HOMEBREW Digest #4181 Wed 26 February 2003

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  Regarding Passivation of Stainless Steel (John Palmer)
  old grain ("Steve Alexander")
  re: Newbie needs help ("Steve Alexander")
  re: liquid quick disconnects ("Steve Alexander")
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  slants ("greg man")
  Re: Lagering in Corny Kegs ("Braam Greyling")
  Re:  liquid quick disconnects (Bill Tobler)
  No carbonation in first batch of HB (Tom Okerlund)
  Re:The Bill Wible problem demands immediate action (Bill Wible)
  Quick Disconnects (FRASERJ)
  Re: RIMs Design (FRASERJ)
  party pig (Darrell.Leavitt)
  re QDs (David Passaretti)
  Re: Guinness Bottles (Jonathan ROyce)
  Re: Pressure ("Mike Dixon")
  Re: Newbie needs help--Spigots ("Pete Calinski")
  Re: Newbie Needs Help (Michael Hartsock)
  Re: Guiness Bottles (Michael Hartsock)
  Passivation of Stainless ("Reddy, Pat")
  Re: agar plates (Michael Hartsock)
  Re: Pressure (Michael Hartsock)
  Re: liquid quick disconnects (hollen)
  Rochefort 8 Cloning contest ("Herman Holtrop")
  RE: hop removal and DIMS (Brian Lundeen)
  Re: Lager (Jeff Renner)
  RE: liquid quick disconnects (Steven L Gardner)
  Re: Lagering in Corny Kegs (Jeff Renner)
  RE: RIMs Design (Steven L Gardner)
  Re: electric vs. lp ("Drew Avis")
  RE: RIMs Design (Mark Alfaro)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 21:32:08 -0800 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com> Subject: Regarding Passivation of Stainless Steel I have noticed several posts on passivation of stainless steel this past week, some containing good information and some containing bad. Sorry I haven't responded sooner but I have a list of feeble excuses. Here are a few main points to remember: * Stainless steel is an alloy of iron, chromium, and nickel. It is the chromium oxides which provide the resistance to corrosion. * You Do Not Need Nitric Acid to Passivate Stainless Steel. * Clean stainless steel will passivate itself spontaneously from the air. (Years ago I told Dion it would take a couple weeks. I was wrong.) But it must be CLEAN, i.e., no dirt, no oil, no heat tint, no foreign metals, no free iron from tooling. * Free iron from tooling, grinding, etc. is not passive. Steel wool is a prime example. If you use steel wool to clean/buff stainless steel, you are depositing iron on the surface which will promptly rust and provide a breach in the passivity of the rest of the stainless steel for further corrosion. * Heat tint from welding or cutting or grinding will cause non-passive oxides to form. These oxides are not dissolved by Nitric Acid passivation. They require stronger acid pickling solutions (nitric/hydrofluoric mix - may be fatal if mis-used) or preferably mechanical removal. I always recommend a scotch-brite scrubby and stainless steel cookware cleanser (oxalic acid based). It works very well. * Nitric acid (hot) passivation is the industry standard because it provides the best passivation with the least work. Nitric acid dissolves any free iron on the surface of the stainless, leaving behind a predominantly chromium-nickel surface. ie. there is no iron on the surface to potentially rust. Nitric acid also is an oxidizing acid, and oxidizes the chromium during the immersion process. The parts emerge passivated. * Citric acid is also useful for removing surface iron. It is not as effective as nitric however. Of course it is much safer too. Citric does not oxidize the chromium like nitric. The parts must be well-rinsed to insure complete spontaneous passivation in air afterwards. * Most acids are non-passivating, in fact, I only know of these two that enhance passivation to any degree. Most acids that have any effect at all are corrosive, like HCl, Sulfuric, Sulfamic, Phosphoric (not too bad), Oxalic. Phosphoric and Oxalic can be useful for cleaning because they will dissolve many surface contaminant metals and rinse cleanly, allowing the steel to passivate itself. HCl can also be used to clean, but any residual chlorides will promote rusting and prevent passivation. HCl is like sticking your hand in the fire to burn off a wart. The take-home-message: Clean the stainless using a non-metallic scrubby and stainless steel cookware cleanser to remove heat tint, tooling scratches, etc. Use Straight-A, PBW or dishwashing detergent to remove any oils or dirt and rinse thoroughly. Your stainless steel will then be as passive as it needs to be for brewing. Any questions? John John Palmer john at howtobrew.com www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:53:16 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: old grain Ben Hanson asks ... >Has >anybody used some old grains mixed into a recipe and been happy with the >results? I bought LOTS of specialty grains at about a quarter a bag >when the local homebrew shop decided to close its doors, and still have >some----about three years later. I don't want to keep it any longer, >but would use it anyway if I got enough positive reinforcement.... Ben - I have used pale base malts 2+ years after purchase. If kept dry I don't think you'll experience any off-flavor problems. The trouble is that specialty malts especially have best flavor just a few months after production. Roast gets a little softer in flavor and crystal/caramel just loses all its positive aroma character. Baking spec.malts in the oven (300F) for an hour seems to revive the flavor/aroma. I haven't done side-by-sides to compare the beer flavor, but I suspect baking helps. I've had 3 and 4 sacks of base malt around forever time but I *try* to get only the spec.malts that I'll use in the next few month. They just don't store well. Hmmm - come to think of it I've a pound of Special-B that's approaching ancient and some German Crystal that's 1+yo. Buying specialty malts in bulk isn't a great idea IMO. Won't ruin your beer, but the aroma properties fade. