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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: Sankey Kegs Again (Kent Fletcher)
  Web Site (Wayne Aldrich)
  Re: Yeast Info. APB ("Angie and Reif Hammond")
  Re: Fermentation and Temperature ("Steve Alexander")
  cider and mead ("Haborak, Kevin")
  FG too high ("Adam Wead")
  Re: Wit technique (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Sankey Kegs Again (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Beer Engine Setup (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Beer Engine Setup ("Junk")
  re: Yeast Info (Rama Roberts)
  KROC World Brewers Forum (WBFInfo)
  Beer Engine Questions (Mike Bardallis)


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Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 22:15:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Sankey Kegs Again

>1. Is a Sankey keg one of the typical half-barrel
>kegs that one buys for a frat party in the US?

Yes, generally, it is.  Sankey is a brand name that
applies to the tap/vlave system employed by MOST 1/2
barrel kegs in use today.  Guiness and some others use
a proprietary tap, but are similar.

>2. If it is, many of the tapping systems that I am
>familiar with for these kegs use an air pump to
>pressurize the keg. If one of these was used, can
>this type of kegging system still be used for
>homebrew, with priming sugar added to create the CO2?


Basically, no.  It is very difficult to clean Sankey
kegs without special equipment.  If you could get it
sanitized (it is possible, just not worth the effort)
then you could fill it with homebrew, but this again
would be difficult.  Lastly, once you did get the
primed beer in the keg and waited weeks for it to
carbonate, YES, using an air pump will spoil the beer
in a very few days.

If you want to serve kegged beer in quantities that
are more appropriate for cask style serving, use
cornies, any frat party that can't kill 5 gallons in 2
days isn't worthy of the name!  Small house?  Get a
three gallon cornie.

Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal
1951, 265 Apparent Rennerian





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Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:18:10 +0200
From: aldrich4 at t-online.de (Wayne Aldrich)
Subject: Web Site

Sorry about the bad link.  Try This:
www.barleys.nl

When you get there look for this link:
Thuisbrouwerijen

Wayne Aldrich




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Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 09:19:20 -0400
From: "Angie and Reif Hammond" <arhammond at attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Yeast Info. APB

Rick,

Look under Brewing on the Brewrats web site:

http://www.brewrats.org

There is lots of other good information here also.

Reif Hammond
Durham, NH




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Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 09:53:31 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fermentation and Temperature

Demonick Venezia wrote ...

>And, anti-intuitively, I believe that rousing the yeast encourages
>flocculation and leads to a clearer brew.  

Excellent intuition Dom .... in BY&F Quain and Boulton write ...
"Although seemingly contradictory, flocculation requires agitation!".
They go on to cite recent experiments in which yeast fail to floc
when agitation is avoided.

 -S




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Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:17:29 -0700
From: "Haborak, Kevin" <KHaborak at golder.com>
Subject: cider and mead

Technically the cider should be discussed on a wine board as it is made from
fruit.  Mead is a little tougher, but you could view it as a beer made from
100% adjuncts.


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Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 13:28:05 -0600
From: "Adam Wead" <a_wead at hotmail.com>
Subject: FG too high

Dear Collective Wisdom:

Thanks for all the great advice I've been getting from you guys.  It's 
really helpful!

I've got another problem now...  I've been working on this IPA for 2 weeks 
now.  It started out fine, OG of 1.052.  I pitched the yeast (W 1056) from a 
starter and it was done in about 2 days, probably because it was so warm (75 
F).  After a couple of more days, the gravity was only around 22.  So, I 
added another starter to see if that might bring it down even further.  No 
avail.  I racked it last night after a 2 week fermentation schedule with 2 
500ml starters.  The gravity was only 1.020 and an attentuation of only 62%.

I now have it in the secondary.  The weather is slightly cooler, around 73.  
But I have a wet towel around the carboy just in case.  There's probably a 
lot of diacetlys and esthers in this one because it fermented so quickly and 
warmly.

My question is why isn't the FG lower?  How can I get it lower?  And will it 
get any lower by leaving it in the secondary for a couple of weeks, so the 
yeast can tackle the diacetlys and esthers?

Thanks for the advice.

Adam Wead
(Bloomington, IN)



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Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 15:37:11 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Wit technique

Geez!  What is with the line devouring HBD server!!!???  Like Dave 
Houseman, I've had my post butchered.  This is what was posted in 
today's HBD:

>A hint from experience - don't just toss it into the boil near the
>water and whisk it with a fork or whisk (actually, I used a gravy
>shaker), then add this.

This is what I wrote (I will put it behind carets to try to keep it intact):

>A hint from experience - don't just toss it into the boil near the 
>end as suggested.  You'll get lumps.  Put it into a half cup or so 
>of water and whisk it with a fork or whisk (actually, I used a gravy 
>shaker), then add this.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 15:30:12 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Sankey Kegs Again

"Henry Van Gemert" <President at 1Gallon.com> writes from Portage (AK, 
IN, ME, MI, MT, OH, PA, UT, WA, WI?)

