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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: NPT Locknuts / RIMS control (Bill Tobler)
  When to adjunts to your beer (Bill Tobler)
  Re: Dunkel ("Braam Greyling")
  frozen liquid ale yeast? ("Gregor Zellmann")
  Hot break redissolves? (Dan Temple)
  Reasons to Boil ("Mark Tumarkin")
  more astringency problems (Andy Tina Madi Bailey)
  Recirculation ("Kirk Fleming")
  Re: skunky beer ("Chad Gould")
  long mash with declining temp profile ("Steven Parfitt")
  Re: Brewed and bottled....How long will it take? ("Chad Gould")
  RE:  Where to buy beer in Austin, TX? (Peter Torgrimson)
  To scoop or not ("Kim")
  Re: Brewed and bottled...how long will it take? (Kelly Grigg)
  Stuck fermentation (Brewmiker)
  Re: Rantings and Ravings (Jeff Renner)
  re: stuck ferment (Eric Miller)
  Mallory ("Bridges, Scott")
  Re: stuck ferment (Jeff Renner)
  Microwave Superheating (mohrstrom)
  priming/dunkel (Jim Busch)
  Munich Dunkles and toasted oats (Marc Sedam)
  Re: Dunkel (Jeff Renner)
  Monks Cry Fowl Over Risk to Beer Water (Bob Girolamo)
  Idaho clean (Calvin Perilloux)
  acetylene clarification (Rob Dewhirst)
  AFCHBC Call for Judges (Mark Alfaro)
  Pieces of my mind ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  One Step, OxyClean, etc. ("Eric R. Theiner")


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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:17:33 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <WCTobler at brazoria.net>
Subject: Re: NPT Locknuts / RIMS control

Drew,
    I'm in the process of rebuilding my electric kettle now.  The threads on
electric hot water elements are 1" NPS. (National Pipe Straight)  Get a
stainless Steel 1" coupling and have it tapped out to 1" NPS at a machine
shop, or you can buy a coupling from Moving Brews already tapped.
http://www.movingbrews.com/   If you don't tap it out, you have to use a
wrench all the time, which is a royal PITA.
My whole brewery is electric, with one element in the HLT and two in the
Kettle.  The new kettle will only have one 4500 watt with a controller I
have yet to make.  I tried the stove top type controller, and it did not
work very good.  The shortest off time was about 6 seconds, which is way too
long.   http://hbd.org/cdp/boilnew.htm   This is the web site of C.D
Pridchard, who built a pretty neat controller, which I am going to try and
copy, as soon as I find someone handy with printed circuit boards and a
soldering gun.  

I've got some pictures of the brewery, if your interested and a PDF drawing,
that's mostly complete.

Cheers

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:39:37 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <WCTobler at brazoria.net>
Subject: When to adjunts to your beer

I would, without a doubt, add the fly at the end of the boil with the
finishing hops.  This way he/she is fully sanitized and you get the full
flavor/impact of the little guy/gal.

Hmmm...This sounds like a "Fly By Night" operation to me......

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:14:25 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: Re: Dunkel

David Craft brewing CRAFT beer asked about a munich and dark 
malts...

> I am formulating a Dunkel recipe,  5 lbs Munich, 5 lbs Pilsner, .25 lb
> black, .5 lbs Chocolate, .5 lbs dextrine.  Question,  is this too much
> dark malt.  Should I eliminate the black?  I see many recipes with
> little or no dark malts, mostly all Munich. However the commerical
> example I have seen have enough dark malts to make them quite dark. 
> Debittered black malt? Any thoughts?

I would leave out the black malts. Rather have a 80% Munich , 
20 % Pils ratio. Also why add dextrine ? A Dunkel is a darkish 
lager with medium body. With the correct mashing schedule you 
should get the body correct. The Reinheitsgebot does not allow 
dextrine to be added. (I try to stick with the Reinheitsgebot when I 
brew German beers). Rather go for a decoction mash. It really 
makes a difference for a Munich Dunkel. 
If you are worried that you beer is not dark enough, you can add a 
little Caramunich malt like Weyermann's Caramunich II.  It will also 
help to get that melanoidins....  
Just make sure you dont add too much Caramunich. 

Read the following link, it is a BJCP descripotion of a Munich 
Dunkel. 
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/slack/bjcp/styleguide13.html    

Regards

Braam Greyling
Snr. Design Engineer
Azoteq(Pty)Ltd
Tel +27 21 8630033  Fax +27 21 8631512



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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:27:50 +0100
From: "Gregor Zellmann" <gregor at blinx.de>
Subject: frozen liquid ale yeast?

