HOMEBREW Digest #4158 Thu 30 January 2003

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  Re: Oxidation in bottle-conditioned beers (Thomas Rohner)
  Re: Oxidation and Bottle Conditioned Beer (Fred L Johnson)
  Re: Klingons Dead Ahead ("John R. Prather")
  Re: Beer Dispensing (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
  Re: Oxidation and Bottle Conditioned Beer ("John Misrahi")
  No Krausen ("Ian Watson")
  HERMS and such ("Chuck Dougherty")
  Bare Knuckle Battle Brewing (Bob Hall)
  saflager s-23 (Marc Sedam)
  Re: Corny keg o-ring replacement ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Re: No Sparge Lauter Rate (Denny Conn)
  RE: brew days, HSA debate, and DCL yeasts (Brian Lundeen)
  Re: Kind of Long: Oxidation and Bottle Conditioned Beer ("Tidmarsh Major")
  Anchor Steam's Christmas Ale (Todd Phillips)
  Re: DCL yeast again (Ubu Roi)
  Replacing keg o-rings (David Towson)
  Mash efficiency ("Parker Dutro")
  Re: Electric brewers and herms (David Towson)
  RE: HERMS - anyone using a manifold? (Kent Fletcher)
  3068 Yeast ("Mike Brennan")
  RE: Home Depot Utility Pump for RIMS...is it feasible? (Kent Fletcher)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:35:55 +0100 From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch> Subject: Re: Oxidation in bottle-conditioned beers Hello John i don't know how many potential staling components you have in your beers.(Not a hard enough boil, hotside aeration, oxygenation while transfering as the most important ones) We brewed 150+ batches allgrain in the last 3 years, and bottled most of it. We use DME to prime. Dave Miller's book is one of the best and most complete books in english. But the emphasis in this line is on live-yeast. That should happen anyway, as long as there is fermentable sugar around.(which of course you add for bottle- conditioning) As far as i understood, the yeast metabolizes the most oxygen right at the start of the fermenting cycle.(when the buggers prepare to reproduce) Now my idea: If you have too much yeast in your bottling bucket, they don't need to reproduce that much and therefore don't take up that much oxygen. We have beers that are over a year old, but we store it in our walk-in cooler at 4 Celsius. That makes a difference for shure. We also have most of our beers above or around 12-13 Plato (1.048). I would put away a couple bottles in the fridge, and keep some of the same batch at room temp. Then after some time compare them. I hope it helps Thomas Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 06:36:51 -0500 From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com> Subject: Re: Oxidation and Bottle Conditioned Beer John is concerned that his bottled beer is getting oxidized in only one month after careful racking and avoiding hot side aeration as much as possible. The beer simply doesn't taste as "good" in about a month compared to after it carbonated. I believe I know what John is experiencing as I, too, have agonized over this phenomenon for quite a while with my ales. I have come to the conclusion that what I have experienced and what John is probably experiencing is: 1) the loss of some residual sweetness that hangs around for only a short while (perhaps on only about a week or two after you have concluded that the beer is carbonated well enough and you've start drinking them) and 2) the loss/change of some hop flavor and aroma. Said differently, when the last sweet sugars are consumed by the yeast and the fresh hop flavor dissipates, the beer seems to lose some "maltiness" and "freshness" and the bittering hops or other flavors become more prominent. Please, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm as frustrated as John is with this phenomenon. (Lately I'm having to deal with the flavor imparted by dusty malt, but I won't bring that up again.) - -- Fred L. Johnson Apex, North Carolina, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 08:27:51 -0500 From: "John R. Prather" <rodpr at iquest.net> Subject: Re: Klingons Dead Ahead Well, the Romulan Ale wouldn't be that difficult but it might be hard to find the 3 row and 9 row barley and the Romulan Yeast >I was lucky enough to catch the original Trouble with Tribbles >and the new one (don't remember the title) when they were aired back to >back. I recorded them of course and the whole family likes to watch >them together. >Now if they only gave a recipe for Romulan Ale! