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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  recirculation troubles. (Wendy & Reuben Filsell)
  CF Chillers ("Pekarik Kress")
  Gas or Electric heat for homebrewing ("Steve & Deb Fenske")
  RE: Quick Carbonation (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Circulation in carboy (David Harsh)
  Re: Quick Carbonation (Jeff Renner)
  swirling in active fermentation from _____? ("Haborak, Kevin")
  Diastatic Malt Extract ("Dan Listermann")
  Boiling of grains with Extract in Malt Extract brewing or Partial (LJ Vitt)
  Recirculation/FIlters (AJ)
  swirling in active fermentation from _____? (Demonick)
  Conical ferment design....the dump/rack ports? (FRASERJ)
  Smoked Beer Attempt. (home)
  Re: DME/Grain ("Steve Alexander")
  Grain Equivalents? (Teresa Knezek)
  re: Boiling of grains with Extract in Malt Extract brewing or Partial ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Brewing as a job (Bill Wible)
  re: swirling in active fermentation from _____? ("Steve Alexander")
  RE: DME/Grain ("Doug Hurst")
  Feeding Spent Grain to Horses ("Bernd Neumann")
  Re: Feeding Spent Grain to Horses (Pat Babcock)
  Re: Boiling of grains, etc... (Max Hayes)


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Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 18:12:46 +0800
From: Wendy & Reuben Filsell <filsell at myplace.net.au>
Subject: recirculation troubles.



> From: homebrew-request@hbd.org (Request Address Only - No Articles)
> Reply-To: homebrew at hbd.org (Posting Address Only - No Requests)
> Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 00:25:19 -0500
> To: homebrew at hbd.org
> Subject: Homebrew Digest #4111 (December 05, 2002)
> 
> Can the collective help with offering some ideas ?  I'm looking for a new
> wort collection method because recirculation takes way too long in my
> opinion. 

1. If your false bottom is more than 15mm above the bottom of the tun you
will always have trouble as this causes a pressure differential that
compacts your mash.

2. Mash out at 77-78C helps a lot particularly with high gravity wort.

3. If you insist on the fine grind try adding a few litres of rice hulls to
the mash to loosen it up a bit.

Good luck 
Reuben
W.A.



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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:40:04 -0500
From: "Pekarik Kress" <gotchagoat at sentex.net>
Subject: CF Chillers

Hi Folks

I am in the market for a CF Chiller and have narrowed down to deciding
between the
convoluted copper CF Chiller from St Pats or Chillzilla from Great
Fermentations.
I prefer the way the St Pats chiller wort in and exit face the same
direction but I am concerned
that they say the copper is out of round at the ends due to manufacturing so
I may not be able
solder or compression fit to the chiller.

I have a small window of time to get either shipped as my wife has some
business in
Dayton Ohio. She can bring it across the border home to Canada so I can save
the duty charge.
SO CALLED FREE TRADE!!!

I welcome any persons experience of either chillers.
Please reply privately.

Thank you

Larry Kress
Rockwood, Ontario, Canada
Email: gotchagoat at sentex.net



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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 07:02:54 -0600
From: "Steve & Deb Fenske" <stevedebfenske at charter.net>
Subject: Gas or Electric heat for homebrewing

I recent made the switch to all-grain brewing in my basement.  After a
couple of batches, I need to built either a 3-tier system or ideally a RIMS
system.  What is the best heat source for brewing in a basement...electric
or gas (propane or natural gas)?  And what are the advantages/disadvantages
of the two?  Please advise.  Thanks.

Steve Fenske
stevedebfenske at charter.net
http://fenskes.tripod.com



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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:39:39 -0500 
From: "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Quick Carbonation

Marc doesn't like the quick carbonation method, talking about jacking up the
pressure and shaking the bejesus out of it.

Like Jeff, I agree that there isn't any difference in carbonation quality
between the slow traditional method and the quick method, which Jeff uses.

Mark T also doesn't like it because he can't control the carbonation level.