Fellow Brewers,

I brew all grain beers since a couple of years and every source of
information on brewing available to me (many, many books, HBD, r.c.b, you
name it) states that it is impossible to deep freeze any beer yeast. The
reason for this given is that ice crystals in the liquid medium destroy the
yeast cells and kill them. There are some sources that say you can deep
freeze yeast, if you store a few cells in glycerin, which will not freeze
and therefore not damage the cells...

Whatever. A friend who is not a brewer was helping and looking and tasting
as I brewed an IPA a month ago. He loves baking bread though. He asked, if I
could give him some beer yeast for his baking purposes. As I happened to
rack an ESB from primary into secondary fermenter, I gave him the yeast
dregs from the bottom of the primary.

This was quite a lot of yeast, so he told me, he would use a part of it
fresh the next day, but deep freeze the rest in portions for further
sessions. I told him, not to freeze it, as the yeasts would not survive
this. He didn't believe this, because, he did freeze baking yeast on many
occasions without any problems. I said to him that this attempt will develop
into a *stupid baking trick* (tm) and we parted.

Now the funny thing is, that this guy, just yesterday passed by and brought
me a loaf of wonderful bread, made with this deep frozen and re-thawed ale
yeast without adding any baking yeast. He also reported, that the
fermentation process, was as fast as with baking yeast.

Obviously a big part of the yeast cells survived the freezing. What does
that mean to us homebrewers? Can we do this too? It would certainly be
convenient, to have a quarter gallon of active or at least partly active
yeast slurry at hand for a high gravity ale or a lager. Or are those yeast
cells damaged anyway for brewing purposes and just manage to ferment some
dough for bread?

cheers

Gregor Zellmann
Berlin, Germany



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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 03:01:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Temple <danatemple at yahoo.com>
Subject: Hot break redissolves?

When I just got started brewing, I was told that I
should run the boiled wort into another container
where it should be chilled. The rationale was that the
Hot Break sludge would then be left in the kettle. If
I cooled in the kettle, the Hot Break would
immediately redissolve! I get beautifully clear beer
without using finings, and have never changed the
habit.

But: Looking at some systems e.g. Morebeer.com 's
brewing sculptures, I note that the cooling is done in
the kettle. So do I need to bother with the
extra transfer? I am loath to offer a batch to find
out - any tips?

Dan



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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:10:40 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Reasons to Boil

Henry asks:
"Is there a special reason for bringing wort to a boil, besides the hop
extraction, or will there be other, more sinister, effects of using microwaves
to do this (I'm just tired of being exiled to the garage during boils because
of the smell, then spending hours outdoors in cold weather)?"

The following reasons for boiling are from the BJCP study guide. You can look
on the web site for addtl info
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/slack/bjcp/study98.html


Boiling wort is normally required for the following reasons:

Extracts, isomerizes and dissolves the hop alpha-acids
Stops enzymatic activity
Kills bacteria, fungi, and wild yeast
Coagulates undesired proteins and polyphenols in the hot break
Stabilizes salts for correct boil pH
Evaporates undesirable harsh hop oils, sulfur compounds, ketones, and esters.
Promotes the formation of melanoidins and caramelizes some of the wort sugars
Evaporates water vapor, condensing the wort to the proper volume and gravity.
A minimum of a one hour boil is usually recommended for making quality beer.
When making all grain beer, a boil of 90 minutes is normal, with the bittering
hops added for the last hour. One exception to boiling was historically used
to brew the Berliner Weisse style. Here, the hops were added to the mash tun,
and the wort is cooled after sparging and then fermented with a combination of
lactobacillus from the malt and an ale yeast.

hope this helps,

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL







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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 06:23:59 -0700
From: Andy Tina Madi Bailey <atmbailey at home.com>
Subject: more astringency problems

I have now brewed 20 gallons of astringent/funky bitter beer. ;-(

The first batch (10 gallons) was over-sparged, I didn't think that the next
2( 5 gallon batches) batches were oversparged, but still the flavor remains.
Between the 1st and subsequent batches I installed a carbon water filter
inline under the sink which removes the noticable chlorine odor/taste. That
didn't make a difference.

I stopped the sparges of the last 2 batches when the gravity hit 1.010,
WITHOUT compensating for temperature, meaning the real gravity should have
been much higher since the wort was warm/hot. I am very frustrated!!

Could it be the sparge water ph? In the town that I live in (Rapid City,
SD), there is no way to get a complete water analysis. Even the municipal
water supply doesn't do any kind of mineral analysis, they only care about
the stuff that can kill you. Not knowing my calcium content, would it hurt
anything to add gypsum to the sparge water in an attempt to lower the ph? If
so, what would be a safe, yet effective amount?

