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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Raspberry beer ("Bissell, Todd S")
  Re: beer distance ("Jack Tourette")
  Massive over-carbonation problem ("Jeff Woods")
  Re: n/a beer ("RJ")
  Hot Scotchies ("Ray Daniels")
  high FGs (Rolf Karlsson)
  Stuck Sparge (Ant Hayes)
  Beer miles (Ant Hayes)
  Hashing and engineering (Bjoern.Thegeby)
  Rennerian Distance, Laval (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Re: San Antonio (Jason Mobley)
  Rye pils update ("Joel Halpine")
  a modest proposal re: pumpkin ("Bret Morrow")
  topping up ("steve lane")
  Airlocks ("Crouch, Kevin E")
  regarding fruit beers (raspberry, pomegranate) ("chris eidson")
  UNC Chemists figure out what causes skunkiness (stpats)
  San Antonio / Raspberry Juice (stpats)


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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:58:40 -0700
From: "Bissell, Todd S" <tbissell at spawar.navy.mil>
Subject: RE: Raspberry beer


> Stephan asked..."With the onset of fall, I have been
> brewing more and have decided that I would like to add
> a Raspberry pale ale to the list.  With so many
> recommendations as how to go about using fruit in a
> pale ale, I am starting to get confused.  What is the
> proper way to utilize raspberry in a pale ale? "

> Denis responded..."I just returned from a visit to Austin,
> during which I made a couple of trips to St. Patricks of
> Texas...and they have a Belgian Raspberry juice that you
> add at bottling/kegging that supposed to be just the ticket.
> This would eliminate much of the haze problem. It's
> about 7.5 USD for a pint, but very pure stuff. I'm
> going to try it later this Fall...."

I'm in the process of experimenting with that exact same juice, Denis. I
poured in a shot-glass of it into my 5 gallon Secondary fermenter full of
Porter, about three days before I planned on bottling it (I figured that the
three days would ensure an uniform dispersal). During bottling, I had a
taste of the finished product (as finished as warm, flat beer can be, that
is!), and I think I may be onto to something interesting...! Seeing that a
Raspberry Pale Ale is no stranger than a Raspberry Porter, I would give my
tentative recommendation for trying out St Pats' Raspberry juice. Good luck!

Cheers!

Todd Bissell
Imperial Beach, CA
USA, North America
Earth, Sol, Milky Way
This Here Universe... :}

(Sorry, the Rennerian thing has become a bit old hat...! :)





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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:11:30 +0500
From: "Jack Tourette" <tourette at crosswinds.net>
Subject: Re: beer distance

> Surely someone on the list is a member of a Hash House
> Harrier group and could give us their guidance on the beer-
> to-distance conundrum. Over the years I have run as a 
> guest at three H3 groups. All shared the "running club with
> a drinking problem" spirit and dedication. I think the 
> courses, not counting false trails, tended to be concluded 
> in an hour to an hour-and-a-half and probably were about six
> to seven miles.

That's "A drinking club with a running problem" :-)

Different clubs do different distances; distance also depends 
on the hare (drunken slob, marathoner) and the terrain (swamp, 
mall, airport, suburban neighborhood, etc.), weather, and 
myriad other factors (e.g., bar proximity, shortcut potential, 
access to public transportation).  The Hashes I drank with 
tended toward ~60 minute courses, average distances of 4-5 
miles, with at least one beer stop midway.

See my stupid collection of Hash-related quotations in 
FFT->H->Hash House Harriers.
==============================
Jack Tourette
tourette at crosswinds.net
www.crosswinds.net/~tourette/fft.htm


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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:11:27 -0400
From: "Jeff Woods" <woodsj at us.ibm.com>
Subject: Massive over-carbonation problem

I have a massive foam problem in a corny keg draft system.  Made a Belgian
strong
Ale recently that's 90% foam coming out of the tap.  I had force carbonated
a few
weeks ago.  Turned the gas to 25 psi for 2 days.  It was real foamy at
first so the gas
was disconnected and pressure vented.  I kept venting the pressure twice
per day
over a 7-10 day period.  There was pressure released each time I pulled to
relief
valve.  Over last weekend I hooked the gas again and it's still 90% foam.
I checked
the gravity and it's the same as when it finished fermenting.  When you
pour a glass
the head reduces over a few minutes and looks like a nitrogen head
churning.  I don't
suspect an infection problem but who knows.  This is my normal carbonation
procedure
but I've never had this much foam for sooooo long.