So now for my comments: Every beer I make (20-30 kegs a year) is carbonated
with the quick method, but not exactly as described. I found a writeup on
this method several years ago by Robert Arguello (Where are you, Robert?)
and have been using it with great satisfaction ever since. I can literally
carbonate and tap the keg within 15 minutes, and get consistent results.
Like the standard method, this process relies on keg temp & CO2 pressure,
and adds a time factor.

I chill the keg to 40F, set the CO2 gauge to 35 psi, and lay the keg
horizontally across my knees with the gas in QD down. Connect the gas QD,
start a timer, and gently sway the keg from side to side, moving your knees
about 6" side to side & back about once per second, like rocking a baby. You
can hear the gas bubbling in, and the beer sloshing around, but it isn't
violent enough to cause a lot of foaming. It seems to work best if there is
a liter or so of head space. Do this for 3.5 minutes for low carb level, 4.5
minutes for medium carb level, 5.5-6 minutes for high carb level. Then
disconnect the gas, and continue rocking for a few minutes to lower the
pressure in the head space. Wait 5 minutes, release the pressure, then apply
dispensing pressure and draw a cold one. Perfect!!

You can use different temps & pressures, and adjust your times accordingly.
For lower temps, decrease time; for lower pressures, increase time.  With
experience (trial and error) you will soon get to the point when you will
nail it every time.

A couple of pointers: 
1. Use an insulating pad between the keg and your knees - it gets cold!
2. If you don't have a check valve on your CO2 line, be sure to loop the
line above the keg to prevent liquid backup in the line.


Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN; State of Franklin Homebrewers
http://hbd.org/franklin
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
Member: AHA, AHA Board of Advisors, and AHA Liaison
Have a suggestion on improving the AHA? email me at stevejones at aob.org




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Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 08:44:35 -0500
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Circulation in carboy

Jens B. Jorgensen <jbj1 at ultraemail.net> asks:
> what is driving the currents? My first inclination
> was that perhaps the yeast activity is generating heat and this is
> causing convection currents. Any opinions out there?

There simply isn't enough of a temperature differential in a carboy to
have significant thermal convection currents.  Fermentation is
exothermic, but not that much!  

The bubbles are ultimately the cause of circulation and the bits of trub
and yeast flocs are simply entrained in the fluid motion.  Many years
ago, I made some crude measurements and found that the rise velocity of
the bubbles was fairly well described by Stokes Law, at least within the
(amazingly huge) margin of error of my measurements.  (Before you ask, I
have no idea where the data are at this point - I was trying to put
together a useful lab experiment in fluid mechanics and the attempt was
NOT successful)

Dave Harsh						Cincinnati, OH
Bloatarian Brewing League


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Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 08:39:14 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Quick Carbonation

"Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com> of Gainesville,FL wrote:

>I don't really like the quick-carb method either, because I always seem to
>overdo it and end up with the beer too highly carbonated.

It is simply a matter of technique.  It's all in the wrist.  ;-)

Here's how I do it with no overcarbonation.  Let's say that I know 
that the carbonation I want is saturation at 10 psi and 45 deg. F 
(see widely available tables).  I stop every once in a while and 
reduce the pressure over a couple of minutes while I continue to 
shake (the keg, not me) and listen for how much the bubbling slows as 
I approach 10 psi/45 deg.  It is still bubbles fairly fast, I crank 
the pressure back up to 30 psi or whatever and shake it a while 
longer, then do this same check.

After a while I can detect that I'm approaching the end point by the 
fact that the gas doesn't bubble very much at the target pressure. 
That's when I just finish by shaking at that pressure until no 
bubbles enter.

With experience, you can judge how often to drop the pressure and 
check.  You don't need to do it very often at first, but at the end 
you do.  I suppose I might drop it a half dozen times.

When shaking a corney, I sit down and lay it across my knees and rock 
it back and forth by lifting one knee, then the other.  For a Sankey, 
I roll it back and forth on its side.  In either case, it helps to 
have a little head space for sloshing as that helps the gas dissolve 
faster.

I've carbonated a chilled flat beer in maybe 20-30 minutes this way.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 05:44:32 -0800 
From: "Haborak, Kevin" <KHaborak at golder.com>
Subject: swirling in active fermentation from _____?

