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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Fat tax (MATTHEW HAHN)
  Washing and Storing yeast, Old oak casks and beer ("Dave Burley")
  beer and cheese ("Dave Burley")
  Excessive both wing rants ("Byron Towles")
  Sweet HomeBrew Chicago - Glad ya liked it!! ("Formanek, Joe")
  RE: Hewfeweissen ("Sven Pfitt")
  cubic ft. needed for fridge ("steve lane")
  Food and Beer/Vegas 2004/Sulfur Sticks ("Paul Gatza")
  *** HBD SLAMDOWN! RESULTS *** (mohrstrom)
  Can the moderators do something about the OT posts? ("Dave")
  Chamomile in beer (Chad Holley)
  Yeast washing... ("Mike Sharp")
  RE: Yeast washing / Neocon rants ("Drew Avis")
  Water Talk Viewgraphs Now Online (BrewInfo)
  Keg Balancing Question (Smallaxe27)
  Please repost ("john w")
  Left turn (David)


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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:31:22 -0400
From: MATTHEW HAHN <mchahn at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fat tax


On Thursday, June 26, 2003, at 12:18 AM, Request Address Only - No 
Articles wrote:

> NO Spam shows us a proposed law for a tax on junk food video games and 
> TV
> advertising to pay for obesity prevention programs. Personally I don't 
> think
> it will get anywhere and if it was to be proposed in my aria I would 
> email
> the relevant bodies to tell them it is stupid

Well, it's not over till the fat lady sings.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:44:25 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Washing and Storing yeast, Old oak casks and beer

Brewsters:

Mike Eyre asks about washing yeasts and storing them, fearing he will only get
one month's viability.

I recall that some of the early work on storing yeast took place in Sweden.
Lager yeast has been successfully stored in distilled water even at room
temperature for a year or longer.  The trick is to wash off the bacteria and
food sources for them and yeast first.  A wash with a 1% tartaric acid
solution helps, followed by a series of rinses to neutrality with sterile
distilled water is the way to do it.  Then pop it in the fridge tightly
covered..  Be sure to restart it in a preferably stirred starter of
approximately the same .o.g.as your planned brew  before trying to use it.
- ------------
Zemo details the struggle to use an old bourbon cask in which to age a high
alcohol ale.  Lactic souring took place ( as to be expected) on long storage.
Stale Ale was considered to be good thing in Merry Old when beer was aged for
a year ( and gained in value, becoming  an item for investment)  in huge oaken
vats.

Why didn't you just blend it with fresh beer at the time of drinking as was
the habit (e.g. three threads)  in Britain or Gueze in Belgium?

BTW don't beat yourself up too much on not sanitizing the cask.  In uncoated
barrels, that is an impossibility due to the porosity of the wood and the
cracks between the staves., esp one that has been sitting around empty for a
while.

I am sure you have read here that when barrels were an item of commerce and
the only way beer was shipped, these barrels were coated inside with pitch and
this was replaced with hot molten pitch on each return to the brewery. Even
though these barrels of fresh ale had a turnaround of a few weeks, souring was
possibility.

On a more practical scale, why not purchase an untoasted 5 or 10 gallon oak
barrel from a wine hobby store? And plan on getting an anaerobic lactic
fermentation and blending at the time of drinking.

Soak the cask in acidic ( use tartaric or citric)  potassium metabisulfite
solution until it stops leaking - three or more days -and rinse well with cold
boiled water to neutrality.  The sulfur stick you burn in the barrel is for
wine and depends on the acidity of the wine ( pH too high in beer) for its use
as a sanitizing agent. Keep the barrel topped up by checking it at least
monthly.

Keep on Brewin;

Dave Burley




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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:59:35 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: beer and cheese

Brewsters:

I heartily support the beer and cheese party being sponsored in GA by the
Georgians for World Class Beer on July 13. http://justonemore.com/GWCB/
If time permits, I hope to make it.

I have read recently that beer makes a better match to cheese than wine. Maybe
in the Chimay site where I got a screen saver also.

Here are some other sources in this subject:

http://www.realbeer.com/library/beerbreak/archives/beerbreak20010104.php

And an extract from this article:

The Milk Marketing Board clearly understands the strong link between beer and
cheese in Wisconsin. In 1998 it provided the funding for a 16-page full color
"Sampler's Guide To Wisconsin Specialty Cheese and Craft Beer." It is full of
tips on pairing beer and cheese, tasting tips and recipes.

Some of the suggested pairings:

 - Mascarpone, a soft Italian-style cheese, with a Belgian-style Saison. The
tangy beer will contrast nicely with buttery richness of the Mascarpone.

