HOMEBREW Digest #3704 Thu 09 August 2001

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  Re: Software Piracy (Robert Schmidt)
  Re: Software Piracy (Christopher Farley)
  Sparge Water Distributors (Karen & Troy Hager)
  Re: At last a trip to Europe... (Massimo & Rosalba)
  Re: Copper toxicity ("G Zellmann")
  Re: Dry Hopping with pellets ("RJ")
  Dry hopping ("Erik Nelson")
  Re: opensource brewing software (Steven)
  Dry Hopping with pellets (Joe Yoder)
  RE: Software (Piracy) (Joel Plutchak)
  Trip to Belgium (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer at indsys.ge.com>
  Software Piracy / Opensource brewing software (Skyking)
  CO2 and Germany (JGORMAN)
  Sour mash beer ("Scott Basil")
  pH (AJ)
  NIR spectroscopy ("Sean Richens")
  Competition Software ("Mark Tumarkin")
  2001 Dixie Cup Competition Announcement "La Copa Dixie" ("Sean")
  Oxidation during lautering ("Gary Smith")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 01:21:57 -0400 From: Robert Schmidt <robert at xcopia.ca> Subject: Re: Software Piracy > I'm interested... I've actually started to put together an xml schema for a > cross-platform, cross-measurement-unit recipe file format - I would prefer > it to be a community owned and driven concept; if we managed to get a > software project going, it would be an ideal forum for feedback & further > development. > > In other words, count me in for the project. > > Sam. That sounds cool. Chris, can you set up the mailing list (if we are doing something Free we could use SourceForge). It would also make sense for it to be a web application (would work nicely with your XML schema). My experience is primarily php/mysql but I know java, etc and I'm willing to contribute some code to this. I don't have a good idea of the specification, but I'm sure there are lots of people on here willing to help with that. However, I think we should move this discussion off this list quickly :) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 00:36:21 -0500 From: Christopher Farley <chris at northernbrewer.com> Subject: Re: Software Piracy Mark Vernon wrote: > Chris, > I think the reason is that ProMash, for $25 or so, is a great deal - and a > great product. As a programmer in a former life, I can appreciate the effort > required to create such a full featured application. I have no affiliation > with ProMash - just an extremely happy user. I don't disagree. ProMash is an incredibly useful piece of software, well worth the $25. There's nothing else that even comes close, and it would be a tremendous challenge to produce a product that would approach the usefulness of ProMash. That said, I think it's do-able. It's just my feeling that a community-developed brewing application would be extremely successful. Please don't take this the wrong way, but there are an enormous number of homebrew-geeks. I'm talking about the kind of people who wear t-shirts that say things like 'grep this', and do so with pride. I think that it would be very easy to find a few good, possibly underemployed programmers/homebrewers to work on such a project, especially since software development can be done across the world quite easily. Furthermore, the whole 'do it yourself' and 'shared knowledge' philosophy of homebrewing seems to logically lead toward a non-proprietary, community-developed software package. If homebrewers can make beer that rivals 'the big boys', then it is certainly possible for a few homebrewers to get together and make a killer homebrewing application. If one or more competitors to ProMash were to emerge, free or otherwise, I think that would probably be a good thing for the small-but-vital brewing software 'industry'. Rather than run the risk of flooding the digest with off-topic technical details, I've posted a few of my ideas about such a project at http://forum.northernbrewer.com I would emphasize that I am not, nor have ever been, a software developer in this life or any other. - -- Christopher Farley www.northernbrewer.