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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Heat elements ("Mike Brennan")
  yeast for belgian strong ale (ensmingr)
  Siebel Week: Carbonation Rates (David Lamotte)
  Yeast Microscopy ("Dave and Joan King")
  Tomato Sauce (Randy Ricchi)
  BCJP Judges ("Tom Byrnes")
  RE: Monitoring CFC outflow temp (Jeff Renner)
  fuller golden pride info ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Re: Tomato Sauce (Jeff Renner)
  re: hop bag use (Paul Kensler)
  Re: Origin of Common Expressions and Practices ("Larry Bristol")
  sour wit (Jeff Renner)
  'golden monkey' yeast (ensmingr)
  further to hsa/oxidation silliness ("Robin Griller")
  re: silliness & hsa ("Steve Alexander")
  re: Tomato Sauce ("Steve Alexander")
  Siebel Week - Municipal water treatment ("AOB Moderator")
  Siebel Week - Tank Design ("AOB Moderator")
  Siebel Week - Yeast ("AOB Moderator")
  Siebel Week - Bulk malt delivery ("AOB Moderator")
  Siebel Week - Gaskets for keg cleaners ("AOB Moderator")
  RE: Hop Bag Use (Steve Funk)
  Cap and 2112 yeasts (carlos benitez)


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Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:31:42 -0500
From: "Mike Brennan" <brewdude at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Heat elements

Anyone have a good source for All stainless steel or all brass water heating
elements.  I'm looking for 120 volt 1500 watts or better, screw in type.
The ones I got from the local home improvement center are supposed to be
stainless but the centers corrode significantly and have to be wire brushed
each time before use.  I'm just using them for a hot water tank that I set
on a timer so my water is ready when I wake up on brew day.



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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 01:41:57 -0400
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: yeast for belgian strong ale

Greetings,

I want to brew a 'Belgian tripel' and need some suggestions for
yeast. I especially like the earthy/musky character present in
Victory's 'Golden Monkey' (see:
http://www.victorybeer.com/beers/golden_monkey_tripel_ale.htm ).
Which yeast should I use?

Some possibilities include:
White Labs 500 (Trappist Ale)
White Labs 530 (Abbey Ale)
White Labs 550 (Belgian Ale)

Wyeast 3787 (Trappist high gravity)
Wyeast 1214 (Belgian Ale)
Wyeast 1762 (Belgian Abbey)

I'm leaning toward Wyeast 1214, but would appreciate your
suggestions.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr




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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 18:24:56 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Siebel Week: Carbonation Rates

Thanks to all concerned for the brilliant opportunity.

My question concerns the influence of wort gravity on rate of CO2
dissolution during carbonation.

I understand how pressure and temperature affect the amount of CO2
dissolved at equilibrium, but have noticed that high gravity beers (~8 w %
alcohol) SEEM to take much longer to carbonate.  Equally light beers (~3 %)
appear to gas up very quickly.

Is there any information on how the rate of solution of CO2 is affected by
the composition of the beer.

Thanks again,
David Lamotte,
Wondering, down under in Newcastle, NSW, Australia.


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Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:49:10 -0400
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Yeast Microscopy

Troy,

I'm a seasoned Microscopist, Metallurgist, and home brewer.  I'd like to be
able to look at my friend's the yeast, but don't know beans about
microbiology or even organic chemistry.

Could you help us (there must be more than just me) understand how to use a
universal microscope to examine our buddies the yeasts?  Thanks a bunch,

         Dave King





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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:19:47 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <randyr at up.net>
Subject: Tomato Sauce

Martin Brungard asks what type of beer would complement Italian foods.
For what it's worth, in his "Beer Companion", Michael Jackson suggests
the Vienna style to accompany pizza.



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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:45:11 -0400
From: "Tom Byrnes" <kmstfb2 at exis.net>
Subject: BCJP Judges

If you are a BCJP Ranked Judge living in or near
the Tidewater Virginia area,please contact me 
directly. I am looking for a qualified person
to lead a BCJP study session and beer education
to help beer club members  improve their
judging skills.

Cheers Tom


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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:45:36 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Monitoring CFC outflow temp

Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net> of Lake Jackson, TX wrote:

>Jeff Renner has a good idea.
>After the boil, he circulates the wort through the CFC and back into the
>kettle until it gets down to pitching temp.

