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Contents:
  Phosphate Corrosion Inhibitors (AJ)
  hsa and heating elements ("the Ludwigs")
  Seibel and First Wort Hopping ("John Adsit")
  re: wort boiling ("Tom and Katherine Meier")
  Corked Belgian ales ("Groenigen,  J.W. van")
  Cask breathers and Conicals (KC Jones)
  re: Zymurgy Magazine Rubbermaid Bulkhead Plans (John Schnupp)
  RE: Black ale update & a question about gravity ("Steven Parfitt")
  Siebel Response: Water ("Tobias Fischborn")
  Western NY Homebrew Competition ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Re: CAPS (Jeff Renner)
  insulating mash tun, rims (Rob Dewhirst)
  re: Zymurgy Magazine Rubbermaid Bulkhead Plans ("TED MAJOR")
  FW: Keg isulation..... ("Smith,Brian H")
  Fitting placement on Keg Based Systems ("John R. Prather")
  Re: Bulkhead Assembly in Zymurgy (John Palmer)
  tripel yeasts ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Yeast for Belgian Strong Ale (LJ Vitt)
  Re: expressions (Bill Wible)
  In search of Ball lock keg fitting ("John Misrahi")
  Siebel response - Troy Hager Yeast Viability and Pitching ("Tobias Fischborn")
  more complaints (brewjohn4)
  Re: Slow Starting Fermentation ("Greg Smith")
  Zymurgy saison recipe (Ken Pendergrass)
  Bell's Best Brown (Ken Pendergrass)
  Dehumidifier H2O ("Partner")
  Siebel Reply - Homebrew Oxidation ("Kirk Annand")
  Siebel Reply - Hop Bitterness ("Kirk Annand")
  FW: Siebel Week-Lyn Kruger ("Rob Moline")


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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 02:24:21 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Phosphate Corrosion Inhibitors

No need to disturb the A.O.B. A.J. is a regular reader of the HBD but
not much of an expert on polyphosphates. My first question to the water
supplier would be "What is it you are trying to prevent the corrosion
of?" and the reason for this is that phosphate is often used as a
corrosion inhibitor when lead piping is around from the old days but it
can also be used to protect iron and copper pipe. I guess the real
question would then be as to what the concentration of lead in the
delivered water is and if it isn't pretty darn low I'd be thinking about
filtration to get it down to where I was comfortable with it.

That issue aside, the dosage of phosphates for corrosion control is
usually pretty small and it is intended that it will react with the pipe
material to form a protective layer over the piping so that some of it
is consumed but enough must be put into the water to reach all parts of
the distribution system which may require protection. It would be
worthwhile to know the level of phosphates that you might expect to find
at your tap and if the supplier can't tell you that there are simple
tests that can be done on samples of the water at your tap.

The extent of the reaction with calcium will depend on how much calcium
is in the water i.e. how hard it is. If the water is "hard" then it is
quite possible that hydroxyapatite will form and I'd guess that
suppliers wouldn't use phosphate in hard water for that reason
especially as they tend to raise pH when corrosion inhibition is being
planned.I'm guessing, therefore, that Doug's water may be reasonably
soft requiring calcium supplementation for most brewing applications. In
this case the small amount of phosphate added for corrosion control is
not likely to require an adjustment to the calcium addition as only
small amounts of calcium will be precipitated by combination with the
phosphates.

This is one of those areas in water treatment where analysis and
prediction often fall short and the actual treatment settled upon is
determined by operating a pilot system. Thus the general comments I've
made here may not apply at all in this particular case. A chat with one
of the water service's chemists is probably called for here.

A.J.



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 22:54:57 -0700
From: "the Ludwigs" <mwludwig at tqci.net>
Subject: hsa and heating elements

Robin Griller says:

>Sorry to point out the obvious, but for anyone freeking out about the
>horrible damage they are doing to their beer by *not* mashing it in a
CO2
>only environment, *not* boiling under a float, etc., here's a quote
from
>one of today's Siebel postings:

The point is with the flavor difference and change over time. Guess I'm
curious what they really are (I'll be the judge). If you're happy with
whatever you end up with, great! Personally, I appreciate the
suggestions provided by Steve Alexander. Namely, I like the idea of a
mash float and have an idea I'll try out sometime when I get it. Float
will also help heat retention, BTW, and that would be  around 50% of my
reason for the float. Never thought of the float idea before, but like
it. 

Mike Brennen asks:

>Anyone have a good source for All stainless steel or all brass water
>heating
>elements.  I'm looking for 120 volt 1500 watts or better, screw in
type.

