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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  The Jethro Gump Report-Affirmative Action ("Rob Moline")
  same flavor (Darrell.Leavitt)
  brewing (Dean Johnston)
  Homebrewing in Alabama ("Chris Eidson")
  Re: Brewing in Alabama (Bruce Carpenter)
  A little more on BU:GU Ratio (Bill Tobler)
  Re: brewery efficiency (was: energy sources?) ("Jonathan Royce")
  Re: Bill Wible (Brew By You Info)
  RE: Toasted Oat Maple Porter results ("Jonathan Royce")
  Lager Temps,..alc content ? (darrell.leavitt)
  Re:Re: Vienna Viennas (blutick)
  World Cup Comp ("Dave Sapsis")
  Re: Same background taste in all my beers (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Thomas Hardy: The Sequel, and DAMM (Brian Lundeen)
  RE: Thomas Hardy Returns!!! (Pat Babcock)
  Tuppers Hop Pocket Ale Clone recipe? ("trickard")
  MCAB V Wheat Beer Recipe ("Joseph Gustis")
  Re: George's $3.50 hopback and some commercial stuff (George de Piro)


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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:16:13 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report-Affirmative Action

			The Jethro Gump Report-Affirmative Action

     Some whine about the unfairness of brewers with better equipment and
greater experience competing with those possessing less. What a waste of
bandwidth.
	The clear evidence to me is that brewers work with the system they have,
and make changes to it, and/or the procedures they employ to wring the best
possible product out of the damn thing. Often that process takes years...and
incrementally added money for upgrades to equipment....largely employed as
knowledge of the benefits of such become apparent.
     Certainly a crappy brewer, whether he has 60 years experience, or 6
months...will make crappy beer even on the best system. Experience seems to
be the best indicator of success, though not exclusive. And isn't that how
it is in every pursuit?

     Perhaps we should, in the interests of "Brewing Affirmative Action,"
give beers brewed by first-time brewers a 20 point advantage? Now their 23
pointer becomes a 43 pointer, surely this is more politically correct?
     After all, why should someone that spends decades perfecting their
knowledge-base, their equipment...their craft...dare compete in the same
'open to all comers' contests such as these homebrew competitions? "My old
rubbish bin, extract kit and 4 pounds of table sugar obviously entitle me to
just as much self-esteem as anyone!"

     But seriously, as for pro's entering contests for homebrewing...if I
ever make beer  at  home again, and decide to enter it into such a comp, I
would fully expect it to be a valid entry. If George dePiro brewed a batch  at 
home, or August Busch.....if it is brewed  at  home, it is homebrew.

     You have to excuse me now...I am busy setting up the Small Brewers
Relief Act, whereby Congress will make it illegal for my brewery to compete
with the likes of Victory Brewing Company. I tasted their Stout last night
for the first time, and it just ain't fair!

Jethro Gump

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 07:32:34 -0500
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: same flavor

Gil;
  I brew all-grain, for 6 years now,...and a few years back a friend used
to say ' I can tell that this is your beer'...ie the flavor that cut across
all styles that I made (and I brew once a week)...this annoyed me , because
I thought that the beers should not all have the same 'background'
flavor....so I alterred everything,..mash schedules, minerals in the water,
base malt used, and every technique ...and voila...they are all different
now,...except that styles are much the same.

 I suggest that you look at varying your techniques, the malts used,
re-using yeast,..or pitching larger starters, watching the fermentation
temperature better, 1 versus 2 step infusions, trying different
malts....then you may see what it is...

When your partner says "brewed in basement" I hope that she does not mean
the funky sort of flavor that can come, that some call "horsey"...for all
of them...some scotch ales and perhaps some unique belgians (geuze) might
be good with that, but others c ould suffer, I'd bet...

Forgive me if she merely means that it was brewed in your brewery...which
is in the basement...When I think of basement I think of cold, moldy,
etc...and that I know is not how all basements are...

Good luck and please report back to the HBD list..

Have others had similar 'background' flavors?...

Happy Brewing!
 ..Darrell


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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:23:28 -0500 (EST)
From: bioeo at webtv.net (Dean Johnston)
Subject: brewing

Can I brew a cut peach with a ale?