HELP, it makes the beer practically undrinkable.  Do I keep releasing
pressure ??
At this point I don't know if there's anything else to do.

Jeff Woods
Camp Hill, PA, USA, North American continent, Western Hemisphere of Planet
Earth,
Third planet from the sun, Milky Way galaxy, the rest I don't know
(Rennerian coordinates unknown)



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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:32:54 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: n/a beer

Lonzo McLaughlin lonkelm at netzero.net wrote:
Subject: n/a beer

>Is there a way to make a n/a beer at home or with some basic
>equipment.  I'm looking for ideas outside of watering down beer.

Lonzo,

Here's a method and recipe from years back:
#156 LA East

3# Belgian Pilsen Malt
3.75oz Belgian Aromatic Malt
4.25oz Honey Malt
Dough-in 4-1/2Qts H2O  at  64F, raise to 136F in 18 minutes; Hold 10 min
Raise heat to 148F in 10 min, hold 10 min
Add 1-1/2 Qts 210F H2O to raise temp 158F; Hold 60 min
Sparge with 7-1/2Qts H2O Treated with Lactic Acid to 5.2pH

90 min boil
2 HBU Ge. Mittlefruh cones  at  FWH
0.9 HBU Ge. Hersbrucker T-90  at  60min remaining
1 HBU Ge. Mittlefruh cones & 1/2tsp Irish Moss  at  40min remaining
1/2 oz Ge. Mittlefruh cones  at  1 min remaining in mesh bag; Let steep for 20
min then remove bag before counterflowing.

5-3/4 gals captured.

Pitch 250ml Germ Lager Yeast, let stand overnight  at 50F then rack to primary.
Ferment  at  low end of yeast's temp range, 7 days.  Rack to 2ndary & Allow 1
day  at  65F before lagering.  Lager 8 days at 38F.
Keg and force 2.7vol CO2.

0.8% ABV

Note: Had a bready flovor not unlike Morretti's from Italy, must be drunk
within a month as the flavor fades fast!

>What is this vacuum method of removing alcohol?

Sorry don't know this method..







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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:57:24 -0500
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Hot Scotchies

My good friend and most devoted student of the brewing literature, Zemo,
points out the appearance of Hot Scotchies in one of my books.  I may have
been the most recent author to publish the practice of infusing a glass of
wort with a bit of (cheap) scotch, but I'm certainly not the first nor am I
the inventor.  I learned this trick from Jim Parker, co-author of the Brown
Ale book (which is where it is actually published).  Jim is an experienced
brewer, bartender, writer, publisher and brewery association manager (AHA,
briefly and now Oregon Brewers Guild).  He also happens to be one of the
funniest people I know and a very dangerous man to drink with (stories best
left for another day . . . ).  In any case, the beverage is a wonderful
brew-day restorative and one I now enjoy with regularity.

TTFN,

Ray Daniels
Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer
Director, Brewers Publications
ray at aob.org

Call Customer Service at 888-822-6273 to subscribe or order individual
magazines.
For more information, see www.beertown.org

Don't Miss:
Real Ale Festival - Feb 27 - March 2, 2002 - Chicago, IL
www.realalefestival.com



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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:00:44 -0400
From: Rolf Karlsson <bz4n8v at naeng.gm.com>
Subject: high FGs

The other day Jeff mentioned that Laaglander is notorious for
finishing high, and that's not the first time I've heard that. I
am now finding out firsthand, though I think it's almost at a
point where I can bottle a potable product (Laaglander Dark
Dutch extract and a couple pounds of dark spraymalt: OG 1.043,
FG 1.015 despite adding amylase and agitating in secondary).
Does anyone with more experience have any theories as to why
Laaglander tends to be this way?

Rolf Karlsson
[44.2, 9.3] Rennerian
or (42.928, -83.6854)
- -- 
"Hey, mighty brontosaurus, don't you have a lesson for us?"
        -The Police, "Walking In Your Footsteps"


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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:18:09 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Stuck Sparge

Tidmarsh Major differed with Jeff Renner's definition of sparge, saying,

>Modern usage here (and I suspect elsewhere) makes sparge more or less
synonymous with lauter, with >sparge usu. a verb or noun ('stuck
sparge') and lauter usu. an adjective ('lauter tun.') 

Here in Africa the term would be "stuck mash" or "set mash". You might
get a stuck sparge arm - but I have never heard of a stuck sparge.

