Im butting my head against this wall of technology and application descriptions. Im not interested in those. You guys can continue to quote journals and texts which provide description but not hard chemistry or physics. I am interested in the fundamental science of of what goes on in the solutions of the beer at mashing fermentation and standing I am intested in structure, chemical yields theromdynamics. Im not really interested in short two paragraph descriptions that encompass a whole range of chemistries. For those scientists in the field I ask where is this stuff and where do I start? I would dearly like to read the resources for the biochemists and chemists (organic and inorganic) in institutions. Now ive tried to put that as politely as possible. I have no intention of questioning your standings to those who are offended by anything i have stated. If you feel slighted in any way please accept my apology ahead of time. Yo! Muddie Not "Muddie" Muddie is just as effective as John Smith, Mr Smith Fr J. Smith or Dr Smith- If you must ask I was Christened XXX XX XX XXXX When I stopped believing in anything, adopting a "christian name" seemed pointless. Titles are a form of protection and are best suited to office doors- The full name in all its glory is - MuDgUts - It suits a skeptic! Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:01:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven <stevensl at mindspring.net> Subject: Re: when to rack I feel like putting my 2cents worth in here and i would encourage anyone to reply if i'm totally wrong. I'm pretty new to homebrewing, just 5 batches so far. I worried about when to rack, when to wait and the advice from local homebrewers was its a hobby, rack when you have the time. So, since I want to have a life I dedicate part of a day on the weekends to brewing. This dictates when I do the boil, when i rack to secondary, when I bottle. So far i've had no problems that I can tell, and in the end thats whats important to me, for now. Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl at mindspring.net ::: 403forbidden.net "You want the government to handle your medical care? You want the government to take care of your retirement? Go stand in line at a post office." -- Neil Boortz Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:01:35 -0500 From: mkboyer at ev1.net Subject: Late Addition of Top Off Water? We made an Irish Red a few weeks ago, and perhaps (OK, definitely) enjoyed a bit too much of a previous batch of cider as we made it. We totally forgot to add top off water to the fermentor. I realized this after racking to secondary. Looks like it's about a gallon low. OG and FG are both higher, but linearally so. We're now ready to keg the beer, but I'm wondering if I should add top off water before we do it. Of course I'd boil/cool it first, but is it a good idea to top off at this point? Kevin Boyer Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:47:22 -0500 From: "pksmith_morin1" <pksmith_morin1 at msn.com> Subject: Muddie's search If I have misinterpreted Muddie's request (and I apparently have), I lay off and invite the "hard" scientists in the community to step forward. I have to admit, I am still a bit befuddled as to what Muddie is actually looking for...perhaps others are not and can provide the references he is looking for. Paul Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:29:09 -0600 From: "John F. Adsit" <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us> Subject: Spam I, too, got the spam, but I disagree about a solution. Most tech people I know advise against writing back to the spammer AT ALL. Even if they give a REMOVE address, in many (perhaps most) cases, all you have accomplished is provide a confirmed email address to the spammer for further use. Or are people under the impression that they have ethics? John Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:48:28 -0500 From: 2brewers4u at home.com Subject: Mash too long? Help..... The other night, during a RIMS brew, my mash got stuck, then the phone rings, and some lady stopped by to sell a security system. Anyway, my attention was diverted. The mash set for 2:47 at 122 degrees. I finished up normally (154 degrees for 60 minutes, step to 174 degrees, then sparged as normal. Will the long stay at 122 degrees for 2 hours and 47 minutes hurt? 2brewers4u Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:25:16 -0600 From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com> Subject: Re: Solid State Relay Questions Mike asked about a problem with a 240V SSR operating at 245. The 240VAC rating is probably very conservative so I doubt the extra 5V is causing the problem (not the root cause anyway). I'd be more likely to blame a faulty SSR input drive (your controller is turning the SSR input LED "on" all the time). If you're absolutely sure the input is not being activated (try completely disconnecting it), you have a faulty SSR. - -- ***** Ken Schwartz El Paso, TX Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:41:39 +0000 From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Gravity Correction/Taste of EtOH?Bottled O2 Most of the specific gravity vs temperature corrections seem to be based on the specific gravity variations of water with temperature which is justified on the basis that wort is a weak solution. Wort of modest (12P) gravity changes