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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Drilling Holes in SS ("Wayne Holder")
  holes ("greg man")
  RE: Conical Construction ("Steve Jones")
  horsey (?) smell and flavor (darrell.leavitt)
  re: White Bottle Scum ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Re: Homebrew for Sale? ("Chad Gould")
  Brass and Counterpressure bottle fillers ("Dan Listermann")
  re: CPBF Oxidation ("Steve Alexander")
  Bike inner tubes as seal... (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM>
  Berliner Weiss, and Good Eats (Eric Jacobs)
  Steam RIMS and BOILING are DIFFERENT (Bill & Kazuko Macher)
  Holes in SS ("John Maylone")
  overnight mashing revisited ("Tom & Dana Karnowski")


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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:52:50 -0700
From: "Wayne Holder" <zymie at charter.net>
Subject: RE: Drilling Holes in SS

Jonathan Royce writes:

Actually, they are called "Greenleaf punches", but this
is just like calling facial tissues, "Kleenex".

Uhhh... Only if you actually called them Kleenecksf.

Greenlee tools, a division of Greenlee-Textron, makes chassis, or knockout
punches. Ideal tools also makes "Greenlee" punches.

I still recommend a step-drill for the conical hoppers.

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://www.zymico.com





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Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 01:18:59 -0400
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com>
Subject: holes


Jay, concocting his very own cylindro-conical, asks:
>I am in need of the most effective way to drill the 7/8" holes in the side 
>and bottom to mount the valves.

Everyone here is giving alot of good advice about how to drill the holes. 
However if your a lazy bum like me then buying a tool to use only a few 
times is not really worth it. No matter how much you like adding to your 
arsenal of toys.

Oh the point thats right I almost forgot, toledo metal spinning will drill 
the holes for you if you ask them though it will cost extra of course. But 
for about the same as it would cost to buy those fun gadgets. Though i just 
thought that if your order is "on it's way" this info. will do you no good, 
sorry!!!!

I asked them myself when I was about to order one. thought you all should 
know.................

Buy the way my name is greg getman this is my first post but i am a 
faithfull reader of the hbd.............
Everyone who contributes here is great, you guys are the best.

All the coments, questions, debates, the good the bad and the ugly.
All this helps the wise readers to make better beer..........

just sign me.....................not the fantom, poor guy :(
hahahahahahaha





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Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 09:02:35 -0400
From: "Steve Jones" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: RE: Conical Construction

Christian Rausch asks about options for sealing the top of his conical
from TMS.

Check out www.allorings.com. They have orings in silicone that are up to
26" dia, 1/4" thick.


Steve
stjones1 at chartertn.net




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Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:29:04 -0400
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: horsey (?) smell and flavor


I just bottled a Scottish Ale .... and it smelled and tasted a bit , well...
horsey,..earthy...not nasty, but any stronger and I think it could be.  Is this 
a flavor that anyone  has had from wlp028 Edinburgh ale yeast...or might it be 
an infection?

 ..Darrell



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Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:38:03 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: White Bottle Scum

I have also encountered this white deposit when removing bottle labels. I've
noticed that it occurs if I leave the bottles sitting in the ammonia solution
for an extended period of time. If I deal with the bottles within 3-4 days it
doesn't have time to build up. I guess it would also depend on the
concentration of your solution. Mine is fairly low. I have a full size trash
can out behind my brewery (a room behind the detached garage). I rinse out
bottles as they are finished & move them out to the trash can. When it's about
1/2 full, I fill it with water and add about a cup & a 1/2 of non-sudsing
ammonia. Many paper labels just float off, the rest come off easily when
scraped with a kitchen knife & hit with a scrubbie. If I start the process
during the week and then remove & clean the bottles on the weekend, the white
deposit doesn't seem to build up. But I have seen it if I let them sit for
several weeks. This shouldn't be a problem, cause I know none of you have a
problem with procrastination.....I certainly don't. Maybe I can convince you
of that, my wife certainly won't buy it.

I generally avoid dealing with the metallic labels since they are so much more
difficult to remove and it's easy to get enough bottles with paper labels. If
you don't generate enough, just ask your
friends to save some. Empty beer bottles are not an endangered species -
though maybe some of you brewers that lived out in the Northwest may remember
the old Raineer commercials (late 70's, early 80's ?) with the herds of
life-sized
Raineer bottles running through the woods. Maybe it's a good thing that those
have gone extinct.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL









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Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:23:27 -0400
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Homebrew for Sale?

> Question: Does anyone know if this is actually legal? Is it homebrew or
> is it commercially made beer for resale. I doubt seriously if they've
> paid the taxes normally associated with making beer for sale.

