HOMEBREW Digest #4326 Tue 19 August 2003

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  RE: Exploding CO2 Tanks, Really? ("Ronald La Borde")
  Re: Beer and Massive brain anurism. ("Dan McFeeley")
  The reason for the seemingly excessive oxygen requirements? ("Fredrik")
  St. Pat's no longer selling brewing ingredients (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: Room enough for 10 gallons? (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Exploding CO2 Tanks, Really? (Michael Hartsock)
  FW: St Pat's Discontinuing Brewing Ingredients ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  used commercial brewing equipment (Marc Sedam)
  Dr. Cone, 2003 - oxygen requirements (BrewInfo)
  Potato thread/Aneurysm ("Chad Stevens")
  Judges' Comments on Yukon Gold (val.dan.morey)
  1st Annual Hogtown Brew-Off (David Perez)
  Dr. Cone's Responses ("Rob Moline")

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The HBD Logo Store is now open! * * http://www.hbd.org/store.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * IN PROGRESS! * * * * * * * * * Dr. Clayton Cone Fortnight of Yeast * * 8/11/03 - 8/22/03 Yeast Questions Answered * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address for the automation - that's your job. HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit. More information is available by sending the word "info" to req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:42:11 -0500 From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net> Subject: RE: Exploding CO2 Tanks, Really? >From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> >Subject: Exploding CO2 Tanks, Really? > > I can add a further caveat...be sure your tanks are tested/inpected >as >required....damage to valves is not the only area of concern. > Doubters can be referred to Free State in Lawrence, KS., who >suffered >through the negligence of their gas/tank supplier to maintain >standards. A >steel tank had corroded through the bottom, and indeed became a >hazard >through it's subsequent propulsion through several layers of >ceiling/flooring above the tank storage area. OK, time for a little horror story, a true story. Until I recently retired I had been working at a Medical Center and had the occasional opportunity to see how the "professionals" handled the cylinders. Medical centers have O2, Nitrogen, CO2, and whatever else may be in the gumbo, so this will be a general observation. The sided flatbed truck arrives, the cylinders of all sizes, especially the tall ones, about 4-5 foot ones, were handled in this manner: The cylinder was tilted about 10 degrees from vertical by the human operator who held the cylinder with one hand at the top part. The top had some sort of bullet shaped cover screwed on. The operator then caused the cylinder to rotate about his hand as the cylinder spun from the back of the truck and slammed into the other cylinders loaded into the front of the truck. Bang, clang, bang, ring, but thankfully no HISS. P.S. I viewed this from some distance away!!!! Ron ===== Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA www.hbd.org/rlaborde Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:49:12 -0500 From: "Dan McFeeley" <mcfeeley at keynet.net> Subject: Re: Beer and Massive brain anurism. On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 Chad Stevens wrote: >Alcohol in moderation is a vaso-dilator reducing blood pressure. It is my >understanding that in heavy doses alcohol can become a vaso-constrictor. >His family is blaming the aneurysm on his binge three days before rather >than accepting the fact that diet/lifestyle is the chief culprit (and my >concern is that they will fall to much the same demise if they don't change >their eating habits). > >So my question is, could the alcohol have played some role in his having >an aneurysm when chronic high fat/cholesterol/salt intake is the obvious >culprit? Hello Chad -- sorry, late response. Let me insert the standard disclaimer here -- none of this is intended, or qualifies as medical advice. I'm not a medical doctor, at best an emergency room psychiatric intake worker. It's hard to say what role, if any, the use of alcohol might have played on the aneurysm giving way. I'm assuming that an individual with a poor diet, high blood pressure, was also fairly heavy. Five beers would put a person of average weight at about the legal limit for most states, but a heavier person would have a blood alcohol level less than that. That would suggest that any vasoconstrictive effects of the alcohol would have been minimal. As another poster already pointed out, the aneurysm ruptured three days afterwards, so that would also suggest that the binge could likely be ruled out as the cause. An aneurysm is a weakened area of a blood vessel that dilates or balloons outward. It's easily visible, that is, if its presence is suspected and the