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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  OT: Re: Smoking (Teresa Knezek)
  re. obtaining convoluted copper tubing. and alchoholism ("Edward D")
  re: The best small serving frig (Ed Jones)
  Exaggeration ("A.J. deLange")
  Software Issues (Reply to Michael O'Donnell) (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Alcoholism & Genetics (Travis Dahl KE4VYZ)
  Asians and Alcohol ("John Bonney")
  Re: freezer paint chipping ("Pete Calinski")
  Alcoholic Genes (effects via ALDH, ADH, etc) (Calvin Perilloux)
  Crown Capper, beer consumption ("David Craft")
  Re: The best small serving frig (Wayne Clark)
  RE: smoking, CABA and alcoholism (Brian Lundeen)
  RE: Genes Nature v. Nurture (Michael Hartsock)
  Re: More pump stuff ("Kent Fletcher")
  RE: Brew Software ("Knight, Jason")
  Forgot to add my beer tally... ("Troy A. Wilson")
  Beer software ("Troy A. Wilson")
  Beer Drinkers Can't Be Alcoholics!?!?!?!? ("Chip Stewart")
  Alcoholic Jeans (Pat Babcock)
  Alc*ism ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Keg Refrigerator ("Dave Larsen")
  Re: Wine During Prohibition ("Rob Dewhirst")
  Guide question from a lurker. ("redbeard47.ny")
  books/airlocks/aromatic cider/yeast cultivation/LME...? (Grant Family)
  Wine Barrels ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  Re:  The best small serving frig (Bruce Millington)
  re smoking ("john w")
  Pilsner Article ("Sweeney, David")


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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:00:47 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: OT: Re: Smoking

On or thereabout 6/19/03, Todd Goodman spoke thusly:
>...you both are confusing public areas (a courthouse for
>example) and private areas where members of the public assemble (a bar
>or restaurant.)

I respectfully must say "bullshit" to that argument. I believe I 
should have the right to step into either a public area OR private 
establishment where members of the public assemble, and NOT be 
physically harmed by the actions of others. That argument is like 
saying I have the right to not be physically assaulted in a PUBLIC 
location, but as soon as I walk into a PRIVATE business, if the owner 
decides to allow his patrons to violently assault each other at will, 
I should accept that I may get my nose broken as a consequence of 
walking through the door.

If you want to physically harm yourself in the privacy of your own 
home, vehicle, etc., I really don't care what kind of drugs you 
choose to do it with. But if you choose to use a drug that is 
reasonably believed to cause harm to non-using bystanders through the 
'normal' mechanism of it's use, I strongly dispute any "right" you 
think you have to do it anywhere but your own property, in which 
members of the public are NOT generally invited to assemble.

>Neither the bartender nor Teresa were chained to the bar as far as I
>know.

Nope. And most assault victims aren't chained to their attacker's 
fist, but you wouldn't argue someone has the right to go around 
taking swings at random people because the intended victims can run 
away if they don't want to be punched. ;-)
- -- 
:: Teresa :: http://rant.mivox.com/
"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents,
not by the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists."
	-- Abbie Hoffman


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:25:55 +0800
From: "Edward D" <edwardd at dodo.com.au>
Subject: re. obtaining convoluted copper tubing. and alchoholism

Troy A. Wilson asks for advice on obtaining convoluted copper tubing.



I have never seen the stuff myself but when I want unusual materials I tent
to look for a user rather than a supplier. If you can find someone that uses
the stuff and has about the amount you want left at the end of a 1000' role
you may be able to get it. Depending on the persons attitude you may pay a
premium or you may get it for a 6 pack of home brew.



- ------



NO Spam. I am sorry to hear about your brother. And I hope he manages to
control his problem soon.



As to weather it is genetic or not considering your position it is unlikely
that there is a strong genetic influence. People with no genetic
predisposition can become alcoholics and people with the strongest of
predispositions can avoid it (although perhaps only by never drinking
alcohol). It is a contributing factor and one of a great many.



If I was in your position however with an alcoholic brother and a possibly
alcoholic grandfather I would regularly take weak or two of drinking for my
own peas of mind. I actually do this anyway even though there are know
alcoholics in my family (that I am aware of).



Edward



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 04:54:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ed Jones <cuisinartoh at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: The best small serving frig

Danby makes a model that has the cooling plate on the back wall. You
won't have to do any modifications to the cooling coils. Kenmore
(Sears) also makes a model like this. The Danby model is the basis for
their kegerator so you don't have any worries about drilling through
the top to mount the tap tower. You can drill through the upper right
corner (as seen from the front door) of the rear wall for a gas line.
The kegerator I bought from them (half price at Home Depot) was
designed to work with a pony keg. I converted it for corny use and can
fit two ball-lock kegs inside.

