HOMEBREW Digest #3865 Thu 14 February 2002

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  RE:  Suckback in Secondary (Bill Tobler)
  MY Web Site (Ken Schwartz)
  RIMS PIDs and SSRs ("Larry Maxwell")
  Re: Salvaging Flat Beer ("Larry Bristol")
  Re: 10 gal soda keg modification help ("Mike Pensinger")
  True Alchemy: Lead ==> Gold? No, Dirt ==> Beer ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Palm databases (carlos benitez)
  Gott cooler/plastic mash tun/lauter tun ("Milone, Gilbert")
  fermentation science (Rudi Wehmschulte)
  dip stick ("Spinelli, Mike")
  homebrew class ("Joseph Marsh")
  RE: The O-word (Brian Lundeen)
  Fermenter QD boiling (David Passaretti)
  RE: Airlocks suck! (Brian Lundeen)
  Kettles and Thermometers ("David Hooper")
  Airlock Sucks (Richard Foote)
  RE: 10 gal soda keg modification help (Ronald La Borde)
  brief...off topic question (darrell.leavitt)
  Re: Harvesting barley ("Todd Tilton")
  Sour Beer (Mark Lazzaretto)
  Beating the Bazooka Screen horse ("Rich Medina")
  Louis Pasteur (Pat Casey)
  RE: The O-word (Brad McMahon)
  Harversting barley (Al Klein)
  Dubbel suggestions (Kevin Elsken)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:21:58 -0600 From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net> Subject: RE: Suckback in Secondary Bob Shaffer-Neitz asks: What I don't know is why my secondary is sucking back water out of the airlock. Any ideas? Bob, I have always heard of this problem, but have never had it myself. The major cause of suck back would be a significant temperature change in the beer. So unless you beer is getting warn in the day, and cold at night, I don't see how this can happen. I had an air lock that kept going dry on me once, and finally found a hairline crack where the stem meets the body. One drip at a time, and it would empty in 2 or 3 days. You couldn't even see it, unless you put it up to your nose and put some pressure on it with your hands. Hope this helps. Bill Tobler Lake Jackson, TX (1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:03:10 -0700 From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com> Subject: MY Web Site Tony Barnsley asked for my website URL... Quick HULLO to HBD land...! - -- ***** Ken Schwartz El Paso, TX Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer Fermentation Chillers and More at The Gadget Store: http://www.gadgetstore.bigstep.com E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:34:05 -0500 From: "Larry Maxwell" <larrymax at bellsouth.net> Subject: RIMS PIDs and SSRs I recently bought a PID controller with a solid-state relay (SSR) output from Omega Eng'g, but failed to read the spec sheet closely enough, which noted that the SSR handles only 1A max. I am guessing what I need is another (external) SSR that handles 20A or so to control my 1500 W heater element (at 120 V). Is this correct? In other words, do I use the output of the internal SSR to control the external SSR? Seems logical, but before I buy one I wanted to ask those in the know. Larry Atlanta Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:34:21 -0600 From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com> Subject: Re: Salvaging Flat Beer On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:16:16 -0500, "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com> pondered: >...<snip>... >My wife came up with an idea to remedy this that I want to run past you all. I >have the 2 liter PET bottle Carbonator cap & a small CO2 canister. Her idea >was to open the flat beer, pour it into a small water bottle with the same >sized cap & use the Carbonator to carbonate it. This would only be done >immediately before drinking it. Would this work, or would oxidation set in >too fast? I figured I'd have the bottle in the frig so more CO2 could be >disolved into solution, but it might also take some shaking too. Kiss your wife and tell her she is a genius. This is the perfect solution to your (current) dilemma. Those carbonator caps (YABADABADO) are useful not only for maintaining CO2 equilibrium while transporting a small quantity of kegged beer, but for doing forced carbonation as well. Personally, I would not bother fooling around with the smaller (single serving) water bottles. Use a 2 liter bottle and open as many beer bottles as you need to fill 'er up! Cool the bottled beer to your desired serving temperature to help the CO2 dissolve, and yes, it will require shaking to get it carbonated quickly. Put on the carbonator cap, apply CO2 pressure, put on some music, and caress the bottles while you dance a jig or the twist or do whatever else you can think of to get the beer all shook up. It will hopefully be ready to drink by the time you get hot and thirsty. There will be no problem from oxidation if the beer is consumed immediately (or even within a couple of days). >I've consistantly had a problem with my bottled beer not carbonating. It >could be because I leave it in secondary too long & there's not enough >yeast, or because I don't keep my house warm enough for the yeast to work. >What ever the case, I now have 4 cases of good tasting, but flat beer. I am more concerned about THIS dilemma. Yeast should remain viable sitting in beer within a secondary fermenter for a long, long time. Even though it may look like all of the yeast has settled to the