HOMEBREW Digest #3668 Mon 25 June 2001

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  Re: counter pressure filling (Pat Babcock)
  Re: Raising pH with slaked lime- problems ("phil sides jr")
  Re: Rootbeer ("phil sides jr")
  wort oxidation & fermentation geometry (Marcie5295)
  Homebrew Club (Cas Koralewski)
  M.A.D.D. in Belgium (Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger)
  RE: CP bottling ("Steve")
  re: counterpressure filling ("The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty")
  oats in alts? (Marc Sedam)
  Head retention in keg (mark dickeson)
  Ultra-small lager batch / freezing wort questions ("Bissell, Todd S")
  Rootbeer ("Jack Schmidling")
  Re: Raising pH with slaked lime- problems ("A.J. deLange")
  H2O2 Ingestion and HSO (Tombrau)
  Water+ ("Stephen Alexander")
  H2O2/Cleaning Carboys/... ("Stephen Alexander")
  Predicting efficiency when steeping grains (Greg Spurrier)
  death of H:W .... now it's W:H per Kunze ("Stephen Alexander")

* * 2001 AHA NHC - 2001: A Beer Odyssey, Los Angeles, CA * June 20th-23rd See http://www.beerodyssey.com for more * information. Wear an HBD ID Badge to wear to the gig! * http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping * * Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! * Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to the digest as we canoot reach you. We will not correct your address for the automation - that's your job. The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit. More information is available by sending the word "info" to req at hbd.org. JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:32:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: Re: counter pressure filling Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com> writes of Jeff Renner's CPF advice... > I must say that this advice of putting the bottles and filler in the freezer > is possibly the worst c-p filling tip that I have ever heard. > Putting your (hopefully) clean sanitzed bottles and filler into a freezer is > hrowing out a invite for all of the 'fine' micro flora that infest freezers. > This practice will likely lead to much more signifcant problems than > foamy beer. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, friend. A short stretch of the imagination directs one to put the CPF in some sort of protective device, such as a large zip-loc bag, to protect its sanitary state. The bottles? They are easily protected by stretching a sheet of plastic wrap over the top of the lot of them (if your freezer uses forced air cooling, use a piece of foil over the mouth of each bottle). > My advice is, first get the beer colder, if you going to put something into > the freezer it should be the beer (just don't freeze it) the closer that you > get the beer to its freezing point the better it will retain the CO2 in > solution, giving you more time to get the bottles crowned. Very sound advice. > Second, put a > guage on the gas/foam bleed off valve if your filler. This will allow you > to monitor the pressure within the bottle so that you know when you have > reached equilbrium and it is safe to disengage to filler from the bottle. Here we part company again. A gauge is a nice thought, but wholly unncecessary and a cleaning challenge afterward. And any beasties growing in the gauge's pressure port have a much better chance of contaminating a bottle of beer than the likelihood of an infective climbing a bottle in your freezer to slip under the protective cover of foil or plastic wrap - all you have to do is set the filler down on its side or tip it some time during the the fill process to get a dribble of contaminated beer at the business end of the filler. Either occurence happens all the time with home brewers CPFs. Nope. No gauge for me. Once you close the bleed valve, a short delay before shutting the beer valve is usually adequate for you to reach equillibrium. > Third, have someone help you with the crowning. Two people can bottle > and crown more effecting than one. Ditto that! The Lovely Kim enjoys capping bottles, and is usually my bottling assistant :^) - -- - See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock "The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged from my yeast lab Saturday Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 03:01:13 -0400 From: "phil sides jr" <phil at yankeebrew.com> Subject: Re: Raising pH with slaked lime- problems Troy <thager at jps.net> asks about his water: >I seem to have the opposite problem that many brewers face in that my >water's pH is too low! It comes out of the tap at about 4.8 and my 100% pale >mashes run at about 5.0 (adjusted for temperature - cooled sample is at I'm curious Troy... What part of the world are you in and what do you know about your water source? Seems to me that water that acidic might be pretty rough on the