Good luck,
Ed

=====
Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 12:11:18 +0000
From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Exaggeration

Yes, I suppose I should apologize for saying that the aboriginals of 
Australia universally suffer from alcoholism. It would have been more 
accurate to say that they suffer from it to an appalingly great extent. 
One need only observe conditions in the Todd riverbed after sundown or 
consider that the aboriginal leadership has established  communities 
like Santa Teresa where alcohol is forbidden to the extent that your 
vehicle can be seized if you enter with alcohol in it to appreciate that 
alcohol is a problem of disproportionate magnitude for these people. But 
then again, so is petrol sniffing.

A simplistic model is that if a people evolved with nothing to ferment 
(it's hard to ferment goanna or whale blubber, for example) they didn't 
evolve with the ability to produce the enzymes to allow alcohol to  be 
metabolized. I have no idea whether people who study such things would 
agree or disagree with this model (of, if they agreed, whether the model 
is politically correct enough that they could say they agreeed).

A.J.



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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 09:00:33 -0300
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Software Issues (Reply to Michael O'Donnell)

DISCLAIMER: I'm just a relatively newbie brewer who "thinks about 
stuff" too much...


[From Michael O'Donnell's private reply to my post on "ideal brewing 
software" ("Choosing Which to Brew (Alexandre Enkerli)" HBD#4274, June 
18, 2003).]

Michael said:
> I use pro-mash, but it doesn't do as much for me as I'd hoped because 
> I am not trying to match any particular style.
(Alex says) OTOH, ProMash and others can be used in different ways. 
They just seem to start from the premise of style-matching.

> Mainly, I am trying to squeeze in enough time to brew and keep a 
> varied selection of homebrew in the fridge.
Sounds like a common pattern and one which computer-based tools could 
facilitate.

> I would also like one that took no-sparging well into account.
[I thought this was already available, but Michael seems to think it's 
stretching it.]

> going off your "inventory" boolean, I'd like to be able to look at 
> what I have on hand, then plot a recipe...
This is one practice where software solutions should really help. 
Especially if you take the time to manage your inventory properly.

> Are you thinking of programming something?
Not being a coder, this would be hard but not impossible.

> This sounds like a great program for people who like to brew, but 
> aren't caught up in the competition world.
[Thanks!]
Well, obviously, available programs do much more than helping in 
brewing competitions. I might be wrong but there does seem to be a need 
for a somewhat different approach to "beer computing"...



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:21:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Travis Dahl KE4VYZ <dahlt at umich.edu>
Subject: Alcoholism & Genetics

NO Spam wrote:
> Nobody in this group is likely an alcoholic.
That has recognized it and is actively seeking treatment?  Probably not.

> Alcoholics generally do not drink beer.
This is just blatantly wrong!  I have known _many_ people that were
definitely alcoholics but drank mainly beer.  (Think of all those people
that go through a six pack of Bud Light every night.)  An alcoholic
doesn't necessarily just want to get drunk fast and cheap (although
things like Milwaukee's Best and Natural Light are pretty cheap).  (In
fact, I would someone wanting to get drunk fast may indicate that there
are additional issues involved.)  They do want to drink though and they
can't stop once they do.

> I don't buy that my brother inherited any trait or
> gene from a grandfather he never even knew.
Inheritance of genes has absolutely nothing do with whether or not you
knew the ancestor!  (Think kids adopted from one ethnic group by parents
of another.  They might never have known their asian parents but they'll
look asian because of the genes.)

> Now why is that, if we both came from the same
> family?  Wouldn't I also have this alleged defective
> gene?
Maybe.  Maybe not.  I don't feel like giving a short course in Mendelian
genetics, but if only one of your parents carried the gene, there is only
a 50% chance that you would have. AND what people are sayng is that the
gene only PREDISPOSES you to alcoholism.

 -Travis
[1.8, 98.3] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:43:02 -0400
From: "John Bonney" <john at eostar.com>
Subject: Asians and Alcohol



Many Asians DO lack an enzyme that breaks down alcohol.  The proof is in
the pudding.  Check out this study:

http://www.acponline.org/journals/annals/01sep97/metabol.htm

Search google, you'll find many articles relating to this.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 09:43:11 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: freezer paint chipping

I have had a lot of luck with a product called Extend by Loctite.  It comes
in both brush-on and spray-on forms.

It supposedly chemically converts rust to a substance that inhibits its
spreading ability.