bottom, there is still enough floating around to carbonate the beer. Unless you keep your house around 40F or lower, ale yeast will still do its job, just slower. So I doubt any of these things are the problem. The most likely cause is that there is simply not enough fermentable sugar in the bottles. You do not say how you bottle the beer, so I will assume nothing. You probably already know all of this (so forgive me), but since you say the problem is consistent, there may be something subtle that is getting overlooked. You need to have some fermentable sugars in the beer when you bottle it so that the yeast will have something to eat (and make CO2 from). The beer in your secondary after fermentation has completed probably has little (if any) fermentable sugars. You fix this by priming the beer, which is simply adding some sugar at bottling time. It is a good idea to take a hydrometer reading before bottling so that you know the beer has in fact actually reached its final gravity. [I have not bottled in a long time, so if I say something way off base, I presume someone will gently correct me.] What I (used to) do is syphon the beer from my secondary into a holding vessel (such as the primary fermenter) to remove the trub on the bottom of the fermenter. Dissolve about 3/4 cup of corn sweetener in a cup of water, mix it thoroughly in the beer, then bottle normally. Try not to splash the beer around very much during all this because you want to dissolve as little oxygen as possible. Put the bottles in a cool, dark place and let them sit for about 2 weeks. I have seen some brewing instructions that suggest you put a measured amount of sugar into each bottle, rather than going through the extra racking process above. I do not agree with this technique. Since it is nearly impossible to get an accurate measurement of such a small amount of sugar, and difficult to get the sugar into the bottle without spilling a bit, this technique tends to make the carbonation levels in the bottles quite variable. The better technique produces a consistent carbonation level in every bottle of the batch. Also note that there are alternatives to corn sweetener, such as brewery grade corn syrup, honey, and even malt extract. Personally, because the quantities are so small, it is doubtful whether there is any real difference among them. [I now expect to hear from those that disagree.] OTOH, I do not recommend using ordinary table sugar. Feel free to experiment! Larry Bristol Bellville, TX http://www.doubleluck.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:49:20 -0500 From: "Mike Pensinger" <Beermkr at bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: 10 gal soda keg modification help I ferment in a 13.2 gallon keg with the top cut out. The sanitation scheme I have worked out involves directing the outflow from my imersion chiller into the keg. I use about 15 Gallons of water to chill my 10.5 gallon batch and as soon as I have a gallon or so I put some Iodophor in the fermenter and let it over flow at the end. I figure the entire inside gets a good 20 minutes of exposure to hot Iodophor. Works for me anyway. Mike Pensinger beermkr at bellatlantic.net http://members.bellatlantic.net/~beermkr/ Norfolk Virginia - [551.4, 132.9] Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:04:22 -0500 From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu> Subject: True Alchemy: Lead ==> Gold? No, Dirt ==> Beer Regarding typical 2 row spring barley yields per acre: http://www.uidaho.edu/cereals/nidaho/sb99.htm This shows an average yield of 88 bu/acre at an average of 69 lb/bu, so average of 6072 lb/acre of barley. However, I think this is higher than what a backyard grower/maltster/brewer might see, though. I wouldn't expect more than 1 ton/acre yield, or about 4 lb barley per 100 ft^2. IOW, to end up with a 50 lb bag of malt (why would you bother for any smaller amount?) you'd have to plant about 1200 ft^2, an area 40x30 ft. This assumes you can grow small areas of barley like this with good results around the edge of the planting. Anyone that's grown sweet corn, for instance, knows that the rows around the edges don't do very well compared to the interior of the field. That said, someone with that kind of time and energy could cut this area by hand with a scythe (or weed-wacker?), and thresh by hand, beating the hell out of it on a paved surface, I suppose. Please, please, please post an .avi of this process if anyone attempts it. I'd love to see someone threshing barley by hand in their driveway, beer in hand! Todd Snyder Williamsville, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:45:51 -0800 (PST) From: carlos benitez <greenmonsterbrewing at yahoo.com> Subject: Palm databases Hello All! This is mainly for the gadgetheads out there - I recently made a database of Wyeast products for my palm pilot. this includes the Wyeast #, name, Optimum fermentation temp., apparent attenuation, and a short description of the product. This is in an MDB format and requires either MDB (mobile data-base) OR MDB-LITE to read on the Palm. Any mistakes or misquotes are mine not Wyeast's. When I get the time, I plan to do hops and malts as well. Anyone interested in this is welcome to a copy (free!) just drop me a personal email and I will zip it to you (I don't have my own web-site) Alternatively if someone would like to add it their web site for downloads that is OK too. ===== BIBIDI ! Brew It Bottle It Drink It Carlos Benitez - Green Monster Brewing Bainbridge, PA, U.S.A. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:09:06 -0500 From: "Milone, Gilbert" <gilbert.milone at uconn.edu> Subject: Gott cooler/plastic mash tun/lauter tun I was contemplating making/buying the materials to make a gott style mashtun. The first question that came to mind when doing all grain in a plastic masher, how does one deal with the different mash temperatures? IE if I start mashing at 150 for 30 minutes then have to mash at 160 for 20 more minutes, how do I raise the temp 10 degrees? Or are Dynamic mash temps not possible without a heating element? -Gil Milone Private replies gilbertmilone at hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:13:13 -0600 From: Rudi Wehmschulte <rjwehmschulte at chemdept.chem.ou.edu> Subject: fermentation science Fellow brewers: I was recently asked by the local student organization of the American Chemical Society to give a presentation about brewing science. Being a homebrewer I plan to focus on beer. I am looking for some sources that describe the mashing process and the fermentation itself in detail, especially the chemistry behind it. I am quite familiar with the "hop chemistry" due to a series of recent publications. Thanks Rudi - -- *********************************************** Rudi Wehmschulte, Dr. rer. nat. (405) 325-2388 (office) Dept. of Chemistry and Biochemistry (405) 325-2827 (lab) University of Oklahoma (405)-325-6111 (FAX) 620 Parrington Oval, Rm. 208 Norman, OK 73019 e-mail: rjwehmschulte at chemdept.chem.ou.edu http://cheminfo.chem.ou.edu/faculty/rjw.html *********************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:17:58 -0500 From: "Spinelli, Mike" <paa3983 at dscp.dla.mil> Subject: dip stick HBDers, I use a standard piece of copper plumbing pipe (1/2"?) as a depth gauge. I squished one end of the pipe flat and filed a "(" shaped bevel on the flat tun. I then secured it inside the tun by clipping the top of the pipe to the lip of the tun using one of those plastic home depot clamps. I then filled the tank with 12 gals. of water and attached a SS worm hose clamp to the pipe at the 12 gal. water line. Did this again at the 25, 30 and 35 gal. line. This way, I get a good idea of when I've collected enough during the sparge. Mike Cherry Hill NJ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:26:56 -0500 From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62 at hotmail.com> Subject: homebrew class My only advice is to make sure you have only one person talking at a time. If you're doing this for the first time you'll have any number of people jumping in with what are essentially minor variations of basic technique. That only confuses the new people and disrupts the class. What is completely acceptable in an informal discussion of brewing by brewers with some experience is not going to work for a beginning class. Don't be afraid to tell someone to shut up. My budy at the local homebrew shop tells that to me all the time. Joe Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:35:41 -0600 From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: RE: The O-word > >Anyway people, its noooooo opps. It doesn't matter who wrote this, I see it from many people and it drives me nuts. The correct spelling is oops. From the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary (on-line): Main Entry: oops Pronunciation: '(w)u(&)ps Function: interjection Date: 1933 - -- used typically to express mild apology, surprise, or dismay The spelling opps would yield a pronunciation of "awps" which of course, nobody would ever utter out loud. Unless of course, you're a Cockney and are referring to what a bunny does, or the deep-fried pizza with extra Tabasco wasn't sitting too well. I know I'm going to get flamed for this, and probably rightly so. But it's been eating away at me for some time and I felt compelled to speak out. Cross-posted to the HBD because I see it there, too. If I'm going to get flamed, I might as well get it all over with at once. Cheers Brian Lundeen Being extremely silly at [314,829] aka Winnipeg PS For those of you down under, those are my Rennerian coordinates. Strikes me that you should all be reckoning yourselves by Sandersian coordinates. I would suggest the Europeans use Pivonian coordinates, but for his personal safety, he never seems to stay in one place for any length of time. Insert emoticons liberally as you feel necessary. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:30:27 -0800 (PST) From: David Passaretti <dpassaretti at yahoo.com> Subject: Fermenter QD boiling I have never tried removing the rubber bottom from a soda keg so I cannot help you there. As far as boiling in the fermenter goes, I have done this many times and have never had any adverse affetcs on the mechanism itself. As far as how well it sanitizes I can only say that I have done this on 15-20 batches and have noticed no off-flvaors attributable to beer spoiling organsims. I have had beer around in kegs for as long as a year without problem. I used to leave the top of the fermenter open and QDs on both posts thinking that escaping steam would sanitize the fittings. It seemed to work but then I thought I could close it and the increased pressure would be a superior sanitizer. I have done this with a psi of 20-30 perhaps 5-8 times and it seems to work flawlessly. I would think that the closed environmeny wouldsanitize everything which came in contact with the high temp/pressure environment. This would include the entire poppet valve mechansim. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:50:15 -0600 From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: RE: Airlocks suck! Bob Schaffer-Neitz writes: > What I don't know is why my secondary is sucking back water > out of the airlock. Any ideas? This generally happens to me because of temperature fluctuations in my cellar. When the temperature drops, what's inside gets smaller, and something has to fill that space. That something is outside air being pulled back in. The solution is simple. Use vodka (then you don't care it it gets sucked back in) or use less liquid. It is possible to put in enough liquid to maintain the seal but not enough to get sucked back. The incoming air will just bubble through. To determine that level, fill the airlock, then blow gently from the top to blow out any excess. Personally, I prefer the twin-bubble to the 3-piece airlocks. I find they maintain their liquid better over time, which is important to me as a winemaker, where stuff can stay in carboy for months or years. Cheers Brian Lundeen Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:06:10 -0800 From: "David Hooper" <DHooper at kc.rr.com> Subject: Kettles and Thermometers I recently purchased a new brew pot which has a fitting for a thermometer. I started asking around if other brewers use a thermometer when boiling the wort. I have gotten three different opinions: 1.. Never--no need 2.. Always--helps consistency 3.. Use it for mashing, then remove it for boiling the wort. I would be interested in how others use the thermometer in their brew pots, and especially if they use it while boiling wort. I have looked around, but have not found the exact information I need. Thanks David Hooper DHooper at kc.rr.com http://pages.prodigy.net/david_hooper Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:45:05 -0500 From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com> Subject: Airlock Sucks R. Schaffer-Neitz writes about the woes of a sucking airlock or suckback in secondary. Ya gotta hate when that happens. I've had suckback occur when a newly pitched batch may cool (especially lagers in the fridge) while fermentation is getting under way, such that negative pressure wins over positive. It's the ole canning jar thang that causes the lid to seal--negative pressure or vacuum. This wouldn't seem to be the case here with a secondary fermentation, unless perhaps you had a sudden temperature decrease that would slow CO2 evolution (reduce positive pressure) and create a negative pressure. I've also had fexible-sided fermenters (plastic) suck water from the airlock if I pick them up to move them. The weight of the wort causes the container to flex and suck the airlock water. Gotta hate when that happens. Alcohol or sanitizer in the airlock can help if it does suck. Better yet is forethought and prevention. Remove the airlock, then move it. Perhaps neither of the above is a possible culprit. How 'bout a new tack? Could there be a hole in the airlock? A hole or crack might allow water to drain either down into or onto the outside of the fermenter. Check this out, take two aspirin and call us in the morning. Hope this helps. Rick Foote Whistle Pig Brewing Murrayville, GA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:53:46 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: 10 gal soda keg modification help >From: "TED MAJOR" <tidmarsh at charter.net> > >Recent posts here describing the sanitizing of a >Sankey >keg with soda keg fittings by boiling gave me the >obvious >idea of boiling my fermenter to sanitize. I would not do this. I had been cleaning out my kegs with very hot water, not steaming, but very hot. The darn poppets partially melted. I think I remember the yellow rubber, or whatever the yellow seal was made of had softened and deformed. Since then I have not used excessively hot water to clean. I would think boiling with pressure would also present the opportunity for melting the poppets, not to mention the saftey issues. I once asked and never heard back, so I will ask again. HOW DOES COKE CLEAN THEIR KEGS? anyone know? Ron Ronald J. La Borde www.hbd.org/rlabor pivoron at yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:41:14 -0500 (EST) From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu Subject: brief...off topic question Date sent: 13-FEB-2002 16:39:08 I apologogize, but have a cider question. Please answer off of the list. If you had 5 gallons of cider which tasted like apple cider vinegar,... would you toss it...or attempt to save? ..Darrell _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/Darrell Leavitt _/ _/INternet: leavitdg at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu _/ _/Internet (receives attachments): _/ _/ dleavitt at sln.esc.edu _/ _/AMpr.net: n2ixl at k2cc.ampr.org _/ _/AX25 : n2ixl at kd2aj.