municipal plumbing. Phil Sides Concord, NH Das Leben ist zu kurz, schreckliches Bier zu trinken Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 03:08:50 -0400 From: "phil sides jr" <phil at yankeebrew.com> Subject: Re: Rootbeer "Sky Systems" <rhenson at skysystems.com> asks: >Does anyone have a good root beer recipe, or know where to find resources on it? I have a book called "Homemade Root Beer Soda & Pop" by Stephen Cresswell which has been quite useful for me (YMMV). It is published by Storey Books and I assume it would be reasonably easy to find. The biggest challenge I have encountered is finding good, fresh ingredients (roots). Phil Sides Concord, NH Das Leben ist zu kurz, schreckliches Bier zu trinken Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 03:34:03 EDT From: Marcie5295 at aol.com Subject: wort oxidation & fermentation geometry The odiferous soluble reaction of carbon molecules increases inertly with a pro-negative ionic sulfurication inducement during the pre-mating ritualistic acidification of c-chromosone genes for most ale yeast strains, assuming that the starting gravity of the wort is approximately equal to the reduction of psuedo-synchranized protein collaboration immediately prior to the enzyme molestation regime while lautering, as long as the pH of the brewer's saliva doesn't exceed the previous beta-glucanese embryonic fission ratio.:) My solution is that for worts with an SG of 55 or less, I shake the carboy. Above that, I inject pure oxygen. I adjust the pitching rate according to the style I am making -- a lower final gravity quite often has nothing to do with making a better beer. Of much more importance is the geometry of your beer glass. My collection of glasses takes up half the space in my den. The correct choice for the beer you are drinking makes all the difference in the flavor, aroma, and your enjoyment. For example, I am now enjoying an Alt that was just OK in a Bitburger pilsner glass, less than pleasing in an English pint glass, but is absolute Heaven in a Gordon Biersch Maibock glass. If I could just brew something that was perfectly suited for those plastic shotglasses they use in the competitions...... A Kasch, Huntington Beach, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:02:27 -0400 From: Cas Koralewski <caskor at buckeye-express.com> Subject: Homebrew Club Does anyone out there know of an active club in the Toledo, Ohio area? Or, is there anyone interested in starting a club? If not, then where might I find a listing of "cyber-clubs"? I certainly get a lot of information from HBD (aside from the fluff and arguments, which I also enjoy) but would really enjoy brewing with others & sharing my limited knowledge (not being the scientific type) as well as picking up new ideas. Thanks, Cas Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:17:02 -0400 From: Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger <katerob at erols.com> Subject: M.A.D.D. in Belgium I think that group is only against *driving* drunk, and since the Belgian pilot program is working with children between 3 and 15 (and I think that in European Union countries, you may have to older than that to get a license to drive), they'd have no problem with it. ;-) Seriously, though: anything that encourages a healthy enjoyment/relationship with/use of beer and wine (who knows, the program cold spread to France!), I think is a far sight better than our often myopic and prohibitive attempts to curb the "evils of drink" -- all those efforts ought to begin at a young age, and really can't be successfully legislated against by the time one reaches his teens. Flame away. It's only electrons. - --Rob Hanson the Closet Brewery 'post tenebras lux' Washington, DC - ----------------------- "Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and dreams. If I didn't drink this beer, they might be out of work and their dreams would be shattered. Then I say to myself, "It is better that I drink this beer and let their dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver." - --Unattributed Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:22:01 -0400 From: "Steve" <stjones1 at chartertn.net> Subject: RE: CP bottling In regards to CP bottling, I'm not sure what the fuss is all about. I brew 10 gallon batches & force carbonate in kegs. I'll CP bottle 1 keg and serve from the other until I need the keg, then bottle the rest. Sometimes it is very little, other times up to 3 gallons. I don't have to chill my bottles or my filler. As long as the keg is around 40F or lower, and I use about 20lbs pressure to bottle, I don't have a lot of foaming problem. When relieving the pressure before removing the bottle, I do get a little foam that overflows, but this just allows me to 'cap on foam'. The overflow from a 5 gallon keg after bottling is about a pint, which is quickly consumed. I built a 