HOMEBREW Digest #41 Fri 06 January 1989

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		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

  Bottles in Colorado (m20502)
  Adding sugar?? (Jason Goldman)
  where to find bottles alternative (rogerl)
  steriliziing bottles (Pete Soper)
  Re: stuff on the walls (rutgers!cs.rochester.edu!olson)
  bottle sterilization (sp?) (ephram)
  Re: hard cider (dw)
  malt extract prices (arthure)
  A variety of topics... (CRF)
  Saran Wrap and Bottles (Jim Haselmaier )
  Chimay Ale. (KARLIN)

Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 08:57:11 EST From: m20502 at d82vms.mitre.org Subject: Bottles in Colorado Response to R. Stern about bottles in Co Although I don't live in Colorado, I have done a bit of climbing there. In my travels, I seem to recall that Coors came in long neck bottles just like Bud does in Massachusetts. These data points are 1.5 years old. The towns were Buena Vista, and Colorado Springs. When I was up north we bought Boulder Ale in stores. Matt Harris Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 07:01:59 mst From: Jason Goldman <hp-lsd!jdg> Subject: Adding sugar?? Full-Name: Jason Goldman I bought ingredients for my second batch this past weekend. I got a kit for Laaglaander's Irish Stout (chosen fairly at random). Reading the instructions, I noticed that it said to add sugar to the malt before fermentation. The little bit of reading that I've done has suggested that this is not a good idea, because sugar can give a 'cidery' taste to the beer. This last was in some of the stuff I got from Williams when I got my kit, so I don't know how true and/or noticable it is. The Laaglaander kit came with advanced instructions as well. These said that you could eliminate sugar (in the fermentation) if you used two cans of malt. Is this worthwhile. From what I've read, I'd say yes (probably), but I'd like some expert advice. Thanks, Jason Goldman hplabs!hp-lsd!jdg Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 09:56:20 EST From: rogerl at Think.COM Subject: where to find bottles alternative Ridchard Stern, Dick Dunn Roger Rose et al Have you ever considered champagne bottles. Yes, they're a bit larger (25.4 oz) but they certainly can handle the pressure. Champagne can reach 90P.S.I.. And they have a nice shoulder at the lip, so normal bottle caps work nicely. If you frequent a restaurant or live near a place that has one of those Sunday Morning Champagne Brunchs, you may have a ready source of large bottles. If you frequent a place and getting to know the staff it makes it easier to ask for their empties. This past New Years Party at a small local restaurant netted me 2 cases. The current batch of Gingered Ale in the fermentor is destine for these critters. Although, I can not profess being the orginator of this idea. I believe I picked this idea up out of a recent issue of Zymurgy. Roger Locniskar rogerl at think.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 11:35:36 est From: Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com> Subject: steriliziing bottles After I described how I use my oven to sterilize bottles, Dick Dunn warned of weakening bottles this way. I respect Dick very much and since he obviously has more experience I'd like everyone to forget this idea. I don't want to cause anyone to burst their bottles. I don't have labels on my bottles so I guess my marriage is safe Rob 8^). With respect to Rob's question about Saran Wrap, I use it for sealing the inch or so gap between my Bruheat lid and immersion wort chiller while the wort is cooling. I was curious about just how clean this stuff is. --Pete Soper Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 10:14:18 EST From: hplabs!rutgers!cs.rochester.edu!olson Subject: Re: stuff on the walls Somebody (jay h?) wrote: >One question a customer had last night which I couldn't answer. >Has anyone ever seen yeast settle out on the sides, yes sides, of a bottle. >This guy used corona bottles and said the yeast was clinging to the sides >as well as the bottom. I have never seen this before, but i don't use >clear bottles so if it had happened i wouldn't have known. My only attempt at brewing with lager yeast (dry, Edme I think) produced a very odd deposit on the walls of the bottles. The recipe was TCJoHB's "hordeaceous Dutch delite", ie 2 cans of Laaglander light hopped extract, water and yeast (how's that for a detailed recipe?). I bottled in my large collection of used Molson bottles. In addition to the usual yeast layer at the bottom, after 5-6 weeks I began to see