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:33:55 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: Newbie needs help "A M" writes ...., >I look forward to any feedback. ... >I will be brewing my third beer ever in a week or so but I have a >question about trub and hops, especially pellets. It seems to be an >incredible pain in the butt trying to strain out the hop particles and trub >from the wert boil when transferring to primary fermenter -- how important >is it to remove this crap from the wert before the addition of yeast? I'm >thinking about just fermenting with the dissolved hop pellets and not >worrying about it. Here's some feedback: 1/ Brew more - it's the only way to learn. 2/ Try leaving the hops particulate in and you tell us what YOU think. It won't ruin your beer and it's a good opportunity to experiment and see for yourself. *Generally* it's accepted that trub (not so much hops) isn't flavor positive, but that's a subtle impact mostly apparent in milds and commercial pilsners. In an IPA you'd probably never taste the diff. Overhandling the wort is flavor negative too. An alternative is to rack the ale to another fermenter after 24-72 hours (but before the fermentation finishes) and get rid of the trub then. >Regarding spigots [...] >they both leak, in the time I took me to bottle fill 5 gallons worth of >beer I lost probably 2 pints to leakage. Is this typical? Not typical, but bottling is always a topnotch mess. 3/ As soon as you're convinced that you'll continue brewing for a few years and like the hobby, then look for a spare fridge, a CO2 cylinder & regulator and corny(soda pop, cornelius keg) and some fittings. You'll never regret the choice to keg rather than bottle, and if you ever give up the hobby there are a lot of other HBers who will gladly buy your kegging hardware. 4/ Size matters .... I know you won't believe this as a newbie, but very soon you'll want to keep 3 or 4 different beers on tap and you'll want to brew in 10gal batches or more. Don't go too small when you go all-grain. Look into mash tuns, boilers w/ 15gal capacity and into fermenters & kegs that will handle a good fraction of that. Buy a 10lb CO2 cylinder minimum, unless you enjoy trips to the refiill shop. 5/ If you're married you'd better start now negotiating with the SO for the lagering fridge and the serving freezer w/ regulator you'll soon want. Read the "beer bullets" thread a few month back. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 00:34:24 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: liquid quick disconnects Marc Sedam writes ... >I tried to find liquid quick disconnects ... but ... but didn't look ? Marc, Marc, Marc .... it bears regular repetition - US Plastic Corp catalog should be required reading for HBers. Quality place, super quick order fulfillment, nice business attitude. This biz has a bit of an overt Christian corporate culture, yet they happily fill orders even from heathens like me (they're no St.Pat's}! They don't seem to mind small orders. I can't imagine a more customer friendly biz. QD's, tubing, clamps, fermenters, plastic conicals & stands, buckets, plastic lab gear, pumps, fittings, valves - great place IMO. They mark the food-grade/FDA bits in their catalog and also list operating temps for tubing & fittings etc. Every brewer should have their hardcopy catalog. No affiliation 'cept as a customer - yada. http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/default.asp For Quick disconnects check out the high-flow coupling bodies & inserts. You can select between "shutoff" (closed on disconnect) and Straight-thru (normally open) types on a per-connector basis. Also between 160F Polypropylene and 280F Polysulfone. Also between barb and threaded pipe on the non-QD end. http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&categ ory%5Fname=Quick+Disconnect+Couplings+and+Inserts&Page=1 Still love my HFC quick-disconnects after 2+ years. -Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 00:12:13 -0600 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: The Jethro Gump Report The Jethro Gump Report >From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu> >Subject: The Bill Wible problem demands immediate action <SNIP> >If he isn't stopped then we'll just end up with another Jethro >Gump on our hands. Hey, Alan, don't blame me! When I sold him the thermometers and the turkey fryers, he said he was going to 'fry turkeys!' But, I never sold him an aluminium hop back!!! He had to have gotten that from North Korea! Jethro Gump "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.456 / Virus Database: 256 - Release Date: 2/18/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 01:13:54 -0500 From: "greg man" <dropthebeer at hotmail.com> Subject: slants OK I just ordered from brewers resource an talked with the new owner for about 20 minutes. He mentioned that almost all the inventory will be transferred