You sparge your mash with sparge liquor. You collect your run off/
runnings from your lauter tun. Sparge liquor becomes runnings after
percolating through the mash.

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg
[13 656 km; 125] 


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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:18:28 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject:  Beer miles

>For those of you in more urban settings where cops might be inclined to
jail 
>you, why not use one of those walking exercise treadmill thingies!

Bottle stout in a Coke bottle and off you go.

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg
[13 656 km; 125]


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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:09:50 +0200
From: Bjoern.Thegeby at cec.eu.int
Subject: Hashing and engineering

As a hasher of twenty years, I can seen one major problem in 
using hashing skills to solve Rennerian measurements. The 
basic assumption revolves around the concept of a straight 
line. I have never seen a hasher do anything in a straight 
line, much less so after the beer check. As the soul of 
hashing is shortcutting the trail, there is even an in-built 
bias against straight lines.

On another topic I just ordered my RIMS chamber. Unlike in the
States there are no stores or mailorder houses providing 
convenient parts and I was reduced to go to a local metal 
workshop, run by a friendly Arab. We agreed on a price (don't
ask) and I left him to do the job. When I came back, he had 
turned the whole chamber from one piece of stainless steel, 
painstakingly gutting it into a tube adding 2-inch BSP threads
on one side and, wonder upon wonders, from the same piece, turned
a half-inch nipple at the bottom to serve as a drain. This 
magnificent piece of overengineering will survive when cockroaches 
go extinct. The weight meant that I had to carry it cradled in my 
arms. My only problem was that it bore an uncanny resemblance 
to a Vickers machine gun and I had to carry it past the British
Embassy. Even this would have been easier, if I hadn't been given 
it in a gaudy plastic bas saying "Mohammed's groceries". Oh well,
I survived.

Bjorn Thegeby
Alright then: [81.8, 3987] Rennerian (but still five miles from Lembeek)



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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:32:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Rennerian Distance, Laval

Piggybacking on Jeff Renner's mention of my situation (Indiana email,
leaving in Montreal), I'd mention that I really value location sigs because
such situations are fairly common in this era of mobility.
In fact, I might even add that while I live in Montreal, I brew in Laval
(in the suburbs) where the water treatment is somewhat different. So, just
to make sure local brewers might notice, I've put this name in the tile.
But maybe Pat Babcock has a way to have Rennerians show up in the summary???

Now, because it's so much fun, a comment on measuring Rennerian distance.
To put pressure on Jeff Renner, we should, first of all, ask *him* to do
the measurements. If he's the focal point, he should also provide the unit
of reference. So, *he* should do the walking while drinking experiment.
The threadmill idea seems fairly good. In fact, we could use the calorie
information. How many miles does Jeff Renner have to do to burn the amount
of calories in his favorite beer? The best thing would be to have JR burn
as many calories as he drinks in the same amount of time. Otherwise we have
to take into account the format of the unit beer which could be 12oz.,
16oz., 20oz., 1 quart...
Until we get those measurements done, I'll stick to metric. ;-)

Alex, in Montreal
[893.3km, 62.8] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:21:21 -0500
From: Jason Mobley <jmobley at satx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: San Antonio


Welcome to SA.  The River Walk is a tourist trap....many of the resturants/bars
are no different than what you will find in any other US city (Hard Rock, Planet
Holleywood, etc,...).  HOWEVER, there is ONE great brewpub/resturant that has a
Real Ale and great food, it's called Blue Star Brewing.  It's not far from the
River Walk but you will need to take a cab because it is not within walking
distance.  When you get here, you can find the address in the phone book.

- --J

> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:51:58 -0400
> From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu>
> Subject: San Antonio?
>
> I'll be in San Antonio, TX Nov 28 - Dec 1.  From pubcrawler, it looks
> like the brewpub scene is pretty much not, with a single brewpub worth
> going to.  Any other recommendations?  I'll be staying near the River
> Walk, and won't have a car.
>
> =S



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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:39:35 -0600
From: "Joel Halpine" <jhalpine at esu4.org>
Subject: Rye pils update

I remember when I asked for advice in brewing with rye, someone asked me to
post the outcome of a rye pils I was planning.  Keep in mind that this is
coming from a guy regularly humbled by the intricate topics regularly
discussed
here.

5 gallons of a Rye Try:

6 lbs British Pale Ale
2 lbs flaked Rye
8 oz Crystal (40L)

1.5 oz Hallertauer Hersb. at boil
 .25 oz Hallertauer at last 15 min
 .25 oz Saaz at last 15 min
 .5 oz Saaz for last min

WLP German Lager (repitch--I think the 3rd recycling).

