HOMEBREW Digest #3972 Tue 25 June 2002

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  Re: Oxygen tanks ("Chad Gould")
  Re: Oxygen Tanks (Colin Kaminski)
  Dirty Oxygen? ("Ralph Davis")
  Re: How to protect sight tube from heat? ("Kent Fletcher")
  RE: Subject: conversation between brewshop and customer.....sheesh ("David Houseman")
  Re: Oxygen Tanks ("Chad Gould")
  RE: Subject: Oxygen Tanks ("Steven Parfitt")
  Oxygen Purity ("Berggren, Stefan")
  re:  MB RIMS chamber (Paul Kensler)
  Kegged Beer ("Steve Wood")
  Oxygen Tanks and Oil ("Pete Calinski")
  RE: Kegging problems (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  oxygen effects, CO2 sharpness, early hop flowers (Alan Meeker)
  RE: Porous kegs? (Brian Lundeen)
  A House Bug? ("Eric R. Theiner")
  priming goof (fatz)
  North Myrtle Beach pubs (Ed Jones)
  Re: gushing beer = contamination? (Roy Roberts)
  re: oxygen Tanks (Robert Marshall)
  AHA NHC Results ("Gary Glass")
  Call of the Wild (Hops) ("Jim")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 01:04:09 -0400 From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com> Subject: Re: Oxygen tanks > You are on the right track to improving your beer by improving your > pitching technique. Using yeast starters and oxygen to aerate your > wort are the two most important improvements anyone can make to > their homebrewing process to make their beer better. Our beer > improved 100% when we started using oxygen to aerate our wort > and the wort for our yeast starters. I was pretty impressed with the last beer (a lighter amber ale) I've done, so far (which was the first using pure O2). In fact, the only drawback I can see was that maybe the attenutation rate was too much. :) (I started with a 1.042 OG and ended with a 1.007 FG - !!!) Fermentation rate though seems to improve signifigantly with this method. I wonder if anyone knows any caveats with oxygen. Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:34:39 -0700 From: Colin Kaminski <colinsk at pacbell.net> Subject: Re: Oxygen Tanks >I was reading this yesterday >A mechanic friend warns that oxygen tanks used for welding etc.. (available >in hardware stores)contain oil and other things you definetely do not want >in your wort >can anyone else confirm/disprove this? > -John- I am not the definitive expert on this subject but after researching this question for two different fields here is what I have found. There are no checks performed on welding O2 tanks to insure that no oil has accumulated. It should be noted that any oil on a O2 fitting will cause an explosion when tightened so oil is not added and every effort is made to keep water and oil from O2 tanks. I have used welding grade O2 while gliding for years and continue to use it in my beer at the 7 brl brewery I work in. We have over 1000 batches in our brew log. Colin Kaminski Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 02:56:19 -0400 From: "Ralph Davis" <rdavis77 at erols.com> Subject: Dirty Oxygen? From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca> Subject: Oxygen Tanks >I was reading this yesterday >A mechanic friend warns that oxygen tanks used for welding >etc.. (available ?in hardware stores)contain oil and other things you definetely do >not want >in your wort >can anyone else confirm/disprove this? >-John- John: I have it on good authority, from a professional welder friend, that welding oxygen is as pure if not MORE pure than hospital grade oxygen. Oxygen is inherently flamable so there is NO kind of oxygen that has oil in it or the tanks... and the standards for other impurities (which are usually flamable too) are virtually the same for either, the industry makes sure of purity...just for fire-safety sake. I even understand that some individuals who need medical oxygen personally, will use welder's oxygen to save some cash--(although probably not legally!) with apparently no downside. I believe the same ultimate sources are used to fill both kinds of tanks--one just charges the HMO's more money, no doubt..... I quote Paul Edwards from the HOMEBREW Digest #2904 Fri 18 December 1998: "..... (here's the infor I got from a supplier of welding oxygen: "'U.S.P. Oxygen (medical) has guranteed specifications of 99.0% minimum oxygen purity, no odor. "'Industrial (welding) oxygen does not have guaranteed specifications, but typically is CGA grade C, < 50ppm of moisture, 99.5% oxygen purity. "'Both grades come from the same cryogenic bulk source.....'" So you see my welder friend AND a HBDigest member agree--welding Oxygen is typically purer than medical grade.... This makes for a happy situation for us home brewers. Ralph W. Davis Leesburg, Virginia [395.2, 121.8] Apparent Rennerian "Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -Benjamin Franklin Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 01:44:39 -0700 From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com> Subject: Re: How to protect sight tube from heat? > The sight tube itself is glass. The gasket between the > glass tube and the metal body attached to the bottom of > the keg is the rubber I'm thinking of. I was thinking it > might be worth going to a junk yard & picking up some > of the orange high temp rubber tubing attached to a > turbo unit in some car & then cutting that to be a gasket. Gary, If this is a factory (SABCO) installed sight glass, you needn't worry about the