 - Fresh Mozzarella and and a dark lager. Another nice contrast: In this case
dark malts and sweet dairy flavors.

 - Monteray Jack with Jalapeno and a bottle-conditioned winter warmer. A big,
malty beer will stand up well to the hot peppers and Monterey Jack. A great
combo in front of a roaring fire.

 - Smoked Gouda and bock beer. Another beer for cool days, smooth yet with
enough toastiness to take on the mild smokiness of the cheese.

 - Gruyere and witbier. The spices of the Belgian white beer -- coriander,
orange peels and other 'secret" choices -- should meld well with the earthy,
nutty Gruyere. Substitute Swiss cheese if you want.

 - Aged Cheddar and stout. A big stout, with lots of chocolate and black malts
so that it hints of coffee, should be handle the the complexity of a well
aged, still sharp Cheddar.

Want more specific recommendations? Beer guru Fred Eckhardt conducted a late
night beer and cheese tasting last October during the Dixie Cup homebrew
competition in Houston, Texas. On his menu:

 - St. Arnold Fancy Lawnmower Beer, a Texas Koelsch-style beer, with a Muenster
cheese.

 - Live Oak Pilz, a Bohemian-style pilsener, with a small pretzel topped with a
wedge of apple and covered by Canadian Black Diamond Cheddar.

 - Bradley's Riptide Red Ale, an amber, with Japapeno Pepper cheese.

 - St. Arnold Cask-Conditioned Amber Ale with an aged Gouda from the
Netherlands.

 - Bradley's Hopzilla IPA with hot Brie cheese.

 - Anchor Porter with Maytag American Blue cheese from the Maytag Farms in
Iowa.

 - Full Stout Stout with Stilton cheese from England.

 - Belgian Trappist Chimay Grand Reserve with Chimay Trappist cheese.

 - TwoRows Barley Wine with hot Bavarian Blue Triple Cambazola, a blue Brie
cheese.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley





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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:47:26 -0500
From: "Byron Towles" <beer.man at cox.net>
Subject: Excessive both wing rants

Enough damned politics. The ONLY possible tie-in for politics here is
a reason to drink in the first place. This is a digest dedicated to the
discussion
of beer, not who's right, who's wrong, and who's the stupidest in the grand
scheme of political control. Let it go people. Please, for the love of my
and
possibly other people's sanity.


Robin Griller postulated in HBD #4281,

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 10:54:56 -0400
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: excessive right wing rants

Hi all,

Is anybody else getting as tired as I am of the seemingly endless long
winded free market, neocon crud arriving in the digest day after day
recently? Writing from a land of socialized medicine some of it is *very*
funny, I have to admit, but enough already....can't believe I'm saying it,
but enough with the narrow minded political drivel, let's get back to
beer.

Robin




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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:02:58 -0500
From: "Formanek, Joe" <Jformanek at griffithlabs.com>
Subject: Sweet HomeBrew Chicago - Glad ya liked it!!

There have been some wonderful comments about Sweet HomeBrew Chicago on HBD
over the past few days.  I believe that I can speak for the whole
Organizational Committee in saying that these comments are greatly
appreciated, and that we are all very pleased that the attendees had a great
time enjoying our Chicago hospitality!
With any conference, you have to have both the events and the participation
by attendees to make it great.  Without question, we had both this year.
Fantastic speakers, great participation by clubs, and a general fun attitude
by all of the attendees.
I heard an interesting comment made by one of the security personel at the
hotel.  At first, he was concerned when he heard that a bunch of "drunken
homebrewers" were going to be invading his hootel, and he was really on
guard for trouble.  Turns out that he had less trouble with us (actually,
none at all!) than he has seen in the past with other groups that they've
had - including conventions of a religious bent!  This in itself really
speaks highly for our group.
Thanks again to all the attendees - it was a great time, and it wouldn't
have been such a great time without you.

Cheers!!
Joe

Joe Formanek
Club Night and Hospitality Room Coordinator
Sweet HomeBrew Chicago - 2003 NHC.


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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:53:18 -0400
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Hewfeweissen

Jan-Willem  responds to Michael Hartsock asked for advice on
malt/yeast/mashing for brewing a dunkelweizen.

 ..... Snip.....

>As far as the yeast goes, most people I know go for wyeast weihenstephan. 
>That one should give >you plenty of bananas. In fact, I dislike it for that 
>reason, and normally use recultured Schneider yeast, >which I find more 
>subtle. If you use Weihenstephan, I wouldn't go for temps higher than 20C. 
>With >the recultured Schneider (but I don't think you can get that on your 
>side of the ocean) I'd go a little >higher, say 22C.

