HOMEBREW Digest #3923 Wed 24 April 2002

[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]

		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

  Re: Hello again! (Steven S)
  carafa use ("Czerpak, Pete")
  dissolved oxygen in sparge water ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Re: Koehler Beer (Jeff Renner)
  Question on yeast propagation method (Paul Shick)
  Re: water retained by grains (Jeff Renner)
  Re: water retained by grains (Rob Dewhirst)
  Down East Alers Competition Results ("H. Dowda")
  Traquair House Ale Label Mystery. (Victor Macias)
  Barley Wine Bottling Sugar ("John Gubbins")
  RE: Crystal Malt Powder/DME (Paddock Wood Customer Service)
  Movingbrews? ("Gary Smith")
  spiced ale ("James R Bain    B Elizabeth")
  HSA stuff (Jim Adwell)

* * 10th annual Spirit of Free Beer entry deadline is 5/11/02 * Details at http://www.burp.org/events/sofb/2002/ * * 2002 Bay Area Brew Off entry deadline is 5/20/2002 * Details: http://www.draughtboard.org/babopage.htm * * Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! * http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping * * Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! * Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address for the automation - that's your job. The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit. More information is available by sending the word "info" to req at hbd.org. JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 06:57:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net> Subject: Re: Hello again! - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > Well, I've been off the list for several years, but I'm back! For anyone > that remembers me, I'm now in Atlanta...moved from NC in 2000. I'm ready > to brew again, and I'm hoping that someone can steer me in the right > direction. Try Homebrewing Supplies (homebrewingsupplies.org) Indian Trail and Hwy-29 (up I-85). All the in town people have closed (Amber Waves and BYOB). There is one or two homebrew shops in Alpharetta and Cobb but i've never been there. > I'm looking for good homebrew supply stores in the Atlanta metro area? > Also, which microbreweries in this area should I visit? If you can call it microbrew Gordon Biersch isn't too horrible. The meirscham (sp?) is tasty if a little thin on body. Hops carries some intresting on-site brews but they serve the stuff so cold any flavor it might have had is frozen stiff. I hear Max Lagers is good but i've not been. John Havard closed and I never even got there. If you want a fine pint of Guiness go to Fado's in Buckhead (not a microbrewery), but thats assuming you have absolutly nothing better to do besides end up there. Atlanta Beer Garden is also a popular spot but it tends to attract the crowd so i've avoided it. With the warm summer days here suddenly a nice trip over to the Price of Whales (not a microbrewery) by the park and sitting on the patio is quite nice. Sadly the beer selection is just okay, and the taps are rarely cleaned properly. I wish they would pick up obsecure english ales. Steven St.Laurent 403forbidden.net [580.2,181.4] Rennerian - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8xT4dCiajR6RR+KARAk5NAJ9Y5AzVu/xMvf+i9nNK6N7Ap5AmnACfRBal +WpghgydlwssfoiK0xh8kYU= =a2ba - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:00:16 -0400 From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com> Subject: carafa use A few HBDs back, Darrell from Plattsburgh asked about carafa use in a dark lager. Here are various batches I've done, dark grains in each, as well as total grains used. Whenever I show carafa (I,II,III) I've always used the dehusked version.... oatmeal stout: 0.25 lb I, 0.25 lb III, 0.75 lb II, 0.25 lb roasted barley in 13.25 lb total brown ale: 0.5 lb carafa I in 15.25 lb total bitter:1 oz II in 7.25 lb total + 0.5 dark brown sugar brown ale: 0.375 lb I, 0.25 lb english chocolate in 15.125 lb total scotch wee heavy: 0.25 lb I, 0.25 lb III in 22 lbs total schwartzbier: 0.375 lb I, 0.1875 lb III in 12.81 lbs total I use the carafa in the bitter for a bit of color (medium amber colored beer) and I seem to remember Jeff Renner mentioning it as a stabilizing agent as well. The amount of carafa used in the brown ales (american brownes) made them quite dark which was what I wanted. Not light brown like I consider newcastle. Finally, the 0.5 lb total in the wee heavy was way too much. Color turned out to be quite dark in addition to a mild roasty flavor being perceptable. The first runnings were boiled down in that so perhaps it contributed to a larger color formation than I designed/thought. I like the use of carafa. In some beers, the use of carafa and english dark grains provide a nice balance behind a brew that is too smooth with only carafa use and not quite smooth enough with only english dark grains. Try carafa, you'll like it too. Pete Czerpak albany, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:36:56 -0400 From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com> Subject: dissolved oxygen in sparge water Phil Yates questions the solubility of oxygen in hot water since the water starts cold and has plenty of oxygen in it. Water at room temperature (20degC) has