lots of little blobs on the walls. They were the size and color of dried yeast granules. Spinning the bottles shook the blobs off the walls, but to my surprise they didn't settle out. Instead, they hung suspended near the walls. By careful pouring I was able to keep them out of my glasses, and (with some trepidation) went on drinking. The flavor btw was fine if a bit boring -- nice malt sweetness, lots of esters, but insufficiently bitter and (of course) lacking any hop character. At the time I blamed the deposit on the yeast. Now that I think of it, though, the last few bottles (at 12 weeks or so) gushed quite badly, so there probably was a bacterial infection involved as well. I've made continuous small improvements in my sanitation procedures, and haven't seen anything like it since -- but I've steered clear of lagers, so who knows. That leads to a question -- we know that lager yeasts are slow starters, prefer colder temperatures et cetera. Do they have other behavioral peculiarities that are worth talking about? Do they precipitate differently? leave the same color guck in the bottom of the fermenter? smell the same? etc, etc, curiously yours, Tom Olson Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 09:20:51 PST From: ephram at violet.Berkeley.EDU Subject: bottle sterilization (sp?) First let me express my appreciation for this newsletter being here. My local homebrew store seems a little "shifty" and always wants to sell me a solution. It will be nice having someplace else to go. Well here's my question. After I chlorinate my bottles I am supposed to rinse them out. Is tap water OK for this process? Should I boil up (yet more) water for this task? Can I just let them drip dry? thanx We must prevent those commies from compromising the integrity of our precious bodily fluids. -Gen. Jack D. Ripper Ephram Cohen ephram at violet.berkeley.edu 466 44th St. #1 3210 Tolman Hall Oakland, CA 94609 Berkeley, CA 94720 Return to table of contents
Date: 3 Jan 89 15:11:40 EST (Tuesday) From: dw <Wegeng.Henr at Xerox.COM> Subject: Re: hard cider In my previous message on this subject, I typo'ed the following sentence: "...cider does not contain sugar so that, when it is fermented, there will be enough alcohol to prevent it from spoiling." What I meant to say was that "...cider does not contain *enough* sugar..." Cider does contain sugar, but not enough to result in 9-10% alcohol after fermentation is complete. Sorry if I confused anyone. /Don Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 13:20:55 PST From: sco!arthure at ucscc.UCSC.EDU Subject: malt extract prices If malt extract prices are high, it might be because of the drought. Barley harvests have been off, and the barley that is being harvested in affected areas is higher in protein and lower in those crucial starches than is desireable for making malt. So, we probably have a higher price per pound for barley, combined with a lower yeild of fermentable sugars per pound of grain, and more trub all around. '88 won't go down in history as a great year for malt. Also, in regard to Dave's comments about his cider: most champagne probably tastes pretty cheap two months after bottling ... You might want to give your cider more time. -arthur Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 89 18:03 EDT From: <CRF%IFASGNV.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> Subject: A variety of topics... Hello, all! I'm going to combine a whole bunch of things into one posting. This constitutes fair warning... MEDOC: There is most definitely a variety of wine by this name, but I've never heard it applied to beer. As to ingredients, preparation, etc.: use whatever malt you want (light, dark, DME, syrup). For hops, I would lean towards Fuggles or Hallertauer, but then I usually like those hops. Northern Brewer would be good for heavy bitterness, and for a very hoppy finish American Cascades is always good. Mostly, though, a few words about the honey. DON'T USE "SUE BEE" or any other blended-to-death honey!! Go to a health food store, or some other kind of store which sells raw honey in bulk, and use that. The type of honey used will most definitely affect the final flavor. Orange blossom and clover honeys are very mild and pleasant; others such as gallberry are more acid but still delicious. One of the best honeys I ever came across was some avocado honey a friend gave me! When adding honey to a hot liquid, stir *constantly!