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 23:29:40 -0700 From: Karen & Troy Hager <thager at smcoe.k12.ca.us> Subject: Sparge Water Distributors Here is a question to the collective... How many of you use some kind of sprinkling/manifold system to distribute the sparge/recirculation water on top of the grain bed? And, how many of you, like myself use nothing but the tube from the HLT or pump? When I first started brewing I was intrigued by the little sparge arm mechanism that spun around on its own and evenly distributed the water across the top of the mash tun... seemed like a nifty gadget. So I bought it and after trying it a couple of times I found it a big PITA to use - it was hard to control the temps with it as well because of the loss of temp from small drops falling through cool air. From that point on I just used the HLT tubing lying on top of the grain bed. In my opinion, Martin hit it on the head when he said, "The other reason I believe that homebrewers use sprinkler systems is because the big boys use them." Just think about it, if your mash tun is 10, 20, maybe 30 feet or more across it *would* be a big deal to get the recirculation and sparge water to distribute evenly across the huge surface area, but on a homebrew scale with a mash tun maybe 18 in across?? it is *not* a big deal. My HLT has a 1/2 tube coming off it - same as my pump for recirculation. I make sure the tube is under the surface and sparge or pump away. Every once in a while I move it around on top. That's it. This very simple method gives me efficiencies in the mid to high 80s for every brew. Martin also comments, "I've seen several sprinkling systems on the market or created by homebrewers. I agree with the premise that we need to gently distribute sparge water across the grainbed without disturbance." Why? I repeatedly disturb the top inch or two of the grain bed with no ill effects... I suppose if you shot a high powered jet of water into the bed or jammed your tubing down close to the false bottom you might loose the filter bed but who would do that? With a grain bed of a foot or more you can probably muck around all you want on top and never see any difference in the clarity of the runnoff. Just my two cents. I've always wondered about the energy and elaborate innovative designs that have gone into making what I feel is a somewhat worthless piece of homebrewing equipment. Now I'm sure I will hear endless arguments from people who are in love with their specially designed manifold system of sparge water distribution along with filter bed flow patterns and calculations of how to eke out that last percent of extract.... Bring 'em on... maybe you will persuade me to make my own. ;>) Troy Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 10:51:26 +0200 From: Massimo & Rosalba <rosamax at split.it> Subject: Re: At last a trip to Europe... Hi! > My girlfriend and I are going to Europe in Sept for 3 weeks and would >like some recommendations as to where to stop for good beer?? We will be >driving a rental and don't mind some off the beaten track kinda gigs. We >will be visitng England(shortest stay of all due to distance and time >constraints), Belgium(Brussels and Antwerp), Germany(Nuremburg and Munich >for Oktoberfest), Switzerland(Zurich, Interlakken, Thun, and Zermatt to see >the Matterhorn), Just over the border to say we went to Italy and to have >some good Italian food, then up[ through France on our way to Amsterdam. Even if you want to go "just over the border to Italy" you will be able to sample some good italian beers, as the best 3 brewpubs/micros are all in NW Italy... they are: - Le Baladin in Piozzo (CN) - Piemonte (about 2.5h from Swiss border) Absolutely n.1: excellent ales (brewer studied in Belgium and worked with Brasserie Vapeur among others). Specializing also in bottle conditioned ales. - Birrificio Italiano in Lurago (CO) - Lombardia (close to swiss border) Best italian lagers. Well known for food also. - Birrificio Lambrate in Milan - Lombardia Nice little place with some very good ales. There are also other good brewpubs (though IMO not up to the same level), e.g. Beba in Piemonte mountains, Busalla near Genova (my town), and Cittavecchia in the "Far east" near Trieste. In this moment there are about 70 brewpubs and microbreweries here in Italy (they were no more than 5 or 6 just 3 years ago). You can find an (almost) complete listing, including address, tel. numbers and some reviews in this section of my beer/homebrewing site: http://www.maxbeer.org/eng/guide.htm (it's in english!) There was a long and interesting article on Italian brewing in the January Issue of All About Beer, written by my friend Lorenzo. Here you can find an HTML version: http://www.allaboutbeer.com/features/216italbrew.html It's a bit messed up because it is "glued" with a fragment of an article about czech beer, and it is missing some informations, so if you have the magazine it is better to read it there. So HBDers, don't forget Italy during your Europe beer trip... it's not just food and wine ;-) Ciao Massimo Faraggi - Genova, Italy www.maxbeer.org Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 11:55:55 +0200 From: "G Zellmann" <gregor at blinx.de> Subject: Re: Copper toxicity Hi fellow brewers, a