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:29:08 -0500 From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com> Subject: Re: Beer Dispensing Bob, I bought mine from Micromatic www.micromatic.com. They have a very nice line of beverage dispensing products. Top of the line quality. The price was reasonable, but not free. I think I got what I paid for. I don't have the catalog with me and they don't have the prices on their web site. It comes in 50', 100' or 500' spools. They do have a very nice low priced CO2 regulator with a dial instead of a screw to change the pressure. NAJASC!! We Make the Beer We Drink!!!! Bob Barrett Ann Arbor, MI (2.8, 103.6) Rennerian Very, very close to the center of the homebrewing universe!!!!!! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:42:47 -0500 From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca> Subject: Re: Oxidation and Bottle Conditioned Beer Fred, Thanks for the thoughts. After more discussion and contemplation, I believe a key factor is storage temperature. I have a friend who bottles a large amount of his brews, and stores them all at cool temperatures, and I believe most of them are in fact kept refrigerated. I tasted several beers of his , some which were a year or more old, and none of them suffered from what I have come to experience with my own beers. I believe that is what my problem is, and I will move my stash into the cooler garage for now, and then begin looking for a second-hand beer fridge. John Montreal,Canada > >I have come to the conclusion that what I have experienced and what John is >probably experiencing is: >1) the loss of some residual sweetness that hangs around for only a short >while (perhaps on only about a week or two after you have concluded that the >beer is carbonated well enough and you've start drinking them) and >2) the loss/change of some hop flavor and aroma. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:05:07 -0500 From: "Ian Watson" <realtor at niagara.com> Subject: No Krausen Hi all I made the following recipe on Sunday: 4.5 lb 2 row Pale Malt 2.25 lb Munich Malt 1 lb 6 row Malt 1 lb Carastan Malt 1 lb Flaked Barley 1oz Roasted Barley 1 lb Dextrose Boiling hops: 1 oz Northern Brewer 2 oz Cascade Flavour hops: 1 oz Cascade 1 oz East Kent Goldings Aroma hops : 1 oz East Kent Golding Ok....I made this up out of my head, and it's my first full grain mash. I did a protein rest at 122 or so. Then, using a gas stove, I heated the mash up to the mid 150's, but it was hard to keep it stable. I eventually got conversion. I cooled it in the bathtub with ice cold Canadian tap water, and pitched yeast using 2 packets of 11 grams hydrated Nottongham yeast. I also shook the heck out of it to aerate the wort. The next day, there was little bubbling from the blow-off tube. It increased to about one bubble per second, but there was no wild krausening action. Today (three days later) it is starting to clear at the top, already!. I am wondering if I mashed at too high a temperature and produced mostly Dextrines. I have read that these are considered "unfermentables", but they do ferment VERY slowly. Any opinions would be appreciated. I was thinking I could add either malt extract or dextrose, to save this batch... Befuddled, Ian Watson St. Catharines, Ontario Canada Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:45:44 -0600 From: "Chuck Dougherty" <jdougherty at wlj.com> Subject: HERMS and such Kevin Mueller asks if there's anyone out there who uses a HERMS system where the HLT temp is set the same as the mash temp. I do. This greatly simplifies the whole operation of controlling the mash temp since all I have to do is set the HLT temp and let 'er rip. This approach also makes it really hard to overshoot your mash set temp due to a stuck valve, inattention, etc. The trick is to have a sufficiently long HERMS coil so that you can do this with acceptable flow rate. I haven't experimented with different coils, but my guess is that most of the HERMS coils I've seen on the web aren't large enough for this approach. My HERMS coil is an old immersion chiller with 50' of 1/2" copper, and running full bore I get an exit temp of 1-2 degrees below my HLT temp. I think you're right Kevin that one might have problems with step mashes, but the most stepping I ever do is from a low sacch temp to a higher one, then to mashout. If I ever did lower-temp rests where I had to cross a "danger" zone, I don't know if this would work or not. Dave Riedel asks if anyone uses a manifold with a HERMS system. I do this too. I find the manifold works better because I don't have grain getting sucked through my pump; that was always a problem with my old false bottom, since it would invariably ride up at some point and let grain