* If the honey has a chance to hit the bottom of a hot pot, it will caramelize and scorch. When cooking honey, a frothy scum forms, which needs to be skimmed off. For this reason, you might want to dissove the honey in some boiling water prior to adding the malt. Finally, plan on aging your beer anywhere from 9 months to 2 years when using honey. The structure of the sugar in honey almost inevitably requires a lengthy period of aging. SAKE: Am now trying to procure a recipe for Mr. Haberman. SARAN WRAP/FOIL AND STERILITY: I have always assumed these products to be relatively bacteria-free, and used them accordingly with no problems. I base my assumption on the fact that both products are produced at high temperatures, and are not of themselves suitable media for bacterial growth. BOTTLE PROCUREMENT: If one checks the dumpsters behind popular bars on Friday and Saturday nights between midnight and 2 AM or so, one can often salvage both bottles and cardboard cases. It's kind of an icky way to get bottles, but it _does_ work. Also good are some brands of soda bottles, especially "IBC" brand's root beer and sarsaparilla bottles. CRATES: Plastic milk crates, or better yet (but terribly rare now) the old wooden ones, can be very useful for storing bottles. If necessary, a plywood bottom can be added to prevent sagging. Other than that, everyone I know who has wooden cases has built their own. KEGS: I have read and been told that kegged homebrew tends to have problems with yeast stir-up when tapped. I have avoided trying kegging on this basis. Comments, anyone? I thank one and all for their attention. Cher Feinstein "CRF at IFASGNV.BITNET" Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 89 13:03:36 mst From: Jim Haselmaier <jimh at hpfcspm> Subject: Saran Wrap and Bottles Full-Name: Jim Haselmaier >> On another subject could someone with a microscope and stains >> tell me if Saran Wrap fresh off the roll is relatively bacteria free? >Fascinating question! What do you plan to do with the saran wrap, if >I might ask? I have a friend who used to be a Production Engineer on a Saran Wrap production line. Once she saw how the stuff was made, she decided not to use the first and last ten feet of any roll. That doesn't say much for the plastic that's in the middle; but it certainly is not intended to be "sterile". >> When I prepare to bottle, I put my cleaned bottles in my oven and >> bake them at 300 degrees for 30 minutes, then let them cool overnight. When I bottled my most recent batch I changed my method slightly which helped considerably in reducing my worrying. In general I get the most "nervous" when I bottle. I would place the sterilized bottles on the kitchen floor uncovered. There they would sit until filled; usually for about 30 minutes. Some friends told me they cover their bottles with paper towels ; which seemed like a good idea. But then I thought it would be even better to cover the bottle with a sterilized new bottle cap. When the bottle is sterile, I put a new bottle cap on top and set it on the floor. I only remove the cap when I actually fill the bottle. This process modification made me a much more sociable person (at least according to my wife) during the bottling task. ("Did you say you're going to bottle? I think I'll leave the house for a while.") Jim Haselmaier Hewlett-Packard jimh at hpfcspm.HP.COM Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 89 10:18:59 EST From: KARLIN at bnlcl1.bnl.gov Subject: Chimay Ale. I am a new subscriber who has a passion for a Trapist ale from Belgium called Chimay Grand Reserve. I have not been able to find it anywhere for some time. I am located on Long Island, NY and I've been in touch with the regional distributer without luck. I managed to get the "last bottle" in the Washington, DC area thanks to a friend, but that was a while ago. Chimay also makes other ales so I've been drinking their 500th Anniversary Ale, but now I've exhausted that supply. Can anyone offer any tips? Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest ************************ HOMEBREW Digest Fri 06 January 1989 FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator Contents: adding sugar, rinseing bottles, kegs (Jeff Miller) Seasonal Beers (This PIZZA symbolizes my COMPLETE EMOTIONAL RECOVERY!!) comments on adding sugar (rogerl) Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 89 14:11:07 CDT From: Jeff Miller <jmiller at unix.eta.com> Subject: adding sugar, rinseing bottles, kegs I have a few responses to add this time so please bear with. ADDED SUGAR: Jason Goldman's question about adding sugar as suggested by a kit is probably one of the more commonly debated queustions around and I have found myself shifting