I can usually find it in the Wal-Mart type stores in the automotive paint
section.  Sometimes it is also in the regular paint section.  There are
other brands also.  They are usually characterized by the fact that the
brush on version is a cream color that turns black on contact with rust.
There is usually a caution that it will react with the iron in your skin and
turn that black also.  No real problem though, it sloughs off soon enough.

Just make sure you coat all the rust and don't miss any.  For example, if
the rust has penetrated under near by paint, if you just coat the visible
rust, the rust under the paint will keep going.  I always scrape the paint
away from the rust area to get to the bare metal.  Then I coat the whole
area.

Hope this helps.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:36:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Alcoholic Genes (effects via ALDH, ADH, etc)

Bill writes:  "I don't buy that my brother inherited any trait 
 or gene from a grandfather he never even knew.  His home life 
 wasn't much different from mine, either."

Maybe spending his first 18 years living in the same house as Bill 
has driven the man to drink!  OK, just kidding, that was evil and
insensitive.

For Matt Tolley:

As for the link between Asians and others and alcohol intolerance, 
you can check info below.  I noted in one source that "There 
is a vast literature...".  Indeed.  And the literature DOES show
significant genetic difference, even influencing alcoholism in
many researchers' opinions, but NOT as simple as a single cause/
gene/effect for the difference in alcohol tolerance.

Simplified pathway for alcohol metabolism:

          via                  via 
Ethanol ------> Acetaldehyde ------>  ()acetate 
          ADH                 ALDH  

ADH = Alcohol Dehydrogenase
ALDH = (Acet)aldehyde Dehydrogenase

Many Japanese and Chinese have very HIGH levels of ADH,
actually leading to radid processing of alcohol.
Many East Asians, though, have very LOW levels of ALDH,
leading to accumulations of acetaldehyde, and "bad" sensations.
Combine these two, and drinking just ain't no fun, though you
can surely show some major effects when you do drink (flushing,
among other things).

Europeans, American Indians, etc. all have differing levels of
these things, depending on thir ethnic heritage and individual
variation.  There is also research into DRD4 dopamine receptor 
genes in some populations and other similar factors.  Research
seems ot have been done more with East Asians than American
Indians, though, from what I found.

I imagine a big problem can ensue for those who have low ADH
and high ALDH.  But that's rampant speculation on my own part,
so it's better for you to peruse the hundreds of detailed
studies on the topic if you want to get a feel for the 
(complicated) answers.

For those uninterested in heavy detail on this topic, page down now!

Protective association of genetic variation in alcohol dehydrogenase
with alcohol dependence in Native American Mission Indians.
"CONCLUSIONS: These results are consistent with genetic linkage studies
showing protective associations for alcohol dependence and related
behavior on chromosome 4 and suggest that ADH2 polymorphisms may
account for these findings. "
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12505800&dopt=Abstract

Alcohol Dehydrogenase and Alcohol Dependence - 
Variation in Genotype-Associated Risk between Populations:
This shows significant variation in the genes associated with
alcohol metabolism in Asians, yet the author states flat-out 
in this study that he cannot rule out social factors.
http://info.med.yale.edu/genetics/kkidd/414.pdf

"We discovered that Native American men had markedly diminished
objective and subjective responses to ingestion of alcohol, a finding
similar to what we found in white subjects at high risk for
alcoholism."
http://www.scripps.edu/research/sr2002/np07.html

Alcohol Metabolism in Asian-American Men with Genetic 
Polymorphisms of Aldehyde Dehydrogenase:
Increased levels of acetaldehyde are not reduced as quickly
in some Asian genotypes, thus possibly mediating (!) alcohol
intake!  (Probably because they feel like he11.)
Also interesting, and perhaps a whole 'nother can of worms:
"Consequently, Asians with ALDH2*2 alleles who drink alcoholic
beverages may be at lower risk for alcoholism but may be more
vulnerable to organ damage caused by acetaldehyde."
http://www.acponline.org/journals/annals/01sep97/metabol.htm

"The flushing reaction has been linked to variants of genes for enzymes
that are involved in the alcohol metabolism."
"Liver alcohol dehydrogenase is an enzyme that many ethnic cultural
groups lack, this presents a problem in their ability to digest
alcohol. It started out with Asians and as they migrated, it passed on
to the Eskimos, and to the American Indians. "
http://216.239.39.100/search?
q=cache:iN2QzO4LXrYJ:www3.vjc.edu/academics/faculty/bodnar_john/
bio420papers/adh.pdf+alcohol+dehydrogenase+asian&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Some East Asians, in fact, might be "protected" from alcoholism
by their inheritance of a less-active form of aldehyde-dehydrogenase: 
"When acetaldehyde is not rapidly converted to acetate the results are
dramatic: a rapid increase in blood flow to the skin of the face, neck,
and chest, rapid heartbeat, headache, nausea, and extreme drowsiness
occur. As expected, this aversive reaction affects drinking behavior...
and the mutant gene therefore serves as a protection against heavy
drinking and alcoholism. "   
http://www.indiana.edu/~rcapub/v17n3/p18.html

Enough.  You can find hundreds more articles like these!