Jens B. Jorgensen asks about the convection currents:

>>My first inclination 
was that perhaps the yeast activity is generating heat and this is 
causing convection currents. Any opinions out there?

My guess would be that it is the CO2 gas that is escaping causing the
currents.  


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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:17:25 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Diastatic Malt Extract

 "Romanowsky, Paul" <paul.romanowsky at siemens.com> asks about diastatic malt
extract.  It is extract that has not had the enzymes denatured ( destroyed).
It was used in homebrewing to convert non enzyme bearing adjuncts like
oatmeal and maize to sugar in batches that had no pale malt.  I use the past
tense because I don't believe diastatic malt extract is produced for brewing
anymore.  John Bull did it for a while and the long time supplier, Edme, is
now gone.  In the production of diastatic extract the enzymes were preserved
by skipping the pasteurizing step.  This put the twang on shelf life.  Most
cans bulged to one degree or another.  We kept our stock in the fridge in an
attempt to limit bulging.  I understand that there are extracts intended for
cooking that are still diastatic.  My personal experiences with cooking
extracts used for beer making were disasters.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:46:02 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Boiling of grains with Extract in Malt Extract brewing or Partial

Paul R. writes about some confusing statements he found in a book
titled "Brew Your Own Real Ale At Home" by Graham Wheeler & 
Roger Protz. 

I find the statements Paul quoted confusing too.

Diastatic properties is an important quality for malted grains.
Pale ale malt is an example of a malt with a lot of diastatic power.
Crystal malt is an example that has none.

Malts that do not need mashing (crystal, chocolate, roasted barley,
there are more) are good ones to steep before adding extract to
a mainly extract beer.

Base malts (pale ale, Munich, Vienna, pils) are good ones to mash.
Partial mash recipes are ones that have some of the fermentables
come from mashing.  Then extract is added to the wort (not the mash)
that comes out of sparging the grains.

I think a good book for partial mash explanation is C.Papazian's
New Complete Joy of Homebrewing - Actually I have the old one.
I hear one of Dave Miller's books does a good job too.  I 
expect Homebrew Vol 1 does it well too.

Partial mashing lets you get some more flavors out of malts without
depending on it to deliver gravity.  You can also boil part of the
beer, that is condensed, and add sanitized dechlorinated water
to the fermenter.

Boil time - When I did partial mashes, I ran boil times of about one
hour like I did for straight extract brews.  All grain however, 
should have longer boils. You frequently need to condense the wort
in the boil and it helps with protein coagulation.


Paul also had something about his uncarbonated beer.  Your making
a good choice - make sure the beer is warm enough and shaking bottles
can stir up the yeast.  If it's on the cool side, the yeast may be
dormate.


=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 15:56:30 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Recirculation/FIlters

One way to decrease the time required for vorlauf and at the same time 
decrease the chances of a stuck mash and increase the brigthnes of th 
runoff is to add rice hulls to the mash before transfer to the lauter 
tun. The rice hulls are inexpensive, flavor neutral and, as they are put 
in just before vorlauf/lauter, not subject to the damage to which the 
barley hulls may have been subjected in milling or mash handling. They 
are especially beneficial for beers made with malted wheat which is 
huskless.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

There is (or perhaps was - their url returns a message to the effect 
that there is no site at this address) outfit called the Filter Store 
which sold all kinds of filters. They put out a little kit for home 
brewers consisting of a pleated filter cartridge in a housing like those 
used for whole house water filters, swimming pools and so on. Filter 
cartriges were available in a variety of sizes (1 micron, 5 microns 
etc). These worked well for small volumes of beer which from which the 
yeast were pretty well flocculated. They gave a really nice bright beer. 
With larger volumes and less flocculent yeast they'd get clogged before 
the run was over and changing/cleaning/sterilizing in the middle of the 
run was a real pain.

I put everything in the past tense because I can't get to the website. 
Don't know if that's a temporary problem or if they have gone out of 
business.

A.J.




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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:14:07 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: swirling in active fermentation from _____?