Try here:
http://www.heating-elements.com/

Cheers,
When I'm done with my basement renovation, maybe I can actually brew
again. 
Dave Ludwig
Flat Iron Virtual Brewery
Southern MD

- ---
[This E-mail was scanned for viruses at tqci.net]



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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 22:23:31 -0600
From: "John Adsit" <jadsit at attbi.com>
Subject: Seibel and First Wort Hopping

Seibel tells us:

> The FWH schedule that you mention looks like a variation of this 'classic'
> hop addition schedule.  I see no harm or advantage from it.

And the illusion is shattered.

These Gods of Brewing don't have the slightest clue what First Wort Hopping
is.  What a disappointment.  You have to hold everything else they say
suspect after an answer like that.

John Adsit
Boulder, CO
jadsit at attbi.com




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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 01:29:09 -0500
From: "Tom and Katherine Meier" <meier331 at bellsouth.net>
Subject: re: wort boiling


Contrary to some opinions, the amount of wort evaporation is almost
exclusively related to the net heat input to the wort.  Any means
you can use to improve this will increase the boil-off rate. (high temp 
insulation on the pot sides, a windscreen that directs gases up the side 
of the kettle, etc. etc.)

For those that don't believe me on this one (you hear me Todd S.?) then
set a boiling hot pot in front of a fan with the flame set low enough to 
keep it hot, but not boil.  Then wait and see how much evaporates
due to the fan.   

You don't put a fan over your rice to boil off the water faster, don't
put one over your kettle  :)    Good luck with the larger batches, 
I'm sure there are many other challenges to overcome, but for this
one maybe the answer is a split boil or a larger burner.

Now about these Bob Klein descriptions....
May 21st - "Aass is tasty and distinctive"
Thanks for the insight Bob, don't mind if I just take your
word for it!

 -Tom Meier




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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:37:54 +0200
From: "Groenigen, J.W. van" <J.W.vanGroenigen at Alterra.wag-ur.nl>
Subject: Corked Belgian ales


Bob Boland (hey Bob, do you have any Dutch relatives? I have friends with
the same family name) remarks:

"By the way, I don't believe that musty, earthy flavor is a 
typical characteristic of Belgian yeasts, or the beers in Belgium.  It 
appears to me (and others) to be a flavor contributed by aging in contact 
with natural corks"

That is exactly my experience. I have lived for two years in California
before moving back to the Netherlands, and I was amazed how different, musty
earthy, some of my well-known favourites (Chimay, Corsendonk, Duvel) tasted
over there. In fact, the cork flavour seems to dominate a bit, giving these
beers more similar tastes than I am used to. The capped versions over here
taste less musty, probably due to shorter aging. In the Netherlands, and
probably also in Belgium, you can also buy these beers in 30 CL bottles with
a cap. In fact, that's the most common package. I think I prefer the capped
version, I think you can taste the unique character of the individual beers
better.

Jan Willem


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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 03:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: KC Jones <beerbeer95648 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Cask breathers and Conicals

I have a 12.2 gallon conical from BBMB, and was
wondering if anyone has attempted to use a cask
breather to allow for inert gas displacement when
racking to cornies.  I was planning on using a
breather anytime I withdrew from the fermenter(trub,
yeast, samples, etc.).  I would however wait to hook
up the breather until the beer had mostly finished
just incase any fob made its way in (they are
difficult to clean, and tend to fail if beer is
allowed in).  Cask breathers have a built in 'soft
spile' which can release the excess pressure which
could be useful in a fermenter which is not designed
to be used under pressure.  Additionally, they only
displace up to atmospheric pressure.  In any case any
suggestions would be appreciated.

KC Sare
Edinburgh



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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 05:02:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Zymurgy Magazine Rubbermaid Bulkhead Plans

From: "doug klon" <klonyklon at hotmail.com>
>Has anyone made the bulkhead fitting for Rubbermaid/Gott
>picnic coolers from the plans in the recent issue of

No, but I did do this:

My first "bulkhead" was a 3/8" NPT close nipple using the stock grommet.  I had
to get creative with orings and washers for the seal on the outside of the
cooler.

I finally got sick of dealing with and found that it is possible to squeeze
another stock grommet in the hole from the outside of the cooler.  A piece of
1/2" copper then fits nice and tight.  You could also use any standard bulkhead
fitting (that fits thru the grommet) because there is a good rubber seal on
each side.  Call Rubbermaid to order the grommets.  They are cheap, buy a dozen
and you'll have a lifetime supply.  Sorry but I do not have their phone number,
I thought it was in my Palm but it is not.  A web search with a decent engine
should send you in the right direction.