about 9.2 ppm dissolved oxygen in it. Water at 66degC has 4 ppm dissolved O2. water at 71degC has 3.24 ppm oxygen. water at 77 degC has 2.62 ppm in it and finally water at 82 degC has 2.0 ppm. Boiling water has basically zero oxygen in it. That being so, sparge water has about 25% of the oxygen dissolved in it that it had at room temperature assuming equilibrium was reached. Steve Alexander - any idea what order reaction the main HSA reactions might be in terms of oxygen concentration? Atleast up to 66degC, the dissolved O2 curve is linear. At boiling, its 0 ppm. If you look at the above points on a graph and follow the trend, the O2 solubiilty looks linear with temperature. While I believe HSA is a real phenomena, I don't take drastic measures to reduce oxygen content. I still pour my mash water from about 12 inches above the bottom of the mash vessel, recirculate first and second running about 6 inches above grain bed. However, I don't get crazy and drop my mash from a height of 18 meters or anything else. Pete Czerpak albany, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:49:14 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Koehler Beer John M. Fraser <FRASERJ at Nationwide.com> writes: >Having a girlfriend, of last name Koehler, she is way interested in seeing >if I can get a recipe of this old brand! There is some attempt to revive >the brewery in PA, where her family originated from early in the 1900's. > >If anyone knows of a Koehler recipe, please send it to me! Rummaging around my library I find that Koehler Beer was made by the Erie Brewing Co. of Erie, PA. This is from pp. 117-118 of _The Connoisseur's Guide to Beer_ by James D. Robertson, Caroline House Publishers, Aurora, IL, 1982." I suspect the early history is from _One Hundred Years of Brewing_ (1903), but that book has no index and my quick browse of it didn't turn up this brewery): "Erie Brewing Co )Erie, Pa) Charles Koehler had been a grower of tulips in Holland for some years, then in 1840 he sold his land and sailed to America with his wife. In 1847 he decided that he would become a brewer and established a small plant at 25th and Holland in Erie. He had some success with the business and passes the brewing idea on to his sons. When he died in 1869, his oldest son, Frederick, together with brother Jackson and partner A. L. Curtze, continued the business as Fred Koehler & Co. Jackson left the firm in 1883 to buy the nearby Kalvage Brewery and both continued to operate independently until they decided to merge with the J.M. Conrad and Cascade Breweries to form the Erie Brewing Co. in 1899. The firm was managed by descendants of Jackson Koehler until 1979 when Erie was purchased by C. Schmidt & Sons, Inc." Robertson goes on to describe the current (1982) product line, which is mostly unremarkable, although "Koehler Beer (brewed with the Dutch Taste)" he describes as having "a flavor quite different from those of the vast majority of American beers." There was also an ale, lite, pilsener, lager and "Imperial Cream Beer" introduced in 1976 and brewed with "choice barley, malt, rice and hops aged for full three months for a hearty, robust, old-country taste." This sounds like an attempt to use surplus capacity and produce a product that would regain lost sales, but, like nearly every regional brewery, they ultimately were swallowed up by a bigger brewery which has itself subsequently suffered the same fate. I would suggest that you brew a Classic American Pilsner and perhaps opt for rice as the adjunct considering this latter, although they may have used corn for their everyday beers. Your exact target would depend on which period you wanted to reproduce and which beer in their lineup. The later beer would have had more adjunct, less hops, and lower gravity. A good starter would be 70% 6-row, 30% rice, cereal mash, first mash 145F, add cereal mash to get 158 (adjust as needed), Cluster hops for 15-20 IBU, noble hops for flavor and finish for 20 IBU total maximum, OG 1.044, FG 1.009, use the old Christian Schmidt yeast if you can get it (the Koehler yeast is no doubt lost to history). If you wanted to go for the "Imperial Cream Beer" you might want to up the gravity, but probably not the hops. I can scan the two pages from Robertson's book with the somewhat uninformative tasting notes (generally low hopping). If something indeed comes from reviving this beer, let me know. Perhaps I can help further. Hope this helps. Jeff - -- ***Please note my new address*** Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:56:24 -0500 From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu> Subject: Question on yeast propagation method Hi all, Now that the MCAB festivities are finished, I've been trying to get back into the brewhouse. After addressing some sanitation issues, I hit on one of our local breweries for some ale yeast, and had a great conversation with one of the more knowledgable brewers about how he treats this particular strain (Wyeast 1272-American Ale II.) His method of propagating yeast is quite different than most homebrewers, and I'm curious as to whether people have tried it successfully at a smaller scale. He brews 10 barrel batches, but tries to avoid the expense