rubber. Sure it's hot, but you're not supposed to be grabbing hold of it, and it's not going to be much hotter than the wall of the kettle. If it is, turn down the burner, dude! You're wasting fuel and heat. Kent Fletcher Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:06:33 -0400 From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net> Subject: RE: Subject: conversation between brewshop and customer.....sheesh Karl, Now this customer has had 1.040 wort sitting for a week without pitched yeast and with "a few" bubbles being emitted from his airlock and you tell him to put in the sachet of yeast now? Hummm....hopefully he making Lambic, Berliner Weisse or vegetable soup? Dave Houseman Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:27:20 -0400 From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com> Subject: Re: Oxygen Tanks > I was reading this yesterday > A mechanic friend warns that oxygen tanks used for welding etc.. (available > in hardware stores)contain oil and other things you definetely do not want > in your wort > can anyone else confirm/disprove this? Definitely not oil - oil plus oxygen is extremely flammable! You would not be able to store compressed oxygen this way without a good chance of spontaneous combustion. The only good discussion I have found explaining the grades is at St. Pats - http://www.stpats.com/diffuser.htm - which says that there is no difference. I would tend to agree from a logical perspective - if there are impurities, they would be of the impurities found in air to begin with (e.g. nitrogen). Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:48:42 -0400 From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Subject: Oxygen Tanks John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca> Posteth: >I was reading this yesterday A mechanic friend warns that oxygen tanks > >used for welding etc.. (available in hardware stores)contain oil and > >other things you definetely do not want in your wort can anyone else > >confirm/disprove this? >-John- .....SNIP.... My high school teacher did over 30 years ago... You NEVER, but NEVER mix O2 and Oil! Unless your are intentionally making a bomb. Read any manual on gas welding, or instructions on O2 regulators and you will see that they warn against getting oil in or on an O2 regulator. Fear not. I've been welding for over 20 years, and using my welding rig for oxigenating beer for a good bit of that. The biggest caviat I can think of is that welding equpt is often used in a physically dirty environment. I made a hose assembly specifically for brewing, that I keep with my brewing supplies. Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery http://thegimp.8k.com Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian "Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von Bismarck Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:45:49 -0500 From: "Berggren, Stefan" <stefan_berggren at trekbike.com> Subject: Oxygen Purity Hello all, This is something that I have investigated for some time. I can pretty much guarantee that the oxygen used for welding and the oxygen bottles you purchase at "home improvement" stores are free from any petroleum (oil) based contaminants. I work in an industry that does a lot of welding and I can tell you that there are no impurities as long as you purchase from a reputable source. Medical grade Oxygen and industrial grade are 99% percent the same (one is certified and the other is not). Go to a weldsupply store or AGA (no affiliation) and get a tank or head off to your local home improvement shop. With using the proper set up one can oxygenate ones wort safely and effectively without the risk of contamination. Cheers, Stefan Berggren Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak..... -Anonymous- Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 06:57:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com> Subject: re: MB RIMS chamber Drew, I'm familiar with the Moving Brews RIMS chamber - its an impressive all-SS monster and "one of these days" I'll get around to finishing my RIMS system so I can use it... But I know for a fact that one of the pieces - the end fitting where the heating element screws in - is a custom machined piece that Bill Stewart of Moving Brews had re-threaded for this purpose. Apparently heating elements are not standard pipe thread. So while I'm sure your buddy can come up with a decent home-made RIMS chamber, he'll have to come up with another solution for the fitting in question - unless he has access to a machine shop that can re-thread the fitting for him? As for the size of the pipe and fittings... its at home right now but from memory I think the pipe was 2" with the one-hole fitting being a reducer to 1/2", and the other fitting being the "T" to connect the pipe to the heating element and another 1/2" inlet / outlet. Hope this helps, Paul Kensler Gaithersburg, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:56:47 -0700 From: "Steve Wood" <swood at lrmltd.com> Subject: Kegged Beer How long should kegged beer last if it is continually refridgerated? I'm planning on stepping up from bottling to kegging, and setting up a multi keg fridge. Granted, we don't drink like in the college days, but enjoy having fresh beer on hand. Thanks Steve Wood IPA Uber Alles Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:14:51 -0400 From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net> Subject: Oxygen Tanks and Oil Regarding oil in pressurized oxygen tanks. Basically, there can't be any. Oil and oxygen under pressure ignite. Think of a diesel engine. No spark, just air+diesel fuel(oil)+pressure=ignition. I know this isn't an exact description of the processes involved but, air is only 20% O2. Nearly 100% O2 with almost any hydrocarbon will ignite. Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY *********************************************************** *My goal: * Go through life and never drink the same beer twice. * (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.) *********************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:36:27 -0400 From: "Jones, Steve (I/T) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com> Subject: RE: Kegging problems Dave Burley (great to see you posting regularly again, Dave) gives Troy a very good answer to his kegging problems, and I just wanted to add a little note about transferring to keg via the out tube. You can siphon from carboy to keg thru the out tube quite easily. I made a special transfer tube just for this purpose by using a short piece of racking cane with a section of beer line connected to it. I attached it by heating the line to soften it and force it over the racking cane. I added a QD on the other end. I then connect my standard racking hose setup (using an orange carboy cap on the racking cane) to this and sanitize it by running the sanitizer from the keg out thru the transfer tube thru the racking cane into a bucket. I then put the racking cane into the carboy, snap on the orange cap, and LOOSELY connect my CO2 line (1/2" ID vinyl hose coming from a mini ball valve at the regulator). I then start the siphon with about 3 or 4 lbs pressure, disconnecting after it gets going. And Brian recommends to Troy to put his kegs in the corner of the basement or give them away. Don't give up!! Work the bugs out of your process and you will be very happy with kegging. If you're not, send them to me! - ----------------------------------------------------- Just a short note on the AHA National Homebrew Conference: This was my first, and all I can say is WOW!! It was great to meet all those folks whose names you see everywhere in the beer world. Definitely the most extraordinary homebrew experience of my life. And the Chicago crowd vows that next year will be even better! Make your plans now to spend the summer solstice in Chicago. Steve Jones Johnson City, TN [421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian http://hbd.org/franklin Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:10:53 -0400 From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu> Subject: oxygen effects, CO2 sharpness, early hop flowers Rambling responses: 1) Kevin Crouch, writing on the damaging effects of oxygen on beer notes, "Wort produced under optimal conditions will, on the other hand, have a wealth of powerful reducing agents in the healthy melanoidins and organic acids in the hops. This is what is referred to as "stable beer" regarding oxidation. Once you've added the yeast to it, You simply cannot add enough oxygen under normal homebrewing conditions to overcome the anti-oxidant capacity of your beer." A couple of comments here. While it is true that melanoidins and various other reducing agents (aka "reductones") are produced during a beer's production, it is also the case that, once oxidized, these compounds can themselves turn around and oxidize the finished beer, contributing to the beer's staling. Also, while it's true that live yeast can provide an effective buffer against oxygen's detrimental effects, this ability is largely dependent upon having living, metabolicaly active yeast present. While this will certainly be the case during the active phase of fermentation, by the end the yeast become dormant during the stationary phase, losing much of their reducing power. This should pick up again, for a short time, during bottle conditioning, as they utilize the priming sugar. All this is to say, I personally wouldn't count on melanoidins and the presence of yeast in homebrewed beer to give one unlimited protection against the introduction of oxygen late in the process. A while back I noticed that, as has been pointed out by others for dark beers, my stouts and porters seemed to have good stability in the short term, however they seemed to suffer more severe and accelerated staling over time than did my lighter beers. At the time, I performed a couple of Pivo-esque tests at bottling, in which I would purposely aerate the last couple of bottles worth of beer in the bottling bucket by stirring, then bottling them as usual. These bottles consistently displayed strong stale off-flavors quite early on when compared head-to-head with their non-stirred same batch siblings. I strongly encourage folks to try this very simple test to see what you get in your own brewing set up. 2) Troy Hager found that carbonated water has a sharp bite to it. This is almost certainly due to the fact that, by increasing in the dissolved CO2 level one is also, by mass action, increasing the amount of carbonic acid in solution, as these two species are in chemical equilibrium with one another. Thus the water becomes acidified, giving it the sharp character. 