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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 13:47:27 +0000
From: "Chris Eidson" <eidsonc at hotmail.com>
Subject: Homebrewing in Alabama

James--


I don't know of any in Montgomery, but AlaBrew in Birmingham is a great shop 
(www.alabrew.com).  I am sure Kim (the owner) has patrons from the 
Montgomery area and might be able to help get you together.  Hope this 
helps.

Chris Eidson
Birmingham, AL







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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:42:04 -0600
From: Bruce Carpenter <bcarpenter at macunlimited.net>
Subject: Re: Brewing in Alabama


James writes:

> I am searching for the name, address and phone number
> of any homebrew shops in Alabama.  The beertown
> homebrew shop site is still down.  Are there any
> homebrewers from Montgomery out there.  We should
> start a homebrew club here and maybe even try to get
> homebrewing legalized in Alabama.

James,

Try http://www.alabrew.com in Birmingham. The owner Kim Thomson is very 
friendly and willing to share his extensive knowledge of the hobby.

ALABREW
8916A Parkway East
Birmingham, AL 35206
205-833-1716

Unless I have been breaking the law these past few years, it is my 
understanding that homebrewing is legal in Alabama. Perhaps Kim could 
shed some light on the exact wording of the law here.

Bruce



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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:56:16 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: A little more on BU:GU Ratio

A little more on the BU:GU ratio.  I meant to send this the other day, but
the link was lost, but found again.  Here is a great chart that gives you an
idea of the relationship of the bitterness and original gravity of the brew
you are planning.  

A Thanks to Brewingsupplies.com  Not affiliated in any way, or even a
customer.  

http://www.brewsupplies.com/hops-gravity.htm

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian





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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:15:42 -0500
From: "Jonathan Royce" <jtroyce at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: brewery efficiency (was: energy sources?)

Kent Fletcher wrote:
"Homebrewing with combustion burners is VERY inefficient in terms of energy
usage,
electic brewing is probably more efficient (less lost heat)."

I guess it depends on from what point and to what point you measure
efficiency.

Clearly if you divide the heat transferred to the fluid and divide by the
input to the heating element, electricity has the advantage.

However, electricity is produced by first burning fossil fuels, and today's
plants are (at best) 40% efficient. So if you figure that your electric
element is already operating at a 60% disadvantage compared to a propane or
natural gas burner, there would have to be a lot of heat loss from the
burner before electricity becomes more efficient.

The same argument applies to all of the appliances in your house: ranges,
dryers, water heaters, heating systems. Typically, a well designed
combustion system can always outperform electricity in terms of overall
efficiency and therefore in operating costs as well.

Just my $.02.
 -Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com




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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:21:33 -0500
From: Brew By You Info <info at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Bill Wible

>Bill Wible has shown himself to be a bigot (the anti-muslim
>thread), an idiot (the dry yeast is crap thread), and now an insecure
>bad loser (need I mention which thread?).

Nice to see you have absolutely nothing better to do with your life
than keep track of me and my posts on HBD.  Seriously, get a life!
Go meet some girls.

I was letting all this stuff die, but how can I not respond to this?!

The Muslim stuff was ages ago, and you guys distorted that.  It
wasn't Protestants or Catholics who blew up the WTC, was it? I
mentioned Muslims and all of a sudden, I'm Archie Bunker.
I still don't understand all your problems over this thread.

Dry yeast is a joke.  Let's not start that again.  If you're
brewing with it, you're the idiot - not me.

And I don't think complaining about unfair competition makes
me a bad loser.  I think pro brewers who are slumming in BJCP
comps against amateur brewers are poor winners.

Go ahead and write some more bad stuff about me.  You're entitled
to your opinion as much as I'm entitled to mine.

Bill




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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:30:20 -0500
From: "Jonathan Royce" <jtroyce at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Toasted Oat Maple Porter results

Jake Isaacs wrote about his brewing of a Toasted Oat Maple Porter and
I wanted to offer one piece of advice regarding the use of maple syrup for
priming (in case he or anyone else is considering that).

Last year I made a maple brown ale and primed with maple syrup. At first, I
had
intended on boiling the maple syrup in order to ensure sterility, but at the
last minute
I recalled that in my conversation with the syrup maker he had stated that
the syrup
is bottled in a sterile form to ensure that it wouldn't spoil.

That recalled, I proceeded to pour the room temperature syrup into the
bottling bucket and then siphon the beer on top. Bottled as normal.

