HOMEBREW Digest #4303 Tue 22 July 2003

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  Smoked malt strength (David Edge)
  RE: Kids and Beer ("Dennis Lewis")
  Child raising and alcohol access ("Joseph Gerteis")
  Re: Ma(x)imum Strength? ("Pete Calinski")
  re: Maximum Strength? ("-S")
  What is "hopfenbitter"? (David Harsh)
  Re: Alcohol Evaporation ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: Beer Culture ... ("-S")
  "Anheuser lager"? (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Maximum strength (AJ)
  Re;  "In memory yet green" ("Bill Frazier")
  Norse beer ("Edward D")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:56:01 +0100 From: David Edge <david.j.edge at ntlworld.com> Subject: Smoked malt strength There was a discussion of the strength of smoke in peated and rauch malts a week or two agoand I'm not sure we quite got to the bottom of it. According to Ray Daniels and Geoff Larson in "Smoked Beers", Bairds supply peated malts in the US at "strengths" of low (c5ppm), medium (c10ppm) and high (c16ppm) phenols. My memory is that Islay whiskies are made with somewhat peatier malts - Ardbeg 100ppm phenols and Laphroaig 80ppm. Phenol levels for rauch aren't quoted, but are believed to be lower than even the low phenol. I'll ask when I'm in Bamberg this week. It certainly pays to know exactly what you have in the grainstore and what the recipe assumes! David Edge Signalbox Brewery Derby, UK Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:56:33 -0400 From: "Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at ldc.cc> Subject: RE: Kids and Beer c.d. pritchard espouses (correctly, IMO): > I think kids raised observing their parents drink responsibly and drinking > themselves with parental guidance *TEND* to be have far fewer drinking > problems later in life. Why? 1) Some friends raised their 3 > kids with completely free access to beer and wine- was kinda shocking > at the time to see a 4 year old pull a beer from the fridge, drink a bit and > give the rest to their mom or dad. They've turned out to be fine adults. > 2) Several aquaintances who practiced exactly the opposite approach > (total prohibition for the kids and not drinking themselves- well, at least > in front of the kids ;-) had kids which had problems with alcohol when they > got free from their parents. I've been meaning to chime in on the kids and beer subject... First I have to say that I have three kids (7.5, 6, 1.5) and all girls. My goal is this: by the time they are 13-14 (not too far away :-( )and their friends are saying "look, I swiped some Bud Light! Let's pound!" my kids are going to think "I'm not drinking that crap. I get better stuff at home." I don't want them figuring out what alcohol is and how to drink by hanging out with a bunch of rookies and miscreants. Very frequently while I'm pouring one from the tap, my kids will ask for one. I have several small glasses from beer tastings that are full with only 3 or 4 ounces in them. I let them pick the style (more often than not it's the dark ones...) and give them the glass. I've rarely seen them finish it. They take a sip or three and then set it down. I don't miss the opportunity to tell them about it, where the style comes from, what it's made from, etc. ("There goes Dad again, jabbering on about beer...") I want them to think about it in more than the one dimension of alcohol. They "help" me brew, ask questions about it, and so on thru every process. The oldest is now big enough to run the capper, which is excellent for the 10 gal batches of Bavarian weissbier. These times are fantastic for exposing the kids to the entire process (chemistry, botany, physics, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, microbiology, mathematics, process control, personal safety, history, food science, physiology, etc.) I wonder if they'll want to do a batch for the 4th grade science fair? ;-) Dennis Lewis Warren, OH -- Home of the Little Brewer Training Facility Veni, Vidi, Bibi. I came, I saw, I drank. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:57:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph Gerteis" <joseph540 at elvis.com> Subject: Child raising and alcohol access CD Pritchard brought up the thread about childraising and alcohol access. I'm basically of the same opinion - -- if you want your kids to act responsibly with alcohol, model responsible behavior with alcohol. But CD's post jogged my memory about a really interesting case: college campuses, where binge drinking can of course be a problem. Several years ago, in the DARE heyday, most big campuses were trying a "scare 'em straight" approach, sponsoring posters and ads in the college papers about binge drinking statistics, accompanied by pictures of people puking in toilets, etc. The problem was that it didn't work! Studies showed that by seeing the statistics on binge drinking only -- e.g., "30% of students have 8 or more drinks per weekend night!!", students actually had a skewed picture in their heads. They thought that the "average" student drank much more, and much more irresponsibly, than they actually did. When some of the ivies switched to advertising the *average* numbers -- e.g., most students have fewer than 5 drinks per week, or 60% of students never drink more than 3 drinks in a single day," they saw the binge drinking levels drop. Most of the big schools now go with this approach. Joe Gerteis Minneapolis MN - ------------------------------------------------- Get your free at Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com! http://www.elvis.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:42:13 -0400 From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net> Subject: Re: Ma(x)imum Strength? A.J. deLange says, "Thesis confirmed - alcohol leaves concentrated water solutions very quickly." All the more reason to down that shot of Wild Turkey 101 as soon as it is poured. Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY *********************************************************** *My goal: * Go through life and never drink the same beer twice. * (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.) *********************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:22:00 -0400 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: re: Maximum Strength? AJ, Could you describe how you assayed ethanol levels so accurately ? I have performed some test fermentations which should (by Balling and similar formulae) come to 15-18%abv, but I've never attempted a particularly accurate assay of the alc level. There are numerous destinations for sugar carbons .... after creation of pyruvate these carbons can wind up as acetaldehyde, acetolactate, lactate,oxaloacetate, acetylCoA and numerous organic acids. Most of the acetaldehyde forms ethanol yet some forms ketones like diacetyl, a-ketobutyate and pentanedione. Some acetyl-CoA forms sterol, citrate and fatty acids. Ethanol can also disappear as ethyl acetate and alkyl esters of fatty acids. Some of the above is subsumed in the description "gets converted into yeast biomass", but I often wonder just how accurately the simple linear estimates of yeast assimilation of carbon from sugar are when brewing yeast are stressed in very high gravity ferments. One clearcut case of the above is glycerol. Glycerol appears in beer in relation to yeast growth. As yeast use pyruvate for biomass rather than energy they build up NADH and have to balance this excess by reducing dihydroxyacetone phosphate to glycerol phosphate and then glycerol. Conventional beers may have up to 2gm/L of glycerol. I have reports of high gravity beers (13.1-14.3%abv) containing 8-11gm /L of glycerol. In this case a lot of sugar ends up as glycerol. Another consideration is that not all of the sugar may have been anaerobically fermented, some (usually a tiny amount) is consumed by aerobic glycolysis which produces no ethanol. The amount lost this way might increase with additional aeration and aerobic pitching The ethanol itself can be aerobically catabolized by most common brewing yeasts. Yes - the yeast have every intention of consuming the ethanol in beer and only the elimination of air can prevent it. This may not be a small factor if air is permitted to access finished beer. I have several references that in commercial whisk[e]y distilling a wort is made with a reasonable gravity highly fermentable wort (SG=1.050-1.055, FG=0.998-1.000) and the entire fermentation period is 30 to 72 hours. The claim is made that longer fermentation times result in considerable losses of ethanol due to aerobic catabolism by yeast - resulting in around a 5% loss of ethanol in some unspecified time period. More questions than answers this time. -S(teve) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:23:06 -0400 From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net> Subject: What is "hopfenbitter"? Greetings- While traveling in Germany last month, I purchased a bottle of "Hopfenbitter" at a roadside stand outside of Tettnang. The lady running the stand told me it was used to produce a local beverage (I asked - not beer). The label says it is made from the authentic old family recipe and that it is 32% alcohol. Obviously, its a hop extract - but does anyone know how to make the "local beverage" that she was referring to? She didn't know. On a side note, the drought conditions around Tettnang are pretty bad right now. As of the solstice, the hop bines weren't even to the top of their supports in the fields. Whether that will affect the harvest or not at this point is anyones guess, but it was well into the 90s when we were there and it "never" gets that hot until maybe August according to the locals. Dave Harsh Bloatarian Brewing League Cincinnati, OH Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 08:22:52 -0700 From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Alcohol Evaporation A.J. deLange wondered if: 1) Has anyone else here had experiences which tend to confirm or deny my suspicion? I posted recently an anecdotal story about this, but I'll briefly repeat it here. A winery client made a Pinot Noir vin gris, and the grapes had very high sugars that year. It finished over 14% (the tax boundary), and so they left it in oak for a while until the alchohol dropped to 13.9%. I think alcohol evaporation is fairly well known in the wine industry. They keep the barrels topped up, and so the alcohol must escape through the pores in the oak...the process is much slower than what you described in your beaker test. I wish I could remember the exact time that the wine spent in the barrel to drop a given percent, but alas, I was more concerned with bottling lines at the time! Regards, Mike Sharp Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:52:48 -0400 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: Re: Beer Culture ... Alexandre Enkerli posts some very interesting trans-cultural musings on alcohol consumption patterns. >... alcohol problems in the MidWest was that young people there >don't know how to drink. Yes, it's extremely clear to me that here in the US the prohibitionist attitudes toward alcohol coupled with legal access at an age were peer influence rather than family influence dominates is a source of much of the late-adolescent excesses. As others have said it would be far better to teach children to drink moderately and sensible at home. Of course the same could be said of sex education and a myriad other set of taboo topics. I would like to point out Alexandre, that binge drinking is not a new American phenomena, but is ascribed to far northern Europeans some 18 centuries ago - modern Scandinavia, Denmark, UK, Ireland where drinking to excess was part of certain annual festivals. >In my mind, it goes with the fairly restrictive culture >that is prevalent in the region. That's a bit unfair to the MidWest as the same youth binge drinking issue appears across the US. This youth binge drinking appear to be a serious problem in other cultures such as Iceland. One of the Scandanvian countries (which ?) has a rather severe tax on alcohol and so there are regular binge drinking episodes by adults on cruises and out-of-country trips. Apparently treating adults or adolescents like children causes them to act accordingly. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 15:19:27 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: "Anheuser lager"? Brewers I'm back from California and catching up on email, and able to post email that doesn't look like this now. Not sure what was wrong with the comcast web browser email. Anyway, while strolling the Venice beach, I spotted a large sign on a building that said: Anheuser Lager Ten Brewmasters Four Continents One Beer With a large picture of a green bottle labeled "Anheuser Lager." It appeared to be a new sign. I've never heard of this beer, and a google search turned up only one broken link which was something about marketing "Anheuser lager and ale." Any idea what this beer might be? I assume it's an A/B product, but it's hard to imagine what they mean by "one beer." Is it a test market? The green bottle made me think they were looking for the import market. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:28:34 +0000 From: AJ <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: RE: Maximum strength In response to -S's comments I measure alcohol using the ASBC MOA (Beer 4a?) in which 100 mL of beer with 50 mL of rinse water (for the volumetric flask) is distilled and almost 100 mL distillate is collected (in the same flast). The distillate is made up to 100 mL and the specific gravity of the distillate is then measured in a U-tube density meter which incorporates the OIML tables which seem to agree with the ASBC tables in the range below 10% which is the upper limit of the ASBC tables but we're out of that range in this case anyway. Because the same volumetric flask is used bias in filling uncertainty is eliminated - IOW one only has to deal with the random error in setting the meniscus on the mark and it doesn't really matter whether the mark is at 100.1 or 100.0 mL. Nonetheless this random error is the largest contributor to the error budget (if I recall correctly). With respect to "yeast biomass" DeClerk points out that the 0.11 grams of yeast per 2.0665 (? memory again) grams sugar is an over estimate for lagers and an underestimate for ales and that the actual number may differ by as much as 50% from this. Lumping in the fact that ketones, acetic acid, vicinal diketones etc are all present at mg/L levels with this uncertainty there still isn't enough variation to explain the large discrepancy (9 P out of 43). And I guess I'm skeptical that it's the diauxic feature of yeast metabolism. Why would they start to munch alcohol when there was all that sugar around? I have a vague recollection that the brewing strains don't exhibit this behaviour but I may be thinking of something else. The 5% loss in whisky making is interesting though. Now what really catches my eye is the glycerol. That might be the answer (or part of the answer - I'm still convinced that evaporation has something to do with it). I always thought it interesting that the Germans converted their beer production facilities to the production of glycerine during WWI. They dosed the ferment with metabite rendering acetaldehyde unable to oxidize NADH. The modern way to assay for glycerine involves one of those little Boehringer-Manheim enzyme kits which are expensive, have to be shipped over night, be kept in the fridge, are only good for a few tests, have a short shelf life and (did I mention it?) are expensive. Maybe DeClerk has something on how it was done in his day. I wonder if I could con another bottle for a glycerine test? Good comments - thanks! A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 00:08:46 -0500 From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re; "In memory yet green" John discusses his Vienna beer that is changing in taste; "9-5-02, an uncomplex blonde beer slightly reminiscent of henikin." "9-10-02, strong hint of peaches. tastes sweet at" " 9/30/02, very faint taste of peaches in a smooth mild beer" "10/13/02 now a light ale with a nice creamy white head. has lost all of the fruty aftertaste" Back to me...I've seen quite a few HBD posts like this over the years. Indeed, I used to make fine tasting beers only to be disappointed with them shortly after priming and bottling. It was pointed out at the time the tastes that I did not like were most probably associated with yeast fermentation of the priming sugar. I believe this is valid. Now days I don't open a bottle conditioned beer until it's been in the bottle for one month. Then the flavor is relatively stable, especially if stored cold. Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:50:46 +0800 From: "Edward D" <edwardd at dodo.com.au> Subject: Norse beer Norse beer. I am looking for information on the types of beer that the ancient Norse drank. There is a themed party being planed for a few months from now. What should I be looking at in terms of alcohol color flavor hoping levels other spices used yeast character I need information both on ingredients to use and the desired final result. Information on the types of mead they made would also be appreciated. Edward Return to table of contents
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