Actually, I use an immersion chiller, but there's no reason it 
shouldn't work with a CFC.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:57:49 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: fuller golden pride info

I got an offline question about Fullers Golden Pride barleywine.

Here's the brewing info off the bottle: 8.5% ABV, pale and crystal malts,
Northdown, Challenger, and Target hoppings.

>From the Barleywine book by the AHA, 1.086 OG, 1.020 FG, 38 IBU (I tasted
more than this however so I doubt it), pale malt only, 8.5%ABV, first
runnings only with seocnd runnings going towards London Pride.

The pale only malt doesn't seem quite right based on the color/flavor of the
barleywine unless they carmelize the initial runnings or use caramel or a
crystal malt extract to bring the color up.

Its a tasty brew for sure and bottled in 20 oz bottles. As far as I know
only available in Europe and possibly only the UK in select areas.  I did
not see it at any of the Fullers pubs I visited near London that did have
the rest of the other Fullers products including cask London Pride (yummy!).

Pete Czerpak
Albany, NY


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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:54:18 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Tomato Sauce

Martin_Brungard at URSCorp.com writes from Tallahassee, FL:

>In my decidedly unscientific research on beer pairings with food, I've come
>to the conclusion that very few beers pair well with a tomato sauce based
>foods.
>
>I enjoy red wines with various Italian foods.  The acid and tannins of the
>wine seem to complement the tomato sauce and its acidity.
>
>Does anyone have a suggestion for a beer style that goes well with this
>type of food.

Michael Jackson writes (Beer Companion, p. 205):

"Unless the brew is of the Vienna style, the partnership of pizza and 
beer is merely Italian-American popular romance.  With this superbly 
suited style, it is a love affair consummated."

Dave Berry  is less particular:

"Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind 
is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, 
but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza."

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 06:09:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: hop bag use

Paul,
Are you using any sort of filtering device on the
inlet of your racking tube?  If not, that's probably
where I'd start.  I'd highly recommend getting ahold
of a Zymico Bazooka or Bazooka T.  I've used my
Bazooka T for several batches and it works great for
filtering out whole hops.  I think the key is that it
has an enormous surface area plus relatively large
holes in the screen.  When I occasionally use pellets,
the large holes in the screen let some of the smaller
pellet bits through but overall it does a great job.

Also, I'd recommend letting your wort settle for a few
minutes - 10 or 15 - before running off.  For me, this
really helps settle the hops so they act as a nice
filter bed for other hops and trub.

Finally, does your racking arm have a ball valve or
some other means of controlling the flow rate?  If you
suddenly open your outflow you're more likely to get
sudden suction on the inlet of your racking tube... 
better to slowly crack it open and slowly increase to
full throttle.


Hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 09:35:23 -0500
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Origin of Common Expressions and Practices

On Tue, 14 May 2002 09:24:02 -0600, "Mike Racette"
<mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com> queries:

> These are really good, Larry. Definitely worth forwarding on to others.

Thanks, Mike!

> I always wondered where the expression "Hair of the dog that bit 
> you" came from when associated with having a beer (or whatever) 
> the morning following a little binge drinking.  Anyone know where 
> this one originates?

Well, here is one possibility:

A woman's miniature schnauzer had an infection in its ear.  The vet
told her that it was due to an ingrown hair and that the best treatment
would be to remove the hair with a depilatory cream.  The women went to
a drug store and asked the druggist for assistance in selecting an
appropriate product.  He went on about how some were better for use on
legs and how some were gentler and better for removing facial hair.  He
then said, "May I ask where you intend to use this?"

She replied, "Well, it's for my schnauzer."

The druggist then said, "OK, but you shouldn't ride a bike for two
weeks."

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps a better explanation is that "the hair of the dog that bit you"
goes back to the old belief that the hair of a dog that bites someone
could be used as an antidote against the bad effects of the bite.  By
extension, another drink or two after a drinking binge would be the
cure for a hangover.

Reference: Dr. James C. Briggs (http://www.briggs13.fsnet.co.uk)
There are also explanations for some of the other phrases mentioned
thus far.


Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX   AR=[1093.6,223.2]
http://www.doubleluck.com




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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:03:19 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: sour wit

Byron <Partner at Netdirect.net> writes from aobut 200 miles SW of here:

>Gentleman and Ladies, the question I pose to you is ... since I had begun a
>soured mash.. what might I had continued, to make a style of beer?