on it recently. I think a great many of us have always said use malt (I usually substitute with a pale dry malt) instead of sugar. Indeed if you are a reader of zymurgy it seems to be the number one suggestion that they offer. Well in the last zymurgy they tried to brew beer using sugar and malt and then do taste trials with the two types of beer along with a mixture of two commercial beers (I forgot which ones). It seemed that they were unable to actually get a real concensus as to which method was best. Since then I have been paying attention to homebrew kits and noticed that there is an incredible difference among them. In particular I have started to notice that some of the bigger buck kits I have been looking into ask for less sugar to be added and that the can actually contains more sugars. If anyone has other opinions or observations please pipe up. I haven't really ever tried brewing with lots of added sugar but a friend of mine started with lots of sugar and ended up with a much lighter bodied beer. His beer did have a cider taste and it was always strong in alcohol. In contrast my beer has usually been fairly heavy in body but also quite potent. I have noticed that my friend is starting to brew with less sugar and the beer seems to be getting better in taste while still keeping a fairly light body. He also likes to use dextrose sugar, cane, and corn sugars as a mixture rather then one type of sugar. I have been thinking about experimenting with my brewing practices to see what kind of beers I can make with other sugars. I have already tried brewing with rice (once with grain another time with an extract) and it seems to work pretty good but the beers seemed to be a bit more astringent. RINSEING BOTTLES: Ephram Cohen had asked about rinsing bottles with tap water and whether this might be OK. I would say go for it. I always rinse with tap water and I think it works great because it is fairly bacteria free and even has chlorine in it. I do like to rinse with cold water instead of hot water because I feel their would be less dissolved chlorine in it. I always try to let bottles sit for awhile after rinsing to allow chemicals to dissipate into the air rather then staying in the bottle. I think a bottle drying tree would be excellant for this and someday I may even get around to makeing one. KEGS: Cher Feinstein asked for comments on kegs since Cher claims to be avoiding kegs because of a potential yeast stir-up. I have a Cornelious keg system which when I use it works great. The yeast settles to the bottom of the keg right next to the discharge tube. When you tap the keg the yeast simply comes out for the first pitcher or two and then there is no more yeast left. This works great because you remove the yeast from the beer plus you get much better beer in a keg over bottles. I think you get better beer because the greater quantity allows everything to blen well but probably more is that there is much less oxygen to beer so less oxidation will go on. I don't really like my cornelious keg because of the connectors that I have but I will be cooking a batch this weekend that is inteded to be kegged in a 1/4 barrel keg. I took me awhile to locate bungs but now I got them and I'll be glad to let you know if I experience any "yeast stir-up" when I tap it. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 89 12:25:40 PST From: nosun!sharpwa!GODZLA.decnet!CROASDILL at Sun.COM (This PIZZA symbolizes my COMPLETE EMOTIONAL RECOVERY!!) Subject: Seasonal Beers G'Day, (12/15/88) Last week I went to a beer Christmas/Winter beer tasting at the Dublin pub in Portland, OR. hosted by Fred Ekhart (sp?). They served a sampling of 10 different regional and national beers of the season. Let me tell you, there are some really GOOD beers out there. I'll try to rate them as -5 to +5 judged on my linkings and those at the table with me. The ones we had were: 1) Oregon Trail Winter Ale (on tap) Oregon Trail Brewery, Corvallis OR. specifics - OG 1.042 ?% Alc Dextrin and 2-row malts Willamette and Tettanger hops (30 bitterness) This was billed as a 'Dry' style beer. It was pretty sweet though and quite cloudy. I thought it had a slightly sour taste, but that could have been from the 30 bitterness units... rated as average (0) Available only on tap. 2) Winter Hook (on tap) Independent Brewery (Red Hook), Seattle WA. specifics - OG 1.052 4.1% Alc. grains? B.C. Goldings and Willamette hops (50 bitterness) A British sytle Pale Ale. This is a new recipe from last year. What was Winter Hook has now become Red Hook ESB. Amber colored, the taste of the grains and hops come through very well. rated as good stuff (+3) Available on tap or in bottles. 