If its not likely the water, what else, other than oversparging could be the
cause?

The grain I was using was from a 50# bag of Minnesota Maltings 2row that I
bought from a local microbrewery. That is now gone, and I am switching to
Pauls Pale ale malt. Could my original grain not have been the best and
cause the problem? Does the brand of grain dictate how much you can safely
sparge?

Do most people get enough wort (6-7 gallons from a roughly 10 # grain bill)
for a 5 gallon batch, or do you prematurely stop the sparge and water down
the wort prior to boiling?

I realise that I have posed numerous questions in my quest to get this
hammered out, but I need help. My wife is threatening to make me go back to
extract so I quit wasting money on ruined beer.

Pleas help!
Andy Bailey



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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 06:44:30 -0800
From: "Kirk Fleming" <kirkfleming at earthlink.net>
Subject: Recirculation

In 3851 "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com> asks about recirculating.
First, I hope that manifold is submerged during recirc. I would recommend
against letting the sweet wort sprinkle down onto the top of the mash, if
that's what's going on. I used a manifold built from 1/2 copper tubing--open
at the ends (H-shaped in plan view), so clogging is impossible.

As for the pump clogging--I found that occassionally I'd get better results
by not connecting the pump initiall--just let the wort drain thru the tubing
into a container, recirculating by hand a few times to set the bed. Then
plub the tubing into the pump and fire it up. I used fairly large pumps
(7/16" I/O), so it wasn't really a problem--mostly cosmetic.

Kirk Fleming
FRSE, FRSL



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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:55:50 -0500
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: skunky beer

> "Mechanism for Formation of the Lightstruck Flavor in Beer
> Revealed by Time-Resolved Electron Paramagnetic Resonance",
> Colin S. Burns, Arne Heyerick, Denis De Keukeleire,and
> Malcolm D. E. Forbes, Chemistry-A European Journal.

URL to the abstract:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/85514669/START

You can also get full access to the article here:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/issuetoc?ID=85514666 if you are a
member of Wiley Interscience.






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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:58:23 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: long mash with declining temp profile

Which is a nice way fo saying start the mash in the morning an go to work, 
and don't sparge till late that evening.

I mostly do Ales, and am on my second batch this way (Boddington clone from 
Zymurgy). I put the water on to heat while I S___, Shower, and Shave. Once 
I'm dressed, the strike water is ready, and I add it to the grain which was 
loaded in the tun the nite before.

This gives me a rest starting at 153, and dropping 3F/Hr. By the time I'm 
home, it is down in the low 120F range. While making dinner, I boil water to 
add to boost to mashout, and sparge. These and the boil are done after 
dinner.

Will this (the declining temperature profile) have any negative effects on 
the end product?

Thanks.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery,
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian
http://www.thegimp.8k.com
"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:01:03 -0500
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Brewed and bottled....How long will it take?

> OK. I just bottled my first home brew! Its a Nut brown ale.

Neat. (I have a brown ale bubbling away right now in fact.)

> How long do I
> need to let it sit in the bottles before its ready to drink?

The minimum is typically 10-14 days for decent carbonation. They'll be good
to drink then. But... So far, with the beers my friend and I have done so
far, we've found that they'll still taste a tad "green" after two weeks. At
about 4 weeks after bottling, the beers seem to taste best.




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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:19:05 -0600
From: Peter Torgrimson <petertorgrimson at prodigy.net>
Subject: RE:  Where to buy beer in Austin, TX?

H. Dowda <hdowda at yahoo.com> asks where to buy beer in Austin.

The best place I have found is Whip In, 1950 S Interstate 35 (actually
on the southbound frontage road).  It doesn't look like much (a
convenience store) but they have a pretty good selection.  It is not
downtown, but not that far.  You can take the freeway frontage road
across the river and continue on the frontage road to the store.

Closer to downtown is Whole Foods at 6th and Lamar, just west of
downtown.  I have not been to this particular store, but Whole Foods
stores usually have a reasonable selection, but not as good as Whip In.

Peter Torgrimson
Austin, TX





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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:48:12 -0600
From: "Kim" <kim at nconnect.net>
Subject: To scoop or not

Several members have commented on whether or not to skim the scud when
boiling. I favor that practice so it will not adversely affect the
flavor. I guess I picked it up from my cooking experience. Auguste
Escoffier, French master chef, would not only skim when making his
stocks, but would also change pans after the foaming subsided. He was on
one end of the flavor pole whereas I am not quite that fanatical.