to his other shop an there still working out the cart problems on the site so you have to call to place an order. However something he said disturbed me. Let me just say before I start this post that I am not affiliated in any way but just genuinely concerned. The owner mentioned to me that one of the things he might get rid of is the BREWTEK slants they sell. I pleaded with him not too as they are some of my favorite strains. He then explained that most people are not willing to go through the work of making starters from slants, an also that people like me who buy them, only buy one slant an then bank it on my own dish thus never needing to buy it again. These two things make the slants unprofitable. I have to say while I appreciated his honesty this frightened me a little, because these wonderful strains might disappear. He then went on to say that he was thinking of keeping the more exotic strains and getting rid of the ones that have the same profiles as some wyeast an white lab strains. I mentioned that this was a great idea an I hope this is the course of action he takes. I wanted to post a request to the brewers here to please buy some of these slants an help keep them alive. I can think of a couple of reasons why this would be good for all you brewers out there. #1 there cheep each slant costs 4.50 a pop. #2 If you buy one you can make about 4 starters from one slant. #3 they usually keep longer; you can use a slant for up to 6 months it is commonly believed to be the best yeast storage method. #4 You have to make starters for most liquid yeast anyway????? #5 some of these strains are obscure like cl 380 sasion which boasts a spiciness like apple pie spices. Or the cl 110 british micro that's my favorite for bitters an milds with a very complex woody, sweet, estery balance. #6 For those of you who enter competitions to win (pay attention bill) the judges may notice something different that's a little out of the ordinary and you may do better. Some judges can taste a beer an go "that's wyeast 1335 or nottingham" If you can get there attention you may place better. # 7 I would hate to think that these two monster yeast company's (though I love them both) would end up bringing to extinction a little business competition because we the home brewers have become lazy. That's it I've spouted off enough please help to keep the strains alive buy using them in order to help make them a little more "profitable". I'll bet you will find one there you like for what ever you brew. once again I am not advertising for anyone just trying to keep our chooses open to as may products as possible...............though I know I will undoubtedly be slammed for something like it's my fault for having a bank in the first place!!!!! Anyway thank you for the band with..................gregman Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 08:48:49 +0200 From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com> Subject: Re: Lagering in Corny Kegs Stefan asks: "I am currently fermenting my first lager and have a question about lagering in 5 gallon cornies. After I complete the diacytel rest and lower the temperature down, can I rack into a keg and lager in the keg that I intend to serve from? I am worried about autolysis of the yeast cells while the lager is conditioning at 35deg (approx. 6- 8weeks). Does anyone have any comments on lagering in the serving keg with respect to autolysis? " I do this almost always when I brew a lager or pils. Only difference is that I use the 50litres kegs which is +-double the size of a corny. When you have lagered it for two weeks or so, draw a few pints. You will see that it is very cloudy. The yeast that dropped to the bottom is coming out first. I usually drink the stuff and start drinking the beer from two weeks on. It usually peaks at about 4-5 weeks and then it is nice and clear also. To sum up, if you are willing to live with a bit of cloudiness in your first couple of beers, this is no problem and less work. If you remove the beer from the secondary into a new keg, you will have clearer beer. To me this is no worry. Just my 2 cents.... Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 00:51:03 -0600 From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: liquid quick disconnects Mark Sedam was asking for a source of QD's. Ask, and ye shall receive. Colder makes some really great QD's. Here are some links to their products. http://www.colder.com/cpcstore/Category.cfm?&DID=1&CATID=13 http://www.colder.com/overview_high_capacity_couplings.cfm US Plastics carries the white Polysulfone couplings. Good from -40 F to 280 F. They even have a UV resistant one if you brew in the sun. http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/default.asp Have fun!! Bill Tobler Lake Jackson, TX (1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 22:57:34 -0800 From: Tom Okerlund <tfo at mindsync.com> Subject: No carbonation in first batch of HB Thanks to all who helped me with advice and encouragement for my problem of lack of carbonation in my first brew. It turns out that it probably was just a lack of patience on my part and also storing it at a warmer temperature I'm sure helped, too. One other thing that someone suggested was to stir-up the yeast a little on the bottom of the bottles; which I did, too, right before I moved them to a warmer room. Well, the goal is the end result. I chilled a couple of bottles, popped them Sat night and I was really happy with what I had brewed. It was a Brown Ale and I didn't have to choke it down and grit my teeth and say " Whew, it's good 'cause I made it". No, I said, "Wow, that's really good *and* I made it!" And another bonus was that I also bottled a Pilsner just after I got all the advise so it carbonated well, too. I tried some of it Sat, too, and it was another winner. Enough of the winding and to the point... thanks. Tom. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 06:50:38 -0500 From: Bill Wible <bwible at pond.com> Subject: Re:The Bill Wible problem demands immediate action >Obviously Bill cannot be trusted and the HBD should immediately >send in inspectors to check for equipment of mass brewing (EMB) >and stockpiles of liquid yeast that reliable intelligence sources >indicate he is hiding. I have no equipment of mass brewing. I will welcome the inspection teams, but I won't cooperate with them. You have to tell me ahead of time where they will be searching, and they're not allowed to search my spare presidential fridge, or look in any fermenting carboys. Bill Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 06:57:19 -0500 From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com Subject: Quick Disconnects I found mine at www.mcmaster.com, do a search for quick disconnect tube couplings. They have a variety of types, polypropylene, acetal etc for different temperatures. I used them throughout my system, including on the outlet of the kettle and have never had any temperature related issues. Down side of it is that they are kinda pricey! John M. Fraser http://rims-brewing.tripod.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:18:08 -0500 From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com Subject: Re: RIMs Design Mark writes : > In HBD #4179 Dion Hollenbeck recommends to put the temp probe on you RIMs on > the output side of the heating element, this way you avoid overheating your > wort. I have been using my RIMs for several years and have my probe on the > output of the Kettle. I have had problems my attenuation over my last 1/2 > dozen batches. Question for the RIMs brewers here, what is the location of > your temp probe? I am in the process of designing/building a new stand and > want to know if I need to move the temp probe?" I originally had a sensor on both the inlet and outlet of the RIMS chamber, I figured that the average of the two would represent the temperature in the mash tun. After several brews and big problems with attenuation, I decided to thoroughly test the temperatures throughout the system. My system uses DS1820 digital temperature probes, accurate to +/- 0.5C, the temperatures at the inlet and outlet to the RIMS chamber tested accurate. BUT the mash temp started of lower than the average, but as mash time went along, it gradually overtook the average. I couldn't understand it. I changed the software that drives the system to dump the outlet temperature and some other data into a file I could analyze. What I found was that the RIMS chamber AND the twin heater elements I use must develop a lot of thermal inertia at higher temperatures. My system detected the average wort temp and shut the elements down, but due to the thermal inertia, the pumped wort continued to heat and it over shot the required temp by anywhere from three(3) to six(6) degrees, resulting in lots of unfermentables!!! To resolve, I removed the two temp sensors from the RIMS chamber and placed a single probe into a copper tube that I leave sitting in the mash, I use it to stir the mash around every ten minutes. This helped, but I still the software to calculate average temp increase rates to foresee temperature in advance, it now works pretty well and only over shoots by a degree. Most people only use a single water heater element and thin (relatively) walled copper tube to build the chamber, so there may be much less thermal inertia, whereas I use two elements and quite solid 3/32" walled stainless for the chamber. At one point I had even insulated the RIMS chamber, this made the problem of thermal inertia much worse!! John M. Fraser http://rims-brewing.tripod.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:26:28 -0500 From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu Subject: party pig BrainS <schar at cardica.com> expresses concern about staling of beer with the PartyPig. Brian, this is not a problem. I am the proud owner of 11 such pigs, and have kept meads, ales, and lagers for a long time in them...so long as there is good refrigeration, you are ok. A frank look at the pig, however, reveals various advantages and dis-advantages. The most obvious advantage is that you can have 2.25 gal to take anywhere, no need for Co2, and it fits nicely into most fridges. I brew once every 8 days or so, and like to place half of the 5.5 gallon batch in a pig, and the other half in 20 or so bottles...best of both worlds, to me... To some, a disadvantage is the price of the bag/blatter that is used to mimic C02 pressure (about $3.50 per bag). There were some "inflation" problems with the earlier bags (a couple of years ago) but Quoin has gotten the design down pretty well, and I find that so long as one mixes the fluids in the bag well..just prior to pressurizing, that it goes well. Another , to some, disadvantage, (but not to me) is that once the level gets below the neck/ spigot, one has to tilt the pig