of buying tons of yeast by growing it up, like most homebrewers. He starts with small starters, as we do, aerated thoroughly, up to about a gallon or so, then does a half barrel starter of wort, similar in character to the planned batch, seriously aerated. He pitches the entire half barrel into the main batch, aerating again, about 18 or so hours later. I questioned pitching this big a starter and aerating, worrying about oxidation/reduction of alcohol leading to off flavors. Like many homebrewers, I decant the fermented wort off the yeast slurry, whenever I've built up a big enough starter and had enough time for it to ferment out. His reasoning is that the starter has reproduced about as much as it's going to, without producing much alcohol at the 18 hour mark, so he won't be oxidizing many alcohols and leading to premature staling or off flavors. He says its a matter of careful timing, so I presume it requires a lot of familiarity with the quirks of the yeast strain. In any case, his beers are generally very clean, with good attenuation and little evidence of problem fermentations. Has anyone tried to time their starters this carefully, to pitch a large population of very active yeast while avoiding adding much alcohol to the soon-to-be-aerated wort? Has it worked? Are there likely long-term worries, like selecting for yeast that might have more trouble fermenting maltose or maltotriose, as opposed to glucose? Any feedback is welcomed. It's nice to be back brewing, at last! Having 11 gallons of wonderful smelling APA chugging away in the basement is really uplifting. Paul Shick Cleveland Hts, OH Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:08:37 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: water retained by grains Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com> >I recently mashed a CAP-like pilsner and had close to 0.20 gallons/lb of >water retained by the grains where I usually have 0.12. The highest I've >seen before was 0.17 with my system. > >Does flaked maize or 6-row retain more water than 2-row? Glad to hear you are brewing this great beer. You are more quantitative than I am in your brewing, I guess, I have never measured retained water. 6-row has slightly higher husk than 2-row, and this would retain water, but I can't imagine it would be significant. It is also slightly higher in protein, which would also retain it. Flaked maize is little more than starch and a little protein. Again, wouldn't seem to be all that different. However, it sounds like you have the only data point. Maybe the answer is yes. Maybe you can repeat the experiment. I wouldn't think this would affect your results. Jeff - -- ***Please note my new address*** Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:52:19 -0500 From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com> Subject: Re: water retained by grains At 10:08 AM 4/23/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Glad to hear you are brewing this great beer. You are more quantitative >than I am in your brewing, I guess, I have never measured retained water. I try to sparge hands-off, so I measure my water in advance, and when it's done it's done. I ran out of water this time, and it's the only time that's happened. That's the only reason I noticed significantly more water was retained. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:43:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com> Subject: Down East Alers Competition Results http://www.sagecat.com/dea.htm Congratulations to the winners. See you next year! Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:29:55 -0700 From: Victor Macias <VMacias at foxsports.net> Subject: Traquair House Ale Label Mystery. Greetings, collective. I recently bought a bottle of Traquair House Ale at a fine Southern California sandwich shop/beer spot (infamous for keeping well-aged bottles), and the label is different than the current label. The bottle I have has a label with an all off-white background and green cursive lettering. Does anyone know if this is an older label, and if so, what years Traquair used it? Thanks in advance for your help. Victor Macias Pacific Gravity Homebrewers Club Culver City, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:21:59 -0600 From: "John Gubbins" <n0vse at idcomm.com> Subject: Barley Wine Bottling Sugar A question for all you high gravity brewers out there. I've been brewing for years and notice that whenever I brew a high gravity beer whether Stout or something else, if I bottle it it fails to carbonate much. This is not much of a problem since many of those styles are not meant to be heavily carbonated. It also takes forever for it to carbonate. In the most recent issue of Zymurgy there was a letter addressing this question. I am in the same fix. I have a Barley Wine brewed around last Christmas that is ready to bottle. The question: Corn sugar as suggested by Zymurgy or malt? I don't know. The argument is that corn sugar being almost pure glucose does not have the oxygen requirement that malt sugar does. That is fine. But... Back in the dark ages when I learned to brew at a couple of now defunct Colorado BOPs, corn sugar was used as an adjunct. It left a funky flavor in