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA



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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:49:21 -0400
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Crown Capper, beer consumption

Greetings,

Does anyone sell a handheld crown capper for the larger crown caps?  I hate
to see champagne and lambic bottles go to waste.....

As for how much beer do I consume, it depends on if I step on the scales!

Brewing on,

David Craft
Greensboro, NC





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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:44:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Wayne Clark <driftwoodtex at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The best small serving frig

A couple of years ago, I bought a fridge from a friend
who was refurbishing a Wendy's. He had a couple of
small fridges that fit under the counter. I bought one
for $20, and it works perfectly as a beer fridge. The
only drawback is that its tall enough to fit a
pin-lock keg, but a ball-lock keg is too tall by about
a half inch. You could probably find one at a
restaurant supply store.

Wayne
[3643.3, 8.1] Apparent Rennerian



Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:09:11 -0700
From: "Victor Franklin" <victorfranklin at cox.net>
Subject: The best small serving frig

I am getting ready to construct a built-in BBQ and
eating area in my 
back 
yard. I will be adding the essential beer tap, as
well. So, I am in the
 market for a small refrigerator I can put 2 to 3
corney kegs in and 
run 
my tap hoses out the top. Most of the under-counter
refrigerators I 
have seen would only fit one (if that) corney keg in
them.

Does anyone know a brand and/or model of refrigerator
that 
is good for this purpose?
  
I am trying to avoid the high cost of the ready-made
Kegerator 
type refrigerator. Any help is greatly appreciated.

For the record, I am a 1-3 pint per night person of
homebrew.  
If I run out, I am a 0-2 beers per night person.  


Best Regards,

Victor Franklin





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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 09:58:39 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: smoking, CABA and alcoholism

Todd Goodman writes:
> 
> Leaving aside the fact that many of these second-hand smoke 
> studies are fatally flawed you both are confusing public 
> areas (a courthouse for
> example) and private areas where members of the public 
> assemble (a bar or restaurant.)

And you know they are fatally flawed how? Because you are an expert in this
field of study? Or because you came across some "analysis" written by people
with an agenda in such a manner so as to provide justification in the minds
of lay-people who already want to believe this is so?

As for your distinction, every place is a place of work for somebody. Why do
you consider it acceptable (or maybe you don't) to ban smoking in an office
but not in a restaurant or bar? That is the thrust behind Winnipeg's
all-inclusive smoking ban which takes effect July 1. It is there to protect
the health of workers who must spend long hours in that environment. The
argument is often made that many bar workers are smokers. Doesn't matter.
The cumulative exposure to second hand smoke for hours at a time is worse
than what many smokers would get from their own intake, or at the very least
compounds the problem.

The health issues aside, cigarettes fill the air with a horrid stench. Many
smokers probably don't realize just how repulsive they smell. A smoker can
enjoy a non-smoking environment. Many non-smokers can not enjoy a smoking
environment. I would love to go out, have a drink and listen to some jazz in
a bar. I can't, unless I want to spend the next day clearing my lungs out.
On July 1, I will be able to go out and enjoy any venue. To me, that's
personal freedom.

Drew Avis writes:
> 
> On another subject, the future of the Canadian Amateur 
> Brewers' Association has been the topic of debate at our 
> local club since the recent CABA newsletter came out.  I 
> really haven't seen much discussion on the CABA forum, and it 
> sounds like the western clubs are not impressed, though their 
> participation in CABA has traditionally been limited.  Any 
> thoughts out there on how to re-invent this organization?  Is 
> it worth keeping?  What are other Canadian clubs thinking?  
> BTW a copy of the newsletter article is posted at 
> http://www.homebrewers.ca/cabafuture.php .

A few days ago, I read in the CABA newsletter that clubs had been contacted
for feedback on this proposal. I sent an email out to every member of last
year's and this coming year's Brew Bomber executive, and nobody had been
contacted. I guess we just aren't important enough, or something. You think
that kind of snub is going to get a favorable response? Well, I'm just
speaking for myself now. Sometime soon, we (the executive) will be getting
together to discuss this matter.