to get brew out. I'd guess that the brew inside the pig matures in the same manner that it might in a keg, and you can see changes over time, of course, but I feel that these are maturation issues general to brews (some get better over time, some get worse) rather than particuar to the pig. Happy Brewing! ...Darrell Plattsburgh: 44 41 58 N Latitude 73 27 12 W Longitude [544.9 miles, 68.9~]Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 04:55:31 -0800 (PST) From: David Passaretti <dpassaretti at yahoo.com> Subject: re QDs I have been using the brass hose QDs frop Home Depot for several years in my HERMS with great results. I also purchased fittings with 1/2" hose barbs, to fit into my 1/2" brewing tubing, and 3/4" Garden hose threads (different from pipe thread) on the other end to fit the QDs. Although it requires two fittings per connetion it is still less expensive than the brewing QDs I have seen in brewing sores. Remember GHT, unlilke, pipe thread, is hand tighten only and should not need teflon tape. David Passaretti Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 04:56:40 -0800 From: Jonathan ROyce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com> Subject: Re: Guinness Bottles Todd Goodman (from Westford, MA, which I drive through every day on my way to work) wrote: "So I do believe a used widget is useful and that it's a common misconception that the widget it somehow filled with gas aside from what happens during presurized bottling. Of course trying to sanitize a used widget would be a nightmare." I seem to recall sometime back reading either on HBD or r.c.b. that someone was using the widget successfully for homebrew. I think they were chemically sanitizing and just hoping for the best. However, I would like to suggest that heat might be the answer. If the Guiness bottles went into the oven long enough for the widget to come to the sterilization temp, then it should also get sterilized. The problem that I foresee is that the widget is made of plastic, so it might melt. At 250F (which is the maximum I can imagine the widget can withstand), I've read that bottles require a 12 hour sterilization cycle (dry heat). Of course, in a pressure cooker, they only require about 20 minutes. The oven method is probably too inefficient to be practical--anyone got a pressure cooker? Jonathan Woodbury Brewing Co. www.woodburybrewingco.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:58:21 -0500 From: "Mike Dixon" <mpdixon at ipass.net> Subject: Re: Pressure > From: George & Lola <georgelola at netscape.net> > > If I completely sealed my fermenter. But had enough sugar and whatever > to keep my yeast alive let's say indefinitely. > > How much pressure could the yeast create in my fermenter before the > pressure killed them. I understand that the internal pressure of the > yeast would go up with the pressure of the fermenter. > > Would their even be a limit as long as the pressure was held steady? > I ran this little experiment once and at about the same time querried the folks at Siebel during Siebel Week here on the HBD. The best I got from Siebel was "It depends upon the yeast strain." Anyway, from my single experiment, I found the yeast I used became dormant when the pressure reached 45 psi. I would think that number would vary with the strength of the wort and the viability of the yeast as well as with certain strains. When the pressure was removed, the yeast slowly began fermentation again. My suggestion is to run the experiment yourself (not in glass), and report the results. Also, I fermented in a keg and put a pressure relief valve on the gas out set to 100 psi just to be safe. Cheers, Mike Dixon Wake Forest, NC www.ipass.net/~mpdixon/homebrew.htm Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:09:15 -0500 From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net> Subject: Re: Newbie needs help--Spigots I switched to faucets for hot water heaters. See: http://hbd.org/pcalinsk/Faucet.html Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY *********************************************************** *My goal: * Go through life and never drink the same beer twice. * (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.) *********************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 06:26:17 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Newbie Needs Help On the issue of screw top bottles, I, too, wonder if they will be effectively recapped. I wouldn't even try it with an emily capper, but I recently aquired an *old* bench capper from a flea market ($6, just thought i would brag). I love it, and now I am considering the prospect of using screw top bottles, particuliarly Shiner bottles. They are good and heavy, and i really like Shinerbock and Hefe. I am going to bottle a 12-pack of my next batch in a few different screw tops and compare the results. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Anyone successfully use screw-top? mike Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 06:29:07 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Guiness Bottles About sanitizing the widget While I won't try this, because i don't have a counter pressure bottle filler, I think that one could easily sanitize the bottle with widget, if they had a dishwasher with a heated dry cycle that reached 170 degrees. mike Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 08:34:54 -0600 From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy at mavtech.cc> Subject: Passivation of Stainless Friday, the 28th, I will get my 3 =BD barrel kegs back from the machine = shop where I'm getting =BD" stainless couplings welded into them. I've read a bit on the passivation of stainless using citric acid and = it seems like the thing to do. =20 1) Does anyone have any experience with this? 2) Where can I get citric acid? Is it the same stuff sold as a wine additive or do I need a different grade? 