HOMEBREW Digest #3944 Sat 18 May 2002

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  Heat elements ("Mike Brennan")
  yeast for belgian strong ale (ensmingr)
  Siebel Week: Carbonation Rates (David Lamotte)
  Yeast Microscopy ("Dave and Joan King")
  Tomato Sauce (Randy Ricchi)
  BCJP Judges ("Tom Byrnes")
  RE: Monitoring CFC outflow temp (Jeff Renner)
  fuller golden pride info ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Re: Tomato Sauce (Jeff Renner)
  re: hop bag use (Paul Kensler)
  Re: Origin of Common Expressions and Practices ("Larry Bristol")
  sour wit (Jeff Renner)
  'golden monkey' yeast (ensmingr)
  further to hsa/oxidation silliness ("Robin Griller")
  re: silliness & hsa ("Steve Alexander")
  re: Tomato Sauce ("Steve Alexander")
  Siebel Week - Municipal water treatment ("AOB Moderator")
  Siebel Week - Tank Design ("AOB Moderator")
  Siebel Week - Yeast ("AOB Moderator")
  Siebel Week - Bulk malt delivery ("AOB Moderator")
  Siebel Week - Gaskets for keg cleaners ("AOB Moderator")
  RE: Hop Bag Use (Steve Funk)
  Cap and 2112 yeasts (carlos benitez)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:31:42 -0500 From: "Mike Brennan" <brewdude at tampabay.rr.com> Subject: Heat elements Anyone have a good source for All stainless steel or all brass water heating elements. I'm looking for 120 volt 1500 watts or better, screw in type. The ones I got from the local home improvement center are supposed to be stainless but the centers corrode significantly and have to be wire brushed each time before use. I'm just using them for a hot water tank that I set on a timer so my water is ready when I wake up on brew day. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 01:41:57 -0400 From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com Subject: yeast for belgian strong ale Greetings, I want to brew a 'Belgian tripel' and need some suggestions for yeast. I especially like the earthy/musky character present in Victory's 'Golden Monkey' (see: http://www.victorybeer.com/beers/golden_monkey_tripel_ale.htm ). Which yeast should I use? Some possibilities include: White Labs 500 (Trappist Ale) White Labs 530 (Abbey Ale) White Labs 550 (Belgian Ale) Wyeast 3787 (Trappist high gravity) Wyeast 1214 (Belgian Ale) Wyeast 1762 (Belgian Abbey) I'm leaning toward Wyeast 1214, but would appreciate your suggestions. Cheerio! Peter A. Ensminger Syracuse, NY http://hbd.org/ensmingr Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 18:24:56 +1000 From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au> Subject: Siebel Week: Carbonation Rates Thanks to all concerned for the brilliant opportunity. My question concerns the influence of wort gravity on rate of CO2 dissolution during carbonation. I understand how pressure and temperature affect the amount of CO2 dissolved at equilibrium, but have noticed that high gravity beers (~8 w % alcohol) SEEM to take much longer to carbonate. Equally light beers (~3 %) appear to gas up very quickly. Is there any information on how the rate of solution of CO2 is affected by the composition of the beer. Thanks again, David Lamotte, Wondering, down under in Newcastle, NSW, Australia. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:49:10 -0400 From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com> Subject: Yeast Microscopy Troy, I'm a seasoned Microscopist, Metallurgist, and home brewer. I'd like to be able to look at my friend's the yeast, but don't know beans about microbiology or even organic chemistry. Could you help us (there must be more than just me) understand how to use a universal microscope to examine our buddies the yeasts? Thanks a bunch, Dave King Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:19:47 -0400 From: Randy Ricchi <randyr at up.net> Subject: Tomato Sauce Martin Brungard asks what type of beer would complement Italian foods. For what it's worth, in his "Beer Companion", Michael Jackson suggests the Vienna style to accompany pizza. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:45:11 -0400 From: "Tom Byrnes" <kmstfb2 at exis.net> Subject: BCJP Judges If you are a BCJP Ranked Judge living in or near the Tidewater Virginia area,please contact me directly. I am looking for a qualified person to lead a BCJP study session and beer education to help beer club members improve their judging skills. Cheers Tom Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:45:36 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net> Subject: RE: Monitoring CFC outflow temp Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net> of Lake Jackson, TX wrote: >Jeff Renner has a good idea. >After the boil, he circulates the wort through the CFC and back into the >kettle until it gets down to pitching temp. Actually, I use an immersion chiller, but there's no reason it shouldn't work with a CFC. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:57:49 -0400 From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com> Subject: fuller golden pride info I got an offline question about Fullers Golden Pride barleywine. Here's the brewing info off the bottle: 8.5% ABV, pale and crystal malts, Northdown, Challenger, and Target hoppings. >From the Barleywine book by the AHA, 1.086 OG, 1.020 FG, 38 IBU (I tasted more than this however so I doubt it), pale malt only, 8.5%ABV, first runnings only with seocnd runnings going towards London Pride. The pale only malt doesn't seem quite right based on the color/flavor of the barleywine unless they carmelize the initial runnings or use caramel or a crystal malt extract to bring the color up. Its a tasty brew for sure and bottled in 20 oz bottles. As far as I know only available in Europe and possibly only the UK in select areas. I did not see it at any of the Fullers pubs I visited near London that did have the rest of the other Fullers products including cask London Pride (yummy!). Pete Czerpak Albany, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:54:18 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Tomato Sauce Martin_Brungard at URSCorp.com writes from Tallahassee, FL: >In my decidedly unscientific research on beer pairings with food, I've come >to the conclusion that very few beers pair well with a tomato sauce based >foods. > >I enjoy red wines with various Italian foods. The acid and tannins of the >wine seem to complement the tomato sauce and its acidity. > >Does anyone have a suggestion for a beer style that goes well with this >type of food. Michael Jackson writes (Beer Companion, p. 205): "Unless the brew is of the Vienna style, the partnership of pizza and beer is merely Italian-American popular romance. With this superbly suited style, it is a love affair consummated." Dave Berry is less particular: "Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza." Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 06:09:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com> Subject: re: hop bag use Paul, Are you using any sort of filtering device on the inlet of your racking tube? If not, that's probably where I'd start. I'd highly recommend getting ahold of a Zymico Bazooka or Bazooka T. I've used my Bazooka T for several batches and it works great for filtering out whole hops. I think the key is that it has an enormous surface area plus relatively large holes in the screen. When I occasionally use pellets, the large holes in the screen let some of the smaller pellet bits through but overall it does a great job. Also, I'd recommend letting your wort settle for a few minutes - 10 or 15 - before running off. For me, this really helps settle the hops so they act as a nice filter bed for other hops and trub. Finally, does your racking arm have a ball valve or some other means of controlling the flow rate? If you suddenly open your outflow you're more likely to get sudden suction on the inlet of your racking tube... better to slowly crack it open and slowly increase to full throttle. Hope this helps, Paul Kensler Gaithersburg, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 09:35:23 -0500 From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com> Subject: Re: Origin of Common Expressions and Practices On Tue, 14 May 2002 09:24:02 -0600, "Mike Racette" <mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com> queries: > These are really good, Larry. Definitely worth forwarding on to others. Thanks, Mike! > I always wondered where the expression "Hair of the dog that bit > you" came from when associated with having a beer (or whatever) > the morning following a little binge drinking. Anyone know where > this one originates? Well, here is one possibility: A woman's miniature schnauzer had an infection in its ear. The vet told her that it was due to an ingrown hair and that the best treatment would be to remove the hair with a depilatory cream. The women went to a drug store and asked the druggist for assistance in selecting an appropriate product. He went on about how some were better for use on legs and how some were gentler and better for removing facial hair. He then said, "May I ask where you intend to use this?" She replied, "Well, it's for my schnauzer." The druggist then said, "OK, but you shouldn't ride a bike for two weeks." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps a better explanation is that "the hair of the dog that bit you" goes back to the old belief that the hair of a dog that bites someone could be used as an antidote against the bad effects of the bite. By extension, another drink or two after a drinking binge would be the cure for a hangover. Reference: Dr. James C. Briggs (http://www.briggs13.fsnet.co.uk) There are also explanations for some of the other phrases mentioned thus far. Larry Bristol Bellville, TX AR=[1093.6,223.2] http://www.doubleluck.