CABA has always been a Toronto-Montreal centered organization. Little wonder
the western clubs could care less about it. They say they want to give
homebrew clubs across the country a chance to host their 3 major
competitions. Well, let's see, how many clubs are going to get a shot at
March in Montreal? All about Ales? This event has fizzled out as much as it
has been held. The GCHC was barely able to run this past year. Both can be
directly attributed to the overwhelming homebrewing apathy in the Toronto
area. Now this Toronto organization wants to grant the favour of hosting
their events to the rest of the country? 

If I was the AHA, I would simply pack up the Canadian qualifying event and
move it from the GCHC to the Regina ALES club's competition. It's going
through some growing pains, but at least there is participation and
enthusiasm there. If that happens, who cares about the GCHC?

CABA has yet to explain why their continued existence is even important.
Their newletter is a pathetic little flyer. The first two of this year
featured a reprint of a 10 year old article without any updating, and an
article written entirely in French. Yeah, that's going to get the western
clubs champing at the bit.

Now someone is probably going to bring up that this is based on my personal
dislike for a certain CABA member in Montreal. I don't doubt that is playing
a part in my feelings. However, I also think that there are valid issues in
my rant. In any case, I'm just one vote on the Brew Bomber executive. If we
don't support the proposal, then there's more to it than just a personality
conflict.

Bill Wible writes:
> 
> 
> And as far as my not knowing what I'm talking
> about, let's just say that my own brother is
> an alcoholic, and my family and I have been
> putting up with it for quite some time.  
> 
> Now why is that, if we both came from the same
> family?  Wouldn't I also have this alleged defective
> gene?
> 

Bill, having personal experience with a problem is not the same as having
knowledge of a problem. Enough evidence was presented to show that there is
a genetic connection, but that genetics alone is not the sole determining
factor. Best let this one go.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg


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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:58:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Genes Nature v. Nurture

In reference to Pinker, you have to read beyond the
title to think you know the thesis of his works.  From
Publisher's Weekly:

Drawing on decades of research in the "sciences of
human nature," Pinker, a chaired professor of
psychology at MIT, attacks the notion that an infant's
mind is a blank slate, arguing instead that human
beings have an inherited universal structure shaped by
the demands made upon the species for survival, albeit
with plenty of room for cultural and individual
variation. 

Pinker's work is not just titled "the blank slate" but
rather, "The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human
Nature"  The crux of Pinker's arguement is that
genetic predispositions do not eliminate the influence
of culture and environment ("nurture" if you will). 
Pinker's book is a critique of the cultural dogma that
results from the engrained, Lockian notions of "tabula
rosa" (the blank slate).

This means that we can recognize the possibility of
genetic predispositions towards alcoholism in a
genetic cohort, while still realizing that environment
(poverty, etc) are also powerful influences to such
behavior.

In short, Pinker does not support -S, et al.

Mike
University of Missouri-Columbia



=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:22:51 -0700
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com>
Subject: Re: More pump stuff

Parker needs a little help sorting out the specs on pumps for a HERMS:

> Is there someone here using a Little Giant Pump, model 3-MDX,
> 115V or a 3-MX-MDX?  The Little Giant web page says the MDX
> pumps can handle temps of 150 deg and have 1 foot of head
> space (snip)

That's one foot of head, not "head space."  Head is a term used to measure
resistance to flow caused by gravity, friction, or both.  A foot of head is
the force exerted by a column of water one foot tall.  2.31 feet of head = 1
psi.  Note that this is for water, or a liquid with a SG of 1.000.  Pumps
are rated for delivered gpm or gph at x head.  Pump spec charts typically
show the capacity at several different amounts of head, and the "shut off,"
where 0 flow occurs.

The 3MDX will pump 360 gph at 9 feet of head (and 0 at about 19).  Thats 6
gallons per minute.  Besides lifting the wort, in a HERMS application there
is also considerable resistance to flow due to the coil and control devices.
for example, a solenoid valve with a 1 psi drop across the valve adds 2.31
feet of head .  So don't look at your rig and think: "I'm only lifting the
wort 3 feet, so I can get a smaller pump."

In the Little Giant line, the 3-MD-MT-HC is a much better choice because it
is designed to handle 200 degree temps.  The 3-MDX would PROBABLY work for
you, at least for a while, but it will fail sooner than the HC series.  You
might want to try eBay, March and Little Giant mag drive pumps appear there
fairly frequently.

Hope that helps,
Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal



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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:31:17 -0500
From: "Knight, Jason" <jason-knight at uiowa.edu>
Subject: RE: Brew Software

I'm more of a server-whacker and JOAT than a software developer, but
currently my magic bullet for these sort of things is MySQL for databases
and PHP or Perl for web-interface, calculations, etc.
	Plus, it's free, cross-platform, and we can all pitch in. There's an
example homebrewing database at www.phpgroupware.org (though it ain't yet
something I would call useful).
	Brewing-wise, I guess you could call me an intermediate beginner: I
don't really know all that's involved with sophisticated brewing software,
but I'd love to take a whack at it. Gregory -- wanna collaborate?