A wit!  They are sour.  What you did was what some brewers do 
deliberately.  Graham Sanders of Australia makes his famous Tropical 
Flower Wit by souring a portion (15%?) of his mash for two days, then 
adding it to the main mash.

My guess is that the pH of your mash may have been too low (<5.0) for 
good conversion, but you could have raised it with chalk.  You'd have 
needed pH paper for that.  But I think I would have tasted the mash 
first, and tried mashing it.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:26:08 -0400
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: 'golden monkey' yeast

In case anyone is interested in culturing yeast from a bottle of
Victory's 'Golden Monkey' for fermenting a homebrew, I just got
this message from the Victory brewmaster:

"The Golden Monkey goes through primary fermentation with a
Belgian top fermenting strain. It is cold conditioned with our
standard ale strain. It is dosed in the bright beer tank with our
lager strain for bottle conditioning. So, the final bottle may
have 3 strains in it. Therefore, drawing yeast from the bottle
will not make for stable fermentation results."

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr



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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 12:37:11 -0400
From: "Robin Griller" <robin_g at ica.net>
Subject: further to hsa/oxidation silliness

Hi everyone,

Sorry to point out the obvious, but for anyone freeking out about the
horrible damage they are doing to their beer by *not* mashing it in a CO2
only environment, *not* boiling under a float, etc., here's a quote from
one of today's Siebel postings:

"As a general comment the concern over beer oxidation can be carried to
extremes. Many of the world's 'classic' beers were originally brewed in
ways that were not concerned about oxidation's effects. In fact it is
probable that some of the flavor characteristics of these beers were a
result of oxidation! Since oxygen is seen today as a dire enemy of beer
quality there is very little discussion about possible positive taste
effects with certain styles of beer. The homebrewer is fortunate in that
they can experiment with this on a small scale and see whether there may be
some styles where some oxidation is OK. The presence of yeast in most
homebrewing situations is one of the great protections against oxidation's
effects. The modern concern over oxidation has really been the result of
its obvious negative taste effects as the vast majority of the world's beers
become lighter in body and taste. In many of these beers there is no place
for any off flavors to hide! We also know more about the subject and the
large brewers can afford the technology to keep oxygen pickup to a minimum -
from raw material handling to the final container."

The conclusion I would reach from this is: if you want to brew colourless
tasteless crap (i.e. megaswill) worry. Otherwise relax and leave your beer
alone, it's doing just fine as it is! :)

Robin







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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:01:16 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: silliness & hsa

mjandrsn writes ...

>The debate is futile: One insists on being right, the other
>just wants to be happy.

I can't agree.  LBristol takes every point twists it bass-ackward and posts
a bizzaro world response.  Just in case anyone is still interested I feel
it's necessary to comment on the errors.  N ot a debate.

I suggested comparing a cool-stored vs a heat processed version of  HB for
several reasons -
/ Not all beer shows the same staling flavors,
/Many staling flavors are unfamiliar to HBers as such,
/Comparative tasting can reveal far more subtle flavor differences
/A taster sensitized to these stale flavors may more readily recognize them
in properly handled HB.
/It may reveal some of the specific staling flavors of the particular HB
sample.

Bristol's response is that the test is irrelevant because a/ his beers
aren't experimental and b/  someone in Belgium has detected one single
staling product in a heat-aged beer.   If anyone can support that conclusion
with a logical argument I'll send you some belgian beers for the effort.

I also suggested that HSA causes color (and I believe flavor) changes which
are immediately perceptible in the wort and beer.  That these problems are
almost universal in HB and yet can be reduced by the use of sulphites and
oxygen exclusion and that if comparative brews were made I believe a flavor
difference would be clearcut.

Bristol's response was an excursion into his world of witches, hobgoblins
and illogic, and the irrelevant comment that his beers taste fine therefore
can't have oxidation damage.  The only reason that Larry Bristol (or anyone
else) can't see the 'witches' in his beer is his stubborn refusal to look
 .... to look  by performing any of the simple experiments.  How could Larry
make any sensible comment when his reading is restricted to a single paper
and he refuses to test the issue by experiment ?