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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:10:18 -0600
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: Re: Brewed and bottled...how long will it take?

Howdy.
I usually can only make myself wait about 1.5 weeks before I try the first one
but, I don't think you can go wrong with waiting 2 weeks.

Kelly

On Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 12:16:52AM -0500, after pounding the keys randomly, 
Tray Bourgoyne came up with....
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:57:56 -0600
> From: "Tray Bourgoyne" <tray at netdoor.com>
> Subject: Brewed and bottled....How long will it take?
> 
> OK. I just bottled my first home brew! Its a Nut brown ale. How long do I
> need to let it sit in the bottles before its ready to drink?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tray
>
- ------------------
No more Outlook....
Proudly using Mutt on Linux
- ------------------


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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:11:04 EST
From: Brewmiker at aol.com
Subject: Stuck fermentation

Greetings all,

Al Beers writes

From: Al Beers <beersal at yahoo.com>
Subject: stuck ferment

Hi all, 
Brewed a robust porter a week ago ( extract/steeped
grain, WLP002 ). OG was 1.056, bubbling nicely after 6
hrs. Racked to secondary 6 days later, gravity of
1.020, tasted fantastic! Now it sits in the secondary
flat, no activity. A wee bit of pressure in the
airlock, but very little bubbling. Rousing the carboy
doesn't help either. 

I also had a similar problem with a barley wine I'm currently building. OG 
was 1.110 and after racking into secondary, tasted great at 1.050. Then 
nothing for two weeks!
I added a packet of dry champagne yeast and some yeast energizer at 1/4 
teaspoon per gallon of beer. Three days later we have fermentation! A fellow 
who brewed the same recipe told me he reached 1.010 with the same technique, 
so I am optimistic.
Also on another thread, I have been using one of the nylon strap, carboy 
slings mentioned in another posting, and like it alot. Cheap and easy to use 
(NAYYY).
(Hope I followed protocols correctly, Pat :-))
Mike ,at the joint of Michigan's Thumb.
Lapeer, MI


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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:17:48 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Rantings and Ravings

"Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com> asks from Bellville, TX

>What do you do to prevent excessive grains and
>husks from going through the recirculation system?  Do you start the
>pump right after dough-in, or is there some secret I have not
>uncovered?  I suppose I could drain liquid from the mash tun until the
>runnings are clear (like I used to), but surely there is a high tech
>solution to go along with this high tech recirculation thingy.

I hate to ask the obvious, but you do have a false bottom, EZ-Masher 
or manifold or something like that to hold the grain back, right?

I have a slotted false bottom and a few mash particles get through, 
but not a lot as a rule.  But then I don't use a delivery manifold 
(or a whirly-gig, either).  I just run the ss braided hose from the 
pump on top of the grain bed (under about 1-2 inches of liquid) and 
have no trouble.  I generally don't run the pump when I'm not heating 
or recirculating for clarity (vorlauf) at the end of the mash.

Maybe you need to make bigger holes in the manifold.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:49:11 -0500
From: Eric Miller <ac051 at osfn.org>
Subject: re: stuck ferment

Al Beers <beersal at yahoo.com> asks about his 1.056 WLP002
extract/steeped grain porter's finishing gravity of 1.020 in #3851.

Al, I don't think you should bother pitching more yeast.  65%
attenuation is low, but not so low that I'd be concerned about it. 

http://smurman.best.vwh.net/zymurgy/white_labs.html suggests that the
yeast you used might be from Fuller's.  While I have never used WLP002,
I have used lots of Wyeast 1968, which is also supposed to be the
Fuller's yeast.  It's a rapid fermenter and a quick flocculator.

I have 10 gallons of porter fermenting right now, 5 gallons with Wyeast
1968, 5 gallons with WLP008.  The yeast cakes were repitched from a
split 6 gallon batch of bitter.  The White Labs 008 yeast raised a
huge kraeusen head that didn't fall for two weeks.  The Wyeast 1968's
kraeusen was never more than 1" thick and fell after just a couple of
days.  I roused the yeast by swirling the carboy a bit every day or two
for a week.  Both yeasts attenuated the 1.039 wort to 1.008.

As for suggestions, I think you should bottle or keg your current batch
now (if it's the same yeast as Wyeast 1968, it's probably crystal clear
and doesn't need a secondary to drop yeast out of suspension).  Also,
you should brew another batch and pitch it with that nice big yeast
cake from your porter.  Remember to aerate well and rouse the yeast
frequently after the kraeusen falls.