'bottling station' that includes a bench capper. This allows for one hand operation and nearly continuous filling, sort of assembly line style. Rather than go into all the details, if you're interested you can go to http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew/gadgets/cpfiller.htm and check it out. Steve Jones State of Franklin Homebrewers Johnson City, TN http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:46:20 -0500 From: "The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty" <mikey at swampgas.com> Subject: re: counterpressure filling "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com> wrote: >I must say that this advice of putting the bottles and filler >in the freezer is possibly the worst c-p filling >tip that I have ever heard. Putting your (hopefully) clean >sanitzed bottles and filler into a freezer is throwing out a >invite for all of the 'fine' micro flora that infest freezers. >This practice will likely lead >to much more signifcant problems than foamy beer. On the contrary, this will in fact help a great deal with foaming. If infection is a concern then simply cover the bottle tops with foil or ( for the paranoid only ) plastic wrap and rubber bands. And remember -- fermentor geometry is completely irrevelant to the production of good beer. Fermentor COLOR, on the other hand, is critical. - -- tafKaks ************************************** Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:56:01 -0400 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: oats in alts? I'm planning to make a gigantic batch of alt to be ready on August 11...25 gallons to be exact. Other than testing my ability to approach small commercial scale brewing (boiling 30 gallons of wort should be a treat), I have some malted oats I'd like to use up. I'm basically sticking with Al K's alt recipe: 32 lbs DeWolf-Cosyns Munich malt 5 lbs Melanadoin malt 3 lbs malted oats 1oz Magnum [13.2%] (60 mins) 7oz Ultra [3.1%] (60 mins) 2oz Ultra [3.1%] (20 mins) Mash in at 122 for 10 mins. Raise to 150F for 60 mins. Mash out at 170F. ProMash lists the OG at 1.049, at my normal 81% efficiency. Ferment with WhiteLabs Dusseldorf Alt yeast at 66F. Anyone see anything missing. How 'bout them oats? - -- Marc Sedam Chapel Hill, NC Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:34:44 +0930 (CST) From: mark dickeson <markd at sa.apana.org.au> Subject: Head retention in keg I seem to be having a few troubles with my keg setup. After fermentation I pour it into the keg and pressurize it to 200 kPa (30 psi), then leave it 4-5 days. After this, I drop the pressure to 50-70 kPa (8-10 psi) ready for serving. My problem is that initially the beer pours very frothy although the head quickly diminishes and the beer itself isn't very gassy. As I use more of the keg, the frothing eventually ceases but the problem with lack of carbonation is still there. I have bottled some beer from the same batch and there is no problem so I am assuming the keg setup is my problem. Do you think I need to leave it longer, or use a higher pressure, or is there some other problem. Thanks for any thoughts. Cheers. - -- mark (this insert has a protective coating) Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggie" until you can find a rock. -- Wynn Catlin Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:29:46 -0700 From: "Bissell, Todd S" <tbissell at spawar.navy.mil> Subject: Ultra-small lager batch / freezing wort questions Hi all: I want to experiment with lagers (especially during this time of the year, when they go down the smoothest!), but don't have the space for an extra refrigerator. However, I always have a fair amount of room in my normal, everyday use `fridge for 1 or 2 1-gallon glass fermenters (that once held cheap commercial wine). (It's a typical bachelor `fridge: nothing but beer, bread, and some condiments...! :-) My plan is as such: boil up a fairly standard lager from 5 lbs of Briess Brewers Gold DME (8L), and 1 lb of rice syrup solids, and a typical balance of Saaz and Hallertaur hops.... nothing award winning, obviously, but then again, not many "lawnmower beers" are, IMHO. Anyway, a full 5-gallon batch of wort. Then, I plan on chilling and racking a gallon into each of my one-gallon glass fermenters, pitching my yeast, and letting them ferment at standard lager temps: 50 degrees for the primary, in my fermenter chiller that I purchased from The Gadget Store at http://www.gadgetstore.bigstep.com , and the secondary and the cold-lagering in my `fridge, at the appropriate temps. The remaining wort I want to freeze for later use (for either more lawnmower beer, or yeast starter). Given the above information, do you see any significant flaws with this plan of action, and if so, what would you do to makes things better/more efficient? Do you foresee any significant drawbacks to freezing of the