seep underneath. I run my recirc at the same rate as I did with the false bottom without problems. My manifold is based on (heck, blatantly copied from) John Palmer's design for a 10 gal. round cooler. Now an observation on brewing technology. We've had some bitterly cold weather in the southern U.S. lately (well, bitterly cold from our point of view), and when I went to start my recirc I found that my March pump was frozen up. (Please don't send cards; the little fella is doing just fine now after thawing out for a while.) I had already doughed in, so what to do? I was surprised to find that it's really not hard at all to brew without the pump, even with my one-tier rig. I did have to do some infusion temp calculations on the fly, which was actually a lot of fun. My HERMS coil even got to see duty once again as an immersion chiller; my fancy, finned-tubing CFC was left to watch from the sidelines. Sometimes a little adversity is just the thing to make brewing an adventure again. Chuck Dougherty Little Rock, Arkansas Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:09:54 -0500 From: Bob Hall <rallenhall at toast.net> Subject: Bare Knuckle Battle Brewing Interesting article in AdAge (via www.bodensatz.com): It is rumoured that Anheuser-Busch is considering the introduction of a stout called "Bare Knuckle" to compete head-to-head with Guinness. Comments from several executives of the company indicate that they consider this 'high-end' market to be critical to their success going forward. Speculation is that marketing the product would downplay the fact that it is a product of Anheuser-Busch, since the brewery is not liked by the target audience beer aficionados. Complete story at http://www.adage.com/news.cms?newsId=36529 Bob Hall Napoleon, OH Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:18:28 -0500 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: saflager s-23 Someone posted yesterday that people aren't happy with the Saflager S-23 lager yeast. Au contraire, mon fraire! I love this yeast and have fermented several different lagers with it, most recently 5 gallons of dunkles and 10 gallons of CAP. It can give some slight fruity esters if you ferment it over 50F, but I generally ferment that strain at 46F and come up with very tasty beers. Not 100% clean, but that's not what I'm looking for either. Goes well with noble hopped lagers. FWIW. - -- Marc Sedam Chapel Hill, NC Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:30:07 -0500 From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu> Subject: Re: Corny keg o-ring replacement Joris Dallaire writes: "I have to replace the o-ring on the gas inlet of some of my cornys. I know my local bar supplies vendor has some, but i wonder if these can be replaced by standard o-rings found at hardwarestores? Thank you." O-rings on ball lock corny kegs are a standard size found anywhere o-rings are sold. They are size 111 which have a nominal size of 7/16" ID, 5/8" OD, and thickness of 3/32". Nominal size means that you won't actually measure these dimensions if you take your calipers to an o-ring. It's analogous to a nominal 2" x 4" stud actually being 1.5" x 3.5" . Dennis Collins and I exchanged a few emails about this. I had trouble with some of the softer o-rings getting chewed up quickly, I think by the balls on my ball-lock kegs. He responds "I know what you mean about the O-rings getting chewed up. I think the soft ones are around a 40 durometer. Standard Nitrile or EPDM is about 60-70 which a lot more durable. Just keep that keg lube handy. " So there you go! Size 111 and ~60 durometer will work nicely. If you have a local homebrew shop, you should purchase o-rings there. If neither your LHBS or local hardware store carries them, you can get them via www.mcmaster.com and they'll come the next day. Todd Snyder Buffalo, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:37:58 -0800 From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com> Subject: Re: No Sparge Lauter Rate William, I'm a dedicated batch sparger, and I actually saw my efficiency go up a few points when I increased the speed of my runoff. I typically empty my cooler in less than 10 minutes for a 5 gal. batch. Of course, how fast you can actually go will be dependent on your equipment. Some systems are more prone to stuck runoffs than others. I use a SS hose braid in the bottom of my mash tun and have found it to be pretty much immune to stuck runoffs. ------------->Denny At 12:31 AM 1/29/03 -0500, you wrote: >Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:39:34 -0500 >From: william.m.menzl at