This yeast requires a bit more attention than others, but it's one of
my favorites for brewing British ales.

- -- 
Eric Miller
Holliston, MA
Down a bit and off to the right of Jeff


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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:27:32 -0500
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: Mallory


This is really getting off topic but....  Peter Ensminger notes that even
with the demise of BT, Mallory's personal assets are protected, as "any good
accountant will shield a client's personal assets from business assets".  I
never met Mr. Mallory, have no idea of his personal situation, nor do I even
have a dog in this fight.  I would add that I do have personal experience
with small business. I would put a caveat on Mr. Ensminger's statement to
say that it is true largely only if you do not need to obtain financing for
your business which is probably rare.  My experience for a small business is
that frequently a "personal" guarantee is required by banks, lessors, etc
for a small business with little or no assets.  This defeats the purpose of
incorporation as far as asset protection goes, but is sometimes required to
get in the game for this very reason.  It comes down to the point of
deciding whether to take a personal risk to start/expand your business.
Many people take this risk - some are successful, and some lose their shirts
along with their businesses.      




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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:27:38 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: stuck ferment

Al Beers <beersal at yahoo.com> writes from Mt. Clemens, MI

>Brewed a robust porter a week ago ( extract/steeped
>grain, WLP002 ). OG was 1.056, bubbling nicely after 6
>hrs. Racked to secondary 6 days later, gravity of
>1.020, tasted fantastic! Now it sits in the secondary
>flat, no activity. A wee bit of pressure in the
>airlock, but very little bubbling. Rousing the carboy
>doesn't help either. Should I pitch some more yeast??
>I was thinking of getting some more yeast, making a
>starter and using a small portion to "wake up" this
>porter, and step up the remaining in the starter and
>brew another porter or stout. Any suggestions?

This is a common problem, and you should probably just prime it and 
bottle it.  Then make sure to monitor the pressure in case you do 
wake it up and you begin to get bottle bombs.

But some malt extracts (Laaglander, especially) don't ferment out as 
fully as others (what did you use?), and dark grains and crystal may 
be less fermentable than pale malts.  64% apparent attenuation may be 
as far as you are going to get.  You'll note that it is within the 
range of 63-70% that White Labs says is to be expected for WLP002 
http://www.whitelabs.com/.

Next time, you may want to pitch the yeast into a liter of 1.025 wort 
the day before and be extra diligent to aerate well.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:53:09 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Microwave Superheating

Daniel Chisholm warns:
> An interesting thing about boiling in a microwave
> oven - since the heating is extremely gentle and
> uniform, it is possible to superheat the liquid
> (... when it does boil, it can be fairly violent ...
> I have not yet figured out a solution to this.

Did this myself not too long ago, having forgotten about the phenomenon.
It is especially violent when using an Erlenmeyer flask, because the
bubblin' crude is forced up through an ever decreasing volume ...

After that incident, I whomp the side of the microwaver with the palm of my
hand to jar the liquid out of its superheated state.  I do this repeatedly
until the contents begin to boil.  I don't know what you'd do with a
built-in.  Try banging the cupboard doors ...


Mark in Kalamazoo




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Date: Tue, Jan 29 2002 10:59:52 GMT-0500
From: Jim Busch <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: priming/dunkel

for strong bottle conditioned beers.... I like to add
about a tablespoon of thick slurry yeast with about
1/2 cup priming sugar per 5 gallons. Mix well 
before bottling. This works very good for Belgian 
Tripels, you might want to reduce the priming sugar 
for normal beers where the CO2 volumes are closer to 
2.4. You can also grow up about 500 ml of yeast 
starter, decant when done and use the sediment for repitching. 
Repitching is very important for beers above 7%.

<I am formulating a Dunkel recipe, 5 lbs Munich, 
5 lbs <Pilsner, .25 lb
<black, .5 lbs Chocolate, .5 lbs dextrine.

Id lose the pils, choco, dextrine and use all 
Munich malt, decoct and add dehusked carfa to the 
lauter tun. Keep the hopping below 20 BUs too of 
Hallertau. Dunkles are not as dark as many think.

Im proud of my experience working with BT, Stephen 
and Deb. I cant believe some of the attitudes I 
read here about being deceitful and underhanded. 

Prost!

Jim Busch



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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:40:32 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Munich Dunkles and toasted oats

David Craft writes...