Jason Knight, Systems Analyst | You want it *WHAT*?		
University of Iowa            | FIXED?!?
Health Care IS                | Perhaps you should talk to
jason-knight at uiowa.edu        | a Systems *SYNTHESIST*.
Avid component of RFC2795     | I just break 'em.
\insert{standard-disclaimer}



Gregory Morris writes:
> 
> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:32:51 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Gregory D. Morris" <gmorris at literati.com>
> Subject: Brew Software
> 
> Well, as far as the software issue goes, I haven't found any 
> free software
> for Mac OS X that really does what I want.  As a software 
> developer, having
> absolutely no time between work and brewing, have decided to 
> go ahead and
> write a web-based brewing tool.  Since I use a Mac at home, 
> and my brew
> buddies use Windows, I need something cross-platform, so we 
> can all update
> our brew data.
> 
> Currently the most important part of my plan is to create a 
> database for
> handling recipes.  Conversion forms and such will probably be added as
> well, since I always need them.
> 
> I would be more than happy to take suggestions from HBD.  If there are
> specific features it should have let me know.
> 
> 
> To reply to every other major thread at once: ~2 drinks a 
> day, ship bottles
> if you want to, cascade is good, my local brew store is 
> great, the alcohol
> content of my homebrew is always between 4 and 8 depending on 
> what I am
> brewing.
> 
> Gregory Morris
> Web Developer
> Literati
> (304) 296-8026 ext.139
> gmorris at literati.com
> 
> 
> 


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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:52:49 -0500
From: "Troy A. Wilson" <troy at troyandjulia.com>
Subject: Forgot to add my beer tally...

I'm on the road a lot, but when I'm home I drink 2-3 pints a day.

Troy A. Wilson
troy at troyandjulia.com

There are only 10 types of people in the world:
Those who understand binary and those who don't.

- ---
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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 11:49:26 -0500
From: "Troy A. Wilson" <troy at troyandjulia.com>
Subject: Beer software

I do like the idea of a recipe lookup based on the ingredients that you
have available.
There are many food and beverage recipe program available that do just
that. You either
maintain an inventory and then get a list of recipes that you can make
based on your
current inventory or you enter the ingredients that you have and get a
list of recipes.

In Pro-Mash there is already an inventory database present. Maybe if we
asked nicely,
the good people at Pro-Mash would look into adding a recipe search. Of
course that might
mean changing the way they store recipes.

And that is my $.02 worth for the day.

Troy A. Wilson
troy at troyandjulia.com

There are only 10 types of people in the world:
Those who understand binary and those who don't.

- ---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 6/10/2003
 



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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:41:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chip Stewart" <Charles at thestewarts.com>
Subject: Beer Drinkers Can't Be Alcoholics!?!?!?!?

Great!  So the guy lying on the street in front of my office who drinks three
bottles of MD 20/20 a day is just a social drinker.  I'm releived.  And I was
concerned about a buddy of mine who goes through a case of Bud per day, but now
I need not worry.

When it comes to asinine, inane commentary, you've really topped yourself this
time, and that's a considerable feat!

Chip Stewart
Charles at TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com

Support anti-Spam legislation.
Join the fight http://www.cauce.org

On Wed, 18 Jun 2003,Bill Wibble enlightened us on the definitive test for
alcoholism:
> 
> Nobody in this group is likely an alcoholic.
> Alcoholics generally do not drink beer.  They
> drink harder alcohol that gets them drunk quicker
> and is easier for them to have access to and
> even hide if they have to.  An alcoholic just
> wants to drink, and will not take the time to
> brew beer, with 5% alcohol.


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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:45:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Alcoholic Jeans


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your genetic counselor...

First, I thought it was nothing. A Guinness stain here an Orval
dribble there - could have been picked up anywhere at anytime.
Then it started escalating. Disappearing for long hours into the
night, to casually reappear to be just where you'd expect,
innocently, nochalantly - giving no hint of what went on the
night before. You'd try to think nothing of it, except for it
had not been that way before. The smell of bar smoke, alcohol
pervaded the very core.

All attempts to be selective in comsumption finally fell away -
no more Guinness or Orval or Two-Hearted Ale stains. Bud,
Michelob, Heineken, Falstaff: any old beer would do. Beer can
tabs and bottle labels in the pockets, bar match book
covers, too. Then came the hard liquor as evidenced by the 
flask in the back pocket. An unbearable odor of urine and
stains of spilled liquor everywhere. Tattered holes patched in
Tartan plaid, brazenly traipsing through my brewery!!!