few days ago the topic of copper toxicity came up in HBD. I am sure that copper can be potentially toxic to yeasts and other organisms in big amounts. On the other hand yeast loves traces of copper to reproduce healthily! a befriended brewmaster who owns and runs a traditional brewery in Bavaria made the following observation: He invested *lots* of money in a new 15 hl brewery recently, 100% made of stainless steel (kettles, piping, conical fermenters, conical lagering tanks). He took over the old brewery from his father and bought the new one to save time and energy costs. But with the new brewery and the old recipes, his beers would ferment down *always* a few points higher than with the old one. After trying different things with unsatisfying results (still too high FG), he finally decided to get the brass false bottom from his old mashing kettle cut to size and replace the new ss one. This solved all his fermenting troubles! I know of other ss breweries where the brewers hang a piece of copper into the boil to get some "vitamines" for the yeasts. I use a copper manifold as a strainer in my mash kettle and cool my worts with a copper immersion chiller. This seems to work fine. just my 2 Pfennige greetings Gregor Zellmann Berlin, Germany Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:45:34 -0400 From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Dry Hopping with pellets "Branam, Mike" <Mike.Branam at ccur.com> wrote: "I brewed an all grain Fuller's ESB this past weekend and will be racking it next weekend. The recipe calls for it to be dry hopped. The hops I got are pellets. Can I just sprinkle them into the top of the secondary carboy or do I need to put them in a hop sack? I usually add unflavored gelatin to the secondary a couple of days after racking. Will this cause a problem with the hops?" You can just toss them in or put them in a hop bagged weighed down (I use ceramic pie plate balls as they are relatively heavy and inert and move easily on removal), but in either case you'll need to rack again before doing the gelatin step. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:04:13 -0500 From: "Erik Nelson" <heimbrauer at astound.net> Subject: Dry hopping I would like to know from those who have experience with this since I am new at it. I will be dry hopping an esb that I will be making. I would like to know if it is better to use hop pellets vs hop plugs. One person told me to use plugs. I will be putting them in a mesh bag in the secondary for two weeks Thanks Erik Nelson heimbrauer at astound.net Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:27:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven <stevensl at mindspring.net> Subject: Re: opensource brewing software > Check it out at http://www.usermode.org/code.html If it doesn't provide > all the features you're looking for, let the development team know (or > better yet, get involved yourself). Hrm looks intresting. Got it, frankly its quite nice. > There are also pre-compiled binaries available for Debian and SuSE > Linux, or you can build your own from source. It uses the Qt widget > set, which is also freely available at www.trolltech.com. There is also a *BSD port located in /usr/ports/misc which compiled fine under 4.3-stable for me. > If you're looking for a Windoze or Mac port, I don't know of any, but > then what is the point of a "free" program after purchasing a > proprietary OS? Technically speaking this could be easily ported to windows and mac. QT has runtime libs for both mac and windows, the only limitation the the GUI interface. Should be mickey mouse under windows, mac a bit more difficult but nevertheless do-able. I'll fiddle with it under OS X and see what can happen. Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl at mindspring.net ::: 403forbidden.net "Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 08:29:52 -0500 From: Joe Yoder <headduck at swbell.net> Subject: Dry Hopping with pellets Mike wrote: <I brewed an all grain Fuller's ESB this past weekend and will be racking it next weekend. The recipe calls for it to be dry hopped. The hops I got are pellets. Can I just sprinkle them into the top of the secondary carboy or do I need to put them in a hop sack? I usually add unflavored gelatin to the secondary a couple of days after racking. Will this cause a problem with the hops?