Larry did post some quantitative data that shows that a conventional beer
(no CO2 mash purge, good break removal)  with accelerated aging had ~60%
less trans-2-nonenal than a "naturally aged" sample (20C for 90 days).
Larry missed that a previous table shows exactly the opposite ;  ~60%
*higher* nonenal for the accelerated aging sample.   What is the relevance ?
To Larry it's that no control is needed when comparing beers !!  Obviously
whether there is a difference or not says nothing about the specifics you'll
find in your own beer with your own tongue.  The lambics for logic offer
applies here too.

I agree with Pivo that the gold standard is to perform control brews with
and without HSA and then taste these over a period of time.  Pivo forgot to
mention that it requires a lot of work and a bit of luck to make two beers
which are not distinguishable by triangle test.  Not nearly as simple a his
trub test and one could throw stones at that one too.

On a less brew-relevant note Larry says he never asked for my applause.
Actually he asked that I "congratulate" folks  who make unsupported claims.
I guess the linguist can't associate 'applause' and 'congratulations'.
Jeff Renner's long list of  etymological gaffes missed "cunning".

Sorry to all for the length - next time I'll just point out what Larry got
right.

=====

Robin Griller thinks my comments silly ....

>[...] no one else seems to have
>noticed how silly some of the claims re hsa have been, [...]
>
>"You've never had an ale pick up sweet caramel notes, [...]

All I can say Robin is that you are pretty inexperienced with ales staling
or you aren't attuned to the development of this flavor flaw.  The
development of a strongly sweet caramel-like note is very common in ales.
The silliness is that you are not distinguishing caramel flavors present in
the fresh beer from those which I said develop after kegging.  Here is what
those silly University guys at M&BS write ... "Flavour stability .... Ales
become distinctly sweet with molasses-type cloying characters."  They
describe this in various places as "sweet-taste", and "toffee-like aroma and
flavour".  I have two other papers that reference this flavor development -
one demonstrates a relation with beer ITT levels and another measures the
development (continual increase) in this flavor over time by triangle test.
M&BS associates this most with ales made from light colored & low/medium
gravity wort.  OTOH they report stouts develop stale cheesy flavors.

Let me turn this around.  Larry - what changes DO you see in your ales as
they age ?   Could you describe what you are sensing as they age ?

=====

>From the comments on HSA and some of the questions to Seibel I can see there
are a lot of library cards gathering dust and search engines sitting idle.

 -S




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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:24:08 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Tomato Sauce

>In my decidedly unscientific research on beer pairings with food, I've come
>to the conclusion that very few beers pair well with a tomato sauce based
>foods.

Beers never seem to match tomato sauce and I too think it's the
acidity factor.  M.Jackson wrote something about marzens and
pizza pairing up - but it's an awkward pairing to me. Pesto and
alfredo sauce works much better w/ beer - tho' still not a
favorite.

 -S




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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:00:50 -0600
From: "AOB Moderator" <moderator at aob.org>
Subject: Siebel Week - Municipal water treatment


From: Doug Macnair <Doug.Macnair at Redhook.com>
Subject: Municipal water treatment


My question for the Siebel week forum concerns municipal water
treatments and their potential impact on the brewing process.  Our local
municipal water works informed me that they will be implementing a
corrosion inhibitor program using a 50/50 blend of Poly and Ortho
Phosphates dosed into the final water downstream of the filtration
plant.  I am aware of the calcium- phosphate reactions in a mash and its
importance in acidifying the mash.  Do these other forms of phosphate
react in the same way?  Is a few ppm increase in the water worth
worrying about a brewing salt adjustment?  Any possible effects post
brewhouse from these treatments?
I look forward to responses from those with more water chemistry
background than I, which will not be very difficult by the way.

Doug MacNair






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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:04:41 -0600
From: "AOB Moderator" <moderator at aob.org>
Subject: Siebel Week - Tank Design

From: Caleb McLaughlin <cmcbrew808 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Siebel Week - Tank Design

Aloha Panel,

What is it about the configuration of a tall, skinny, dish-bottom tank (120
bbl) that makes it a bad design for fermentation? Besides the fact of
"cone-bottom" being better for yeast handling.

Also, does anyone know the name/contact# of a glycol specialist that has
experience with sizing up for a breweries growth?