Many places which have their "own beer" actually contract brew with one of
the local micros to do that. I don't know if you can set up a contract with
a "homebrew store", but it's a possibility. Normally, a special "brewpub"
type license is required to make your own beer and sell it. Maybe the
pizzeria had it - probably not though.

A long time ago (back in the mid 90s), I remember going to a dive bar way
down in rural central Florida that actually sold their own homebrew. It was
quite a bit better than the rest of the junk they had on draft
(BudMillerCoors crap) and was only $1 a pint. Looking back, I bet that what
they were doing was illegal as hell - probably the only time I've come close
to experiencing the Southern moonshine tradition. :)




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Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:35:28 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Brass and Counterpressure bottle fillers

Paul Kensler writes that he believes that his taps are losing chrome plating
to beer exposure.
I discussed this with my plater.  He really does not see how this could
happen saying that chrome needs some real vulgar chemicals ( hydrochloric
acid) or electricity to come off.  Chrome is electroplated and, unless
anodes are put inside things which is rather difficult and expensive, it
will not plate interior areas.  Maybe there is a misperception here that
assumes that the part was chrome plated inside
and out and since the beer is exposed to the inside and there is no chrome
there, the beer removed it when it may have never been there to begin with.

The plater is going to do a little research to see if there is anything he
can turn up.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.







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Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 06:25:43 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: CPBF Oxidation

Dennis Collins posts,

>[...]  counter pressure bottled beer. [...]  why does the beer from my keg
taste fine for
>weeks and weeks, but the bottled beer tastes like crap in about a week?
 ...  oxidation.

I've had the same experience.    Some beers are ready to go over the edge
and bottling is their death.   I've seen this effect btw when using an
(almost) all plastic & stainless bottler too.  My hunch is that it's the O2.

Copper(Cu) and Iron(Fe)  ions play a big role in oxidation reactions, but it
appears that you'd  need to drop the iron below 1ppb and copper below 200ppb
to significantly limit the effect.  A lot of factors - competing mechanisms
and natural antioxidants like phenolics and ascorbic acid decrease the most
flavor damaging outcomes of this by very large factors.

Break formation is pretty effective at removing Fe, Cu and several other
metal ions from wort (70% to 99% according to various sources) and yeast
will consume yet more.   Still it doesn't take much of the metal ions.  Note
that the creation of the damaging radicals via metal ions ultimately
requires free oxygen.  You could try to collect these metal out of your beer
with chelation agents, or alternatively try to keep  included oxygen down to
commercial standards - very difficult.   Alternatively you could add to the
anti-oxidant level - say add a little ascorbic acid at bottling time
assuming these are for near term consumption.

Copper at the levels measured in the study can have a direct flavor impact -
different from oxidation..

- --
The 'Stainless One'  posted study from 'New Brewer'  appears a little self
serving to me - but there is no way of telling.  The credential of the
authors and the reference list appears weak.   I'd look for a comparable or
followup paper in a journal like ASBC or JIB before I put much weight behind
the idea.  One criticism off the top of my head is the huge variations
(37ppm to 158ppm of Cu) in Cu  levels between the seven samples.  This
requires an explanation.

>So, the meat of my post is this:  If post fermentation contact of beer with
>brass causes a significant increase in the copper content of the beer, and
>copper contributes significantly to beer oxidation in sufficient
quantities,

Possibly.   Copper and oxygen together can certainly cause some negative
effects - and fast, but my hunch is that the background level of copper in
beer (6ppm on the Budweiser test case) is well beyond the level needed to
maximize  this form of oxidation damage.

>I encourage the interested folks in the forum to look closely at
>this and give me your thoughts, BUT, read the BYO article (the first letter
>in the Mr. Wizard section)

I read the NewBrewer paper but as for Mr.Wizard - everytime I read that
column I feel like  dropping journal reprints over his house from a
helicopter.  You get better advise on HBD.    Often I'm absolutely stunned
at the dead-on HBD responses when someone posts that  they're having
such&such problem with fermentation or a mash or flavor.

 -S



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Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 08:04:01 -0500
From: "Smith, Brian (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM>
Subject: Bike inner tubes as seal...

Christian,

I wouldn't use a standard Butyl (black) bike tube as a seal for your
conical.  There are, however latex innertubes that are used by bike races
(ask me how I know).  You can usually find them in stock at higher end bike
shops or they can order you some.  They are more expensive (approx $8-$10
each).

Brian Smith
Inland Paperboard and Packaging
Bogalusa Mill



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Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:50:35 -0400
From: Eric Jacobs <ejacobs.cs93 at gtalumni.org>
Subject: Berliner Weiss, and Good Eats

A while ago (back in the spring) I made a couple attempts at making
Berliner Weiss, and wanted to post my experiences in order to help out
anyone else who gives it a try in the future.