> I always use pellet hops when dry hopping. I simply add them to the secondary. The hops always seem to drop out in about a week and then I keg the beer. I don't use gelatin and I don't have problems with hop particles in my finished beer. ymmv Joe Yoder Lawrence, KS Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:59:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu> Subject: RE: Software (Piracy) in HBD #3703, Sam Ritchie wrote: >I'm interested... I've actually started to put together an xml schema for >a cross-platform, cross-measurement-unit recipe file format - I would >prefer it to be a community owned and driven concept; if we managed to >get a software project going, it would be an ideal forum for feedback & >further development. Yes! A couple years back a group brewing software effort started, and I tried to get them to use emerging standards like XML. They'd have no part of it-- too complex, they said. Use platform-independent, sensible stuff like XML and Java and I'll contribute. Incidentally, I haven't heard from the aforementioned group of software writers, so I assume that effort died in the fermenter. Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu> Brewin' Java, XML, and beer in East-Central Illinois Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:17:45 -0400 From: "Moyer, Douglas (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer at indsys.ge.com> Subject: Trip to Belgium Beer Travelers, SWMBO has granted my wish to take a vacation to Belgium specifically to visit beer-related sites. For those of you that have done similar trips, is any time of year significantly better than the rest? Any time that would clearly be a bad idea? Kel suggested November (citing that we will be doing beer stuff and not, therefore, concerned with the weather) but, bereft of information, that seems like a bad idea. Comments and suggestions? Brew on! Doug Moyer Salem, VA Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity Return to table of contents
Date: 08 Aug 2001 16:50:24 +0200 From: Skyking <skyking at bredband.net> Subject: Software Piracy / Opensource brewing software Christopher Farley brought up the idea of starting a project for developing an opensource brewing software (hbd#3702) and I would like to give my point on this and related stuff. If there is a point in actually developing such a program I think it has to be more than a simple spreadsheet or even a advanced spreadsheed and I wouldn't think that bundling it with a custom made software for accessing the spreadsheet doesn't alter that property. As for QBrew (Rorik Peterson, hbd#3703), after checking it out I think it looks just like that, namely something that could as well easily be implemented through a spreadsheet. As for contributing to the project I'm interested in programing and I've outlined some ideas about some sort of brewing software, but my interest is dependent on a meaningful concept as stated above. In addition I think there should be more than programmers involved in a project like this, first ther have to be potential users (other than the programmers) with ideas of what the software should be like and later there has to be someone to write decent documentation on the program. So I think the first thing we would have to do is to assemble a team and outline what we want to do and see if we have a project at all. If we get this going I think we need a separate mailing list and sooner or later a cvs repository. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:41:00 -0400 From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com Subject: CO2 and Germany I purchased a used CO2 tank from a welding shop. Has anyone ever experienced a contaminant of some sort from their tank purchased at a welding supplier? I assume the only way this would happen would be during hydro-testing when the valve is off. Is it still true that you can only get a koelsch in Koln? I am going to be in Nuremburg in September was hoping to try and authentic koelsch but unfortunately won't have the time to go to Koln. Jason Gorman River Dog Brewery Grand Rapids MI Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:00:46 -0500 From: "Scott Basil" <sbasil at glasgow-ky.com> Subject: Sour mash beer I have been brewing for several years, and have experimented with a lot of different styles. But, being from Kentucky, I've always been curious about sour mash beer. It doesn't seem like very many people have tried it, and the only recipe I have ever seen was in Charlie P's book. Has anybody out there tasted or brewed a sour mash recipe? Is it worth the time and effort? Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 19:22:09 +0000 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: pH A couple of weeks ago there was debate as to how well one could measure pH. Yesterday the ASBC journal came and in the back they summarized results from the 2000 check service program. The way this works is that subscribers are each sent the same beer and each analyzes it in his laboratory. The results are then sent back the ASBC for collation. In 2000 18 domestic and 17 international breweries participated and two check sample were sent out. For the first set the standard deviation in pH measurement across all the labs was 0.10 pH with a mean of 4.25, a max of 4.37 and a min of 4.00. Pretty pathetic all around. For the second beer the standard deviation was 0.05 units with a mean of 4.50 a max of 4.62 and a min of 4.38. The first set of data hints that the 0.1 value suggested by some might be as good as one can expect whereas the second set hints that half that would be a reasonable expectation. The fact that two professionals can measure the same sample opf beer and come up with answers 0.37 pH units apart just boggles my mind. It guess it just proves that it doesn't matter who you are, where you work or how much experience you may have; if you don't know what you are doing you're likely to draw erroneous conclusions. So we assume that the high and low guys blew it for the group. Backing out those two measurements gets the SD on the first beer down to 0.087 IOW it wasn't those two guys alone that were responsible for this miserable performance. In fact one begins to suspect that maybe exemplars from that set underwent pH changes during shipping. The fact that the second sample was so much better (SD 0.038 with the highest and lowest readings backed out) tends to suggest this. Before being too critical of these anonymous brewery lab workers I should point out that my own guys rejected a dozen microwave connectors based on failure to adequately consider calibration when using a network analyzer (a device even more finicky than a pH meter). They were, in fact, all good. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 18:24:37 -0500 From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca> Subject: NIR spectroscopy Jim Suchy was good enough to send me a pdf of the following. Unfortunately, I don't have a website, so I can't make it available online. Good luck in tracking it down. J. Am. Soc. Brew. Chem. 58(2), 73-82, 2000 Garden, Scott W., Pruneda, T., Irby, S., Hysert, D.W. Development of Near-Infrared Calibrations for Hop Analysis They use 1100-2498 nm wavelength range on hop samples coarsely ground, then finely ground in a Braun coffee grinder. After that it gets complicated. Sean Richens srichens.spamsucks at sprint.ca Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:45:44 -0400 From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com> Subject: Competition Software Hey y'all, I am a member of the AHA Board of Advisors. We are evaluating several software packages designed for running Homebrew Competitions. At this point, we are brainstorming a Features/Functions wish list. We will use this wish list to evaluate and compare a number of packages to try to find one that we can then offer to AHA and BJCP Sanctioned Competitions as freeware (at no or minimal charge). We'd like to choose the best possible package and then work with the developers to add any missing critical features. I'd like to ask for input from anyone who has experience as a Competition Organizer. We'd like to come up with a comprehensive, easy to use package that would do as much as possible to make organizing and running a competition easier. Please email me with a list of the features and functions that you'd like to see in this type of software. Also please let me know if you have developed such a package or have used software that we should consider in our search. The more input we get at this stage, the better decision we'll be able to make. I think this is a project that will benefit the entire homebrew community and I'd like to invite you to help. It would probably be best to email me directly on this, though if there's enough interest we can certainly brainstorm on this list as well, Mark Tumarkin AHA Board of Advisors mark_t at ix.netcom.com or MarkTumarkin at aob.org Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:40:35 -0500 From: "Sean" <SeanL at houston.rr.com> Subject: 2001 Dixie Cup Competition Announcement "La Copa Dixie" The Houston Foam Rangers Homebrew Club presents The 18th Annual Dixie Cup Homebrew Competition "La Copa Dixie" October 19-20, 2001 - Houston, Texas Come join the Houston Foam Rangers as we host the biggest homebrew fiesta, "La Copa Dixie". Date: October 19-20, 2001 Location: Courtyard by Marriott - Galleria, 3131 West Loop South, Houston, Texas Eligibility: Open to any one who wishes to enter. Entries cannot be brewed in a commercial-type