 .... SNIP....

I used Weihenstephan in my last two batches of Hefe.. No banana at all. 
Mashed at 110 and then 152. Infusion only. One batch feremented at 68 (20C) 
and  the second at 71 (22C). 5 gallon batches with 2L starters.  Both ended 
up tart, but no banana and very little  clove. Several friends who have been 
to Germany stated it was very like Hefe they had consumed there, so I guess 
there is a lot of variation there as well.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968



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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:02:14 -0500
From: "steve lane" <tbirdusa at hotmail.com>
Subject: cubic ft. needed for fridge

I'm breaking ground tomorrow on my new house and I'm dedicating an area to 
it for brewing.  I've been like a kid in a candy shop with the freedom to 
move walls and put gas lines, power outlets and drains where I need them.  I 
must say, moving things around with a pencil on blue prints is much easier 
than moving the actual "sticks and bricks"  Under the front porch of the 
house is a concrete bunker that is typically just dead space and it backs up 
the bar area.  This bunker is just part of the foundation structure.  The 
room is 6 foot x 6 foot and 9 feet tall.
My thoughts are to bore a 3" hole through the wall to allow me to place a 
fridge in this room and run my lines through the bored hole.  I'm worried 
though that the room has no air exchange/ventilation except for the door 
that accesses through my daughters closet.  Will a small old style rounded 
top fridge be OK in this room or will there be problems with it overheating 
in such a room.  Any words of wisdom from the forum on a setup like this?  
My other option is to put room temp. cornies back there and put a cold plate 
in the small dorm type fridge.  Will a cold plate in a fridge chill the 
brews adequately?
Thanks
Stephen Lane



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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:33:51 -0600
From: "Paul Gatza" <paul at aob.org>
Subject: Food and Beer/Vegas 2004/Sulfur Sticks

That truly was a monster AHA National Homebrewers Conference. The Chicago
committee did an amazing job of putting together a fantastic event, clubs
turned out with incredible hospitality, many volunteered their time to judge
and steward the National Homebrew Competition. The speakers were great. I'm
still on an emotional high from the event, so I'll cut the superlatives here
and move on...

Food for Thought:  One of the areas we stumble with in promoting our hobby
is gender balance. Saturday afternoon at the conference was devoted to beer
and food seminars, and the seminar attendees for this period of time shifted
toward a greater balance of men and women. This observation is intriguing
and encourages me to want to do more with food and homebrewing, and with how
we discuss beer flavors with those that don't brew.

The 2004 conference is set for the Riviera on the strip in Las Vegas on June
16 to 19, 2004. The local committee is chaired by Tyce Heldenbrand and
members of SNAFU. Tyce will be looking for support from brewers from all
over Southern California, Nevada and Arizona, as well as the clubs who
travel greater distances to participate in every conference. Imagine
hundreds of kegs of homebrew, hundreds of homebrewers having a great time
and the playground that is Vegas. Should be some fun.

Zemo wrote:
>In retrospect, I wish I'd spent more time maintaining the barrel:
from proper sanitation (burning a sulfur stick)<

My experience is that when using sulfur sticks, expect the next several
liquids that spend time in the barrel to become sulfury. I would only use
them as a last resort, and would consider moving the barrel toward lambic
uses rather than using a sulfur stick.

Paul Gatza
Director--American Homebrewers Association
Director--Institute for Brewing Studies
Association of Brewers
736 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO 80302
ph: +1.303.447.0816 ext. 122
fax: +1.303.447.2825
www.beertown.org

- ---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 6/5/2003



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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:52:13 -0400
From: mohrstrom at core.com
Subject:  *** HBD SLAMDOWN! RESULTS ***

Had a great time (as usual) at the NHC.  Thanks to all of those who put 
so much effort into the event!  Sleep was at a premium, due in part to 
"someone's" challenge to a duel at dawn (Five - freaking' - Sixteen AM, 
dammit!) on Saturday.

Waited for my no-show opponent from 5:00 to 5:30, then back to the 
sack for a few additional Z's.  It was a beautiful morning, nonetheless...


Mark in Kalamazoo
"No ma'am, that's not a Glock in my pants.  It's just that you are SO 
beautiful in the dawn light ..."







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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:12:57 -0700
From: "Dave" <brewingisloving at hotmail.com>
Subject: Can the moderators do something about the OT posts?

Hello,

Is there a way that the moderators of HBD can put 
the political, religious, and other off-topic posts in
a separate, OT category?  I realize that the
discussion of these topics might be relevant, when 
they relate to homebrewing, but these discussions
are nearly always secondary to the discussions of
Making Beer (remember that?) and should, at least, 
be quarantined (even when posted by myself).