=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Bumblebee



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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:15:35 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Black ale update & a question about gravity

Miikkali Queries about botteling:

>As I earlier reported on the HBD, I started my first ale 1,5 weeks ago.
>It's a black ale from a kit, with added Cascade hops for aroma. I was
>worried because the airlock never started bubbling. It came out that >the 
>lid of the fermenting bucket is leaking.
 ... Snip...
Glad you found your problem. This is not uncommon with buckets.

>On Saturday, after 9 days of fermenting, I opened the lid, took some of
>the wort (with a sanitized spoon) to a glass and measured the wort's
>specific gravity.
>Flavor: First and foremost - *whew!* - it was not spoiled as I had >feared. 
>It tasted fresh! So the fermentation had started allright. The >wort tasted 
>like a young English real ale, something like a yeasty ESB
 ....SNIP....
Congrats on your beer. It sounds like it is going to be great.

>Gravity: The meter said 1.020 (wort temp was around +20C, +68F) after >nine 
>whole days after pitching the yeast. This is a Black ale and the >OG was 
>1.048. Is this slow a fermentation normal?
 .....SNIP....
Not really uncommon. Fermentation rates can varry considerably depending on 
Oxigenation rate, temperature, yeast strain, pitching rate, and probably 
other variables.
Also, fermentation is not a linear process. It takes longer to drop the last 
ten points than the first 30 or more....

>I plan to bottle on Wednesday or Thursday, at which point the beer has 
> >been fermenting for 13 or 14 days. If the gravity is still way over 
> >1.010 on Wednesday, should I wait before bottling?

Last time I did that, I ended up with "Bottle Bombs"!

Give it at least three weeks before you bottle. Check your gravity, and 
don't bottle till it is stable for a week is the best advise.

When you add almost a cup of sugar to a five gallon batch, you are only 
bringing the gravity up two to three points. If that is enough to heavily 
carbonate beer, think what ten points could do to it!

The beer may end up with a higher gravity that 1.010, but you need to be 
sure it is finished fermenting before you add priming sugar and bottle.

Best wishes.Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck






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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:30:06 +0000
From: "Tobias Fischborn" <fischborn at hotmail.com>
Subject: Siebel Response: Water


Micah asked......

Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 07:35:13 -0500
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com>
Subject: Siebel Week question
My question goes back to an old hbd thread (at least 10 years ago)about 
yeast starters and rapid yeast growth. A number of people were involved in 
trying different some methods for increasing the volume of yeast in a short 
time. One of the annomolies noted from these hbd experiments was that the 
water used to make solutions
for yeast feeding impacted the results of the experimenters at differing 
locations, using the same methods. The best results (yeast growth vs time) 
were obtained by hbders in agrarian areas using untreated well water. The 
effect was attributed to the high
content of nitrogenous materials often found in agraian water supplies, and 
dubbed, 'the grave yard effect' (ironicly by G.Fix).
What would like to know is, has any 'real' research be done along these 
lines and if so indentified the mechanism at work in both the water and 
yeast, and a way to duplicate it?
Micah Millspaw - brewer at large

Forbes: The best answer here is probably no. Or at least no study I am aware 
of.  The nature of the question does explain why beers are often referred to 
as styles.

Tobias can better explain this part;-).

If you wanted to do this scientifically you would have to obtain samples 
from many different water supplies and test them in one place, or in many 
places with the same procedures. Or you could use a series of synthetic 
water supplies (defined media).
It's not just nitrogenous material that will effect the yeast but other 
nutrients and/or inhibitors in the water.  In essence the effect I think you 
observed was one of improved yeast nutrition in certain areas.

Tobias: The beer styles Forbes is refering to are related to the hardness of 
water. Typical styles are Pilsner style (very soft water, which results in 
light elegant beers with emphasis on hop character), Munich style (medium 
hard water, mainly Hydrogen carbonates, results in dark beers), Dortmund 
style (very hard water, mainly non carbonates, results in Exports), Burton 
style (hard water mainly sulphates, results in Burton Ales).

Regarding the relation of water quality and yeast/fermentation performance I 
do not know of any extensive studies. As Forbes mentioned above it is not 
only nitrogenous compounds that effect the fermentation but also other 
"stimulating" or inhibiting substances.





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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:37:48 -0400
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: Western NY Homebrew Competition

Hello,

I realize this only applies to a small fraction of this readership, my
apologies to the rest.

The final results of the Western NY Homebrew Competition are in and posted
at www.niagarabrewers.org .  Judging of the approximately 250 entries was
completed on Saturday, and the results posted Monday night.  (In the past
they were posted by Sunday, but the webmaster was out of town!)  All entries
were judged by at least two BJCP and one apprentice/novice judge.