I igloo mash, so I followed the recommendation of using flaked rye.  Mashed
around 150 for about an 1.5 hrs, and then infused to 155 or so for another
30
or so min.  Stickiest mash I have ever encountered.  The iodine test didn't
change color, though there was that little reaction that reminds me of tiny
explosions--I am having problems getting that British malt to convert
completely.  Maybe I am not treating my water properly, or maybe I should
blend in a little American Pale.  I would like any thoughts on that topic.
I figured two hours mashing is enough, so I sparged patiently without probs.

Boiled about 70 min.

OG about 1.053
FG about 1.016 (or was it 17--can't recall without the log book)  wanted
about 1.012

First, let me say I do not like rye.  However, I really like it.  It has a
rye aroma.  I think the flavor is great.  I do not know how to define the
taste without the proper training in identifying flavors judges go
through--seems kinda spicy, crisp, almost citrus orange.  If I could, I
would like to lighten the color more just to fit a pils profile, but I do
not have access to lighter crystal.  I did have one taster say she would
prefer it with turkey and dumplings (which would be a great meal to it).  It
is hard to get others to be really critial--I think they are still afraid
they will hurt my feelings despite my pleadings for brutal assessment.

I would and will happily brew it again either as is, or try an ale yeast.
If I figure out how to drop my final gravity, I might lighten up on the
ingredients a touch to keep the alcohol around 5% (good for multiple
refills).

A side question:  Recent topics on the HBD include modified malts.  It seems
I recently saw something about  Weisseheimer (sp?) pils grain being
appropriate for brewing without the protein rest.  Many of you seem to have
access to updated data on modification of malts.  Where do you get that?
Also, until I manage that, what base grains should I use or avoid with my
brewing setup.  I have always avoided pils grains, as they seem to require
protein rests that my current set up doesn't allow.

Joel


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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:12:59 
From: "Bret Morrow" <bretmorrow at hotmail.com>
Subject: a modest proposal re: pumpkin

Greetings all,

The Jonathan Swift connection will be evident at the end of this post.

I was baking pumpkin cookies while thinking how the pumpkin could really goo 
up a mash & an idea came to me.  Why not do as the Sumarians did--make the 
pumpkin into a dry solid, then mash it.  Basically, you could take pumpkin 
and mix it with crushed grain (maybe crystal) and spices, form it into 
"cakes" on a cookie sheet and bake it until it is dry.  It should store for 
years!  Then you could crumble it into a regular mash (without the crystal 
malt).  This may prevent the mash from being stuck as easily.  Potentially 
it may add some nice flavours from the protein:carbohydtrate interactions.

(Now the Jon. Swift connection) I would try this and report to all, but I 
only like to drink English style ales and, therefore, have no desire to test 
this out.

Bret Morrow (90976216320 mm, 92.9 degrees)
Hamden, CT

PS what ever happened to the Sumarians?  I haven't seen them post@ HBD in 
years!



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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:18:19 -0500
From: "steve lane" <tbirdusa at hotmail.com>
Subject: topping up

I am an all grain brewer who typically ends up with a little too much wort 
after the boil for my 7 gallon primary fermenters.  Actually, it all fits 
into the primary's but when transferring to the secondaries, I always end up 
with an extra gallon or so.  Not a big problem as I then syphon the balance 
over to a gallon cider jug and air lock it.

Here is my problem, I have extract brewed the last two nights and have come 
up short on wort.  Higher gravity than expected and less volume than 
expected...I guess that correlation is to be expected :) I haven't topped 
off the fermenters and am thinking I had better do it now...  but then I am 
thinking I should wait and do it at the transfer to secondary.

Does it matter when I top off the fermenters?  I know I will have to pre 
boil and chill the top off water but when is the time to do this seeing as 
my fermenters are churning away?



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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:20:32 -0000
From: "Crouch, Kevin E" <Crouch.Kevin at emeryworld.com>
Subject: Airlocks

Phil Wrote:
>I could be way off the mark in my advice to Gary, but I strongly recommend
>to all brewers that you visually observe the goings on in your fermentation
>rather than the poot poot poot chuffing out of your airlock. Throw the 
>silly thing away!