wort....? "Why not just scale down your recipe from a 5-gallon batch to a 1-gallon batch", you ask...? If you have ever tried measuring out 0.15 oz's of hop pellets on a typical household scale, you'll know what I'm talking about...! Any insights, positive and negative, would be really appreciated....! Cheers! Todd Bissell Imperial Beach, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 19:29:23 -0500 From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net> Subject: Rootbeer From: "Sky Systems" <rhenson at skysystems.com> >I'll take the recent discussions on Ginger Ale and force carbonating soda to post a question that has been on my mind for some time now.... Does anyone have a good root beer recipe, or know where to find resources on it?... It is my understanding that the key ingredient (sassafrass) is highly toxic unless processed in some special way. This sort of precludes making root beer from scratch. Ginger ale presents no such problems and the options are many. > Is it safe to bottle in my beer bottles? I missed the discussion on ginger ale but I have worked out a method for both that makes it child's play. Just so happens I got the urge for rootbeer last week and just made my first batch in quite a few years. The easiest way to bottle soft drinks is to use liter pop bottles. When thay get hard, they are carbonated and you put them in the fridge. If you only drink half, leave it out over night and it will re-carbonate itself. There are some recipes on my web page and info on my video that splains it all. BTW, home made root beer MUST be made with bread yeast. That really cool flavor is the only thing that separates it from commercial stuff. js ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm Home Page:Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Sausage, Videos http://user.mc.net/arf Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 06:48:21 +0100 From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Raising pH with slaked lime- problems WRT Troy's problems with lime: Reactions in the mash tun are often not what is expected because thorough mixing is not acheived, because the malt material is not fully solubilized etc. I think the approach to take here is to correct the water. It shouldn't take much lime water to balance the pH of the liquor because there just isn't that much carbonate in it if my calculation was correct but my calculation is based on the assumption that there are no other ions in appreciable concentration. It would be very instructive to have a more complete water report or at least an actual measurement of alkalinity. You can buy a simple test kit to measure this (www.hach.com is one source). The question becomes "Why is the pH so low?" and I think that question should be taken up with the supplier. You might want to try aerating the water vigorously i.e. pouring it back and forth between a couple of buckets from a good height. This will release dissolved carbon dioxide. If releasing the CO2 doesn't lower the pH then there is something else in the water besides the carbo system causing the low pH and I'd want to know what that is before I brewed with the water or drank it. pH 4.8 is below what the UN or US standards for drinking water allow. If it is well water and releasing the CO2 gets the pH closer to 7 then there is no problem. If there is mine runoff or something like that then there is. I'd try aeration to get CO2 out. If this doesn't work then there is some other system and that should be investigated but you might nevertheless try using the lime water to bring the pH to about 8 and then mashing with that. If that doesn't work I'd try increasing the buffering capacity of the water by adding bicarbonate (sodium bicarbonate). Start with a small amount and repeat experiments increasing incrementally until the desired result is obtained. Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:25:17 EDT From: Tombrau at aol.com Subject: H2O2 Ingestion and HSO Hello Fellow Brewers: I have been following the H2O2 thread vaguely and recalled that there is a belief that ingesting food grade H2O2 cures anaerobic illnesses such as cancer and viral diseases. There are several books and websites (oxytherapy.com, for one) that make quite a case for oxygenating your body for good health. As well, they note the oxidative process and free radical release. An increase in anti-oxident vitamins is recommended while on oxygen therapy. I read some interesting testimonials, one old cancer ridden fellow would play cards in his H2O2'd hot tub. He and his pals cancers went into remission within a few months. One other thing I learned about is the Lourdes (sp?) in France. A healing and restorative spring for centuries has been found to have naturally occurring H2O2. There are health clinics around the country that actually give H2O2 intravenously. So it seems, when oxygenating