In the future, for those of you interested in sending your beer to a well
organized and run competition, please keep this one in mind.

It's a great competition to enter for those of you that enjoy quality judge
feedback and nearly instant gratification!

Cheers!
Todd Snyder
Buffalo, NY



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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:47:49 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: CAPS

Kirk Annand of the Siebel Institute of Technology asked:

>I have been looking at HBD for a little over a week and I see the term 'CAP'
>often.  What does this stand for?  It is an abbreviation that I am not
>familiar with.

As the originator of the term in 1995, I'll answer.  It stands for 
"Classic American Pilsner," also called pre-prohibition American 
lager, although I include early post-prohibition American lager in 
the category.  I had a very popular keg of it in Cleveland last month 
at the MCAB hospitality suite - I am very sorry you didn't get a 
chance to taste it.  I was very happy with it and it was very popular.

It is essentially the beer that was brewed by German and Bohemian 
immigrant brewers beginning in the later 19th Century when faced with 
domestic ingredients.  It in particular includes the use of cereal 
adjuncts and domestic hops, at least for bittering.

This is the flavorful North American lager that has been reduced in 
flavor over the last decades, especially since, oh, say WWII, as 
brewers discovered that lighter, less bitter beers sold better, 
probably because people would drink more and people who didn't like 
flavorful beers drank them.  (This doesn't seem to have been a 
problem in Germany or Bohemia).

While not all North American lagers of a century ago or so were in 
the Pilsner style, it seems that this style was the most popular.  It 
is certainly the progenitor of today's mass market North American 
lagers.

I was inspired by articles by George Fix in Zymurgy and Brewing 
Techniques, Ben Jankowski in BT, and others to try to recreate and 
resurrect this wonderful style.  My call to arms was the article 
"Reviving the Classic American Pilsner - A Shamefully Neglected 
Style" in Brewing Techniques, September/October 1995 
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue3.5/renner.html 
(see also the Fix and Jankowski articles at that site).

I have progressed in my thoughts since this early, somewhat naive 
article, but it got the ball rolling.  The style became recognized 
for competition in AHA and BJCP (Beer Judge Certification Program) 
competitions, thanks to the work of several other amateur brewers. 
It has since become very popular with home brewers and has taken many 
medals in lager categories, and even some of Best of Show awards.

I am not aware of any commercial brewers who are regularly brewing 
what I would call a classic version, although Capitol 1900 
(Wisconsin) professes to be an example.  I find it too light. 
Doemens-trained Fred Scheer brewed a batch at Nashville's Bosco 
Brewpub last summer and will do another batch for American Beer Month 
this July.  Fred has tasted my CAPs and is a fan of the style.  Quite 
a remarkable thing for a third generation German brewer!

Since 1995, I have continued to research this style and refine my own 
brewing of it.  I have relied heavily on the 1902 American Handy Book 
of the Brewing, Malting and Auxiliary Trades (on-line at 
http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/Wahl/ ) and other primary sources.  I 
summarized my (then) latest thoughts in Sept/Oct 2000 Zymurgy in the 
article "The revival of the Classic American Pilsner."  I will be 
glad to send you a copy of this article.

Even since then I have made a few further minor modifications.  I 
like to brew to a target of 12.5P with 22% corn (by weight) with a 
cereal mash, and a bitterness in the mid to upper 30s IBU, using 
Cluster hops for bitterness and noble hops for flavor and aroma.  I 
mash-in the main mash at 145F for the first rest and add the cereal 
mash to aim at 158F for a second rest (although this usually takes 
some additional heat).  Final gravity is 2.5P.

I add my flavor hops to the first wort rather than a last 15 minute 
addition following the article in Brauwelt International, by Preis, 
Nuremberg, and Mitter; vol IV, p. 308, 1995 (see a summary of this 
technique at http://brewery.org/library/1stwort.html).  This is a 
wonderful method that I gather from your earlier answer that you may 
not be entirely familiar with.  It seems to add hop flavor that is 
stabilized and is not boiled out, as well as a pleaseing bitterness. 
This method was apparently used in Germany 100 years ago and then 
lost.  Although I can find no reference to its being used in North 
America then, it is entirely possible since many brewers here were 
trained in Germany.

I hope this helps, and perhaps inspires you to try brewing a batch of 
this wonderful style.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:40:03 -0500
From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: insulating mash tun, rims


>
>I called the major names advertised in
>Zymurgy, my email list & from a quick internet
>search to find a wrap-around insulator for the
>kegs. Several of the places I called couldn't
>understand exactly what I wanted & at the
>very least, didn't have it. No one had anything
>in this regard. The closest I  found was a
>jacket for a corny keg to keep it cool outside
>the freezer. I was told one solution was to
>wrap plastic around the  kegs & it would retain
>heat better.