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:03:19 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net> Subject: sour wit Byron <Partner at Netdirect.net> writes from aobut 200 miles SW of here: >Gentleman and Ladies, the question I pose to you is ... since I had begun a >soured mash.. what might I had continued, to make a style of beer? A wit! They are sour. What you did was what some brewers do deliberately. Graham Sanders of Australia makes his famous Tropical Flower Wit by souring a portion (15%?) of his mash for two days, then adding it to the main mash. My guess is that the pH of your mash may have been too low (<5.0) for good conversion, but you could have raised it with chalk. You'd have needed pH paper for that. But I think I would have tasted the mash first, and tried mashing it. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:26:08 -0400 From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com Subject: 'golden monkey' yeast In case anyone is interested in culturing yeast from a bottle of Victory's 'Golden Monkey' for fermenting a homebrew, I just got this message from the Victory brewmaster: "The Golden Monkey goes through primary fermentation with a Belgian top fermenting strain. It is cold conditioned with our standard ale strain. It is dosed in the bright beer tank with our lager strain for bottle conditioning. So, the final bottle may have 3 strains in it. Therefore, drawing yeast from the bottle will not make for stable fermentation results." Cheerio! Peter A. Ensminger Syracuse, NY http://hbd.org/ensmingr Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 12:37:11 -0400 From: "Robin Griller" <robin_g at ica.net> Subject: further to hsa/oxidation silliness Hi everyone, Sorry to point out the obvious, but for anyone freeking out about the horrible damage they are doing to their beer by *not* mashing it in a CO2 only environment, *not* boiling under a float, etc., here's a quote from one of today's Siebel postings: "As a general comment the concern over beer oxidation can be carried to extremes. Many of the world's 'classic' beers were originally brewed in ways that were not concerned about oxidation's effects. In fact it is probable that some of the flavor characteristics of these beers were a result of oxidation! Since oxygen is seen today as a dire enemy of beer quality there is very little discussion about possible positive taste effects with certain styles of beer. The homebrewer is fortunate in that they can experiment with this on a small scale and see whether there may be some styles where some oxidation is OK. The presence of yeast in most homebrewing situations is one of the great protections against oxidation's effects. The modern concern over oxidation has really been the result of its obvious negative taste effects as the vast majority of the world's beers become lighter in body and taste. In many of these beers there is no place for any off flavors to hide! We also know more about the subject and the large brewers can afford the technology to keep oxygen pickup to a minimum - from raw material handling to the final container." The conclusion I would reach from this is: if you want to brew colourless tasteless crap (i.e. megaswill) worry. Otherwise relax and leave your beer alone, it's doing just fine as it is! :) Robin Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:01:16 -0400 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: silliness & hsa mjandrsn writes ... >The debate is futile: One insists on being right, the other >just wants to be happy. I can't agree. LBristol takes every point twists it bass-ackward and posts a bizzaro world response. Just in case anyone is still interested I feel it's necessary to comment on the errors. N ot a debate. I suggested comparing a cool-stored vs a heat processed version of HB for several reasons - / Not all beer shows the same staling flavors, /Many staling flavors are unfamiliar to HBers as such, /Comparative tasting can reveal far more subtle flavor differences /A taster sensitized to these stale flavors may more readily recognize them in properly handled HB. /It may reveal some of the specific staling flavors of the particular HB sample. Bristol's response is that the test is irrelevant because a/ his beers aren't experimental and b/ someone in Belgium has detected one single staling product in a heat-aged beer. If anyone can support that conclusion with a logical argument I'll send you some belgian beers for the effort. I also suggested that HSA causes color (and I believe flavor) changes which are immediately perceptible in the wort and beer. That these problems are almost universal in HB and yet can be reduced by the use of sulphites and oxygen exclusion and that if comparative brews were made I believe a flavor difference would be