Funny you should mention this Phil,  as I have had a similar experience
lately.  I bought one of those orange caps the other day and used it on my
latest ale and was very confused by the fact that I was at high krauesen and
the airlock was just barely buzzing.  I took a bit of glycerin and applied
it to the rim of my carboy and stuck the cap back on and it started bubbling
like mad.  I knew I had a good fermentation but I was puzzled by the airlock
activity.  Smart advice for sure, the krauesen, the vortex, and the visible
bubbles are a much more reliable indicator of fermentation vigor than an
airlock.

One question, however, about your advice to free ourselves from the
opression of the airlocks.  Airlocks were concieved not to monitor
fermentation, but to allow CO2 out,  without letting air in.  As soon as
fermentation slows and the positive pressure inside the fermentor falls,
how would one keep air out without an airlock?  

Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, WA


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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:18:32 
From: "chris eidson" <eidsonc at hotmail.com>
Subject: regarding fruit beers (raspberry, pomegranate)

In response to Stefan's post, I have found fruit added to the primary has 
most of the fruit flavor/aroma "scrubbed" out of the beer by the rigors of 
fermentation, with the finished product having a wine-like quality to it.  
Fruit added to the secondary seems to retain more of the fruit aroma and 
flavor but be prepared to add fairly large quantities, at least one pound 
per gallon if using fresh fruit.

In response to Alex's post, I have seen pomegranate extract/puree at several 
middle eastern grocery stores.  I don't know if it would be suitable to use 
or not, but it seems like a better alternative than grenadine syrup.  Just a 
suggestion.


Chris Eidson
Birmingham, AL



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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:22:09 -0500
From: stpats <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: UNC Chemists figure out what causes skunkiness

What isn't mentioned in the UNC press release is that one of the 
authors is a very recent convert to homebrewing.

My husband told me about this research a couple of years ago. I don't 
know anything about the chemistry but I gleaned the following facts 
from a more general article by  Denis De Keukeleire (de KIK ye lair 
ee) of Ghent University in Belgium.

Half the hops produced worldwide are extracted with CO2.  CO2 
extraction of hops is a bigger industry than decaffeination of coffee!

Most of us know that you only get 30% yield of potential hop 
bitterness using hop pellets or whole hops, even with 1-2 hour boil. 
The yield is 90% in hop extracts by a process developed by De 
Keukeleire.

The reference in the press release to Miller's use of hop products 
that don't result in "light struck" flavor is about the "advanced hop 
products" of which there are two types. One type of hop extract has 
same bitterness as usual hop extract but doesn't react even in clear 
bottles under sunlight. The other type is the one used at Miller. It 
does react but makes a compound that is tasteless. This hop extract 
is particularly appealing because it also has twice the bitterness of 
the usual hop extract.

The big point is that the hop extract used by Miller (and many others 
worldwide now) provides  6 times more bitterness/oz of hop cones than 
what we homebrewers use.

Just speculating, but I'm almost certain that these "no-boil" Munton 
& Fison extract kits, use the 90% isomerized hop extract, which is 
already isomerized, so it wouldn't require any boiling.

Factor in the trend toward less hop bitterness in beers worldwide as 
well as higher alpha varieties in production, and I think you get an 
idea about the plight of the hop growing industry.

Lynne O'Connor

- -- 
St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com


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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:22:59 -0500
From: stpats <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: San Antonio / Raspberry Juice

Spencer Thomas asks about beer places in San Antonio.

Blue Star Brewpub is excellent, both for beer and food. Bear in mind 
they are an account and the owners Joey and Maggie are good friends 
(we vacationed with them in Cuatro Cienegas this summer). Never the 
less, the pilsner is the closest thing you'll find to the "original 
Budweiser" outside Ceske Budejovice.  Dryhopped (EK Goldings) pale 
ale and barleywine are wonderful as well.  I eat the pork green chile 
almost every time I'm there, 3 or 4 nights a month  (180 miles round 
trip) . ..Beer battered onion rings, pizzas are very good.

Blue Star is on the edge of the King William district which is within 
walking distance of downtown although a cab is certainly easier.  The 
other brewpub The Laboratory, is northwest and was never very good 
although they are making better and more interesting beer now 
including a prickly pear beer.

I'd join Spencer for a beer but I'll be in Oporto sampling a few 
ports that week, as well as visiting cork groves.  How's that for 
one-upmanship?


Dennis Bekaert mentioned the Belgian raspberry juice. Please note it 
contains sugars so should be added during the secondary to let it 
ferment out before bottling/kegging.


Lynne O'Connor



- -- 
St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com


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---