See if you can find sheets of Rubatex.  This is a closed cell foam product 
used to insulate pipes (much denser than the stuff sold in hardware stores) 
but it also comes in sheets.  Made by RBX Corp (rbxcorp.com).  Grainger 
sells it.

It's easy to work with and isn't very expensive. I've used it to make corny 
jackets and insulate my mash tun...

<http://hairydogbrewery.com/equip/img/mashtun.jpg>

I like it because it washes off easily and doesn't retain liquid.  A little 
bit of contact adhesive and velcro makes a removable jacket.



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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:11:06 -0400
From: "TED MAJOR" <tidmarsh at charter.net>
Subject: re: Zymurgy Magazine Rubbermaid Bulkhead Plans

I haven't seen the Zymurgy plans so I can't comment on 
those, but I can describe what I've done.

I use made a bulkhead fitting from a 1/4" NPT close 
nipple, brass washers, 1/4" NPT ball valve, and 3/8" 
compression-1/4" NPT adapter.

To seal, I made a rubber gasket out of a Fass-Frisch 
mini-keg bung. I cut off most of the bung, leaving just 
enough of a lip to center the washer and pipe nipple in 
the cooler's drain hole.

Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Ala.


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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:15:51 -0500
From: "Smith,Brian H" <bhsmith at bogmil.gylrd.com>
Subject: FW: Keg isulation.....



> Gary,
> 
> I would think that the easiest isulation would be a hot water heater
> blanket.  They are coated on the outside with a plastic or vinyl
> sheeting(I think some may be done this way on both sides) and are very
> available at lowes/home desprate/wally world/etc.  I would think that a
> keg wouldn't be any larger in dia. than a hot water heater.
> 
> Brian Smith
> Big Ring Brewery
> Bogalusa, La
> 
> 
> 


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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:45:26 -0500
From: "John R. Prather" <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Fitting placement on Keg Based Systems

For you who have made your systems using beer, Kegs...  Where did you
place your fitting, and WHY?    That would include...

On HLT.
 - Output circulation
 - Return lines.. if any...
 - any lines feeding Counterflow Heating 
(I prefer to use a Herm as opposed to a RIMS)

On Lauter Tun.
 - Siphon Line Height...  ( i'm especially interested in this) 
 .	Should it be above or below the Grain Line?  
 .	Below would Insure that the Siphon would never be lost. 
 - Return Line
 - Any Others I might have missed...

And Any suggestions about the Boiling Vessel, too.. 

Been a while since I posted...   How about it guys..




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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:02:58 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Re: Bulkhead Assembly in Zymurgy

Doug asks if anyone has built the bulkhead assembly for the Gott coolers in 
a fairly recent issue of Zymurgy, because he is having leakage around the 
outside washer.
Well, I started heading toward the bathroom to look for that issue when I 
realized that he was probably talking about MY article! Small world, eh?

The black rubber O-ring on the inside of the cooler should provide all of 
the water tight seal. The washer on the outside of the cooler (which is 
what Doug asked about) is only there to provide a spacer to allow the 
threads to tighten snugly so that the rubber washer Inside the cooler will 
provide a tight seal. Then it won't (or shouldn't) leak. And you know what 
works really well for that spacer? Cut a slice from 3/4 inch PVC tubing. 
It's the right diameter, and you can customize the thickness with sandpaper 
to get it just right.
Good Brewing,
John

John Palmer
Monrovia, CA

How To Brew - the online book
http://www.howtobrew.com/sitemap.html
Homepage
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer

Let there be Peace on Earth.



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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:33:30 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: tripel yeasts

Pete in Syracuse asks about yeast choice for a triple.  I have done 2
all-grain (except candi sugar) tripels in the last few years.  First time I
used 1214.  Not a favorite.

Last one was using White Labs Platinum Series Strong Golden ale.  Much
nicer. I used this prior in a belgian pale that was also quite nice.

I know that George DePiro down at the PumpStation in Albany prefers a wit
yeast (I think from Wyeast) for his strong golden/triple.  It has a more
earthy flavor.

Good luck with the brew. 

Pete Czerpak in Albany, NY


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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:43:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Yeast for Belgian Strong Ale


In HBD#3946, Bob Boland had this to say about yeast for strong Belgian ales.

>Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 23:02:08 EDT
>From: RBoland at aol.com
>Subject: Yeast for Belgian Strong Ale
 
>Peter Ensminger is looking for the right yeast for his Belgian Strong and 
>wants to get that earthy, musty character.  He was leaning toward Wyeast 
>1214.  I'm not familiar with the White labs yeasts, but agree with his 
>selection of 1214.  The Trappist and Abby yeasts are good for Dubbles and 
>Tripels, but I consider their flavor too strong and inappropriate for a 
>Strong Ale.  By the way, I don't believe that musty, earthy flavor is a 
>typical characteristic of Belgian yeasts, or the beers in Belgium.  It 
>appears to me (and others) to be a flavor contributed by aging in contact 
>with natural corks.  Try a side by side tasting of capped and corked Duvel or 
>Jenlain; my experience is that the capped beers don't exhibit the damp 
>basement character.  I happen to enjoy it and was surprised that I rarely 
>tasted it in Belgium.
 

While in Belgium a year ago, I got the idea about musty and also highly
pheonolic is it is caused by abuse in shipping to the US.  

Dark strong ales like Rochfort, Westvlerten, Kasteel dark are relative
clean, not phenolic.  Yes, some fruit.  Westvlerten has a hoppy aroma
at the cafe across from the abbey.

Even the lambics aren't highly phenolic there.  The horse blanket 
description does fit either.  Yes, they are sour.  This is an area 
where the BJCP style descriptions appear to be inacurate to me.  They 
are based on what we taste in an imported version of a beer.

 


=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:51:58 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: expressions

Having been in the US Navy, I know about the
P's and Q's expression.

Sailors were paid once a month, and ran a tab
in the bars between paydays.  Rumor has it they
used to keep track of pints and quarts on a
chalkboard for each sailor in the bar.  Seems
unlikely, but regardless of whether it was on
a chalkboard, a book, whatever, unscrupulous
barkeepers would add pints or quarts never
consumed, (especially when the guy was drunk)
so it was up to the sailor to know what he owed.

Also, drunk sailors were sometimes notorious
for buying rounds for the house, which would
add significantly to the Ps and Q's owed!

But this goes back to sailors and running
bar tabs.

Bill



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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:47:36 -0700
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: In search of Ball lock keg fitting

Hi Everybody,

perhaps someone out there can help me

I am looking for a ball lock keg fitting. But it must be a tiny bit shorter
than the standard ones. Just a few milimeters would do.

Anybody ever see one? Know where I can get it?

John





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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 18:03:54 +0000
From: "Tobias Fischborn" <fischborn at hotmail.com>
Subject: Siebel response - Troy Hager Yeast Viability and Pitching


Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:55:09 -0700
From: Troy Hager <thager at hcsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Siebel Week
Thanks in advance for doing this!
My question is about yeast viability and pitching amounts.
Much has been discussed about these issues and it is well known that most 
commercial breweries maintain viability of 95% or more in the yeast that 
they pitch as well as pitching the correct volumes. With lots of very fresh 
yeast available and fully equipped labs it is not a big deal to test for and 
maintain such standards. At the homebrew level it is a bit more trouble.
Many discussions on the HBD as well as in many books and studies have stated 
that pitching less that 90% viable yeast will be detrimental to the finished 
product. Specifically George Fix in his books have stated that to him and 
his experience pitching a large amount of healthy yeast is the number one 
factor in making high quality beer.
Questions:

1. How important is viability? For example if I pitched twice the volume I 
needed for my 5 gal batch, let's say 10 oz. of yeast slurry, but it was only 
50% viable, could I expect to produce a high quality beer from this? I guess 
another way to state it is - How do dead yeast cells effect beer quality?

Tobias: I absolutely agree with George Fix. It is very important to pitch 
enough viable yeast. If you have a lower viability it makes sense to 
compensate with a higher pitching rate up to a certain limit. If you have 50 
% dead yeast in your harvested yeast, it indicates that the physiological 
condition of your yeast in general is not good.

It is different with dry yeast. Here there is always a certain percentage of 
yeast killed during the drying process. Therefore the  percentage of viable 
cells in your rehydrated dry yeast slurry is not an indication of the 
physiological condition of your rehydrated yeast.

Dead yeast can have a negative influence on the flavour of the beer but you 
need quite a lot of dead yeast. Dead yeast can have a negative influence on 
the foam stability because fatty acids are released. But this is more of a 
concern at the end of the fermentation. At the beginning these fatty acids 
can be used by viable yeast to reproduce themself.

2. Let's say that I have the same 10 oz. 50% viable yeast slurry but I step 
it up with a 1 gal starter. Now I have increased the viability percentage 
but still have a lot of dead yeast cells in the mix. Would they have an
effect on the finished product? Would it be advisable to wash this slurry to 
remove most of the dead cells before stepping it up?