**I am formulating a Dunkel recipe,  5 lbs Munich, 5 lbs
Pilsner, .25 lb
black, .5 lbs Chocolate, .5 lbs dextrine.  Question,  is
this too much dark
malt.  Should I eliminate the black?  **

Hmmm.  I think here you get a question about personal
preference.  When making a dunkles I'm generally aiming for
the flavor of fresh Ayinger Dunkles which can only be
described as "liquid bread crust".  As such I'd kill the
chocolate malt altogether, maybe adding just a pinch (2oz)
of black malt for color.  I would also bump the Munich to
75% (or even 100%) of the grist...it ain't called Munich
malt for nothin! ;-)  Lastly, my experience with large
percentages of Munich in the grist is that plenty of
unfermentable sugars are left over, making the dextrine malt
unnecessary.  YMMV.    Hope this helps.  Ignore as you see
fit.


I can also highly, HIGHLY recommend toasting oats for
brewing.  The last mild I made had 1.5lbs of oats in it.  I
wanted toasty, so I kept them in the oven until they turned
a carmel color and smelled like oatmeal cookies.  Gave a
wonderful bready aroma and flavor to the final product.
Considering how little there is to work with in a mild, I
was pretty happy with it.

Cheers!
- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:21:40 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Dunkel

"David Craft" <David-Craft at craftinsurance.com> writes from Greensboro, NC

>I am formulating a Dunkel recipe,  5 lbs Munich, 5 lbs Pilsner, .25 lb
>black, .5 lbs Chocolate, .5 lbs dextrine.  Question,  is this too much dark
>malt.  Should I eliminate the black?  I see many recipes with little or no
>dark malts, mostly all Munich. However the commerical example I have seen
>have enough dark malts to make them quite dark.  Debittered black malt? Any
>thoughts?

Munich Dunkel is a favorite of mine, and one that I make with 100% 
dark Munich malt or a combination of regular Munich and other malts, 
but only a touch of dark malts.  I consider black malt absolutely out 
of place if it is detectable (and I have a sensitive palate to it). 
A little chocolate is fine.  It doesn't have to be all that dark.

Schwartzbier is a related style with dark malt - in this case, it 
should be debittered chocolate or black malt such as Weyermann's 
Carafa.

Here's what the (1999) BJCP Style Guidelines say about the two styles 
(irrelevant parts edited out):

///////

13A. Munich Dunkel
Aroma: Munich malt aroma, with sweetish notes or hints of chocolate 
and toffee also acceptable. ...

Appearance: Medium amber to dark brown, often with a red or garnet 
tint. Creamy light tan head, clear.

Flavor: Dominated by the rich and complex flavor of Munich malt.  May 
be slightly sweet from residual extract, but should not have a 
pronounced crystal or caramel malt flavor.  Burnt or bitter flavors 
from roasted malts should not be perceived. ...

Overall Impression: Characterized by depth and complexity of Munich 
malt and the accompanying melanoidins.
 ...
Ingredients: Grist is primarily made up of German Munich malts, up to 
100% in some cases or supplemented with German Pilsner malt.  Small 
amounts of crystal malt can add to the malt complexity but should not 
compete with the Munich malt. Very slight additions of roasted malts 
may be used to improve color but should not add any flavor.

13B. Schwarzbier (Black Beer)
Aroma: Primarily malty, with low aromatic sweetness and/or hints of 
roast malt often apparent.  Low hop aroma may be perceived. No fruity 
esters or diacetyl.
Flavor: Rich, full malt flavor balanced by moderate bitterness from 
both hops and roasted malt, providing a bitter-chocolate palate 
without being particularly dry.  Low hop flavor and some residual 
sweetness are acceptable.  Aftertaste tends to dry out slowly and 
linger, featuring hop bitterness with a complementary subtle 
roastiness in the background.  No fruity esters or diacetyl.
 ...
Overall Impression: A beer that balances rich dark malt flavors with 
a perceptible bitterness from hops and roasted malts.
 ...
Comments: In comparison with a Munich Dunkel, usually darker in 
color, drier on the palate and with a noticeable (but not high) 
roasted malt edge to balance the malt base.
Ingredients: German Munich malt and Pilsner malts for the base, 
supplemented by a small amount of roasted malts for the dark color 
and subtle roast flavors.

///////

Jay Hersh wrote a good article in Brewing Techniques (vol. 4, no. 1, 
Jan/Feb 1996), but it doesn't appear to be online.  As a matter of 
fact, it doesn't show up in a search.