dowcorning.com >Subject: No Sparge Lauter Rate > >Greetings All! >I have done one no-sparge batch of a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone >using the calculations as found in http://www.howtobrew.com and >it worked out great. I got the calculated volume and gravity that >I was expecting. I am looking at shortening my brew day up some and I >am wondering what others are using for their Lauter rate. I normally >use a 0.5 to 1 cup/minute Lauter rate when doing continuous sparge. >Can the rate be increased when using no-sparge vs. continuous >sparging? I have read with interest where some brewers use pumps >to recirculate the wort through the Mash/Lauter Tun and the rates >are a half gallon per minute or more. Does this mean that I can >increase my Lauter rate to a half gallon/minute when using no-sparge? >Any insights are appreciated! > >William Menzl >Midland, Michigan [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian >I apologize if a disclaimer shows below. The corp server may add it. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:26:28 -0600 From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: RE: brew days, HSA debate, and DCL yeasts Steve Alexander writes: > > I like brewing - what's the rush ? Sure, if I could knock > 2hrs off and not > be rushed or make compromises I would, but I don't see that happening. > Thank you, Steve, for presenting an opposing viewpoint to what I perceive as the Brew Day Challenge. So many brewers write about the measures they go through to shorten their brew days. Maybe for some people, that's an issue. Not for me. I am unrepentant slow brewer, I have no desire to join Slow Brewers Anonymous because, as far as I'm concerned, I don't have a problem. Brew day, to me, is brew DAY. I have the luxury of being able to commit an entire day to the process, so I do. Pisses off SWMBO, to be sure, but I like to think things like that just help keep a relationship "fresh". So I tend to be very meticulous (translation: anal-retentive), I check and double check, make notes, if one stage finishes while I'm in the middle of something important (translation:eating), then it waits. The only part where I like to be time-sensitive, is getting the chilled wort into the fermenter and pitched. And none of this multiple-batch stuff, either. One day, one beer. While I can admire the tenacity (translation: stark raving madness) of someone like Mike Dixon, with his professed desire to brew 7-8 beers in a marathon 24 hour session, I have no desire to go down that road. Now, I've sworn to beat myself senseless if I ever found myself using that hackneyed expression of Charlie P, but.... Really, people, you don't rush a glass of beer, you savour it, enjoying all it's nuances. Take the same approach to making that glass of beer. Make that brew day experience last a long, long time. John Misrahi writes: > I have been trying to improve the technical side of my > brewing from batch to batch, and one of the things that keeps > coming to haunt me is oxidation. No matter what I do, almost > all my beers seem to end up developing an oxidized quality > (kind of a stale wet cardboard taste). > I don't want to start another HSA debate. Far too late for that, I'm afraid. Although we could call it a mash-boil oxidation (MBO) debate. John, you know what's coming, you've heard it from me before on MOBnet. IMO you are a perfect candidate for sulfiting experimentation. If your beers are regularly showing staling, it shouldn't take long to determine if the practice is making a difference. For a 5 gallon batch, add 1/4 tsp potassium metabisulfite to the mash water. That's it. If Dave Burley is around, he'll tell you to partially cover your boil, but let's leave that out for now. Do the whole "just change one variable" thing, and see what happens over the next few months. I would be interested in hearing your results. Joseph Gerteis writes: > letter campaign to get them to switch their lager yeast > might just be effective. For those that have tried > them all -- is there one that is a good "general" lager > yeast? > IMO S-189 is a good all-purpose lager yeast. Having said that, it makes little difference to me if it comes out in tiny, underpitching-sized packets. For an 11.5 gram packet, I would pay about $2 US. If I pitch two of them, that's $4, and I'm still underpitching. I can source 500 g bricks for about $50 US including shipping. I split that up into 10 50g packs using my vacuum sealer. So for $5 US, I get a proper pitching rate. Beats the heck out of buying little packs. Beats the heck out of stepping up