>1. Is a Sankey keg one of the typical half-barrel kegs that
>one buys for a frat party in the US?

Yes, the straight sided ones with the ball valve on top.  They also 
come in 1/4 barrel (7.75 gal) and, rarely, 1/6 barrel (5.17 gal).  I 
keg in 1/4 barrels and have one 1/6 barrel that I use occasionally, 
and Cornies.

>2. If it is, many of the tapping systems that I am familiar
>with for these kegs use an air pump to pressurize the keg.
>If one of these was used, can this type of kegging system
>still be used for homebrew, with priming sugar added to
>create the CO2?

The taps that you rent at the party store typically have an air pump, 
but as soon as you start pumping air into the keg, the lifetime of 
the beer is limited to a day or two due to air and contaminants.  You 
can prime with sugar, the same as with a Corney, but you'll have to 
use it quickly.  And, when you prime, you will inevitably have a 
sediment which limits how much you can move the keg and still have 
clear beer.

This technique doesn't need to be limited to Sankey kegs - it 
wouldn't be at all hard to rig a bicycle or other air pump up to a 
Corney.

>3. And if it could (yeah, I know this is 3 questions), what
>would the refrigeration requirements be? Would it need to
>be refrigerated after priming or would it be fine cold until
>it's tapped? Once the air hits it through the pump/tap, must
>it all be drank in a day or two, as commercial
>beers?

It need to be kept only cool, as with bottled beer, until you are 
ready to tap.  You can either chill the entire keg or use a jockey 
box, which chills the beer on its way to the faucet.  You've 
anticipated the time limit, as I noted above.

>This just looks like an easy way for me to get away from
>the bottle washer, but without all the CO2 lines, regulators,
>etc that seem to be part of kegging.

Only if you use it all at once, but this may indeed be a good way of 
serving beer for a party.

OTOH, kegging doesn't need to be that scary - really.  Check it out 
at online sources or the super Zymurgy article by Ed Westmeier in the 
Sept/Oct, 2001 issue.  You should be able to get into it for under 
$100 with a used tank and regulator.  You'll never go back to 
bottling!

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 18:58:34 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Beer Engine Setup

"Christopher Post" <chrispost@ earthlink.net> wrote from Becket, 
Western MA that he has been bitten by the real ale bug and has bought 
a beer pump.  Chris, join the club.  To paraphrase an old quote from 
our janitor, Pat Babcock, I LOVE my beer engine, except for the 
clanking sound it makes when my wife throws it off the bed.

Either a Corny or a Sankey will work fine.  I like to transfer the 
beer sediment clear from another keg or a secondary and gently 
carbonate it with CO2 (shhh, don't tell tell CAMRA).

Unless you really mean that you can consume 40 pints in a weekend (in 
which case, please remember me in your soon to be executed will), 
what you need is a cask breather.  This is a demand valve that bleeds 
CO2 into your cask at atmosphere pressure.  You hook it up to the gas 
fitting between it and the CO2 tank.  CAMRA had a bitter (yuk, yuk) 
fight over whether or not to allow these, and finally decided not to. 
But you and I aren't bound by these strict rules.  You could also 
vent to the air then try to purge it at the end of the weekend.  But 
note, it isn't only the bugs (which you might be able to filter out), 
but also the O2 which will cause a short life for your beer (shorter 
than yours, even  at  40 pints per weekend).

Several problems with your suggestion of one atmosphere of N2. 
First, it doesn't take much pressure (<1 psi) to push the beer right 
out of the pump without any human intervention.  Second is the matter 
of partial pressure.  If there is no CO2 layer over the beer, then 
CO2 will come out of the beer, and it will become flat.

You may find the "CAMRA Guide to Cellarmanship" informative and 
interesting reading, although it isn't really necessary.  I got mine 
from http://www.brewinbeagle.com/, but I'm not sure they are still in 
the real ale equipment business.  Another source for equipment is 
http://www.ukbrewing.com/.  They sell cask breathers.

Have fun with your new toy.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 18:29:07 -0500
From: "Junk" <pikachu at hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Beer Engine Setup

Disclaimer: I know nothing about authentic "real ale" except what
I've read, so....

The points of "real ale" (besides the recipe) as I understand them
are:
     * low carbonation,
     * higher serving temperatures
     * conditioning in the serving container
     * unpressurized serving container, pulling air in to fill the vacuum
     * ((anything else?))

In addition, most authors I've read seem to think the air (oxygen?)
may help produce the desired taste.  Ie. I've read that it is often
considered best  a day or so after tapping and that soon afterwards
it becomes "bad."  Is it possible that oxidation is part of the desired
flavor - to a point?  If so, then using nitrogen instead of air isn't going
to get the desired results.  Also, it isn't going to be possible to keep
it around for a long period due to the eventual excessive oxidation.