clearcut. Bristol's response was an excursion into his world of witches, hobgoblins and illogic, and the irrelevant comment that his beers taste fine therefore can't have oxidation damage. The only reason that Larry Bristol (or anyone else) can't see the 'witches' in his beer is his stubborn refusal to look .... to look by performing any of the simple experiments. How could Larry make any sensible comment when his reading is restricted to a single paper and he refuses to test the issue by experiment ? Larry did post some quantitative data that shows that a conventional beer (no CO2 mash purge, good break removal) with accelerated aging had ~60% less trans-2-nonenal than a "naturally aged" sample (20C for 90 days). Larry missed that a previous table shows exactly the opposite ; ~60% *higher* nonenal for the accelerated aging sample. What is the relevance ? To Larry it's that no control is needed when comparing beers !! Obviously whether there is a difference or not says nothing about the specifics you'll find in your own beer with your own tongue. The lambics for logic offer applies here too. I agree with Pivo that the gold standard is to perform control brews with and without HSA and then taste these over a period of time. Pivo forgot to mention that it requires a lot of work and a bit of luck to make two beers which are not distinguishable by triangle test. Not nearly as simple a his trub test and one could throw stones at that one too. On a less brew-relevant note Larry says he never asked for my applause. Actually he asked that I "congratulate" folks who make unsupported claims. I guess the linguist can't associate 'applause' and 'congratulations'. Jeff Renner's long list of etymological gaffes missed "cunning". Sorry to all for the length - next time I'll just point out what Larry got right. ===== Robin Griller thinks my comments silly .... >[...] no one else seems to have >noticed how silly some of the claims re hsa have been, [...] > >"You've never had an ale pick up sweet caramel notes, [...] All I can say Robin is that you are pretty inexperienced with ales staling or you aren't attuned to the development of this flavor flaw. The development of a strongly sweet caramel-like note is very common in ales. The silliness is that you are not distinguishing caramel flavors present in the fresh beer from those which I said develop after kegging. Here is what those silly University guys at M&BS write ... "Flavour stability .... Ales become distinctly sweet with molasses-type cloying characters." They describe this in various places as "sweet-taste", and "toffee-like aroma and flavour". I have two other papers that reference this flavor development - one demonstrates a relation with beer ITT levels and another measures the development (continual increase) in this flavor over time by triangle test. M&BS associates this most with ales made from light colored & low/medium gravity wort. OTOH they report stouts develop stale cheesy flavors. Let me turn this around. Larry - what changes DO you see in your ales as they age ? Could you describe what you are sensing as they age ? ===== >From the comments on HSA and some of the questions to Seibel I can see there are a lot of library cards gathering dust and search engines sitting idle. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:24:08 -0400 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: Tomato Sauce >In my decidedly unscientific research on beer pairings with food, I've come >to the conclusion that very few beers pair well with a tomato sauce based >foods. Beers never seem to match tomato sauce and I too think it's the acidity factor. M.Jackson wrote something about marzens and pizza pairing up - but it's an awkward pairing to me. Pesto and alfredo sauce works much better w/ beer - tho' still not a favorite. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:00:50 -0600 From: "AOB Moderator" <moderator at aob.org> Subject: Siebel Week - Municipal water treatment From: Doug Macnair <Doug.Macnair at Redhook.com> Subject: Municipal water treatment My question for the Siebel week forum concerns municipal water treatments and their potential impact on the brewing process. Our local municipal water works informed me that they will be implementing a corrosion inhibitor program using a 50/50 blend of Poly and Ortho Phosphates dosed into the final water downstream of the filtration plant. I am aware of the calcium- phosphate reactions in a mash and its importance in acidifying the mash. Do these other forms of phosphate react in the same way? Is a few ppm increase in the water worth worrying about a brewing salt adjustment? Any possible effects post brewhouse from these treatments? I look forward to responses from those with more water chemistry background than I, which will not be very difficult by the way. Doug