density with temperature slightly differently than water and, as this is caused by the presence of dissolved sugar, we must assume the variation depends upon how much. Practically, the variation is doubtless less than most could measure using the hydrometers that most homebrewers use so the water only correction is good enough. Alcohols tend to taste sweet and ethanol is, in my opionion, no different. The slightly sweet flavor is secondary to the physical sensation of warmth that it contributes as it goes down. The days of bottled medical oxygen are coming to an end. People who need medical oxygen these days are likely to rent a molecular sieve device which "strains" the oxygen out of the air delivering something like 96 - 98% pure O2. Another gadget for us all to lust after. A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:35:54 -0600 From: "John Gubbins" <n0vse at idcomm.com> Subject: Spruce Beer Howdy Folks, I have been making spruce beers for several years now. Here are a few tricks I've learned over the years. I pick my spruce on the West Slope of the Colorado Rockies in early June. You want sprigs that are 2 or 3 inches long and the stem supple and not woody. I use 4 or 5 of these for a 5 gallon batch. I have boiled them in the wort. This is not good as it extracts a bitter flavor that is unpleasant. The best way to do it is in a separate pot, boil the sprigs in a pint of water. Filter the spruce out of the tea and add the tea in the last 5 minutes of the wort boil. The aroma is wonderful. Spruce beer seems to be at its best when it is fresh. After several months, it seems to get bitter. It is very good when it is good. Do not use too much spruce! John Gubbins Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 14:19:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Hop_Head at webtv.net Subject: Converting amber DME to all grain I am converting some of my partial mash recipes to all grain. In one of them I used amber DME. What type of grain and in what quantity would I use per pound of DME? Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 14:26:07 -0600 From: "Stephen R Cavan" <scavan at sprint.ca> Subject: O2 gas Perhaps someone with a closer connection to the gas industry will answer the questions which have appeared lately about the purity of O2 gas supplies, i.e., is welding grade as good as&nbsp;medical grade? I bounced this question off a friend who actually works at a liquid gas company, a friend who has access to, and knowledge of, both grades of gas. He is also a brewer who uses gas for Aeration. He claimed the welding grade was not at all safe to use for food production. In fact he became very concerned that I would even think of using this low grade gas in beer. He said that the welding grade can be contaminated with nasty stuff such as acetylene, and even at a maximum contamination of 2%, you do not want this in your beer. Cheers, Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:36:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: How pure is my oxygen? Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... Steve writes of a friend who works in a liquid gas company: > He said that the welding grade can be contaminated with nasty stuff > such as acetylene Wouldn't that make the cylinder a bomb? I mean, if you can't have simple oil in the cylinder, acetylene is far more combustible. As I understand it, the "contaminants" are more along the lines of noble (inert) gasses - but what do I know? Any one out there with the proper credentials care to speak up? (As and aside, just because someone works in an industry doesn't make them an expert. For instance, you could fill VOLUMES with what I don't know about automobiles, and I'm an engineer for an automaker...) - -- - See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock "The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged from my yeast lab Saturday Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:46:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: Zowie! From mild disappointment, a summer brew is born... Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager.... I have to admit it, folks. I let my guard down. I had a VERY OLD pale ale which had developed a brett. infection. I bottled this off, "sanitized" the keg, and put my latest koelsch in it. Oddly, the koelsch never cleared! Tasted OK, but never would clear. Now, I detect a brett. infection in that, too (RB: I've finally put a finger on your "house flavor". Call me...) Today, sipping on a pint, a thought occurred - what if I doctored it? Through doctoring, I turned a horrid hefeweizen into a very respectable plambic (better living through chemistry...). What could I do to make this beast "nicer"? After a brief thrashing about, I settled on a few cracked coriander seeds and some zest from a valencia orange and WoW! I hAvE fOuNd My SuMmEr BrEw!!!I would almost intentionally infect a beer for this effect. wOw! (Mike O: you GOTTA stop by and try this. Much like your Tang Wit...) - -- - See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock "The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged from my yeast lab Saturday Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:01:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven <stevensl at mindspring.net> Subject: Re: Hops Thanks to all those who replied to my hops post. Found some great resources. Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl at mindspring.net ::: 403forbidden.net "You want the government to handle your medical care? You want the government to take care of your retirement? Go stand in line at a post office." -- Neil Boortz Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:30:21 -0400 From: Home Brewer <howe at execulink.com> Subject: Fluid Dynamics Patrick: You Wrote: howdy folks, if anyone cares to write it down, i would appreciate a 'real' (rather than my lame one) explanation for the resistance of any fluid to movement through a tube. if it isn't interactions with the tubing or simply amongst the molecules in the liquid (viscosity), then what produces the resistance to flow? - ------------- I think what you are looking for will be found by researching a couple of physicists: Jean Louis Poiseuille explains how the steady flow of a fluid is influenced by it's viscosity and the pressure differences found in a tube, and Daniel Bernoulli explains how the velocity of a fluid changes with the width/diameter of the channel it is flowing through. Simply put, the rate of flow of a fluid through a tube is directly related to the radius of the tube (to the fourth power) and the pressure change along the length of the tube, and inversely related to viscosity and the tube's length. Mathematically: Q = (P2 - P1)(pi)(r^4)/8*l*n Where: Q = Flow P = Pressure r = radius of tube l = length of tube n = viscosity So what happens is, as the radius of a tube becomes larger the radius of the tube plays a continuing larger role. As the radius of a tube decreases, relative pressures become the dominant factor. Obviously, the science behind all this runs into pages, but hopefully this will give you an idea of the factors involved and the relationship between them. Cheers, Tim Howe (B.Sc, Physics) London, Ont Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:41:22 +1000 From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au> Subject: Walking On The Dark Side Jim Bermingham comments on the colour of my nose : >Has Phil gone over to the "Dark Side"? At least there >seems to be something >dark on his nose. Now Jim this is very unfair. I can be nice to Steve from time to time. I've even promised to send him over a bottle of my brew. As for going over to the dark side, well I have been wandering back and forth for years. Same goes with my cross dressing, I just can't make up my mind what side I am on. Now before I lose my brownie points (or is that nose?) with Steve, I had better get on with beer matters. Yesterday I kegged my Yates/Pivo pilsner Mark2. I tried a sample and was so overcome with delirious ecstasy I fell backwards on the drive and lay there for several hours in the rain (maybe it was a bigger sample than I had intended). Why is it so delightful? Well for one thing the saaz flowers came from New Zealand instead of Czechoslovakia. Now of course there is nothing wrong with Czech hops, we all know that. But the Czech pellets Doc Pivo and I used on Mark 1, I suspect were not as fresh as they should have been. With this version I added one kilo of Bairds vienna malt. Thanks to Wes Smith here in Australia we are now getting access to some really great malts. I split the ferment between Ayinger and Budvar yeasts, the difference between the two I am yet to report on. Wes Smith also is making available to us hop flower plugs from Europe. I am yet to put these into action. But I have to say this is a serious beer. The freshness and hop character jump out and smack you fair in the face (maybe this explains my "knocked out state" lying on the drive. I am convinced that top ingredients make all the difference (assuming you have a handle on the process). I am convinced that simply nothing compares to the brilliant beer one produces at home. I am convinced the world can be a beautiful place. To that end I leaned over the back fence and shook hands with my Croatian neighbour - even asked him over for a homebrew (we have been in deep dispute for over a year). The fact that he told me to go and get f***ed is irrelevant. It was a beautiful moment. This walking on the dark side is indeed a new experience. I've been nice to Steve, I've been nice to my neighbour. If I drink enough of this pilsner Mark 2, I might even see my way to being nice to Graham Sanders!! Cheers Phil Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 06:45:37 -0400 From: "Derek Shepard at verizon" <derek.shepard at verizon.net> Subject: RE: fermentation temperatures too low? I use a "large" plastic tub from Walmart and a fish tank heater. I simply set the carboy in the tub filled with water. My basement gets very chilly in winter and I have no problem maintaining Ale temperatures dead on. I don't remember the wattage, but it is relatively low and doesn't come on much. Also, a tip I learned from someone who has fish, I use a small air pump and stone to keep the water moving so there is no stratification of the warm water on top and cool on the bottom. This also keeps the water clear (doesn't get stagnant). Total investment less than $20. I haven't noticed any change in my electric bill and have been doing this for the last 3 years (only in winter). Derek Shepard Washington, New Jersey >also, how can i keep the temp up durin the winter w/o the use of heaters >which draw a lot of electricity? > >- sincerely, >- michael