3) Santhosh Kumar notices early flower production on his Cascade hop bines. I've had hops growing for the last 4 years and have noticed that the flowers appear earlier each year. This year is no exception - I have full-sized hop cones already. I usually don't harvest till late August and here it is not even July yet! However, since you said your hops are newly planted I have no explanation. Perhaps this is what really underlies the Bush administration's backtracking on their global warming stance?? -Alan Meeker Lazy Eight Nanobrewery "Where the possibilities are infinite" Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:25:00 -0500 From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: RE: Porous kegs? Kevin Crouch wrote: > Kegs are porous so they allow > exchange with the air, so even the best-handled unstable > beer will eventually react with oxygen, while those put in > bottles will remain fresh. Please expand on this statement. If this is the case, I can certainly save myself a lot of money on expensive cooperage, and simply put my wines into kegs with some oak chips. Cheers Brian Lundeen Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:20:06 -0400 From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com> Subject: A House Bug? I'm afraid that I have an infection in my brewhouse and I'd appreciate anyone's ideas regarding how to handle/eliminate it, or some ideas as to what else it could be coming from. The background: About 2-3 years ago I developed a propensity for brewing phenolic beers. This was not intentional. After a few sequential batches of band-aid beer, I gave up on brewing for a time-- not because of the beer, but because of the birth of my son which coincided with a hurricane. I really didn't have the time or inclination for brewing for quite some time after that. Once I got back on the horse I brewed in other places using my own equipment-- friend's houses, club big brews, etc, and have produced good beers, but one or two here or there have been taken back to my own brewhouse and when they've been transferred to kegs or secondary fermenters, more often than not, the beer has turned phenolic. I have noted that if I transfer directly to a keg and put it in the fridge, I've got a better chance of escaping the problem. This problem does not manifest in any wines that I make, although I'm not sure if it's the higher alcohol content or the fact that I almost always stabilize the wine with sorbate. And my fermenters, hoses, etc. are used interchangeably between beer and wine. So over the past two years, I've decided that it's not my technique or equipment that's doing it to me, but a bug floating around in my brewhouse. The brewhouse: It's a big shed originally built for woodworking (i.e. it has lots of electrical outlets). The walls and ceiling are pressed board, and the floor has been covered by vinyl (although it's generally pretty dirty). It's VERY cluttered as a result of late nights and loss of ambition in straightening up, a toddler who loves to putter around, and cleaning sessions cut short by same toddler deciding that it's time to go outside. In other words, it's going to take quite some time to clean it up. And there is an A/C unit that blows continuously (and the fact that the electrostatic filter has never been changed might be part of my problem). Can I simply spray the air with something prior to any type of open operation? Or do I need to scrub the whole thing out? Or should I just take everything outside when it's time to transfer? Thanks, Rick P.S. I'll second the post stating that Jeff Renner's pretzel recipe is awesome. If you've never made them and have an inclination toward baking, you've got to try them out. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:17:32 -0600 From: fatz at xmission.com Subject: priming goof My friend and I goofed the last time we bottled by not using enough priming sugar (one of the drawbacks of drinking too much homebrew while brewing). Now we have 5 gallons of mostly flat beer. Another brewer suggested that we pour the beer from the bottles back into a bottling bucket, letting it sit to get out what little carbonation is in there, then re-doing it correctly (and soberly). Do you think that this will work? Are there better solutions, or is this just wishful thinking? Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:07:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Ed Jones <ejones at ironacres.com> Subject: North Myrtle Beach pubs I'll be in North Myrtle next week. If anyone has recommendations for brewpubs or just good restaurants in general that shouldn't be missed, please drop me line. Thanks! - -- Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian "When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment, I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery." - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:00:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Roberts <psilosome at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: gushing beer = contamination? Sounds like the amylase continued to produce fermentables after bottling, unless maybe that sourness is from lactic contamination (which apparently makes ropy strands). I would definitely vent the bottles before you get bottle bombs. When I had to do that with my prematurely bottled weizen, I lifted the cap just enough to audibly release some pressure. In my case the caps closed and stopped hissing