Answer is --- CO2 production.  Note that the churning tracks with the CO2
production as indicated by the airlock.

I have always assumed that it was the CO2 bubbles.  As the bubbles rise
they create an "upwelling" current in the carboy.  Somewhere else there
must be a "downwelling" current created or the beer would levitate :-)

Also, CO2 bubbles can be trapped in or stick to bits of trub in which case
they become "beerborne" debris.  This material transfer also creates
upwelling currents.  

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com





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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:06:45 -0500
From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com
Subject: Conical ferment design....the dump/rack ports?

I have been looking at a conical for ages now.  Several posters have talked
about buying them, others building them.  I have seen the conical hoppers
at www.toledometalspinning.com and like them, the price is pretty good.  I
have added up the costs involved and figure I can do it cheaper than the
ready made jobs, I figure around $350 for a 12.5 gallon conical, assuming
three hours of welding at $52/hr (www.microweld.qpg.com in Columbus, OH).

Question is, the dump valve size.  I can get the stuff for a 1/2" dump
valve setup from McMaster.com, a stainless valve is only 22$, but then I
recall seeing a post where someone was questioning whether that would be
large enough.  I could get an 1" dump but wonder what the advantages are?
If I do the 1" dump, do I need a seperate 1/2" racking port added?  I am
guessing this might put me on par with buying a pre-made conical if I have
to have both of the ports!

I can imagine the 1" valve would allow a rush of fluid, which could
possibly help purge all the trub and/or yeast sediment quickly, whereas the
1/2" might just create a "hole" in the sediment with the draining beer
"dragging" sediment with it.

John M. Fraser
http://rims-brewing.tripod.com





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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:58:27 -0500 (EST)
From: home at fennessey.com
Subject: Smoked Beer Attempt. 


Style:23A    Smoke Beers
      Classic Rauchbier

I was going to Smoke some German Vienna Grains(2lbs) with beech wood(1
hour, soaked chips with water) on a grill, then Seep the smoked grains in
the wort for 30 minutes at 170 degrees. Could I smoke them longer? Maybe
another type of grain.

6 Gallons to start - Finish with about 5 Gallons.

add:
Amber Dry Malt Extract   5.00  lb
(Not Mashing yet)

60 minutes
Tettnanger               1.00   oz
Hallertauer              1.00   oz

Last 30 minutes:
1/2 lb of Catskill Region Honey

20 minutes
Irish Moss

2 Minutes Finishing Hops
Hersbruckr


Pitch:
WLP830 German Lager Yeast


Any thoughts. I will bottle and keg.   I don't like the idea of adding
liquid smoke or the German smoked grain since I want to smoke the grains
myself on the grill.   The beech wood is being used to stay away from any
bbq flavor.  The honey is suppose to add some sweatness and coloring. 
Thanks for any input.


Smoked Beer Attempt(Underline)

 -Patrick
home at fennessey.com









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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:32:41 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net>
Subject: Re: DME/Grain

I'll buy that amber extract can probably be emulated with pils malt and
crystal.  I also agree with Doug Hurst that Munich malt as the primary malt
and maybe some crystal and pils on top is the way to for dark bocks.  But
chocolate malt in a bock ????

OK - 2-3 oz of chocolate won't ruin a bock, but the style is supposed to be
smooth as heck and any roast malt addition is questionable.

 -S




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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:23:58 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: Grain Equivalents?

OK... I've just been tipped off to the fact that buying big bags of 
grain is a lot cheaper than buying little jars of extract. So... can 
anyone give me an all grain recipe equivalent to 7lbs. of John Bull 
dark malt extract? That's what I used in my stout last time, and lack 
of alcohol aside, that was one incredibly tasty beer.
- -- 
Teresa - Two Rivers, Alaska [2849, 325] Appt. Rennerian
"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices
have very few virtues."  -- Abraham Lincoln


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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:59:19 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net>
Subject: re: Boiling of grains with Extract in Malt Extract brewing or Partial

1/ I wouldn't boil grist for parial mash.  Al Korzonas' book advises a 30min
steep and then removal of the grist before boiling.