What I had not considered was that the cold syrup was much more viscous than
the
beer and thus never mixed properly, leaving the bottom of the bottling
bucket mostly
syrup and the top mostly beer. Of course, I realized all of this too late.
Upon my return
from a two week business trip, I opened my beer closet to find that two
bottle
grenades had detonated. Six more bottles erupted upon opening, with each one
ejecting
at least half of the contents. At least a case of bottles had nearly no
carbonation
whatsoever.

Anyway, the moral to the story is that if you want to prime with maple
sugar, make sure
to heat it up first and/or mix well.

HTH,
Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com




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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:33:38 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Lager Temps,..alc content ?

I am devising a new way to crash cool lagers (cold basement door) and now 
have a remote thermometer taking readings.,...I suppose that there must be 
a predictable relationship between freezing temps and the alcohol content 
of the brew.  Does anyone know of a chart that describes this 
relationship, or how one can determine this?

 ..Darrell




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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:13:05 -0600
From: blutick at juno.com
Subject: Re:Re: Vienna Viennas

Brian Lundeen asked about viennas made with only vienna malt:

>So a question for the experienced, award winning Vienna brewers
>(whether you use a $4K system or not): does such a simple malt bill
really
>produce good results for the style?

Qualifications: My vienna placed first in German Amber Lager at the 2002
NHC and at 2002 Dixie Cup. My vienna prior to that one placed second at
2001 Bluebonnet and first at 2001 Crescent City. A 7 gallon enamel pot,
an insulated Gateway computer box, two converted 1/2 barrel kegs, an old
sleeping bag, and a 10 gallon Gott cooler make up the heart of my
brewing, uh, system. 

If I wanted to spend $4,000 on equipment for this hobby, I'd spend it on
a big walk-in cooler.

I brewed a vienna lager using 100% Ireks vienna malt back in April 1999.
My notes on that beer say that it was an OK beer, rather bland, thin malt
flavor, OG 1.049, FG 1.015. I don't believe that I ever entered that beer
in any competitions and it certainly never won any awards.

I currently have a vienna lager in the fermenter. It is 59% light munich
malt, 32% pils malt,  and 4.5% each aromatic and caramunich III malt. I
like this grain bill and don't see a need to tweak it much in the future.

And I agree that every forum needs some characters. We are truly
fortunate in that respect.

Jim Layton
Howe, TX


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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 09:05:40 -0800
From: "Dave Sapsis" <dsapsis at earthlink.net>
Subject: World Cup Comp

Spring is coming, must mean sumpn.
Oh yeah. Wold Cup of Beer... Numero Nueve!
As usual, good beer, striving for good judging, and fine prizes.
California's  MCAB Qualifier.
http://www.bayareamashers.org/worldcup/default.htm

Scroll down for all entry and judge info your heart desires.
- --dave sapsis
organizer emeritus


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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 13:00:59 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Same background taste in all my beers

  "Gilbert Milone II" <gilbertmilone at hotmail.com> asks

>  Do other homebrewers experience the same background flavors no matter what
>  type of beer they brew? I brew all grain, and I've notices that whether
>it's
>a wheat beer, scottish ale, or stout, they all have the same background
>flavor.According to my girlfriend it says "Hey I made this in my basement".
>  It's not an off flavor really, just a similar flavor with all my beers.
>  Maybe it's my water?
>  Just wondering if anyone has the same experience.

Gil, you've got what is called a "house character."  Since it's in 
all of your beers irrespective of style, I don't think it's a good 
thing.  My suspicion is that it is either a light infection or 
something phenolic in nature, perhaps from chlorine in your water or 
your sanitizing procedure.  Several friends got this kind of off 
flavor in their first brews and we never really did isolate it.  They 
each only brewed two or three batches before they moved on to other 
things for one reason or another.  I've also tasted it in others' 
beers.  But, of course, I don't know what your beer tastes like.