your yeast with H2O2, always give them Vitamin A, C and E for their antioxident qualities. But, A and E are oils. Will that effect my head retention? : ) I am intrigued by O2 and it's role in our world and even further by the parallels in the above subject and yeast's aerobic nature. I am interested to see what the more technical than I in this forum think of all this. Blunder of the Month And on a similar note, a few weeks ago I closed the valve on the out side of my heat exchanger to let the cold liquor catch up. I left the O2 on though and a few minutes later the hopback was bubbling furiously. It took me a moment to realize I had pushed O2 all the way through the H.E. and bubbling into the 200f+ hopback. I know HSA is bad, HSO (hot side oxygenation) must be terrible!!! I presume the beer ( a very hoppy and malty "brewpub red") will deteriate quickly. Am I correct in this? >From hot and sunny Orlando (Hello Jeff) Cheers Tom Moench Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:13:02 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Water+ Troy seems to be having difficulty reducing acidity in his water, and Hubert mit Hangover remarks an the Nitrogen.v.Nitrates in another readers water. This all points to an impending question I have when I switch to well water in a few months. AJ deLange posted ... >For a brewing water analysis you want to know "the significant seven" >parameters: pH, calcium hardness, magnesium hardness, alkalinity >(total), chloride, sulfate and chlorine. "the significant seven" is a great starter list (tho' I preferred the Kurosawa film), but for brewing I think we might want to review more items. Does anyone have a more complete list of water assays that *should* be performed to evaluate water for brewing. Certainly you'd like to know things like iron, sodium, zinc, copper and with nitrates perhaps the "dirty dozen" mark is met. AJ, anyone, can you come up with a more complete list and some numerical bounds ? -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:28:11 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: H2O2/Cleaning Carboys/... Jens Briesofsky posted some great stuff about H2O2 in wort >> 2H2O2 >> 2H2O + O2?? > >This is unfortunatly not the reaction that takes place. What happens is > >H2O2 -> H20 + O* The reaction rate constant for Jens description is vastly higher. A more favored reaction yet is ... H2O2 + Cu+ -> OH + OH- + Cu++ (Km = 8.7*10^3 /M.sec) and similarly for iron and some other metal ions, None of this is particularly desirable from a flavor standpoint. >I regard that as a potential health risk and will no try it - but a perfect >way to find [...] No thanks. H2O2 (and even formaldehyde) have been commercially in the mash used to enhance colloidal stability and apparently H2O2 is much better (by about a factor of 2) than O2 at oxidizing/removing polyphenols when added at this early (pre-break) stage. I'd expect some polyphenol reactions when added to the fermenter too. Three years ago I experimented w/ H2O2 in the mash, but I think it's pretty worthless compared to other techniques of stabilization. I'm with you Jens - H2O2 is a nice choice as a sanitizer but I'm not interested in it as a O2 source (except indirectly as Ken Schwartz suggested). - -- David Craft writes ... >I usually put some PBW brand, powdered brewery wash, in the carboy and let >it soak for about a week. I rinse a used carboy well with COLD water and then to give is a soak for several days with a cleanser in COLD water. I've used PWB, TSP, chlorine bleach and unscented diswasher soap. All of these work well, tho' I haven't tried split batch comparisons (I'm sure Pivo has ;^) . There is very little or no visible crud adhesion to the glass after this treatment - so little scrubbing required. Warm/hot water seems to 'set' the protein residue and makes it harder to clean in my experience. - -- Jim Liddil writes ... >Just some topics to think about instead of Australia and >hating Steve Alexander. :-) :-) But Jim - what would fill the heads of knuckle-draggers without someone to hate ? Seriously Jim - I would like to hear *your* knowledgeable input on the matter of Lambic brewing. It's an unexperienced interest of mine and the discussions of the range and succession of fermenting organisms always makes me wonder if I shouldn't volauf thru a well used sewer trap. Strange stuff - but great. Talking about odd ferments ... I've been working my way thru a case of Shephard Neam 'Spitfire' export ale. A very refreshing light bodied brew. Medium brown color and a bit of a 'Nut Brown' type flavor profile, nice level of bitterness - but the oddity is that it appears to have a significant acetic acid flavor & aroma which is more apparent when served too cold. Purposeful or not the extra acidity and acetic flavors 'work' in this ale. Very nice summer beer