3) My system consists of a March MDX-MT3 pump, hard copper piping, and = 3 vessels. =20 Can I fill and treat one vessel then pump the acid solution to the next vessel or will it harm the pump? Thanks in advance for any help. Pat Reddy CONTROLS ENGINEER MAVERICK Technologies pat.reddy at mavtech.cc Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 06:45:33 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: agar plates I, too, am interested in Cynmar Corporation. They seem to have good prices on items for my home yeast microlab. Has anybody ordered from them? Do they sell to the general public? I'm particuliarly interested in their hydrometers, has any one bought one and found them more accurate than those bought at HB stores? mike Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 06:52:22 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Pressure I would be more concerned about your fermenter exploding. My plastic fermenter (not a bucket, but a seven gallon potable water dispenser, cleverly converted) exploded during a cider making misadventure, where remaining apple bits clogged the airlock, thereby creating a "sealed fermenter" the yeast survived such pressure well enough to force out the ball valve on the spigot. Firing yeasty foam in a nasty fountain from the fermenter made for an interesting mess and several threats from my fiancee. I wouldn't recommend sealing your fermenter. mike Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:54:53 -0500 (EST) From: hollen at woodsprite.com Subject: Re: liquid quick disconnects Try Chester Paul Company 1605 Victory Boulevard 91201 GLENDALE, CA United States Phone 323-2453761 Fax 818-2408804 They carry Hansen Straight Through QDs. First check the Hansen web site at : http://coupling.tuthill.com and choose what you want. Although they are sold separately, not as pairs, a pair of socket and plug will run around $10 in brass, and $60 in SS. I strongly suggest getting NPT not barb, as the NPT can be used on anything with an adapter, the barbs, only in hose. I put sockets on all my hoses and plugs on all my vessels. Also, buy at least one of each extra to make adapters with pipe and hose thread connectors. You can't imagine how handy it is to be able to hook up any of your equipment to a hose. regards, dion - -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 15:57:06 +0100 From: "Herman Holtrop" <h.e.holtrop at zonnet.nl> Subject: Rochefort 8 Cloning contest Rochefort 8 Cloning contest Hi you all! Last year Jan Willem van Groenigen posted a message asking for directions for cloning Rochefort 8 (HBD #3910). Since this didn't result in a satisfactory answer, the users of the Dutch Hobbybrewing forum (http://www.hobbybrouwen.nl/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl) put together a joint effort for designing a clone recipe for Rochefort 8. A lot of research went into it from all participating brewers and some of our own experiences were taken into account. After putting together the recipe, we organized a contest as to who could brew up the best clone. As the proud winner of this contest I would like to share with you the results of this competition. We noticed that there is still not much known about Rochefort, so we hope you'll find this interesting. The objective was for all brewers to brew the same recipe in the same manner. However, all brewers had slightly different ingredients from different suppliers. After brewing and some 4 months of maturation, the beers were judged together with the original Rochefort. This event took place on February 15 at De Maasland brewery in Oss, the Netherlands. A total of 15 people from all over the Netherlands and Belgium came together to meet for the first time in real, a very cool experience on its own. On tasting day 10 beers were brought in, plus the original, totalling 11. The judging panel consisted of all brewers, one of whom was a certified beer judge (BKMG, which is comparable to BJCP) completed with one neutral certified judge. In between the tasting, we received a tour of the brewery from brewmaster Frans. he also took care of serving us with all kinds of good food, very necessary when tasting such strong beers. With the exception of one soured sample (which nevertheless was quite tasty), all beers came quite close to the original, although all were a bit too dark. When we started this whole cloning contest, Rochefort beers with the original Special B were still available at shops. However, the beer we used at the tasting was of more recent date, using the new Special B from maltster Dingemans. Some clones were made with the original DWC Special "B" (including the winner), others with the replacing Dingemans version.There is a surely a different taste to it now. The winning beer was made exactly following the recipe below. Fermentation temperature was 21-23C. No water treatment, my water is 10D. For more info about water treatment regarding the Rochefort area, i