I know you say it's not really an off flavor, but it's hard to judge 
our own beer.  You've just presented a good case for being part of a 
local homebrew club.  You didn't say where you are in your post 
(always a good idea - as Bob Barrett said in yesterday's HBD, another 
brewer might be closer than you think).  You need another person's 
first hand evaluation.  If you don't have a club nearby, consider 
entering a competition.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:43:09 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Thomas Hardy: The Sequel, and DAMM

Mark Tumarkin writes: 

News has it that Thomas Hardy is being resurrected! George Saxon, of Phoenix

Imports, just announced that they have purchased the rights to Thomas Hardy 
Ale (along with Royal Oak & T. H. Country Bitter) and have reached an 
agreement with O'Hanlons Brewery of Devon to brew them

To which I say:

Will it (can it) possibly be as good? I mean, have you ever tasted Labatt
brewed Guinness? Is Samiclaus the beer it once was (and to my club mate
Ralph, I'm not referring to its ability to strip paint)?

Are we just setting ourselves up to be disappointed? Time will tell, I
guess... Let's just hope their brewing equipment is expensive enough to brew
a beer of this quality. ;-)

As for the Drunks Against Mad Mothers, they really should change their name.
As it stands, their acronym could cause people to confuse them with another
worthwhile organization...

Mad Mothers Against Dyslexia.

Cheers
Brian



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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:51:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: RE: Thomas Hardy Returns!!!

Greetings, beerlings! Take me to your lager...

The press release to which Mark refers in HBD 4172 Saturday can
be read at http://www.mythbirdbeer.com/whatsnew.html

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:28:09 -0500
From: "trickard" <trickard at psouth.net>
Subject: Tuppers Hop Pocket Ale Clone recipe?

So.. we all know about Old Dominions "Tuppers Hop Pocket ale.".

Has anyone worked up an accurate All Grain "Clone recipe" that they want to
share?

the Recipe in American Clone brewed just doesn't cut it.

Regards, Talbot, Southern Maine




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Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 07:55:39 -0600
From: "Joseph Gustis" <JGUSTIS at satx.rr.com>
Subject: MCAB V Wheat Beer Recipe

As requested, here's the recipe I used to win 1st place in the Wheat beer
category.  It was made with porcelain pots and plastic buckets.  No big rigs
here at the Schertzer brewery.

Schertzer Weisse
Bavarian Weizen

Recipe for 5 US gallons

7 lbs. Moravian Wheat
4 lbs. Moravian Pils
2 oz. Melanoidin Malt
2 oz. Flaked Barley
1.5 oz Tettnanger (German), pellets, 3.6%  at  60

Yeast Blend (1.5 gal. starter):
Wyeast 3638 Bavarian Wheat Yeast
White Labs WLP380 Hefeweizen IV

Mash in  at  95F for 20 min.
Direct heat to 111F for 20 min.
Infuse to 152F for 60 min.
Direct heat to 170 for 10 min.

Lauter and sparge, collecting 6 gal.  at  1.055.
2 hour boil, adding water to make up for boil-off.
Ferment  at  temp controlled 67F. for 1.5 weeks.
Rack to secondary for 2 weeks at room temp (~70F).
Bottle 5 gal w/1 cup corn sugar.

OG 1.055
FG 1.015

The melanoidin malt was used to add a German taste without a decoction.
The flaked barley was used to try to improve head retention.
The two yeasts were built up in separate starter jugs and blended when pitched.
Used mix of RO and boiled tap water.  Schertz tap water is extremely hard.

This is a fairly straight forward Weizen beer recipe.  I actually brewed 6
batches and selected the best of them to send to the MCAB.  Here's a quick
synopsis of those 6 batches:

#1 Above mash schedule, only using WLP380 yeast:
 - Rather good.  Has all the Weizen characteristics. A bit off. 2nd choice.
#2 Above mash schedule, only using W3638 yeast:
 - Seemed skunked at first.  Improved after sitting in the glass.
#3 Above recipe. Sent to MCAB.
 - Better than number 1.  Still a bit off - maybe ferment a few degrees lower?
#4 Same ingredients with single step infusion  at  152F and W3638 yeast.
 - Drinkable, but not much character.  Low level of weizen characteristics.
#5 Same ingredients with single step infusion  at  152F and WLP380 yeast.
 - Low level of weizen characteristics, but a nice lingering weizen aftertaste.
#6 Same ingredients with single step infusion and blend of both yeasts.
 - Very drinkable, but a bit on the thin side.