facility. Names of all persons brewing the beer must appear on the entry form. Regular Entry Due Date: October 5, 2001 Regular Entry Fee: $6.00 per entry. (Check or money order payable to The Hosuton Foam Rangers). Late Entry Due Date: October 12, 2000 Late Entry fee: $10.00 per entry. (Check or money order payable to The Houston Foam Rangers). Entries: 3 unmarked 8-16 oz. brown or green unmarked bottles, for beer and cider. Please, no raised glass or silk screen markings or labels on the bottles. Printed caps must be blackened out. For mead entries, 6 oz. bottles, "nips" are permitted. Categories: Ribbons awarded in 40 Categories of Beer, Cider and Mead. See BJCP guidelines for details. One way in which we have fun is with one special beer category each year. The style isn't "normal" by any stretch of the imagination. Past styles have included "Big and Stupid", Malt Liquor (Served in a 40 oz. clear glass bottle that the judges passed around), or last year's "Imperial Beers. This year is no exception as we offer "Beers That Burn Twice", any entry using hot peppers as an ingredient, and with a minimum original gravity of 1.070. Send your entries to: The Dixie Cup c/o DeFalco's Home Wine and Beer Supply 8715 Stella Link Rd. Houston, TX 77025-3401 Reservations: Courtyard by Marriott - Galleria Phone: 1-800-321-2211, or 713-961-1640 Important: Specify "Dixie Cup Homebrew Competition" to get $55.00 per night rate! Events: Covered in admission: All judging events, Potluck Supper, Fred Tasting, Saturday Milliconference, Award ceremony Ticket required for Saturday afternoon Pub Crawl For more information contact Jimmy Paige at 713-956-8438, or 281-894-0307 or e-mail: hop5 at gateway.net , web site: www.foamrangers.com Mark your calendar for October 20 and 21, 2000! We hope to see you here, but bring your own sombrero! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:58:31 -0500 From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com> Subject: Oxidation during lautering > Christopher Mika asks: > > >One other issue I could use some input on is in the design of a sparge > arm FWIW, My new sparge arm is probably an old design. I made it out of 1/2" copper pipe, T fittings and 90 degree elbows: Parts list: 11: 1/2" T's 12: 1/2" 90 degree elbows 16: 1/2" sections 1" long 6: 1/2" sections 2 1/2" long 1: 1/2" section 4" long 1: 1/2" ID Norprene tubing 2" long 1: 1/2" barbed Female quick disconnect from movingbrews there's a center T with the inflow being a 4" tube. To that is are 2.5" tubes attached. These tubes run into T's which also have 2.5" tubes attached. The tubes run into T's At the outer hole from the T's I connected a 90 degree elbow (These are about 2 inches from the sides of a 15 gal SS keg). At ther inner hole from the T's I connected another T joining via a 1" piece of pipe. On both ends of these T's I joined 90 degree elbows. All are silver soldered. This gives me 12 1/2" openings aproximately 3 1/2" apart from each other evenly spaced. The only "gap" in the even placement is at the T ends of the first 2 1/2" tubes coming from the inflow. If I could have found a four way connector, I could have put a 90 degree elbow at that junction point making 14 outlets and all 3 1/2" apart but I think that would be a mistake. I suspect the fluid would take the path of least resistance and most of the liquid would be forced out of those first 90 degree elbows. As it is, all the water gets equally forced down each arm which has three outlets so the liquid gets evenly dispersed. It rests in the keg with about a 2" margin between the arm & the side of the tank. This will be used for both RIMS & sparge. There's a Movingbrews quick disconnect on the top of it so when it comes time to sparge, I'll just switch connectord to the sparge tank. I had fun working the pattern out on autocad so that it would give the maximum dispersion. Well, I made this part but my RIMS is still not completed. I did run water through this contraption with my peristaltic (for sparge) & magnetic (for RIMS) and it does a wonderful job of evenly distributing the water with no discernable eddy currents. Yup, the proof is in the pudding though so I'll keep y'all informed how well it does when put to the acid test. Cheers, Gary http://www.geocities.com/dawgmandolin P.S.: One thing I'd like to know is what's the best way to remove any flux inside copper pipes once you've silver soldered them? I thought about making a soapy solution & recirculating it through the arm for half an hour or so. Maybe a vinegar bath & recirculate that? Return to table of contents
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