capitain Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:02:30 -0400 From: "Taliesin2" <shane.saylor at verizon.net> Subject: Home Brew Clubs... What is everybody's opinion of brew clubs? And what can one expect from the club? Also, do the clubs offer lessons in Homebrewing? And if they do, do you have to be a member to take them? Thanks... - -- "Those who want to hear the voice of pagan gods in wind or thunder, who want to see the fairies dance in the moonlight, who can believe that faith can move mountains, can follow the thread on the pages of this book. It is a fragile thread; it cannot bear the weight of facts and dates" -Kate Seredy, "The White Stag" ICQ: 9815080 Operator Taliesin_2 of #SacredNemeton on IRC PaganPaths Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:02:46 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: iodine test for yeast glycogen levels? Any inputs? Well you've seen some inputs but one confused poster writes: >I came up with this test in the late 1980s when I was writing the first edition >of [...] Yeah - and Al Gore invented the internet. The earliest reference to using iodine as a simple visual test for glycogen that I am aware of appears in "Brewers' Guardian", page 43, February 1972, by C.Rainbow - a well known brewing yeast researcher. This method is referenced in a Cambridge prize lecture by David E.Quain published in JIB v95, pp315-323, Sept-Oct 1988 - a journal and author (tho' not the specific article) which the poster references in his books. This leaves a very poor impression of the poster in my mind and I hope he'll explain exactly what he meant by "I came up with this test". Iodine will stain glycogen - but that's not the same as viability as has been repeatedly *implied*. You can test for glycogen but understand that there is very good evidence that it's level does NOT correlate directly with viability. Glycogen levels in viable yeast will vary from about 8% to 60% of dry yeast mass (JIB, v87, pp108-111, 1981- an article by Quain et al which the poster references). Glycogen/stain level probably shows something, related to viability when comparing yeasts in similar growth phases but it must be imperfect because of the rapid fluctuations in level. Glycogen is also apparently required to initiate sterol/UFA synthesis - so low levels in pitched yeast portent a poor fermentation. Glycogen level is a good thing to measure/understand but it's not viability. The long used test for brewing ability is methylene blue , which has limitations. Methylene violet stain has recently been suggested as an improvement. The advantages of this over methylene blue are discussed in J.ASBC 57(1):18-23, 1999 by Smart et al. which is available at the ASBC website. This paper notes some of the limitations of Methylene blue, and also demonstrates methods of testing the relationship of the stain level with other measures of viability. You can get the base chemical needed, methylene violet or blue, to make up a lifetime supply (several liters) from a chem vendor for about $7. You can also get 120ml bottles of prepared methylene blue stain for <$10 so the price of a proper viability stain is negligible. For these stains *current* cell metabolism, not just a static assay of carbs effects the color difference. I've nothing against expedience and convenience of a bottle of iodine, but understand what it tests then use it accordingly. It may be a great choice to 'measure' glycogen. But for viability a microscope and $10 worth of stain are needed. >However, before the "theologians" on this forum mount their pulpits And here I thought that "theologians" were people who placed blind faith over reason. For example folks who state glycogen assays are equivalent to viability just because they said so. We could go into misleading published statements for the basis of iodine/carbohydrate coloration - but ... enough. You *are* the weakest link Doctor - goodbye, -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 17:25:04 -0400 From: "Mike Pensinger" <beermkr at bellatlantic.net> Subject: Solid Sate Relay Answer/Lesson Well my HLT is sitting at a very even 165 degrees right now. Thank you very much to all the people that tried to help. The answer made me want to kick myself in the butt! Seems that when you read voltage on a SSR that does not have a load it will look like it is conducting. As soon as you put a load on it it operates perfectly. End of lesson. Now all I have to do is figure out why my pump quit working and get another PID controller and i will be in business! Mike Pensinger beermkr at bellatlantic.net http://members.bellatlantic.net/~beermkr Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 22:37:07 -0400 From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: sour beer, souring weiss beer, peroxide. Well I tried one of the test strips, but mine only goes to 4.5 so I need to get some test strips that go lower. Do I need to get rid of carbonation to eliminate it's acid from throwing off the readings? I did try one of the bottles of the same beer, and they aren't sour. As far as a source for Lacto-Bacilis.... Could one just use a teaspoon of yogurt? Add it to a batch of malt and water that had been boiled to build up a batch of yeast? Let this ferment for a couple of days and use it? Steven Return to table of contents
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