Cheers,

Dave



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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:12:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chad Holley <em2hurley at yahoo.com>
Subject: Chamomile in beer

I've got a question to throw out to the collective.  2
years ago I planted some chamomile in my garden.  It's
now taken over half my yard. Since there's only so
much tea I can drink, I'd like to make some good use
of the flowers.  Anyone ever try some in one of their
brews?  I was tossing the idea around of creating an
all grain chamomile Hefe.  comments?  Suggestions?

Chad Holley 
Grand Blanc, MI




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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:19:46 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Yeast washing...

Mike asked about Yeast washing...

"Is there a way to keep 'em alive for longer, by.. rejuvenating them
somehow, or is that not reccomended?"

I like the technique these guys (http://www.brewingscience.com/ click on
"Yeast Care") recommend.  It's also in the Sept/Oct 98 issue of the New
Brewer.  The Chlorine Dioxide wash isn't as hard to do as you might imagine,
and I think it's important if you're going to store longer term, that you
control brewery bacteria.  The chlorine dioxide wash is effective against
the nasties, but easy on the yeast.  The chlorine dioxide comes from sodium
chlorite, available from Birko as dioxy-chlor, or Five Star as Star-Xene.  

Essentially you take water acidified with lactic or citric acid, add sodium
chlorite to it, wait until the reaction completes (about a minute) and wash
the yeast with it.  Then you store the yeast at 34F/1C under fresh wort
(they suggest an ice bath in your cold room, if you don't have a special
"holding cell". Drain the old wort every couple weeks, and replace it with
fresh. (I suppose you could can a supply of yeast food).  According to these
guys, you can do this quite a long time, but warmer temps reduce storage
time.


On flat taxes for alcohol, the rules are indeed a bit weird.  A winery
client of mine occasionally made a Pinot Noir Vin Gris.  The grapes were
fantastic one year, and the wine finished at about 14.2% alcohol.  Since the
tax rate goes up at 14, and there wasn't much profit in the Vin Gris as it
was, they decided to keep the wine in oak for a while longer, until enough
alcohol evaporated out of the barrels.  They eventually bottled at 13.9%
(same wine, lower tax rate).  Silly law, but man-oh-man, what a great wine
that was!

Regards,
Mike Sharp
Kent, WA


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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:05:25 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Yeast washing / Neocon rants

Mike asks about storing washed yeast longer than a month.  This is anecdotal
evidence, Mike, so take it for what it's worth, but I've stored unwashed
yeast slurry in the refrigerator for 3 months, made a starter w/ it, and
pitched it - making what I thought was decent beer.

An easier method, I think, is to store a small amount of yeast slurry from
the secondary under fermented beer, in a beer bottle.  Of course, you have
to build up a starter from this small amount of yeast, but given the fairly
common practice of culturing yeast from commercial beers, it seems that
clean yeast survives a long time in bottles - at least in small amounts.  A
lot longer than the 1 month Wyeast suggests you store "washed" slurry in
water for.

Robin complains about neocon politics on the HBD, and mentions that he's
from the Great White North.  Robin, come on over to the dark side, the
Members of Barleyment mailing list, where we're planning the first
communist-themed brew festival. As sometime MoBster John Misrahi commented:
"Lucky Lenin Lager? Dostoyefski's Dusseldorf Alt? KGB Secret Stout? It would
be a glasnost of a good time, I'm sure."  ;-)

Seriously, any brewers in the Ottawa/Gatineau region are welcome to join the
MoB (as well as those in outlying regions such as Toronto or New Brunswick
seeking a "virtual" brew club).  We're not really communists.

Cheers!
Drew Avis ~ Ottawa, Ontario
http://www.strangebrew.ca


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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:44:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: brewinfo at xnet.com (BrewInfo)
Subject: Water Talk Viewgraphs Now Online

Pardon the interruption, but a large number of people have been asking
me when my 2003 AHA Conference lecture viewgraphs will be on my website.
Well, they are there now.  The talk was on Water... er, I mean it was
*about* Water.

The URL to the website is http://www.brewinfo.com.  Go down to Articles
and click on "Water Lecture."

Just to actually add some content to the HBD, I'd like to present something
interesting I ran across associated with my lecture.  I brewed a split
batch of a basic Special Bitter, which, thanks to the use of Challenger
hops, ended up tasting like an American Ale (although I'd say it wasn't
too bad a clone of Hopback Summer Lightning, I must say... which uses
those same hops, I'm told by Steve Hamburg).