Hope this helps.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:59:35 -0800
From: Bob Girolamo <bob-girolamo at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Monks Cry Fowl Over Risk to Beer Water

  January 29, 2002 8:19 am EST 

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - A monastery that has brewed one of Belgium's most
famous beers for the past 400 years is worried that the spring water
used in its ales is in danger of being polluted by droppings from a
nearby poultry farm.
Monks at Saint-Remy monastery in Rochefort, southern Belgium, which
produces
the red, white and green capped Rochefort beers, have asked Liege
University to study the permeability of the land around the monastery.
The monks are concerned that plans to expand the poultry farm will lead
to extra droppings that will pollute the precious spring water.
Records show that the monastery had a brewery as far back as 1595, when
barley and hops were grown in the grounds.
But, as every beer lover knows, the secret is in the purity of the
water.
"We're afraid the quality of the water will change," said a spokesman
for the 16 monks who continue to brew the famous Rochefort trappist
beers.
Since plans for the bigger poultry farm were drawn up, the council has
received about 100 complaints from local residents concerned about
possible damage to the environment.


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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:10:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idaho clean

Dave Edmondson reports:
>> I am using Idaho for the stainless steel.

Interesting.  I had a fleeting image of someone wiping down
their keg with the slick half of a freshly sliced Idaho potato.
Use the skin-covered side for tough spots that need abrasive 
cleaning.  Pray tell, will this be a new and inexpensive option 
for cleaning our stainless equipment?    :-)

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA



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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:00:16 -0600
From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: acetylene clarification

As someone pointed out to me off list, acetylene gas is not named for 
acetone. My bad.  My experience is from safety warnings and use, not chemistry.

Nevertheless, welding "acetylene" IS acetylene gas and acetone.

In a perfect world, you never get acetone in large quantities through the 
regulator, but nobody's perfect, and the regulator in question was from a 
guy's garage of all places.

More to the point, there are alternative and possibly unsafe acetylene 
substitutes used in metalworking (that use the same regulators and hoses) 
that may have been used with this equipment.



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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:11:37 -0800
From: Mark Alfaro <malfaro at qcpi.com>
Subject: AFCHBC Call for Judges

CALL FOR JUDGES !
9th Annual America's Finest City Homebrew Competition
San Diego, CA - Friday, March 1st and Saturday, March 2nd 2002
Hosted by QUAFF

Friday session will include dinner, Saturday will include a light breakfast
and lunch.
This contest is registered with the BJCP and AHA.

Also, mark down April 19 and 20 and April 26 and 27 for judging in the
first round regionals of the AHA's
National Homebrew Competition.  A separate request for judges and stewards
will be coming out for that event.

Register to judge or steward on-line at http://www.softbrew.com/afchbc/ .
This site also has information on entering the contest.
   Directions and further information will be mailed to registered judges in
the next couple of weeks.



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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:00:39 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Pieces of my mind

I guess it's as good a subject line as any because there's too many
different subjects in my post.  No.  I will not be berating anyone... sorry.

Heater elements:
I remember seeing bulkhead fittings for them someplace (either in Home Depot
or McMaster-Carr).  You drill a hole and then bolt a plate to the wall of
the vessel along with a rubber gasket stuck in between.  I guess you have to
drill 4 holes for the bolts as well and might as well get stainless bolts
while you're at it.  The heater element screws into a threaded nipple on the
plate.  I think it is used to either add a second element to an electric
heater or to replace an existing one with a matching port.  I believe that
they were for 1" dia. elements.  Either way, it's another possibility.  

Using Oxiclean:
There's very little info regarding the ingredients for Oxiclean.  That
aside, I'm assuming in the least that a peroxygen cleanser and a hydrated
builder are used.  Beyond that, it's anyone's guess.  Being curious, I
looked up the patent for PBW.  It gives basic information as to the
formulation however, it is not a recipe.  It was a learning experience for
me as to what goes into these things.  I've never read such a seemingly
boring document with such intense interest!  At the least, PBW contains a
peroxygen compound to release oxygen and break down the foreign buildup; a
chelate to bind dissolved metal which might neutralize the oxygen action; a
metasilicate and builder which work together to raise the pH to 9 -12 in
order to peptize or emulsify proteins and fat without the hazards of a
caustic compound; a surfactant to enhance wettability, emulsification or
dispersal.  If you want to know more, search and read the patent yourself.
It's public information.