the beer. When I first started brewing at home I used corn sugar to prime with ala Papazian. It worked but that same off flavor was in there. When I changed to malt, the off flavors disappeared. I've used malt ever since in bottling. When I keg which is most of the time, I force carbonate but those aren't high gravity beers usually. What do you suggest, folks. Corn or malt sugar? John Gubbins n0vse at idcomm.com Littleton Co (big forest fire burning now) Rennerian 1117,265.5 - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 4/17/2002 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 13:16:04 -0600 From: Paddock Wood Customer Service <experts at paddockwood.com> Subject: RE: Crystal Malt Powder/DME Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net> pines: "I can't seem to find anyone who carries crystal malt powder anymore. It's ice cream season and I am pining for the stuff. Anyone have any ideas?" Why, yes, I do! Paddock Wood (AAAPBMSAMMR*) has it and Chocolate dry malt extract as well. http://www.paddockwood.com/catalog_malt.html#DME $1.25 CND/100gm. Which is something like $0.22/oz USD. cheers, Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevisiis sugant." Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK, Canada experts at paddockwood.com www.paddockwood.com *Affiliated As Anything, Please Buy My Stuff And Make Me Rich Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:33:40 -0500 From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com> Subject: Movingbrews? Hi, I'd like to get an order from movingbrews (a duplicate parts list from my last order to him for my RIMS project). His web page is still there but says no more orders till the Christmas vacation is over. I've called, reached a full voice mailbox & emailed him with no reply. Anyone know if he's still going to be open for business? I can still get what I need otherwise but it'd be nice to have all the parts be consistent. Thanks & Cheers, Gary Gary Smith http://musician.dyndns.org "I have more talent in my smallest fart than you have in your entire body" - Walter Matthau to Barbara Streisand (off camera while making "Hello Dolly") - Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:34:17 -0700 From: "James R Bain B Elizabeth" <nutfarm at snowcrest.net> Subject: spiced ale THX to Jim, Richard, & Phil for your input and suggestions. Have sent private email responses. Jim in Chico Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:56:25 -0400 From: Jim Adwell <jim at jimala.com> Subject: HSA stuff Larry Bristol writes: "I am somewhat bewildered by the implication that there is a relationship between HSA and spoilage due to oxidation. Perhaps I have missed it, but I have seen no evidence (even anecdotal) from any source to imply such a relationship. I would be happy to see any evidence to which you can point." Okay, Larry, here you go. A research article published on line by the The Journal of the American Society of Brewing Chemists (http://www.scisoc.org/asbc/Journal/): Nonoxidative Mechanism for Development of trans-2-Nonenal in Beer. by G. Lermusieau, S. Noel, C. Liegeois, and S. Collin http://www.scisoc.org/asbc/Journal/abstracts/search/1999/0204-05a.htm This is a link to a PDF file you can download, or read online with the Acrobat plugin, if you have it. This research article claims that trans-2-nonenal, which is perceived as a cardboard flavor in stale beer, is not produced by oxidation; however, the precursers to trans-2-nonenal are in fact produced by oxidative changes during mashing. It goes on to point out that boiling wort with a small amount of potassium metabisulfite ( about 1.5 grams in 5 gallons of wort, more or less) keeps trans-2 nonenal from forming, thus eliminating or reducing the cardboard flavor staling of beer. A quote from the article: "We logically detect higher nonenal potentials when oxidation occurs during mashing (higher lipoxygenasic activity) or when the hot break is insufficiently eliminated (slight nonenal potential de-crease). Moreover, the nonenal potential of the wort is clearly related to staling of the flavor of the corresponding beers, confirming that flavor stability is not related to beer packaging but to wort preparation." The result of the research detailed in this article clearly points to mash oxidation as being the cause of beer staling, at least in commercial beer factories. Does this affect homebrewed beer? In my experience, not much. I, like Phil Yates, enjoy the fact that beer changes as it ages, and frankly I don't keep beer around long enough for it to taste like stale cardboard. I like fresh beer. Do I worry about HSA and keeping air out of wort? Not at all, because it simply does not matter to me if my beer goes stale in 6 months or a year, because it doesn't last that long. If a bottle of beer lasts a month without being imbibed it's a miracle. Steve Alexander et al can worry and fret over mash oxidation all they want, me and Phil are just going to make beer and drink it, and RDWHAHB. Cheers, Jim Jim's Brewery Pages: http://brewery.jimala.com Return to table of contents
[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]
HTML-ized on 04/24/02, by HBD2HTML v1.2 by KFL
webmaster at hbd.org, KFL, 10/9/96