MacNair Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:04:41 -0600 From: "AOB Moderator" <moderator at aob.org> Subject: Siebel Week - Tank Design From: Caleb McLaughlin <cmcbrew808 at hotmail.com> Subject: Siebel Week - Tank Design Aloha Panel, What is it about the configuration of a tall, skinny, dish-bottom tank (120 bbl) that makes it a bad design for fermentation? Besides the fact of "cone-bottom" being better for yeast handling. Also, does anyone know the name/contact# of a glycol specialist that has experience with sizing up for a breweries growth? Thanks in advance for everyone's involvement with the Forum this week, Caleb McLaughlin Rogue Ales ph#541-867-3660 cmcbrew808 at hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:02:22 -0600 From: "AOB Moderator" <moderator at aob.org> Subject: Siebel Week - Yeast From: Caleb McLaughlin <cmcbrew808 at hotmail.com> Subject: Siebel Week - Yeast Hello Panel, I am looking for any information /experience(s) with autolyzing or "killing" spent yeast on a large scale for use as a safe, high protein food source for cattle. Any info. on a practical design/procedure to achieve best results would be beneficial. Thanks again! Caleb McLaughlin Rogue Ales ph#541-867-3660 cmcbrew808 at hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:18:22 -0600 From: "AOB Moderator" <moderator at aob.org> Subject: Siebel Week - Bulk malt delivery From: John J. Hall <jjhall at gooseisland.com> Subject: Siebel Week - Bulk malt delivery Does anyone have any information about the optimum PSI/ Pumping speed during a bulk malt delivery? We currently pump up to our silo at 5 psi, but I've heard of other breweries that won't pump over 3 psi and some that pump as high as 10 to 15 psi. We've heard many different reasons for the different speeds. Too fast, you'll get shearing, too slow, the hose isn't packed and again you'll get shearing. Anyone have any practical experience or horror stories to relate? John J. Hall Head Brewer Goose Island Beer Co. jjhall2gooseisland.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:11:06 -0600 From: "AOB Moderator" <moderator at aob.org> Subject: Siebel Week - Gaskets for keg cleaners From: Brian Owens Subject: Siebel Week - Gaskets for keg cleaners Hi, I'm writting to find out where I can get gaskets for my keg cleaner that will hold up longer. I am using steam to clean kegs and the rubber gaskets that fit in the hex nut that attatches to the sanky are not strong enough. I'm looking for somthing that will hold up a little better under the steam pressure and temperature. I'm thankful for any tips or reccommendations. Thanks, Brian Owens brian1 at peoplepc.com O'Fallon Brewery O'Fallon MO Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:16:24 -0700 From: Steve Funk <steve at hheco.com> Subject: RE: Hop Bag Use Paul Stutzman asked about hop particles clogging up the works. Well Paul, I also use a Sanke keg as a boil kettle but I modified it with a SS valve AND and perforated SS false bottom. The backside of the valve has a tube that bends 90 degrees and sets approximately 1/4" from the bottom of the concave bottom of the kettle. The false bottom hinges in half and has a hole that the tube passes through. I use whole leaf or plug hops and when I'm ready to draw off the wort at the end of the boil, I recirculate a few pints first using a peristaltic tubing pump. This causes the hop material to settle down onto the false bottom and form a sort of filter bed leaving the drawn off wort crystal clear as it enters my CFC. It may be worth it for you modify your kettle too. Alternatively, use a SS choreboy scrubbie pad over the end of your pickup tube. Sorry, no other help about hop utilization other than to say I know hop bags will reduce it. - -- Cheers, Steve Funk Stevenson, WA Home of CRGB Columbia River Gorge (home)Brewing Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 19:21:04 -0700 (PDT) From: carlos benitez <greenmonsterbrewing at yahoo.com> Subject: Cap and 2112 yeasts Hi everybody, I just finished brewing my first attempt at a cap - I don't have true lagering ability so in actuality it is CACA. Unfortunately, I can't follow a recipe to save my Soul - I want to, but I can't help tweaking it - so my recipes are never historically correct. In this one I used 5lb of 100% blue corn meal and 15 lbs of pale 2 row malt with saaz hops and some Mt Hood thrown in for flavor... I used wyeast 2112 for one bucket and windsor ale yeast for the other - I'll let you all know how they compare. BTW the blue corn ends up being purple after the mash/boil and when added to the full mash yeilds almost a "blush" colored beer... we'll see how it tastes in a month and I'll let y'all know. ===== BIBIDI ! Brew It Bottle It Drink It Carlos Benitez - Green Monster Brewing Bainbridge, PA, U.S.A. Return to table of contents
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