If anyone has a patent number for Oxiclean, I'd appreciate it.  Or is it
pat. pending?  Please e-mail me privately.  I'd like to compare the two and
see where they are similar.  I am guessing, right off the bat, that Oxiclean
is not as alkaline as PBW and it may contain surfactants which may not be as
easy to rinse out as in PBW.  While I could probably come close to
formulating my own PBW/Oxiclean-type cleaner for only a few cents per ounce,
why mess with a good thing?  PBW  is tweaked especially for my purposes and
I'd have to experiment up and down with a number of formulations until I got
it right.  Sounded like fun, but I'll leave it up to the pros ;-)

Indoor automated brewing:
C02/C0 and explosive propane leak warnings aside, can anyone tell me if they
brew indoors using natural gas or propane?  I don't feel like killing
myself, so I'll go with adequate ventilation using a blower and keep my 20#
LPG tank outside.  But I cannot keep thinking that it is much easier for me
to brew in the basement... out of the cold... out of the rain... running
water on hand... no spotlights when it gets dark... Does anyone do this?
Private e-mail me if you do to avoid the ramblings of the Digest safety
monitors!

On Sanitizing:
While Charlie P. might get a bad rap from some, I firmly believe in his
worn-out "Don't worry... yadayadayada" stance.  If what you are using now
works fine for you, keep on doing it.  *IF* you encounter a problem, then
you might want to consider some of the other options presented.  If your
brew tastes fine, then have another one and don't worry about if there's
something you're missing.  You're probably not.

Promash in Linux:
Has anyone gotten Promash to work in Linux wing WINE?  I keep getting "File
not found errors".  Do I need to configure anything special?   Promash is
the only program forcing me forcing me to dual boot Windows and Linux on my
PC.  I refuse to give up my Promash!

Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen A. Pannicke

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal




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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:01:56 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: One Step, OxyClean, etc.

I had originally intended to simply not weigh in on this subject, but after 
receiving a message from a retailer directing my attention to the past 
discussion, I realized I had an obligation to the people stocking my products.

First and foremost, a note to the brewer who lost a pot to OxyClean-- check 
the construction material of the pot.  OxyClean is indeed a bleaching agent 
(albeit an oxygen bleach), but it is not as aggressive against stainless as 
chlorine can be.  If your pot blackened, I'd be inclined to believe that 
the pot was either a very cheap stainless, or, more likely, 
aluminum.  Either way, I'd check to see if white vinegar or lemon juice 
would remove the blackened layer.

Secondly, OxyClean is similar to One Step, but does not have the buffering 
salts that One Step has.  OxyClean is stronger as a bleaching agent.

Before I address the issue of sanitizing, let me explain that LOGIC, Inc. 
(my company) puts out two products.  Straight-A is a strong cleanser.  It 
is comparable to Five Star's PBW (although their website had it wrong a 
while back-- they listed One Step as being comparable to PBW).  If you have 
metals to clean, Straight-A would be the best choice because of the 
presence of alkaline silicates which will protect the metal during the 
cleaning process.  Use Straight-A as a general purpose cleanser to clean up 
fermenters, brewpots, etc.

If you have been disappointed by the performance of One Step as a 
substitute for an alkaline cleaner, I am not surprised.  One Step was 
developed for light soils, and as a final rinse it was intended to come 
into contact with little to no soils.  The presence of soils will 
compromise the effectiveness of almost all sanitizers out there.

Finally, before I end this missive and post a new one (which was first used 
to address the sanitizing issue a few years ago in rec.crafts.brewing), I'd 
like to explain how these cleansers came to be and why they're 
available.  I've been developing hard surface cleansers and sanitizers for 
over 11 years.  Most of this is done in my "day-job" for a company that 
provides chemicals and equipment to restaurants and 
industrial/institutional kitchens.  Chances are, if you eat out regularly 
(on a place that uses re-washable plates, etc.), you have eaten off of a 
plate washed by one of my detergents or rinsed with one of my rinse 
aids.  If you live in the south, it's almost certain.  I developed 
Straight-A shortly after I started brewing because at the time there was 
only one other specific detergent available (B-Brite, and it left me very 
unimpressed).

I didn't develop Straight-A to become rich.  I think the consensus is that 
anyone who actually makes a *living* via the homebrewing community is very 
lucky.  The performance of the product was enough to get it noticed by LD 
Carlson, the largest homebrewing distributor in  the U.S.  They came to me 
and asked if we could work together to get the product distributed across 
the nation.  They also asked if I could provide a no-rinse sanitizer 
because the biggest new thing coming on the scene was iodophor.  (I spent a 
good bit of time in the lab on that one.)  Finally I told them that I could 
not provide them with a "sanitizer" because of the constraints of the EPA, 
but that I could provide a "final rinse" product which would ensure the 
margin of cleanliness produced by cleaning.

The bottom line for One Step is to use it if it provides good results.  I 
have a wall full of ribbons and am myself a certified judge versed in 
detecting infected notes.  I'll let that stand on it's own.

Rick Theiner
President
LOGIC, Inc.





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---