btw. -Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:10:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Spurrier <ggspurr at yahoo.com> Subject: Predicting efficiency when steeping grains Greetings Fellow Brewers, I've been unable to find a satisfactory discussion of recipe forumulation for extract recipes that include steeped grains; once the topic of efficiency comes up, all the literature that I've read seems to assume partial-mash or all-grain. So, I thought I'd ask here. Before launching into my questions, let me set the background with the grain bill for an APA that I recently brewed: 6.2 lb Pale Malt Extract 1.0 lb Crystal Malt (40L) 0.5 lb CaraPils Malt 0.25 lb Wheat Malt I steeped the grains in two gallons of water at 155 F for 45 minutes then sparged them with another half gallon of water at 160 F. After adding the malt extract, taking a hydrometer reading, and extrapolating to a five gallon batch I ended up with a gravity of 1.049, which is about what ProMash predicted if I had been an mashing the grains and set my efficiency to 50%. My first question is whether this apparent 50% efficiency for the grains will apply when steeping other combinations (and proportions) of grain, or is it a direct result of the proportions of the particular grains that I used in this case? I'm assuming that if I were only using crystal malt I could determine the efficiency and expect it to remain constant. But, what about the CaraPils and Wheat? I read somewhere that CaraPils can be steeped, but does it give the same relative efficiency as crystal? Am I gaining any fermentables by steeping the wheat or does it absolutely have to be mashed to produce any extract? Is there a list somewhere of "steepable grains" from which one can expect to extract fermentables without conducting a real mash? Also, does anyone know a good reference for formulating extract + steeped grains recipes? I've got _Designing Great Beers_ and I find it quite useful, but it's not quite clear to me how to adjust for the fact that I'm not doing any mashing. Thanks, Greg Spurrier San Jose, California Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:52:04 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: death of H:W .... now it's W:H per Kunze David Harsh writes .... >consider the topic dead, Steve Your "shear force as cause" topic ? Yeah it's dead. I said I see no necessary physical connection between H:W as an isolated factor and poor fermentation performance. You asserted the shear was the missing link. So you'd need to show that H:W independently determines distinct levels of shear, and that these distinct levels of shear cause poorer fermentation performance. You've failed to provide convincing arguments for either. About a month back I posted: >I'm all ears Dave. If you can write the equations that show that >circulation induced shear forces are entirely dependent on H:W and not >dependent on other factors like volume your argument becomes much more >plausible. and I'm still waiting. === As for Nathaniel Lansings suggestion that I am twisting statements by excluding context. If I said, "I came up with microcomputers. It was presented at a great lecture in 1978 ... " people would say I was mistaken or worse. "Come up with" is defined in my AH dictionary as to "propose or produce". Mr.Fix may well have posted a typo or misstatement that was never intended - no shame there, but I did not misinterpret the words. I also feel it's very important to properly credit the real innovators like C.Rainbow. === Information (for a change) .... Anyone interested will find a nice note on shear induced floculation of yeasts related to fining at: http://www.breworld.com/the%5Fbrewer/9602/br2.html btw. This paper doesn't address the points of contention but does give some nice graphical representation to something Dave and I seem to agree on - shear induces flocculation in flocculent yeast. No surprises but a nice short presentation with decent graphics. === Another interesting source is Kunze's TB&M, pp 368 in discussing CCs notes that wort height should be kept under 15m (49ft) because of pressure but cites higher examples. In the next section Kunze discusses diameter:width ratio. or W:H r ather than H:W in relation to CC fermenters only. That he only refers to CC vessels is a very telling point. Kunze suggests a W:H (overall height) is a matter of opinion, but that ratios of 1:1 up to 1:5 are suggested. He points to Unterstein's paper in Brauwelt as a trend toward wider vessels, specifically stating that wider vessels imply a 1:2 W:H ratio, and various other details. Kunze is specific to note that he is talking about primary fermenters with a typical 12-14 ft diameter and not our little HB fermenters. === I've an experiment underway and I'll post the results when it's thru. -Steve Return to table of contents
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