2/ A boil performs several function but there are no critical functions
involved in extending the boil beyond 1 hour.  If you choose to boil for 1.5
or 2 hours the wort will become a bit darker, more concentrated and a small
additional amount of break may form.  A little extra caramelization and
maillard products appear, but not very much extra over the 1hr unless the
wort is very thick.

3/ Most dried or liquid malt extracts are non-diastatic - they have no
active enzymes.  It's possible to purchase diastatic malt syrups which
contain active enzymes.   You only need this if you use or handle the
partial mash malts in a way that releases starch.  For details I'd refer you
to AlK's book for which I posted a link a few days back 'Homebrewing: Vol
1".

 -S




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Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 14:49:27 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Brewing as a job

I'm not a professional brewer, but I know a couple guys
who are.  And not to be negative, but my understanding
of "brewing as a job" is that it isn't all it's cracked
up to be.

I also think there's not as much money in beer as we've
been lead to believe, unless you're AB and are moving
hundreds of thousands of cases per day.

First off, to say that "pay is modest" for entry level
jobs is an understatement.  The fact is that entry level
brewer jobs are really lousy work, and for really lousy
pay, if you can even get a job.  Many are minimum wage.

Second, brewing is mostly grunt work. To us homebrewers,
it might seem like a great job - even glamorous.  But
the truth is that there are huge mash tuns full of hundreds
or even thousands of pounds of spent grain and hops waiting
to be emptied out.  In all but the newest, most expensive
and most up to date systems, this requires someone to shovel
it.   That someone is YOU.

Professional brewers also work alot of "off hours", brewing
at 2 and 3 am, through the night, etc.  And the nature
of the work is not all recipe formulation and planning
great brews. In fact, as far as recipe calculation or
formulation goes, how about you don't get to do it at all.

In professional brewing, consistency is key.  Every batch
of beer produced should be exactly the same as the last.
You don't disappoint and lose customers that way.  So
variance and trying new things is out of the question.
More than one professional brewer has posted here saying
how he envies us homebrewers, who are free to create whatever
we want, because they aren't.  No creative freedom here.

The only way to go is if you start a brewery and are the
owner. And to do that, you'll need "connections".  And
a couple million dollars.  We had one brewery here in
Phila who started on a shoestring budget of 3 million
dollars and said they never had enough money from day 1.
They went out of business last year.

Been through Siebel or Weihenstephen?  You'll basically have
to do that if you want to start your own brewery or brewpub,
or if you want ANY respect as a professional brewer.  Otherwise,
"What do YOU know?" and why should anybody hire you, especially
when there are usually a few hundred others who want the same
job.  With no credentials, you're just a hack.

Professional brewing is nothing glamorous, and more often
than not, there's no money in it, especially on a small
scale.  Failed breweries and brewpubs are a too common tale
here.  We've lost at least 3 here in the past 2 years.  2 of
those had previous history and were almost household names
in this area.

When you're in it for yourself, there's lots of stuff to
contend with.  Distributors are a whole 'nother game.
They'll do anything to shave 50 cents off a case.  And why
should any distributor want to carry YOUR new or startup
beer when they already have a market for a known brand?
And why would any bar want to replace a known selling tap
(even if it is Coor's Light) with a new and unknown beer?
They'll break your stones and ask for alot of money off to
do it, IF they'll do it at all.  So again, where's the
money?

And you get to deal with all of this for the privilege
of being allowed to compete with corporate giants like
AB, Miller, and Coors, who have exclusive advertising
contracts and seemingly unlimited advertising budgets.
Not to mention that they can sell beer for about a third
to a quarter of what you can.  They'll squash you like
a bug.

My advice is DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!  Read a book by
Philip Van Munching, called "Beer Blast" to get the real
inside scoop on professional brewing.  It will surprise
you.

Bill



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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:02:21 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net>
Subject: re: swirling in active fermentation from _____?

Jens asks ... about the swirling turbulence in his carboy fermenter.

>My first inclination 
>was that perhaps the yeast activity is generating heat and this is 
>causing convection currents.