Tobias: If you stepping up your yeast with a starter and the yeast is 
growing well you are also diluting down the percentage of dead yeast cells 
because you produce viable cells and the amount of dead yeast should remain 
the same. If you are stepping up 10 times you are reducing the portion of 
dead yeast approximately by 10 times. So any effect of dead yeast is 
deminshed.

I don't think you have to wash your yeast before stepping up. I also can't 
think of an easy practicle method to remove dead yeast from your yeast 
slurry.

3. Is lag time, assuming sanitization procedures are very good, a good 
indicator of the health of the yeast?

Forbes: No, I would prefer to use lag phase as a reasonable indicator of 
yeast performance, but the differences seen may be due to other factors 
other
than viability.  The significance in lag phase between e.g 6 and 9 hrs may 
not be great if the 9h lag phase yeast has a more vigorous fermentation.  So 
when I
say reasonable, 12h lag sounds long but if the fermentation is done in 2 
days good.  6h lag phase could be "short" but the yeast may take 4 days to 
ferment.
Lag phase is essentially an adaptation phase, so the more adaptation you are 
expecting of the yeast the longer the lag phase may be, without meaning the 
fermentation is bad.  It also depends on the yeast you are starting from.
Freshly propagated yeast should start fermentation quicker than a dry yeast 
or refrigerated yeast, but this may not mean the fermentation is better.  
Some might argue that the adaptation is what the yeast requires to do the 
job that is expected of it.

4. Finally, as a homebrewer without a hemacytometer to count yeast - I would 
like to get a general idea of the viability of a sample. I follow standard 
procedures for diluting and staining with methelyne blue but just use a
slide and cover plate viewing at 400X. If I see less than 1 out of every 10 
cells that stain blue - I should be in the ballpark of >90% viable cells 
correct?

Forbes: True.  The hemacytometer only offers you the ability of studying a 
defined volume therefore an accurate cell number.  You still need to have a 
good sample under the microscope to make meaningful results.  200-300 cells 
in your counting regime should ensure you are sampling a good number.
You might want to move your field of view over 2-3 areas on your slide to 
ensure you are sampling enough of your population.

Again, thanks for your time!
Troy Hager
Technology Specialist
Crocker Middle School
Hillsborough, CA 94010
650-548-4242





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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 14:07:49 -0400
From: brewjohn4 at netscape.net
Subject: more complaints

I find it very interesting that when our homebrew community is given
the "honor" of asking questions to Seibel, that we are suddenly innundated
with posts from pro-brewers, asking questions which have little or
nothing to do about homebrewing issues.  I find this backs-up my previous
post where I stated that I don't see what these people have in common 
with us.  I'm certainly not brewing 120bbl at a time, as one of these
posts refered to.  I would even wonder if this Seibel "opportunity"
isn't a veiled attempt by the pro-brewing community use homebrewers as 
a front for free advice.  Where are these pro-brewers when Seibel week
isn't happening?  

John Bowman







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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:08:57 -0400
From: "Greg Smith" <barnbrew at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Slow Starting Fermentation

Greetings again,

Second post in two days.  Who knew?  Anyway, last Thursday I made a
10-gallon batch o' brew.  I added two 'vials' of White Labs yeast (a bit on
the old side, I admit) and waited to see my bubbles.  As of last night (4
days later), there was nothing happening.

So I was thinking of adding two packets of Wyeast today.  But then this
morning, I noticed that things were starting.  I figure about every 40
seconds or so, there would be a bubble.  Now, 7 hours later, it's more
active - about every 6-7 seconds.

Long story not made any shorter - should I add the extra yeast?  Will this
change the flavor in a bad way?  Or, will the original yeast be fine and
should I just let it get on its way?  I'm not too worried about sticking to
style, I just don't want to make things worse by adding a different strain.
I was using a White Labs East Coast Ale - and the new yeast is a Wyeast
American Ale.


Many Thanks,
Greg



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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:29:17 -0400
From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Zymurgy saison recipe

I know I saved it somewhere but I cannot find it now when I need it.
Would you be so kind as to email the traditional saison recipe from
Zymurgy, July/August 2001 page 56? Thanks for the help.
best regards,
Ken



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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:32:56 -0400
From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Bell's Best Brown

I want to brew something similar to Bell's Best Brown Ale. Just to be
sure I have my brown styles straight is this one considered a Texas
style? And for the hop  experts what hops do you think they use?
Thanks again,
Ken



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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:40:19 -0500
From: "Partner" <Partner at Netdirect.net>
Subject: Dehumidifier H2O

I  went down to my laundry room and began to wash some clothes and this
thought struck me, like a '56 Mack Truck broadsiding a telephone booth.