#nny.ny.usa _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:17:24 -0500 From: "Todd Tilton" <tilton at erols.com> Subject: Re: Harvesting barley > > Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:51:34 +0100 > From: "Groenigen, J.W. van " <J.W.vanGroenigen at Alterra.wag-ur.nl> > Subject: Harvesting barley > > Todd Snyder writes: > > >Anyone actually interested in converting dirt to beer is eventually going > to > >want a harvestor for reaping in (literally) all that homegrown barley. > > Well, I won't deny that that is the royal way of doing it, but it might be a > bit much for people who are just fooling around in their back yard. After > all, you only need a couple of square meters of barley for a batch of beer, > so people might start small. I thought you would need a lot more land than that. That's about 22.22 square feet, less than 5 feet by 5 feet or 4 feet by 6 feet. How much Barley would grow on two square meters? I was thinking that you would need 10 pounds for 5 gallons of beer. Todd Tilton Springfield, Va Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:28:41 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Lazzaretto <lazyz28 at yahoo.com> Subject: Sour Beer When I usually brew my Irish Stout, I add 3 bottles of soured Guinness to the 10 gallon batch during the boil. I sour the some of my last batch by crushing some pale malt, adding it to the beer in a container, and then leaving it to sour for a week or two in a warm place. I forgot to sour the beer last week, and I am brewing on Friday. I figure I can achieve the same effect by souring it later on, boiling it for about 10 minutes and then adding it when I keg the batch. Anyone see a problem with this? Will I achieve the same taste? I have had great results with my usual procedure. Mark Lazzaretto Burbank, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:25:56 -0500 From: "Rich Medina" <gothambrewer at bigfoot.com> Subject: Beating the Bazooka Screen horse Prior to this debate, I purchased a Bazooka screen based on some second hand info and the obvious fact that there is far more surface area in the Zymico product than what was already in my hands, namely the EZ Masher. Well, I plan to brew 2 ten gallon batches over the long weekend using all pellet hops and the Bazooka screen. While I can not center the screen to my keg without further modification, I don't believe placing it slightly off-center will be detrimental to its performance. For those of you who feather the valve leading from the bazooka screen, what is it that you wait for or look for before going wide open (I normally don't wait - go figya)? Rich Medina Gothambrewery, NYC gothambrewer at bigfoot.com You can observe alot just by watching - Yogi Berra Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:22:23 +1100 From: Pat Casey <patcasey at iprimus.com.au> Subject: Louis Pasteur This is a summary from a weekly science show, Ockham's Razor, on Radio National (Aus) Dr. Alan Baxter from the Centenary Institute in Sydney tells the story about "the beer of revenge". As a result of the Franco-Prussian war Louis Pasteur, whose name is usually associated with milk, was left with an obsessive hatred for Germans. At the time Germany's main export was beer. Pasteur vowed to destroy Germany's primary export market by developing the world's best beer in France. He dubbed this "the beer of revenge". for a full transcript of the broadcast which includes an explanation of why the local mega-swill is full of sugar: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s478177.htm Pat Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:55:30 +1030 From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au> Subject: RE: The O-word At 03:05 AM 2/14/02, silly Brian wrote: >The spelling opps would yield a pronunciation of "awps" > which of course, >nobody would ever utter out loud. Unless of course, > you're a Cockney and are >referring to what a bunny does, or the deep-fried > pizza with extra Tabasco >wasn't sitting too well. Naaah, you got i' wrong Brian. Opps is wot goes inna beer to make it bitt'er. Me ol' man yoosta ga down ta Kent ev'ry summer an' pick'em. Cheers guv! (boy, it's hard to type Cockney!! :-) ) Brad McMahon Aldgate, Sth. Australia [16261km,268.1] Rennerian (too far away) [1918km, 202.8] Sandersian (not far enough) :^P Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:47:18 -0500 From: Al Klein <rukbat at optonline.net> Subject: Harversting barley J.W.vanGroenigen writes: >Or is there an easier way of hand threshing? Anyway, I wouldn't bother with >harvesting by machine if you have less than 100 square meters of barley. Have an ox or a boar walk on it, then toss it up into the air with a basket. (It's a multi-thousand year old method.) :) - --- [Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] Al - rukbat at optonline dot net Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:21:04 -0500 From: Kevin Elsken <k.elsken at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Dubbel suggestions I recently tried a Bornem Dubbel and found it quite enjoyable. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find any clone rcipes on line. If anyone has a good recipe, suggestions on ingredients, or could recommend a book with a good I would appreciate. Private e-mail is OK. TIA, Kevin Elsken Little Boy Brewery North Strabane, PA [Over that way, a few hundred miles, quasi-Rennerian] Return to table of contents
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