Folks, I have alcoholic jeans. I've tried everything to seek
counseling for them, I've even sent them to spend time with
their maker, but to no avail - Levi Strauss could offer no
succor to my poor, tortured jeans. And now my jeans have left
me. I spent days searching the local Purple Heart, St. Vincent
dePaul, and Salvation Army stores, but to no avail. They have
apparently had enough of my care, my nagging desire to bring
them home from this affliction, and they have gone the way of my
favorite bowling shirt, comfortable sneakers, lucky fishing
hat...

Sorry, folks! Couldn't resist. Not a case of trying to make
light of the issue, but definitely a case of trying to lighten
the Digest...

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:47:30 -0400
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu>
Subject: Alc*ism

Bill,

I am truly sorry to hear about your brother.  I have been there (not my
brother, but other close friends and relatives, some of whom are still
drinking.)  I can understand your anger and frustration.

Alcoholism is a nasty, ugly disease. Its initial and primary effect is
on the mind and behavior of the alcoholic. This is one reason that it
feels different to us than other diseases. As the disease progresses,
the person withdraws more and more from "the world" and becomes more and 
more focused on ONE thing: alcohol. Unfortunately and sadly, until the 
affected person "hits bottom" and becomes ready to change, almost all 
attempts at intervention will fail.  Some people do not hit bottom 
before they die. Alcoholism IS a fatal disease, if not treated.

But, you make some statements that are simply not true:

1. Alcoholics don't drink beer.  This is an old "momily".  Yes, some
alcoholics prefer harder forms of alcohol.  But my experience is that
each alcoholic has their preferred form of imbibing (their "drug of
choice" as it is often called.)  I know plenty of alcoholics who drank
nothing but beer by choice.

2. "Probably nobody on this list is an alcoholic." One of the best 
homebrewers I knew, and someone who made huge contributions to the hobby 
and to this forum, is an alcoholic. He recognized this and "got clean" a 
few years ago.

3. If you have the "same genes" as your brother why are you not an 
alcoholic?  Do you look the same as your brother?  Do you have the same 
eye color?  Do you have the same hair? Are you the same height?  All of 
these are clearly genetically influenced, but you don't expect them to 
be the same, do you?  Same with an genetically inherited susceptibility 
to alcoholism.  And it is clear that environment has a lot to do with 
whether the disease develops in a susceptible person.

I have found that, FOR ME, understanding that alcoholism is a disease,
and that it CAN be treated (never cured, but in many cases successfully
treated) really helped me to reduce my anger at those close to me with
this disease.  Should I be angry at someone who gets cancer?  Well, if
they smoked all their life, maybe. :-)  But still not in the same way
that I have been angry at the alcoholics in my life.

I have found (some) relief in the Al-Anon program. It is a 12-step
program that helps me to live my life, and to deal with the anger and
other feelings that I had and have towards the alcoholics in my life. It
didn't teach me how to "cure" the disease, but my life is better because
of it. Plus, it's a LOT cheaper than therapy, and probably more effective.

=Spencer





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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 19:53:20 +0000
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpumonkey at hotmail.com>
Subject: Keg Refrigerator

About a year ago, I purchased a small Kenmore refrigerator at Sears that is 
the perfect size to hold two corny kegs.  It does not have a clunky freezer 
at the top that gets in the way it like most small refrigerators.  I swear, 
it is almost like it was made to hold two cornies.  It comes in black or 
stainless steel.  I picked it up on sale for under 200 bones.

I'm out of town on business, so I can't go home to tell you exactly what 
model it is, but just I did some searching around www.sears.com and I'm 
pretty sure it was this one:
http://www.sears.com/sr/product/details/productdetails.jsp?prod_id=04691499000

Dave
Tucson, AZ


Victor wrote:

>
>I am getting ready to construct a built-in BBQ and eating area in my back 
>yard. I will be adding the essential beer tap, as well. So, I am in the
>market for a small refrigerator I can put 2 to 3 corney kegs in and run my 
>tap hoses out the top. Most of the under-counter refrigerators I have seen 
>would only fit one (if that) corney keg in them.
>
>Does anyone know a brand and/or model of refrigerator that is good for this 
>purpose?
>



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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:19:12 -0500
From: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: Wine During Prohibition

> Homebrewing(?) wine was legalized shortly after the repeal of
> prohibition in 1933.

A highly ambiguous, anomalous, and debated section of the Volstead Act
allowed "nonintoxicating cider and fruit juices exclusively for home use".
For the most part this allowed legal wine and hard cider production at home
during Prohibition.  It was widely intepreted that the exemption for this
was unnecessary if  "non-intoxicating" really meant "non-alcoholic".