If I use Water from my Dehumidifier, after a boil to sterilize, I'm
basically using demineralized H2O.   Pure..... Water.  Soft as a
baby's......

Just an Idea. but I now have a source for pure water... boiling in my hot
liquor tank would take care of any Cootie's.

Byron
206.9, 212.1   Apparent

That makes it South of Chicago, and North of Memphis, In the Heart of the
Blues!!!



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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:03:08 -0700
From: "Kirk Annand" <kirk.annand at ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Siebel Reply - Homebrew Oxidation

Peter:

Sorry for the late reply but I was unfamiliar with Campden tablets.  I
gather from your latest posting (HBD 3945) that they are anti-oxidants made
with sulphites - probably potassium metabisulphite.  I think that oxidation
in homebrews may be a serious problem if the beer is bottled.  If the beer
is filtered and does not have the protection of yeast in suspension them the
beer will probably be oxidized and change character fairly quickly.

Both sulphites and ascorbic acid will work if used correctly but I not a
believer in them.  As you mentioned in HBD 3945 there is a debate as to
their usefulness / effectiveness.  They are band-aids meant to cover up
weaknesses in the beer production process.  Major world brewers have been
the leaders in eliminating oxygen pick-up at all stages of the brewing and
bottling process.  Most of the world's big brewers do not use these type of
anti-oxidants because of improvements they have made in equipment and
control procedures.

I have heard some homebrewers refer to the big breweries as 'chemical
brewers', a charge which is now simply not true.  They now prefer to control
the process rather than treat the problem with additives.  I think that
small brewing enthusiasts should do the same.  There are also health
concerns regarding sulphite anti-oxidants.  I find it troubling that most
vintners still use these as part of their process.  It is time for them to
follow the brewing industry and reduce or eliminate their use.

Another reason why beer is the best beverage!

Kirk Annand, S.I.T.


Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 01:18:27 -0400
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: Siebel Week: Homebrew oxidation

It has been said that homebrew oxidation is a common and serious
problem. Is this true? If so, what practical steps can
homebrewers take to avoid oxidation. Campden tablets? Ascorbic
Acid? Others?

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
(Thanks Gump/Siebel/Lallemand for your support)








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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:32:45 -0700
From: "Kirk Annand" <kirk.annand at ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Siebel Reply - Hop Bitterness

Jim:

I think that I dealt with the questions that you raised in my reply on Hop
Isomerization in HBD 3943 and Hop Bag Use in HBD 3945.  The alpha acids
dissolve into boiling wort
quickly and isomerization takes place well within the hour that you
mentioned.  Adding hops to boiling wort to solubilize the bittering
substances and isomerize them is a relatively inefficient way to utilize hop
acids.  Even the finest of brewhouses will only extract about 35% of the
potential bittering value and transfer to the final beer.  This is part of
the reason that there are so many hop extracts available today.  The
bittering acids can be efficiently extracted in hop processing plants and
then the brewer can make efficient use of the hop product.  These products
also are efficient to ship and can be made with special characteristics (for
instance they can remove the chemical that makes beer go 'skunky' when light
hits it).

Kirk Annand, S.I.T.


Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 07:47:17 -0500
From: jal at novia.net
Subject: Siebel Week: hop bitterness



Hopped wort should boil one hour to achieve the full (or nearly full)
bitterness potential from the hops.

My question: is the hour required for the alpha acids (and other bittering
components) to be separated from the hop bits (blossoms or pellets) and
released into the wort, or for the isomerization (?) of the alpha acids? If
the
hour is mostly for the isomerization, when are the alpha acids released?

This question came up when the kettle boiled over and some first wort hops
dissolved in the wort?

Thanks,

Jim Larsen
Omaha, NE






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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:02:59 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: FW: Siebel Week-Lyn Kruger

Folks,
     I am forwarding this on behalf of Dr. Kruger...whose messages were
rejected by HBD for a variety of sins.   (Hey, she's a brewer...not a geek!)

From: Kruger, Lyn
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:01 PM
To: 'post@hbd.org'
Subject: Siebel Week responses
        Hi All,

     It has been our pleasure to answer your questions during Siebel week.
We will be checking this week to make sure that all your questions have been
answered.  So, if your question has not yet been answered, look out for the
response this week!

     I would like to thank my colleagues for taking the time to participate
in this event.

     Cheers,
Lyn Kruger
President
Siebel Institute of Technology



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