Yeast fermentation does cause a fair bit of heating but it's fairly
even in a small carboy.  To cause a convection current there
must be temperature differentials and not just a temperature
increase. 

Most of the motion in a small fermenter is due to the buoyancy
of the CO2 released by fermentation and often trapped in small
particles.

Large commercial fermenters do have thermal convection effects
since the central portion of the fermenter is warmest and the outer
wall is actively cooled during fermentation.  Some designs like the
cylindro-conicals have a deeper center and so more CO2 evolves
from the center, less near the walls and this differential on CO2
evolution causes a circulating flow pattern too.

The circulation is generally good for fermentation since it increase
the contact between yeast and fermentables and releases CO2
which inhibits fermentation.  The amounts and timing of this
flow is ineffective in a small fermenter.  One recent 2002 paper
which studied fermentation at various levels of stirring agitation
suggests the peak rate of fermentation occurs at the same amount
of circulation as the peak circulation in a 4000 hectoliter (3400bbl)
CCV.  Even Microbrew CCVs aren't big enough st circulation causes
optimal fermentation.  The authors suggest that mechanical stirring
would be more effective since they aren't dependent on the
fermentation rate.

 -S





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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:03:39 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: RE: DME/Grain


Steve said:

"I also agree with Doug Hurst that Munich malt as the primary malt
and maybe some crystal and pils on top is the way to for dark bocks.
But
chocolate malt in a bock ????
OK - 2-3 oz of chocolate won't ruin a bock, but the style is supposed to
be smooth as heck and any roast malt addition is questionable."


The inclusion of Chocolate malt in my reply was simply as a color
additive and because I was trying to justify it as an ingredient in the
original recipe.  Chocolate is, in my limited experience, the smoothest
dark roast malt.  I agree that it's a questionable addition though.  I
don't use it in my bocks.  In fact I believe my last bock was actually
100% Munich. 

You could probably get the darker color with 100L Crystal instead.  I
still wonder how they get the darker bocks and dopplebocks so dark
without a dark roast.  I'm thinking of Celebrator.


Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[215, 264.5] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 20:29:28 +0000
From: "Bernd Neumann" <homebrewz at hotmail.com>
Subject: Feeding Spent Grain to Horses

Greetings,

Is it possible to feed spent brewing grains to horses
(in moderation of course)? I was wondering if it was
unhealthy/bad/ or otherwise not good.

Thanks,
Bernie Neumann KB2EBE, Schoharie, NY
Leatherstocking Quaffers & Scoffers, Oneonta, NY



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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:49:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Feeding Spent Grain to Horses


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, "Bernd Neumann" <homebrewz at hotmail.com>

> Is it possible to feed spent brewing grains to horses
> (in moderation of course)? I was wondering if it was
> unhealthy/bad/ or otherwise not good.

According to the Lovely Kim's horse's vet, yup! Mix it in with
his regular feed. Be sure to not let it sour, though.


- -- 
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God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:25:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Max Hayes <toxicbrewer at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Boiling of grains, etc...

    Hmm.. I think I might be able to help you out here
a bit...
    
    First, personally, I would -never- boil steeping
grains. If they are boiled for more than, say, 10
minutes are so, you're more than likely going to get a
blechhy astringent note in your finished beer. I've
never boiled my steeping grains, but I boiled the
spices (cinnamon, nutmeg, and cloves) for about 30
minutes in the first Holiday Ale that I made, and it
came out with a noticeable astringent aftertaste. Of
course, I still drank it, but I don't recommend it to
anyone else. Why this book wants you to boil your
steeping grains I am at a loss, but I wouldn't try it.
   
    Secondly, in regards to an extended boil time,
this is also a bit unusual. I extend my boil times to
around 2 hours or so only when I'm making darker beers
that I want to add a caramelly note to, as this amount
of boiling tends to caramalize a portion of the wort.
Definately not a procedure for all beers, by any
means...

    Lastly, regarding diastatic malt syrup, or DMS,
I'm assuming it's use in partial mashing is because of
its high enzyme level, which results in a higher
potential for starch conversion (diastatic power) than
non-diastatic extracts..

                         Max Hayes



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