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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 18:59:55 -0400
From: "redbeard47.ny" <redbeard47.ny at netzero.net>
Subject: Guide question from a lurker.

Just a quick question, I won a trip with a guide, how much is normal to 
tip? I don't even know what he usually charges. Bob.

Beer, it's not just for breakfast anymore!



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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:01:47 +1000
From: Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: books/airlocks/aromatic cider/yeast cultivation/LME...?

Hi, I'm new, so here are my newbie questions:

1) I've found Palmer's How to Brew (online), how does it compare to other
  books? I find it fantastic from a fairly naive point of view...
2) I've been brewing my first beer with my new 23L (5 gallon) setup. But how
  does one take periodical SG readings without having air sucked in through the
  air lock? This is a rhetorical question, obviously, because it's kind of 
impossible
  isn't it? If so, does the air you let in matter much?
3) My first foray into home brewing was some (hard) cider in tiny 1/2 gallon
  batches. I more recently conducted some cold fermentations (~40F) with
  the stuff (fresh apple juice; one batch with champagne yeast/one with wild
  yeasts) and found that once it had fermented dry, the brew was still very
  acidic and wonderfully aromatic. Is this because the temperature delayed
  malo-lactic (secondary) fermentation as I have read...? And why is it so
  fragrant?
4) Seeing as I'm only one guy, and 48 bottles of beer is a lot to get through,
  each batch will last me a while... if I wanted to cultivate a particular 
yeast,
  how would I keep it? Fridge? Do I try to dry it? etc. etc...
5) What's the difference between the malty goo that comes with a kit (e.g.
  Coopers Draught, which I'm brewing now) and LME that you buy separately?
  Is it just that the kits are always hopped?

p.s. I'm using imperial just for you yanks! God bless Australia too.

thanks----------------------------------------stuart grant, pseudo-zymurgist.



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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:19:53 -0700
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Wine Barrels

Hi,
  I have the ability to get 60 gallon used wine barrels.  Can these be 
used for aging?  I know bourbon barrels are frequently used, but I
wasn't 
sure if the same would work with wine.

Thanks
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA
[1978.7, 275.3] Apparent Rennerian
In Heaven there is no beer, that's why we drink it here,
And when we're gone from here, our friends will be drinking all the
beer.


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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 20:56:51 -0400
From: Bruce Millington <bmillington2 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re:  The best small serving frig

Victor,
I would suggest buying a 7.0 cubic foot chest freezer with an external
thermostat.  You can run the hoses through the lid and put on a three faucet
tower.  You can get the chest freezer at Sam's Club (no affiliation) for
$160, and the thermostat at most homebrew shops for around $40.

Bruce Millington
Marlton, NJ



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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 20:24:11 -0500
From: "john w" <j2saret at hotpop.com>
Subject: re smoking

Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
Makes many false claims about the freedom of business owners to do harmful
things.  I've taken my reply off post as it has become too political to
include much about brewing.  Suffice to say he is wrong in 99% of his
particulars.

John
>From Mn where the tobbacco industries own concealed studies were forced from
hiding and their evil shown to the world.




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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:15:45 -0500
From: "Sweeney, David" <David at studentlife.tamu.edu>
Subject: Pilsner Article

In HBD 4240. Shawn Scott wrote;
>>>I'm the culprit responsible for the Zymurgy article you quoted, and 
would be glad to add a few extra comments.  The Schmitz process 
is briefly mentioned in volume 1 of De Clerck's "A Textbook of 
Brewing"...<<<
 
OK.  I've made the Pride of Plzen following your recipe and 
process (double decoction using Schmitz). This Saturday is the 
12th day of primary.  I found out today that my kids left my 
fermentation frig door open and my core temperature is 68F 
(this is the 10th day of primary).  I'm rationalizing to myself that 
this will just help reduce diacetyl, rather than admit it's a mistake. 
I'm dropping it back down to 50F.
 
I've frozen 2 qts. of wort from the original boil to use in "krausening." 
I want to bottle half the batch and keg the other half of the batch.
 
Here's my question:
 
If I add the "krausening" addition to my secondary corny as per your 
instructions, can I then bottle half of the batch off of the corny the same 
day and then secondary ferment both halfs according to your instructions 
(reduce 1 degree per day for 10 days then drop to 34F for 4 weeks)?  
In other words, will my carbonation be correct if I add 1qt  to the 5 gal.? 
If not, how much should I add? The OG of the wort is 1.048.

David Sweeney
Texas Aggie Brew Club
david at studentlife dot tamu dot edu


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