refer to HBD #4116 & HBD #4115 (article by Jacques Bertens & Jan Willem van Groenigen). For 10 liters, 1.080 OG, 32 IBU, 70 EBC : Maltbill % Amount Malt 70.4 2375 grams Pilsnermalt (Belgian) 11.1 375 grams Caramunich 120 EBC 1.5 50 grams Carafa special dehusked 800 EBC 3.7 125 grams Special "B" 3.7 125 grams Flaked Corn 9.6 325 grams Dark Candysugar Hops (flowers) & Spices Styrian Goldings 23 grams 4.2% 75 minutes Hallertau Hersbrucker 10 grams 3.5% 30 minutes Hallertau Hersbrucker 5 grams 3.5% 5 minutes Coreanderseed crushed 5 grams 5 minutes Yeast: Wyeast 1762 Belgian Abbey II or recultered from a bottle of Rochefort. The winning recipe used the Wyeast. Mashing: 3 liters per kg malt. Flaked corn boiled separately before adding to the mash. 60-62C 30 minutes 68C 60 minutes 75C 5 minutes Sparging with water at 78C A promash recipe file is available at the following location: http://www.geocities.com/iluvhops/brouwsel/rochefort8.html , which will make life easier for all you non-metric brewers. At this location you will also find some extra info (references etc.) together with a copy of this post. Below, I listed some findings based upon variations in the recipes. Of course, this wasn't set up in a randomized, replicated fashion, but I think it might be of interest nonetheless: 1) The use of chocolate malt instead of the dehusked Carafa resulted in a bit of a licorice taste or even a bit of a burned taste. 2) If you can't get Carafa Dehusked, look for a debittered/dehusked dark chocolate/Black malt. It can also be had from Weyermann 3) The use of the original yeast instead of the Wyeast didn't change much in the tasting profile. Which makes sense, because they're said to be similar. 4) The second placed beer (Theo Verschoor) was fermented at 28C, which resulted in a very strong banana and fruit aroma! 5) The third placed beer (Edwin Hoogedoorn) tasted very close to the second, but had a less pronounced aroma, because of a lower temperature fermentation. 6) To get a color more resembling the original, it is suggested to slightly bring down the amount of Carafa. 7) Some beers had problems during bottle-conditioning. When bottling make sure to do it in time or to add a healthy yeast. 8) Samples with added (non-Rochefort) yeast for conditioning did not seem to result in a different taste. All in all a very cool experience, which is to be repeated by a joint Orval cloning contest. A recipe of which has already been agreed upon. :-) Take care, Herman Holtrop Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:00:22 -0600 From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: RE: hop removal and DIMS Eyre writes: > > 2) How do I filter the trub and hops out of the keg after the > boil and the cooling? > Having used both a false bottom and a Bazooka screen, I can tell you that the sticky break created by the Irish moss will clog up both of them if you only use pellet hops. You need whole hops to act as a filter bed. This does not mean giving up pellet hops. You only need an ounce or so of whole hops to provide the filtering action. Buy a good quality aroma hop in bulk for the price savings and keep them frozen (in vacuum bags, preferably). Get a type that you plan to commonly use. If appropriate to the style, they can go in for the aroma hopping. If not, just include them in the bittering addition. They won't impact the final character appreciably there. Onto something of my own: After reading Zymurgy cover to cover last night (well, OK, I skim through the Pap smear) I saw something interesting in Steve Alexander's (nice job, BTW) article on unfair $4000 systems. ;-) A DIMS, or Drop In Manifold System, which as the name suggests, is lowered through the mash after conversion for runoff. Anyone in here actually using one of these? In any case, upon reading about this, it made me think back to an incident involving some fellow club members (who will read this and be mad at me), where the head brewer got the mash for their 30 gallon batch all nicely doughed in, then discovered "someone" (who was never publicly named) had left the false bottom out. There ensued much dumping, installing, re-dumping, frantic stirring at the top of a ladder trying to even out the heating of the now too-cool mash. Blood pressures rose, fingers were pointed, words were said. If only they had had a DIMS on that day. ;-) Cheers Brian Lundeen Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:51:41 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Lager "Gilbert Milone" <gilbertmilone at hotmail.com> writes: >I am brewing my first Lager. It is a simple american >lager, withwyeast 2035. My primary ferment is taking place at 48 degrees for >two weeks.Then I will bring it into room temperature for two days for the >dyictel(sp)rest. I've read a lot of places that 2ndary should be 10 deg >colder then primary, do I have to bring the temp down gradually or can I >just put it in my fridge(35)deg ? Diacetyl rests are not always necessary. It depends on your yeast and to some extent the conditions of the fermentation. You may not need it. The one time I used 2035 (my first CAP), it wasn't necessary. You can taste and smell the finishing beer to see. If you do taste and/or smell diacetyl (butterscotch or buttery), then it is good to raise the temperature when there is still some residual fermentable material. The yeast will only lower the level of diacetyl when it is fermenting. So two weeks may be too late, depending on how much yeast you pitched and how well you aerated the wort. As for lagering, do it as cold as possible without freezing the beer. I generally aim for 30-32F (-1 - 0C). It's generally suggested that you lower the temperature over a period of several days. maybe 10F/5C per day max. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 10:07:27 -0500 From: Steven L Gardner <stevengard at earthlink.net> Subject: RE: liquid quick disconnects Marc.. I went with the reinforced plastic tubing and QD's on my RIMS. I use them everywhere, including a fitting on the wall for my water supply and on the chiller. The local area is involved in plastic injection molding and a friend in the industry pointed me to QD's they use for mold (water) cooling lines. They are brass and come in any configuration to fit your hoses. "Parker Moldmate Series" some of the ones I use are PN 354 & PC 308 (about $5 pair) You will have to find a local distributor from the following (4 yrs old) Parker Hannifin Corp c/o Tracey Hammer 1-612-525-4245 thammer at parker.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 10:05:53 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Lagering in Corny Kegs "Stefan Berggren" <Stefan_Berggren at trekbike.com> asks from Madison, WI >can I rack into a keg and lager in the keg that I >intend to serve from? I am worried about autolysis of the yeast cells >while the lager is conditioning at 35deg (approx. 6-8weeks). Does anyone >have any comments on lagering in the serving keg with respect to >autolysis? Shh, it'll just be our dirty little secret. Yes, I do this all the time when I'm being lazy and I know I'm not going to be moving the keg. I've never had any trouble, even with very pale lagers like CAPs where problems would show up. I just keep the keg down near freezing the whole time, even after lagering is done and the beer is ready to drink, even though that's too cold for serving. I just warm up the beer in the microwave for a few seconds. I figure this low temperature helps the beer keep better than a proper serving temperature would (~45-48F). If I am going to move the keg, I rack it off the yeast under pressure into a completely purged keg. I figure, keep it simple. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 10:31:52 -0500 From: Steven L Gardner <stevengard at earthlink.net> Subject: RE: RIMs Design I use a Ranco controller on my RIMS with a single probe in the mash while monitoring the temp at the mash outflow with a thermometer. I can also raise or lower the mash probe. This works well but only with a thin mash, anything less than 1qt per lb and I get a lot of overshoot. I have thought about running multiple probes (4) for averaging in the mash (2 high 2 low) After reading comments here I want to know what my temp is coming out of the heaters and will try to monitor with a thermometer on the next batch. I have had attenuation problems before but not consistently. I will continue to read this amazing resource ... thanks to all ! Steven G Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 10:55:00 -0500 From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: electric vs. lp Paul, I've done a little bit of figuring on this, but the problem is that propane and electric prices vary considerably from place to place, as does the cost of different brewing implementations. Here's some anecdotal information, FWIW: It cost me ~$300 Canadian to convert my propane system to electric, though I was able to sell off my propane burners and recouped about $100. (BTW a local brewer was able to build an electric system for well under $100 using scrounged parts.) Around here, electricity has been capped at 4.3 cents / kwh. I used to crow about how it cost me less than 30 cents to run my system until a fellow brewer was kind enough to point out that there are now all kinds of associated transmission, dept repayment, etc fees, so in real terms we pay about 10 cents/kwh. My system "burns" 6 - 10 kwh per brew session depending on the boil length, mash schedule, etc, so it costs about $.60 - $1.00 to run. Propane? Well, in Alberta I could get a 20 lb refill for 4 bucks. In Ontario it's 14. Good for say 5 batches, that's a range of $.80 - $2.8. My (admittedly rough) math says that it will take 250 batches, or 2,500 gallons, or at the rate I brew, 50 years to recoup my equipment costs on fuel savings. By then wind powered hydrogen-based brewing will be the way to go, and we'll all be swapping our Ballard fuel cells into HYMES brew systems. ;-) Obviously, cost is not the best reason to switch to electric! Cheers! Drew Avis, Member of Barleyment for Greater Metro Merrickville, Ontario Random Beer Name Generator: http://www.strangebrew.ca/beername.php Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 08:25:17 -0800 From: Mark Alfaro <malfaro at kyocera-wireless.com> Subject: RE: RIMs Design In HBD# 4180, Mark Vernon asks "Question for the RIMs brewers here, what is the location of your temp probe?" Hi Mark, On my RIMS, I have my temp probe at the Mash Tun outlet. I also have a dial thermometer at the heater outlet. This arrangement has served me well through many brews. You can see a couple of pictures of my setup at http://www.borderbrew.homestead.com/Homebrewing_Page.html Hope this helps. Mark Alfaro Chula Vista, CA 1950, 262.1 Rennerian Return to table of contents
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