Joe Gustis
Schertz, TX




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Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 17:20:02 -0500
From: George de Piro <george at EvansAle.com>
Subject: Re: George's $3.50 hopback and some commercial stuff

Hi all,

On 2/14/03 12:53 PM, "Strom C. Thacker" <sthacker at bu.edu> wrote:

> I love the idea of a cheapo hopback (and have been looking for one
> for a while), but I have one question for George.  How does your
> nylon sack on a pole work differently from just adding hops loose at
> knockout?  If you hold them down near the wort exit, they will spend
> the same time in the near-boiling wort as the would if there were
> loose in the wort, no?  Or do you only leave them in for a short time?

I guess I wasn't clear enough about this:

Almost all commercial breweries (and many homebrewers) utilize a whirlpool
rest to remove hot break and hop debris from the wort.  At home and at the
brewpub the procedure is the same:  stir the wort for a minute or so (until
it is all moving at a few rpm), then stop stirring and allow it to settle
for 10-30 minutes (the more shallow your kettle, the less time it will take
for the stuff to settle to the bottom center).

The wort is still piping hot during this rest, driving off the volatile hop
oils that are essential to aroma.  By putting the bag o' hops in at the end
of this rest, they are not being over-steeped like the last kettle addition.
Furthermore, the bag's position near the kettle outlet ensures that the wort
will pass close to the hops on its way out of the kettle, where it is cooled
about 2 seconds later.
- ---------------------
Mark asks for more detail about the system I brew on commercially.  It's
really not terribly exciting, and isn't much different from a homebrew
system.  It is bigger, though.

It is a two vessel system:  combination mash/lauter tun and
kettle/whirlpool.  This configuration is typical of American brewpub
systems.  Liquids are moved by means of a centrifical pump.  I cannot do
decoction mashes on this system because there is no separate mash tun, so
moving solids isn't a concern.

The system gets its heat from low pressure steam, which yields barley
acceptable results.  The temperature difference between boiling wort and 12
psi steam is not very large, and the surface area of the steam jackets is
not entirely adequate, so good boils are causes for celebration.

The kettle and 4 of the 5 fermentors have nominal capacities of 10 bbl (310
gallons, 11.73 Hl, 20 American kegs), but I routinely push the limit and put
about 12 bbl in the fermentors.  There is 60 bbl of fermentation capacity
and 7 serving tanks.  Beer is fermented and matured in the conical
fermentation tanks.  Most styles are ready to serve in three weeks.

We have a plate and frame filter, but I hardly ever use it.  I really don't
like the way filtration strips body and flavor from beer, so I fine most
beers with gelatin.  It almost always works, but sometimes a batch will be
slightly hazy.  Our customers don't seem to care, but I know that some
markets would not tolerate such atrocities.

The system was built by the now defunct New World Brewing Systems.  In fact,
it is the last system they ever built, and after working with it one can
understand why.  I started to write a list of the system's inadequacies, but
I decided that they are not likely to be of interest to most HBD readers.

There is a little more info at our website (address in sig line below).  I
hope to have a new site up in a month, complete with a virtual tour.  Stay
tuned...
- ------------------
Somebody (sorry, I didn't write your name down) read my post about the
advantages of using a separate mash tun, asking why brewers would want to do
12 batches a day.  They mentioned that they believed the fermentation cellar
to be the bottleneck.

At a brewpub, the fermentation and aging of the beer is certainly the
bottleneck, and I don't know any pub brewer that routinely brews more than
one batch per day.  Many larger breweries have enough fermentation capacity
to run 10-12 batches per day, 7 days per week.

You don't need (or even want) a separate fermentor for each batch, just each
type of beer (and sometimes not even then...think "lite beer").  An entire
day (or two days) worth or wort can go into one vessel.  There are brewpubs
that are designed this way:  10 bbl kettle but 20 bbl fermentors.  The idea
behind this at a brewpub is that the brewer can experiment with a half
batch, but this is really bogus and just makes extra labor (two brews to
fill a tank).

The reason I say that idea is bogus is that unless you are selling beer
really slowly, you cannot afford to be outrageously experimental with any
batch.  If you are doing something so off the wall that you are unsure of
what the result will be, a much smaller pilot system is more useful than a
50% size batch that tied up an entire vessel for 3 weeks!

Wow, that was long.  I hope somebody found it interesting.

George de Piro
Head Brewer, C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
19 Quackenbush Square
Albany, NY, USA 12207
(518)447-9000
www.EvansAle.com

Brewers of Kick-Ass Brown:  Twice declared the Best American Brown Ale in
the USA at the Great American Beer Festival (2000 & 2002)!



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