In both cases I used 50/50 wheat/pils malt, aiming for low OG.  Also
boiled hops in the mash-water, before mashing, to get a little
bitterness.  I think I was basically following Marc Sedam's advice,
which I found by searching the archives.

The first batch was no-boil.  I mashed as usual, sparged, then let the
wort cool naturally from ~150F to pitching temp.  This did sour it
some, but also produced HUGE amounts of DMS.  I dumped this batch in a
flower-bed.  (And I have to say, the combination of sour, DMS-laden
beer, and 90F summer temps, produced an incredibly foul smell.  For a
couple days.  I'm glad SWMBO was out of town, or I never would've
heard the end of that.)

Second batch: Doughed-in around 100F, left the mash in my garage
overnight (16 hours), it stabilized around 90F.  Then I carried on
mashing- raise to 150, iodine test looked ok, etc.  I did a
batch-sparge, and boiled the first runnings for 10 minutes, but did
*not* boil the later runnings.  I figured that the majority of the DMS
precursors would be in the concentrated first runnings, so the best
payoff would be in boiling them.  But I'd still have the unboiled 2nd
runnings hopefully providing some bacteria for further souring if
necessary.  (I didn't mash-out, was hoping some bacteria would make it
through the 150F mash.)

Looks like the plan worked.  There may be some DMS, but it's at
acceptable levels.  I think the beer *has* continued to get more sour
over time, as I hoped- it started out not really sour enough, but now,
a few months later, it's got a nice tart bite.  (I've received a
suggestion to do a longer souring rest, on the order of 36 hours.
That might give a better level of sourness right off.)

I don't think this style makes my top-3 list or anything, but a glass
of it is *really* good after a day spent doing yard work.  I'll
probably make more in the future, but may just try a lacto culture
next time.


I can't add much to the comments already made about the Good Eats
show.  I thought it was a good, friendly, intro, along the lines of
Charlie's "Don't worry, have a homebrew" philosophy.  Hopefully it'll
encourage a few people to go out and visit their local HB shop.  If
you missed the original airing, IMHO it's worth checking out, keep an
eye out for reruns of it.  Last weekend I went to an Alton Brown
book-signing.  AB did a 30-45 minute talk and Q&A before signing
books, and someone asked how the homebrew turned out.  He said it was
good, and he actually finished up the last of it a couple days
earlier, while reading hate-mail from homebrewers, about that homebrew
show. :)  

Eric Jacobs
Atlanta, GA, USA


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Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:29:25 -0400
From: Bill & Kazuko Macher <macher2 at attbi.com>
Subject: Steam RIMS and BOILING are DIFFERENT

Hi everyone,

I got to thinking that it is likely that my previous posts, regarding the 
use of steam in the home brewery, may encourage someone to do something 
they should not. In my mind I was focused on using steam as the replacement 
heat source in a rims, in place of an electrical heating element.

While I still think this can be done safely, I have personally concluded 
that using a pressure cooker to supply steam to a boiling vessel would be 
foolhardy. I have been discussing the steam issue off line with 
someone...and rather than type my personal thoughts over, I have just cut 
and pasted a few paragraphs from that private email.

Like anything else in life, please consider the dangers of using anything 
that might harm you severely. While 15 psig steam may not have the killing 
power of 1,500 psig steam, it can still do you in. Think carefully before 
you act. REALLY!

Here are those paragraphs...

My observation is that using a pressure cooker to supply steam for a rims 
system does not stress the pressure cooker much, if any, over what it is 
designed for as used in the kitchen. I doubt that I can find the little 
booklet that came with my pressure cooker, but it is reasonable to expect 
there is a maximum burner BTU rating that a kitchen pressure cooker should 
be heated by. Exceeding that limit would not be advisable as it could 
weaken the vessel. This seems reasonable to me. I  don't think I run the 
natural gas burner that is under my pressure cooker beyond the cooker's 
ratings.

Using a pressure cooker as the source of steam for boiling is probably a 
VERY bad idea. I am pretty sure I want to post some of these thoughts on 
the HBD, because my previous mind set was not focused on the overall 
picture; I was thinking of steam as used in place of de-rated electrical 
heating elements in a rims, and not as a heat source for boiling, even 
though the first poster asked about using steam for boiling in a jacked pot 
he obtained from work.

We both know there is no free lunch. The flame that is under the steam 
source must be just ever so larger than that which would be under the 
boiling kettle, to cover heat losses in transit. This sounds like a VERY 
BAD idea to me. VERY bad... Actually so bad that I may cut these paragraphs 
and make a short post to the HBD because I fear that my words my encourage 
someone to do just that...