3) Widmer Festbier (on tap) Widmer Brewery, Poortland, OR. specifics - OG 1.058 4.2% 2 row, Munich, Choc malts and Rosted Barley Perle, Tettanger and Hautauller hops Very hoppy, otherwise average. This is a german Altbier, wich is a german style ale, brewed at 60F then stored at <50F (lager temps) rated average (0) Available only on tap. 4) Winter Brew (on tap) Bridgeport brewery, Portland OR specifics - OG 1.057 ?% Scottish pale, Crystal and Brown malts BC Goldings, Northern Brewer (40 bitterness) 122F-155F single step infusion method WOW a great beer. I was too busy drinking and smiling to take notes. This is one to out of your way for (thankfully I don't have to go to far!) rated WOW (+4) Available only on tap. 5) WaSail (on tap) Hood River brewery (Full Sail Ale), Hood River OR. (wind surfer land) specifics - OG 1.060 5.1% 2 row, Crystal and Brit black malts Perle and Saaz hops The word for this beer is hops! This is a strong ale. The taste is very similar to Full Sail, only more body. rated very good (+2) Available only on tap. 6) Grant's Spiced Ale (aka Portland Winter Ale) (on tap) Grant's brewery, Yakama/Kirkland WA (Portland Brewery, Porland OR) specifics - OG 1.061 5.3% 2 row, 10% carmel malts. Galina and Cascade hops (30 bitteress) spices (guessed) Ginger, Cinnamon, Nutmeg, Clove, [Corriander?] Serve this beer warm or you won't get to enjoy it (110F). The taste is well rounded. The spices are evenly ballanced, and just remind you of sitting by a fire on a cold winter night in the mountains. I can't say enough about this beer. Drive well out of your way for this one. It will remind you why you love beer. rating (guess) AWESOME (+5) Available on tap or in bottles. 7) Anchor Christmas ale (bottle) Anchor Brewing, Bay Area(?) CA. specifics - OG 1.068 5.1% 2 row and Crystal malts ? hops (dry hopped) (60 bitterness) spices Allspice, Cinnamon, Anise (?) This is a very good spiced ale. Too bad we had it right after the Grant's. Again a lot of body in this brew. We had this one cold, but Fred says it'smuch better warmed. rating great (+3) Available on tap or in bottles. [Barley wines] 8) Snow Cap Ale (on tap) Hart brewing, Kalama, WA specifics - OG 1.074 7.0% 2 row, Carel, Amber, Brown malts. Torrified barley CJ 90 (Saaz relative) and Cascade hops This has a very rich, malty flavor. The hops are very present. Could use some more aging (was only 1 month old). Still very good. rating very good (+2). Available on tap or in bottles. 9) Old Knucklehead (on tap) Bridgeport brewery, Portland OR specifics - OG 1.092 7.1% Pale, Scottish, Crystal malts Rosted barley. Northern brewer, Kent golding hops (55 bitterness) Very smooth and malty. Brewed at various times, Bridgeport brewery always serves half and stores half for later. This is a very good example of a barly wine. rating WOW (+4). Available only on tap. 10)Samichlaus Beir (in bottle) Samichlaus brewery, Zeurich, Swz. specifics - ? 11.9% aged 1 year. Another great barley wine. We had this served with Bleu cheese. I didn't write too much down, this was a last beer in a long night, but I seem to remember that it was very good, even bodied and like that. All I wrote was WOW! so therefore... rating WOW (+4). Available only in bottles around christmas. (don't forget the cheese!) Well sorry about the spelling errors (I know they are there, "Damn it jim, I'm a programmer not a typist"). I hope this is of some use to you all out there. Hoppy holidays, May all of your brews be bright! Greg Croasdill UUCP: ...(tektronix | sun | percival)!nosun!sharpwa!gcc Snail: Sharp Microelectronics fone : (206) 253-3738 Vancouver,WA (the other Vancouver) "Don't believe everything you read" Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 89 13:30:27 EST From: rogerl at Think.COM Subject: comments on adding sugar Jason, Your reading serves you well. If you add sugar as you suggested, and I interpretted, the brew will get a 'cidery' taste, I know, it happen to a friend of mine. Add any sugar to the wort *during* the boil, not after. I much prefer all malt brews myself and would go with adding another can of extract or getting some of the dried Laaglaander Malt, about 2 to 3 lbs. for a 5 gal. batch. Since you have already sprung for the top shelf stuff, I would stay away from sugar as much as you can. Good Luck and remember, Relax, Don't Worry and Have a homebrew. Roger Locniskar Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest
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