a liquid yeast to achieve the same population. Yes, Bill, I know I'm going to get phenolics, c'est la vie. ;-) Don't want 10 packs? Get together with some brew buddies and split up a brick. Certainly should be an option for people in brew clubs. Don't have a vacuum sealer? Give your head a shake. Probably the single most useful small kitchen appliance you will ever buy. Well, maybe next to the coffee maker, for those of you with the caffeine dependency. I'm not saying small packs wouldn't be useful to some people. Just that there might be other avenues for a lot of us to take besides a letter writing campaign to jolly olde England. Cheers Brian Lundeen Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:26:01 -0600 From: "Tidmarsh Major" <tidmarsh at bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Kind of Long: Oxidation and Bottle Conditioned Beer On 29 Jan 2003 at 0:13, John Misrahi in Montreal notes that he has problems with oxidation in his beers and asks: > Anything else I can do to reduce this problem? If you're having such serious oxidation in under 2 months, you must be picking up oxygen somewhere along the way. What kind of primary fermenter do you use, and are you using a secondary? If so, what kind? How do you fill your bottles? What kind of bottle filler do you use? Perhaps with some more information about your process, we can give you some suggestions. One practice I might offer to reduce oxygen at bottling, that I stumbled on accidentally, is using PrimeTabs to bottle. Put the tablets into the bottles before adding the beer. When you siphon onto the tablets, the beer will foam. Quickly cap each bottle after filling when the foam fills the headspace. By doing so, you drive the air out of the headspace with the foam, which will settle out, leaving only CO2 in the headspace. Tidmarsh Major Tuscaloosa, Ala. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 11:23:20 -0800 From: Todd Phillips <ophiodon at attbi.com> Subject: Anchor Steam's Christmas Ale Does any one out there in cyber brewland have a recipe for Anchor Steam's Christmas Ale. Please email me or post if you have one. I very much appreciate any thoughts or comments. Thank you ophiodon at attbi.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 15:03:28 -0500 From: Ubu Roi <ubu.roi at verizon.net> Subject: Re: DCL yeast again >Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:29:53 -0800 (PST) >From: "Joseph Gerteis" <joseph540 at elvis.com> >Subject: DCL yeast again >1. They only offer one lager and one ale yeast in the >small packets and that's all they plan to do for the >forseeable future. Nope. In addition to the S23 lager and S04 whitbread there is the T58 (Belgians and Wheats) and the S33 (fast and fruity). See the DCL site under "craft brewing" for more descriptions. http://www.dclyeast.co.uk/DCL_Main/main_brewing/craftbrew_index.htm Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 15:26:52 -0500 From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net> Subject: Replacing keg o-rings In response to my recent post concerning use of hardware store o-rings to repair pin lock kegs, I received the following off-digest query >Hi, can you tell me which size o-rings you purchase for your pin-lock kegs? Here are the sizes in inches and fractions thereof. Connector seal: 5/8 x 7/16 x 3/32 Valve-to-keg seal: 9/16 x 3/8 x 3/32 Poppet valve seal: 5/16 x 3/16 x 1/16 The last item goes on the spring-loaded poppet, which must be carefully pried out of the valve body. To remove the valve assemblies from a keg, I modified a 13/16 deep socket by filing four grooves in the lip to clear the valve pins. Dave in Bel Air, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:01:09 -0800 From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128 at edwardwadsworth.com> Subject: Mash efficiency I am duplicating a recipe from BYO, Navish's Oatmeal Stout. After plugging the ingredients into ProMash my estimated OG is too low. With a stout should I just up the pale malt until I closer to the OG or should I bump it all up? I know that the delicate aspect of brewing stouts is that too much of the dark malts can cause harsh bitter or astringent flavors and we definitely don't want that. The recipe calls for 8 lbs of pale malt and one lb of caramel malt (60L) along with black, chocolate and roasted. And advice for a first time stouter? Parker Dutro P-town "Excuse me doctor, but I think I know a little something about medicine!" -Homer Simpson Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:51:16 -0500 From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Electric