The little rubber plug that is the lid of the pressure cooker as a safety 
backup would do nothing to help if, due to overheating of the pressure 
cooker bottom, the pressure cooker was weakened and exploded, from the 
bottom up. Using a home pressure cooker above a flame that is beyond its 
design ratings, is a very bad idea. DO NOT DO THIS. Too risky...that is the 
message that I would try to convey.

That is the end of the pasted paragraphs...

On a side note, I did find what appears to be a reputable source with a 
table that lists soldered copper tubing and fittings as rated for 15 psig 
saturated steam. I am pretty sure that a pressure cooker can safely supply 
steam to a rims chamber, but there is no guarantee that you will be able to 
build a safe system to make this happen. Maybe YOU can, maybe I can; we 
must each make our own call and suffer the repercussions if we are wrong, 
or the benefits if we are right.

Don't want to beat a dead dog to death, but there is an important message 
here.

Future steam geeks...PLEASE consider what you are doing carefully.

These are not meant to be CYA words, just advice from someone who is using 
steam in home brewing and feels comfortable with it...but not as a heat 
source for boiling!

Bill




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Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:39:32 -0700
From: "John Maylone" <mrkoala at netptc.net>
Subject: Holes in SS



Chuck Doucette said:

>It sounds like John Maylone bought his step drill from
>Sears. Check out www.use-enco.com

Harbor Freight, actually.  I got the Titanium Nitride coated version of
the Uni-Bit.  Cost me a whole $0.54 more than www.use-enco.com 's price
for that item.  It'll last me a lifetime if I can remember where I put
it.  Then after I croak and my sons inherit it, they'll look at it,
wonder what the hell it is and sell it at a yard sale for something like
those 54 cents............

God has a great sense of humor.

John in Tollhouse




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Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 17:31:25 -0400
From: "Tom & Dana Karnowski" <karnowsk at esper.com>
Subject: overnight mashing revisited

I wanted to report the results from my overnight mash.  If you recall I was
the
one who wrote in that I had done an overnight mash and I got an extremely
low terminal gravity.  I was worried that the extended mash time was my
undoing.

The feedback ranged from:
- --measurement error, which turned out  to be true
- --I had mashed too low (about 144F)
- --the use of US malt (not 6-row but 2-row) produced lower terminal gravities
- --the low mash temperature and extended mash period would produce a nearly
100% fermentable wort

As it turns out I had accidentally measured the gravity wrong and it was
fiercely diluted.
So, I said I would re-post@ bottling time...which is NOW.

As it turns out, the finishing gravity was 1.006 and 1.008 for the dubbel
and saison.  This is definitely more attenuated that I wanted but, to my
relief, the samples tasted MUCH better than the super-diluted samples I drew
before. (no kidding).  They may be a bit on the thin side, perhaps, although
I don't know if I really can tell that at this point or if I was biased
because I knew they were well attenuated.

In an attempt to figure out my actual apparent attenuation, I took a
suggestion of Dennis Collins and checked my hydrometer and found that it is
reading low.  Tap water from my faucet adjusted to 60 F measured a gravity
of 0.996 so it looks like my hydrometer is messed up.

If I assume the hydrometer error is linear, which may be a bad assumption
but it is probably good to a first approximation, I'm off by 0.004 and thus
the actual FGs are 1.010 and 1.012.

Looking back at my notes, the original gravity was 1.062 for the dubbel and
1.068 for the saison.  Adjusting for the hydrometer error means the OG was
1.066 and 1.072.  Thus the apparent attenuation is really 85% and  89%,
definitely high.  I did have a fair portion (maybe about 1.010) of sugar
that made
up the wort, which I guess is more fermentable than regular wort, but
nevertheless I did get a higher attenuation than desired.

 I have had great results with mash temperatures this low but only for a
regular mash time (about 90 minutes).  So based on the responses, I think I
will conclude the low mash temperature is indeed the culprit, but its effect
was amplified by the long mash time.

The overnight mashing was a great time saver, and it seems that many have
had great success using it, so I won't give up on it; instead I think I'll
just shoot for a few degrees higher than I would before and see what
happens.  Also, I'll save the beers that I mash at a really high (158 F)
temperature for times when I can do a regular mash.  When I want a really
dry beer, it may be possible to use the overnight mashing at low temperature
effect to my advantage.  And finally,even though I don't think I'll be
entering them in any competitions, I'll see how these super-attenuated beers
taste down the line, as their flavor profiles werestill a bit promising
despite the known flaw.

thanks for the assistance
Tom Karnowski
Knoxville TN




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