upon removing the bottle opener, and I then got a more positive seal with a capper. Roy NYC Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:36:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Marshall <robertjm1 at yahoo.com> Subject: re: oxygen Tanks Don't know abou the big tanks that you see in welding shops, but the small ones used for handheld torches are the SAME THING that Liquid Bread sells you at twice the price. Just make absolutely sure you buy the oxygen tanks, and not butane, acetylene, or whatever other "-enes" that they sell. I bought mine at Home Depot, and it was a bright red cylander. Cheers, ===== Robert Marshall NNY Brewing Co. (NO, not N. New York, No-Name-Yet!) [6653.5, 339.5] Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:09:14 -0600 From: "Gary Glass" <gary at aob.org> Subject: AHA NHC Results Congratulations To All of the Winners in the AHA National Homebrew Competition! In particular, I would like to congratulate Curt Hausam of Salem, OR for taking not only the Homebrewer of the Year Award, but the Ninkasi Award as well--a feat no previous entrant has ever accomplished and one that I doubt will be repeated any time soon! Results are posted at http://www.beertown.org/AHA/NHC/02_winners.htm. Thanks to all of the entrants and sponsors who make this a truly great competition! We had a total of 3,074 entries this year, 400 more than last year!! Also thanks to all of the attendees of the AHA National Homebrewers Conference held this past weekend in Irving, TX. Wow, what a blast!! For those that didn't make the conference, you missed your chance to see AHA membership coordinator Erin Fay and I strutting our stuff in full cowboy gear and Zymurgy editor Ray Daniels bearing some skin in a rather short toga! I expect these are scenes to be never repeated (although with Ray you never can tell) so if you missed the conference, you missed your chance to check out this amazine spectacle. I'm sure there will be photos circulating in the next few weeks. If anyone took pictures during the conference and would like to share them with us, we'd be happy to see them--send to aha at aob.org. Now I just have to figure out what I'm going to wear for next year's conference in Chicago! Cheers! Gary Glass, Project Coordinator Association of Brewers 888-U-CAN-BREW (303) 447-0816 x 121 gary at aob.org www.beertown.org The Great American Beer Festival Turns 21 this Year! Mark your calendars, October 3-5, 2002 at the Denver Convention Center, http://www.beertown.org/GABF/ Join the AHA today at http://www.beertown.org/AHA/ahabens.htm Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:06:54 -0500 (Central Daylight Time) From: "Jim" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com> Subject: Call of the Wild (Hops) I don't know if it was the same call of the wild that tells the birds to migrate south for the winner and the bears to hibernate, but the morning of the 20th of June I had this urge to head east. It was almost like the Muslims in their need to head to Mecca in their Hajj pilgrimage. I loaded up my pickup truck, (Yes, pickup. I am from Texas after all), and my wife and I headed east. I wasn't for sure where I was headed but this power kept pulling in an eastward direction. Onward, past the Wilson World Hotel, past the Holiday Inn Select I was pulled ever faster and faster until I came to the Marriott at Las Colinas. Outside the hotel there were some protesters with placards that said DUMP GUMP and DOWN WITH JETHRO. I wasn't for sure why I was to go inside but I seemed to be pulled inside the hotel. One of the first sights I saw was this character in a pale blue tux, red converse tennis shoes and a ball cap with some sort of badge attached. He was being lead by a Mr."T" wanna be but looked more like Dave Dixon with a blue head. He was followed by two charter members of the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders. The Charter members were on the 1960 squad. The tied part of their blue shirt was around their waist It's hell what gravity does over time. Then I saw this other guy in a "Toga" that looked a lot like Ray Daniels. This "Toga Guy" was standing on a table in the lobby telling every passerby that they could take a peek underneath the toga for 50 cents. Everyone was walking waaay around him. This power that lead me all the way from West Texas seemed to be pulling me up toward the mezzanine. When I climbed the stairs to the mezzanine area there seemed to be tornado not unlike the one from the Wizard of Oz there. I saw some of the home brewing greats being pulled around the center. I caught glimpses of Charlie Papazian, Louis Bonham, Dave Housman, Randy Mosher, Mark Tumarkin, Dean Fikar, Russ Bee, Fred Eckhardt and a few others that if I mentioned their names you would think I was name dropping. As I looked deeper and deeper into the center of the tornado I could see one person standing there as if this was a natural everyday occurrence. He had on a badge and some buttons. Both had writing on them that I was able to make out. The badge had the man's name "Jeff Renner and the buttons had 00 00 Rennerian. I then realized that I had been pulled to the center of the homebrewing universe. We had three great days in Irving, Texas. Wish all of you could have been there. Jim Bermingham Millsap, TX Return to table of contents
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