brewers and herms In HBD 4157, Kevin Mueller says: >My thought was to control the HLT temp to be the same as the mash, and run >full flow thru it. Great for single temp mashes, but for steps I suppose >you'd have some very long ramp times. Anyone with experience of doing it >like this? Won't work. In order to have heat transfer, there must be a difference in temperature between the source and recipient, and the greater the difference, the faster heat is transferred. Using the proposed scheme, a temperature difference would exist only when the mash had cooled below the HLT temperature. But the difference would at first be very small, so heat transfer would occur so slowly as to be of little use. And unless you had an enormous heat exchanger, the heat loss from the mash vessel would occur faster than you could replace the lost heat, and the mash would never come even close to catching up. Even with an enormous heat exchanger, the mash would have to stabilize at a temperature lower than the HLT in order for heat transfer to continue. Dave in Bel Air, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 15:33:07 -0800 (PST) From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: HERMS - anyone using a manifold? Dave Riedel asked: "I too have been considering the HERMS idea, or perhaps just a recirculating system to save brew-day time by having clear wort ready for runoff at the end of the mash. My question is: How do these pump systems work for a manifold-style mash tun? I don't ever open the ball-valve fully on my mash tun... don't needto for recirc, don't want to for runoff. Does a pumped system require a false-bottom set-up?" Dave, I have been HERMSing with a rectangular cooler tun for about a year now, never had a problem. In fact, I believe I that this rig flows better than a perforated-type false bottom. Made the manifod from 1/2" copper pipe with four longitudinal tubes connected with ells and tees (at both ends) and a single outlet. I throttle the outlet of the pump when I start recirculating, then gradually open the MT ball valve all the way. Once recirculation has started, all flow rate adjustments are made at the pump outlet. Temperature control is via solenoid valves connected to a PID controller with TC in the mash. Hope that helps, Kent Fletcher brewing in So Cal Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 18:48:11 -0600 From: "Mike Brennan" <brewdude at tampabay.rr.com> Subject: 3068 Yeast I have to disagree that fermenting 3068 needs to be at the lower end as I believe it was originally said that higher temps produces unacceptable banana esters. I brew all grain in Florida (typically 60% wheat) and find that weizen beers are one of the brews I can brew year round, without worry of high fermentation temp. I do wrap wet towels around my fermenter in summer, but I guarantee it is much higher than 64 degrees. I have used 3068 almost exclusively for German Weizens about 10 years. I think it is a great weizen yeast. If anything my weizens may be over clovey, but never too much banana. I think the jury is still out on this one. Anyone else care to add a comment? Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:14:34 -0800 (PST) From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Home Depot Utility Pump for RIMS...is it feasible? Tony Rucci asked: "Gentlemen, I'm looking for y'all's opinion regarding a utility pump that I am considering picking up to complete my RIMS project. It a 1/12 HP Cyclone Utility pump that they sell at Home Depot. The link is below and I'd appreciate any input. From what I can see, it looks like it would serve appropriately as long as it would keep the wort clean in the transfer. Just wondering if would even be worth considering. The one I'm looking at is the $79 one from Flotec Inc., SKU #932442." Tony, in a word, no. That pump is for pumpin water at environmental temps only. From Flotec literature: "Pump is designed to pump at water temperatures between 32 to 77 deg F (0 to 25 deg C) only. Pump water only with this pump!" March and Little Giant both make magnetice drive pumps that are well suited for RIMS/HERMS duty (my Little Giant 3-MD-MT-HC is good to 200 F). March are available through several HB on-line suppliers (and McMaster-Carr), and Little Giant through Grainger. Having already researched this, I can tell you that the More Beer guys are hard to beat as far as pricing, they're at or below the industrial catalog houses' book prices. Hope that helps, Kent Fletcher brewing in So Cal Return to table of contents
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