> Now my question is, how am I going to connect it up, and what is
> going to be the best container for the beer I want to pump?

It seems to me the solution might be to
     *  "keg" into smaller containers so that they can be finished in a
                weekend
     *  condition in the "keg" (adjust priming to get low carbonation)
     *  use a temperature controlled container to get the correct serving
                temp.

Perhaps you could design something using 2 or 3 liter "Coke" bottles
and an attachment something like the "plumbing T" CO2 dispenser:
           http://home.swbell.net/bufkin/cheap_3_liter_kegs.htm
I built one using a bicycle tire CO2 dispenser but you could use
something that would introduce air (just a cloth covered hole/pipe?).
You could pump from it or even probably use gravity to a cobra head
tap.  Alternately, you could use a plain bicycle tire pump and pressurize
the container with air, perhaps to keep the existing carbonation and
to dispense (not unlike standard American "pony" keg hand pumps).

With a short time (2-3 days) contact with the air, the filtering would be
unnecessary (ie. obviously if the pubs do it that way).

I've been thinking about this the last couple of months and may well just
try building something like this at some point.  I'll know if it is good,
but
I won't know if I get it "right" because I've never tasted "real ale" in
the UK and nobody has it around here either.

I may just fill a 2 liter "Coke" bottle with a pale ale and after
conditioning
it, remove the top, attach my "T" gizmo and use a bicycle pump to
pressurize it with air and try a small glass each day as long as it will
last to see the flavor changing.......     hmmmm.

DS





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Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 18:48:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: Yeast Info

> I have been seeking authoritative and complete info. on various yeast
> strains.  You know, such stuff as brewery origin, fermentation
> characteristics, flocculation, optimum fermentation temps., typical flavor
> contributions, etc.  I know this has been posted before on the HBD-- I've
> seen it-- but I'll be darned if I can find it now.  

The best reference I have found on yeast characteristics is on BYO's site:
http://www.byo.com/referenceguide/yeaststrains/

- --rama roberts



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Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 08:21:35 -0600
From: WBFInfo at KROC.org
Subject: KROC World Brewers Forum


            Eighth Annual KROC World Brewers Forum(tm)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Keg Ran Out Club (KROC) in conjunction with the American Homebrewers
Association, the Birko Corporation, Beer, Beer & More Beer, White Labs,
Pete's Wicked Ale and The Great American Beer Festival, are once again
very excited to bring to the Denver area "Beer, Hops, and Food!" at the
Eighth Annual KROC World Brewers Forum(tm).

Garrett Oliver
    Considered one of America's top brewers, Garrett is vice-president
    and brewmaster of The Brooklyn Brewery. Recognized food expert and
    featured guest on the Food Network's Emeril Live!.

Ralph Olson
    Owner and General Manager of Hopunion CBS. Raised in the Yakima
    valley an in the hop industry since 1978, no one knows hops better
    than the man that "has never seen a beer too hoppy."


This is one of Denver's premier beer events and the cost to get in is to
have a great time and enjoy the company of others like you. You might
even be lucky enough to walk away with arm loads of free stuff!

The members of the Keg Ran Out Club would like to extend a huge thank
you to last year's attendees. After the tragic incidents of 911 we
raised $835 for the American Red Cross!

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cost:  FREE!
Info:  http://www.KROC.org/WBF/wbf2002.htm
When:  8pm-midnight Thursday, October 3rd, 2002
Where: Denver Marriott City Center
       1701 California, Denver, 303-297-1300
RSVP:  WBFInfo at KROC.org
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------


The KROC World Brewers Forum(tm) is brought to you by:
   The Keg Ran Out Club
   American Homebrewers Association
   Birko Corporation
   Beer, Beer & More Beer
   White Labs, Inc.
   Pete's Wicked Ale
   The Great American Beer Festival


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Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 15:41:18 -0400
From: Mike Bardallis <dbgrowler at provide.net>
Subject: Beer Engine Questions

Chris is the proud new owner of a beer engine, and has questions. I applaud the
wisdom of his purchase decision! I wrote an article on the subject for Zymurgy's
special packaging issue which ran, I believe, last summer. Unfortunately, being
almost terminally disorganized, I can't lay hands on a copy of the issue in
question. In fact, I can't seem to find the final edited file copy. What I do
have
is the article in its original form, before my dear friend Ray made me sound
politically correct and coherent. It's somewhat long, (another thing Ray fixed,)
but does address all of Chris's questions. Since it _is_ long, I won't waste
bandwidth, rather it is posted at 

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/bardallis/relaxed.pdf 

for anyone who might want to peruse it. Oh, and I know a few people who might be
able to help with the problem of what to do with 40 pints of beer....

Mike Bardallis
Allen Park, MI
(Home of that big tire and 30 minutes east of you-know-who.)


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