Here's what I did... one mash, all Munton & Fison Maris Otter Pale Ale
malt, except for about 5% Briess 40L 2-row Crystal Malt.  Mashed-in with
DISTILLED WATER.  Mashed at 150F for an hour, sparged with 175F water
and ran off into HDPE jugs.  Siphoned half of the wort into my kettle,
brought to a boil, added 1.7 oz Challenger hops, boiled for an hour,
chilled to 70F.  Got 4 gallons of 1.050-ish wort (I have it written
down, but not here).  Siphoned the other half of the wort into the kettle,
added Burton Water Salts to bring the sulfate level up to 700ppm,
brought to a boil, added 1.7 oz Challenger hops (note: pellets in a
hop bag in both batches), boiled for an hour, etc.  Pitched half of
a White Labs American Ale yeast into each of the 4 gal batches (okay,
underpitching) after oxygenating with oxygen (what else?) for a 30
seconds per batch.  Fermentation took a bit longer than expected and
the yeast was just settling down when I had to serve it at my talk.

Note that I checked my pH on both batches and the mash and it was
in a reasonable range (again, in my notes, not here).
The distilled batch was bright at serving time (handpump, force
carbonated to 2.2 volumes), but the sulfate batch was still yeasty.
Everyone at the lecture tasted it, but it was in the very last moments
of the talk and it didn't get the attention it should, but the
few people who did comment on the difference, said that the *distilled*
batch was more bitter than the sulfate batch!  Nobody knew what
the difference was between the two batches except me.  The difference
was minor if any.  The yeast may have clouded (pun intended) the
results and I intend to have someone serve me the two beers blindly
someday soon, now that they are fully settled, and report back.

How could this be?  How could the 700 ppm of sulfate not have boosted
the bitterness significantly?  Could it be that there is a bitterness
upper threshold above which we don't percieve any additional bitterness?
Could the yeast have subdued the bitterness enough to make them taste
similar?  I'd say the beers tasted like they were about 30 IBUs.  They
were roughly the bitterness of a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, although a bit
more caramelly and slightly heavier bodied (maybe they were 1.053OG).

Could it be that sulfate boosting perceived bitterness is incorrect???

Note that initially, I tried to add perceived bitterness to Sierra
Nevada Pale Ale (my everyday commercial beer) by adding calcium
sulfate to the finished beer.  It was marginally, o so slightly, more
bitter, perhaps even imagined.

I think that this experiment should be repeated and I urge you all
to consider repeating it and reporting back.  I don't have time
to keep up with HBD, so I would appreciate you Cc'in me on any comments
you have regarding this post (or my Water Lecture) or your own
experimental results, at korz at brewinfo.com.

Switching back to Fatherhood Mode...

Al.

Al Korzonas
www.brewinfo.com


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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:32:10 EDT
From: Smallaxe27 at aol.com
Subject: Keg Balancing Question

I seem to recall having read in the Digest that one can use hose clamps on
beer serving line to provide the needed resistance. Is this so? I'd like to 
avoid 
using 6' of line in my little freezer if possible. I tried to find this 
thread by searching,
but to no avail. Thanks in advance. 

Steve G
Smallaxe Brewery   smallaxe27 at aol.com
Outside Philly  D*mned if I know the Rennerian


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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:01:16 -0500
From: "john w" <j2saret at hotpop.com>
Subject: Please repost

I may have been dreaming but I remember a recent post in the digest which
had a link to various classifications of yeast strains and the flavours they
imparted.  I did not save that digest or I conflated the
centrifuge yeast post with the Fix--flavour classifications post.  If I am
remembering a real post could someone please send me the link. After a
couple of days driving down dam roads thinking about yeast I am eager
to expand my knowledge.

Thanks
John S.
Duluth
"In America we've freedom that's true:
So I can huff smoke in anyone's face
and they can spit chaw on me too."
- --The Federalist Papers Vol XXI  no. XVII
(FACT CHECKED BY FAUX NEWS NET)





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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:14:57 -0700
From: David <jdlcr at flash.netdex.com>
Subject: Left turn

Dear HBD'rs
 Sorry I don't have anything to say about people who get yeast infections
while smoking after having too many beers per night that are made with dry
yeast in Australia.
 To move to other areas of brewing concern, I was wondering what might be
the story behind all the various brewery names many of you post out there.
Here is mine: BM Brewery, Cloverdale, CA. This started out as a joint effort
by me (Brandt) and a friend (Mills) in response to a brew starter kit I got
for Christmas from my wife. The first batch hooked us and we have brewed
near 100 batches since. Oh yeah, our catch phrase...BM Brewery...#2 To No
One!

Sorry...couldn't help myself,
David Brandt 


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