Thanks in advance for everyone's involvement with the Forum this week,

Caleb McLaughlin
Rogue Ales
ph#541-867-3660
cmcbrew808 at hotmail.com




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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:02:22 -0600
From: "AOB Moderator" <moderator at aob.org>
Subject: Siebel Week - Yeast


From: Caleb McLaughlin <cmcbrew808 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Siebel Week - Yeast


Hello Panel,

I am looking for any information /experience(s) with autolyzing or "killing"
spent yeast on a large scale for use as a safe, high protein food source for
cattle. Any info. on a practical design/procedure to achieve best results
would be beneficial.

Thanks again!

Caleb McLaughlin
Rogue Ales
ph#541-867-3660
cmcbrew808 at hotmail.com




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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:18:22 -0600
From: "AOB Moderator" <moderator at aob.org>
Subject: Siebel Week - Bulk malt delivery

From: John J. Hall <jjhall at gooseisland.com>
Subject: Siebel Week - Bulk malt delivery

Does anyone have any information about the optimum  PSI/ Pumping speed
during a bulk malt delivery?  We currently pump up to our silo at 5 psi, but
I've heard of other breweries that won't pump over 3 psi and some that pump
as high as 10 to 15 psi.  We've heard many different reasons for the
different speeds.  Too fast, you'll get shearing, too slow, the hose isn't
packed and again you'll get shearing.  Anyone have any practical experience
or horror stories to relate?

John J. Hall
Head Brewer
Goose Island Beer Co.
jjhall2gooseisland.com





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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:11:06 -0600
From: "AOB Moderator" <moderator at aob.org>
Subject: Siebel Week - Gaskets for keg cleaners

From: Brian Owens
Subject: Siebel Week - Gaskets for keg cleaners

Hi,

I'm writting to find out where I can get gaskets for my keg cleaner that
will hold up longer.  I am using steam to clean kegs and the rubber gaskets
that fit in the hex nut that attatches to the sanky are not strong enough.
I'm looking for somthing that will hold up a little better under the steam
pressure and temperature.  I'm thankful for any tips or reccommendations.

Thanks,

Brian Owens brian1 at peoplepc.com
O'Fallon Brewery
O'Fallon MO



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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:16:24 -0700
From: Steve Funk <steve at hheco.com>
Subject: RE: Hop Bag Use

Paul Stutzman asked about hop particles clogging up the works.  Well
Paul, I also use a Sanke keg as a boil kettle but I modified it with a
SS valve AND and perforated SS false bottom.  The backside of the valve
has a tube that bends 90 degrees and sets approximately 1/4" from the
bottom of the concave bottom of the kettle.  The false bottom hinges in
half and has a hole that the tube passes through.  I use whole leaf or
plug hops and when I'm ready to draw off the wort at the end of the
boil, I recirculate a few pints first using a peristaltic tubing pump.
This causes the hop material to settle down onto the false bottom and
form a sort of filter bed leaving the drawn off wort crystal clear as it
enters my CFC.  It may be worth it for you modify your kettle too.
Alternatively, use a SS choreboy scrubbie pad over the end of your
pickup tube.  Sorry, no other help about hop utilization other than to
say I know hop bags will reduce it.
- --
Cheers,
Steve Funk
Stevenson, WA
Home of CRGB
Columbia River Gorge (home)Brewing




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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 19:21:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: carlos benitez <greenmonsterbrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: Cap and 2112 yeasts

Hi everybody,

   I just finished brewing my first attempt at a cap -

I don't have true lagering ability so in actuality it
is CACA.  Unfortunately, I can't follow a recipe to
save my Soul - I want to, but I can't help tweaking it
 - so my recipes are never historically correct. In
this one I used 5lb of 100% blue corn meal and 15 lbs
of pale 2 row malt with saaz hops and some Mt Hood
thrown in for flavor...  I used wyeast 2112 for one
bucket and windsor ale yeast for the other  - I'll let
you all know how they compare.  BTW the blue corn ends
up being purple after the mash/boil and when added to
the full mash yeilds almost a "blush" colored beer... 
we'll see how it tastes in a month and I'll let y'all know.

=====
BIBIDI !
        Brew It Bottle It Drink It 
       Carlos Benitez - Green Monster Brewing
        Bainbridge, PA,  U.S.A.



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