proper tests have been conducted. A ruptured aneurysm that massive, virtually displacing one hemisphere of the brain with blood as you described, was already there, long before the "binge". It was certainly a product of lifestyle & diet, and family history of cardiac disease also has to be taken into account. With a constant blood pressure of 240/200 and above, as you also described, it's amazing the aneurysm hadn't ruptured sooner. With or without the alcohol, it was going to rupture at some point, especially with a high blood pressure constantly beating on it. I've seen instances where an aneurysm will rupture, resulting in death, where there had been no immediate precipitant. It was simply old, tired, overly weakened through time, and finally decided to let itself go. Yes, alcohol at high blood concentration levels can exert a hypertensive effect, but that's really very difficult to assess without knowing your father-in-law's weight, or blood alcohol level at the time. At a time of sudden shock and loss, family member reactions are going to be emotional, not rational. Reasoned or logically oriented responses don't work well here. It's best to limit personal responses to the use of alcohol to a simple "I don't think I agree with that," at the very best, and no more. What will help the family most is to get to the point where they can celebrate a long life, and what your father-in-law meant to everyone. Hope this is helpful! <><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><> Dan McFeeley Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:28:59 +0200 From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com> Subject: The reason for the seemingly excessive oxygen requirements? Hello everyone! I'm new to posting to this list even though I've subscribed for some time. I've been at Brews & views and the guys at there said there were alot of fermentation experts on this list. And also at the same time I found out that Dr.Cone was going to be here, so I thought I'd try submit some posts. After all the excellent posts lately on this list I started thining again about the oxygen requirement for sterol synthesis. I have always thought, with other peoples experience supporting it that the more oxygen you supply the better biomass yield will you get (I still think so). But I've also though that the reason is that the wort gets depleted of oxygen pretty quick. But this morning I tried to roughly estimate the need for oxygen and found that it doesn't take alot. Can someone help me to understand what is really happening? Here's what I assumed Biomass(dry) is about 1% sterols (according to George Fix) For simplicity I assume sterols = 100% ergosterol squalene contains 0% oxygen ergosterol contains 4% oxygen Without checking the mechanism for the sq -> erg, assuming no oxygen is waste for other stuff it seems the O2 requirements for new healthy biomass is 0.04% Assuming 100% utilzation this indicated that a biomass yield of 10% on a 10 plato wort would take no more than an initial oxygen level of about 3-4 ppm. As this seems contradictory I am now confused? I am thinking that either 1) maybe there are other processes competing for the oxygen? If so which onces? I've assumed that nonenzymatic reactions are not relevant in the timeframe considered here, like in a starter, what do you think? 2) The rate of oxygen uptake is the limiting factor rather than the absolute depletion of oxygen. Due to the diffusion kinetics and the rate of requirements of oxygen due to budding, there may be a treshold of DO where there sterol levels are constant. 3) there is a waste of oxygen in the synthesis of ergosterol? What is the proper way to resolve this confusion? If the wort gets really really depleted of oxygen (=0 ppm), whayt the heck is the oxygen used for? :). It seems from my crude estimations that it can't all go into sterol synthesis? Are my estimates flawed? What did I miss? help! /Fredrik Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:35:16 -0400 From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us> Subject: St. Pat's no longer selling brewing ingredients I received an e-newsletter that St. Pat's will no longer be selling brewing ingredients after they use up their inventory, although they will still be selling brewing equipment. Although St. Pat's was too far away for me to order from (shipping charges would have killed me) I'm concerned that another business is ( I assume ) finding it unprofitable to deal in malt, hops, etc., especially a seemingly well-run one like St. Pat's. I wonder if their "H" strains will continue to be available through Wyeast? Lynn, are you out there? What happened? Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:34:57 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Room enough for 10 gallons? Nate Hall <hallzoo at comcast.net> asks: >Is it possible to ferment 10 gallons in a 12.2 gal TMS conical without >blowoff? I want to brew a 10 gal ale using WL California Ale yeast (in a 1 >gallon starter). I haven't yet sealed the lid and made arrangements for a >blowoff setup. What would you think is the maximum volume you can ferment >without worrying about blowoff? Thanks for the help! I don't have a conical fermenter, but I think your answer might be anti-foam (can't remember its actual name). This should allow you to use nearly all of your fermenter's nominal capacity. >I hope that those of you >on in the Northeast U.S. get your power back soon! Only lost power here west of Ann Arbor for a little less than 24 hours. I did lose 1-1/2 day's bread production. Just a glimpse of the overall economic loss. I had 20 baguettes I couldn't deliver (and 20 more in the oven that were lost), so I just went up and down our short street and gave them away to neighbors. Glad I wasn't brewing! Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:57:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Exploding CO2 Tanks, Really? For the record, I meant "explode" in the flames and fire manner. In the sense that something might explode as opposed to implode, yes, CO2 tanks can explode. Michael - --- -S <-s at adelphia.net> wrote: > Michael Hartsock wriets ... > > > The CO2 tanks are not capable of exploding. > > I doubt that. As someone (Dave Burley?) noted > aluminum > is briittle, less maleable and certainly can > fracture and > throw shrapnel. Unlikely but possible. > > Still the most likely failure is just a crack that > would create a rocket or more likely a dangerous > 'spinner'. > > >[...] you > >risk having a 1000+ psi steel or aluminum rocket > fired > >[...] > > I love/hate to quibble, but CO2 liquifies at 880psig > at > room temp. No way you'll see 1000+psi in the CO2 > cylinder head space. Tho' that's still plenty > dangerous it's > well below the pressures available w/ H, He, N & O . > > -S > > > ===== "May those who love us, love us. And those that don't love us, May God turn their hearts. And if he doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles So we'll know them by their limping." Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:21:58 -0700 From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com> Subject: FW: St Pat's Discontinuing Brewing Ingredients [in case this isn't common knowledge already, from St Pat's website www.stpats.com] Discontinuing Brewing Ingredients We will discontinue all brewing ingredients including malt, extract, hops and yeast. I expect the current inventory to last until November (2 container of malt have not even arrived yet and a container of malt extract just arrived.) We will continue to stock reorder yeast until the malt and grain run out. This decision was most difficult because our roots are in brewing and many of the ingredients we sell are unique in North America, not to mention homebrewing ingredients are still a very significant portion of our sales and are still growing. However, I need space, time and energy to continue to expand the business in other directions. We will continue to sell brewing equipment to both homebrewers and commercial breweries and in fact will be adding products to this line. We will continue to offer the CellarCraft Wine kits and yeast and chemicals for winemaking. St. Pats grew dramatically during the boom of homebrewing in the early 90's, followed by modest annual double digit growth through the late 90's when the industry declined dramatically. Our most significant period of growth began in early 2000 and by early 2001 we moved to make changes to accomodate the growth and also to control it. These include the new warehouse including mezzanine level, UPS/St. Pats software integration (special thanks to Paul and UPS), 80' of packaging conveyor, 2 more work stations, two more internet terminals, commercial palletizing and handling equipment, and online freight calculator. In addition we curtailed walk-in hours, instituted minimum orders, and eliminated US Postal shipping due to the inefficiency of postal (international, AFO, and FPO postal orders require considerable paperwork and delivery to the post office). We systematically eliminated all but one brewing ad a couple of years ago in an attempt to control growth. More recently, we eliminated many profitable products (honey, agave, soda and liqueur extracts, many chemicals, some grains, amber and dark extract, many home bar supplies) in order to focus on our core business. We increased minimum quantities of some products to enhance efficiency. And now we will drop all brewing ingredients. We are deeply appreciative for the support of our customers and regret any inconvenience these changes may cause. Nils Hedglin Sacramento, CA [1978.7, 275.3] Apparent Rennerian In Heaven there is no beer, that's why we drink it here, And when we're gone from here, our friends will be drinking all the beer. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:04:16 -0400 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: used commercial brewing equipment Hey all, I know there are a few good sources for used commercial brewing equipment, but I've lost the websites. Anyone know of good sites? Looking for >30bbl systems. -Marc - -- Marc Sedam Associate Director Office of Technology Development The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-4105 919.966.3929 (phone) 919.962.0646 (fax) OTD site : http://www.research.unc.edu/otd Monthly Seminar Info: http://www.research.unc.edu/otd/seminar/ Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:22:20 -0500 (CDT) From: brewinfo at xnet.com (BrewInfo) Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003 - oxygen requirements Dr. Cone, Thank you for taking the time to answer all our questions. I'm following up not on my own questions, but on one from another HBD member. In a response about oxygen requirements, you said >I do not know how you will be able to control the rate of sterol production >or the total amount. Yeast can produce the precursor squalene with no >oxygen, then with very little oxygen, 10 - 15 ppm, it can move squalene up >to sterol. In Homebrew Digest #1446, the immortal Dr. Fix reported results from some tests he performed using oxygen and verified that the dissolved oxygen levels (unless held artificially high with constant oxygenation) are strongly dependent on the specific gravity of the wort and the levels are quite a bit lower than the ones you have said various yeasts require for a healthy ferment: SG 54.4F (12.5C) 59F (15C) 68F (20C) 1.030 (7.5P) 8.1ppm 7.5ppm 6.5ppm 1.040 (10P) 7.7ppm 7.1ppm 6.2ppm 1.060 (15P) 6.9ppm 6.3ppm 5.6ppm 1.080 (20P) 5.7ppm 5.5ppm 5.0ppm Are you suggesting that we need to artificially keep our oxygen levels above the normal solubility for proper yeast growth, or is there such a big gap between theory and practice? In another answer you said that some wineries will add oxygen near the end of fermentation to restart a stuck ferment when there was insufficient oxygen at the beginning of the ferment. Shouldn't that include a caveat that adding oxygen in the middle or end of a ferment is at the expense of shelf life and will result in an increased amount of aldehydes in the finished beer/wine. Also, although not unwelcome in an ale, increased oxygen means increased oxidation of alpha-acetolactic acid to diacetyl. I have had some bottles of Samuel Smith's beers that had excessive diacetyl, even for an ale. Samuel Smith's uses pumps to get their highly flocculent yeast back into suspension and although their fermentation room relatively quickly fills up with CO2, anytime there are humans in there, they run fans to evacuate the CO2 and replace it with air, so some oxidation is inevitable (excessive, I suggest, on some batches). Thank you again. Al. Al Korzonas Homer Glen, IL www.brewinfo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:38:19 -0700 From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net> Subject: Potato thread/Aneurysm Subject: Potato thread/Aneurysm With regard to waxy potatoes and silky beer, just a little expansion on the subject for the uninitiated.... There are two types of starch: amylose and amylopectin. Amylose is a linear structure and readily fermentable. Amylopectin is a globular/branched structure and takes a little more work to gelatinize and hydrolyze. For a better description read: http://www.msstate.edu/org/fsfa/Vol1/4-1-waniska.htm There are two major types of potato: baking and boiling. Russets or Idahos are for baking and are relatively high in amylose. Reds and whites are for boiling and are relatively high in amylopectin. It is amylopectin which is desired for silkiness. Read this link for additional info: http://www.ochef.com/167.htm Tapioca is also high in amylopectin and should provide a similar result. Just remember, to properly gelatinize amylopectin, boil long-boil hard. Chad Stevens QUAFF San Diego P.S. I'm not sure how, or I didn't intend to give the impression that, my Father-in-law died. In fact, he is making a remarkable recovery. It's been nine days now and he is regaining some sensation on his left side and has fed himself. Thanks for all the input, support, and the reminder that we are not merely beer drinkers, homebrewers are family. Thanks. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:34:05 -0500 From: val.dan.morey at juno.com Subject: Judges' Comments on Yukon Gold Nathan is correct, red potatoes are waxy and Yukon golds are more of a starchy variety similar to Russet. In my previous email I ignored the oil/wax content since the Yukon gold beer was also silky. Since I used 67% more potatoes in Yukon gold, it is likely that a similar amount of wax was extracted. Good point Nathan. As for the judges comments there were not anything negative that I can attribute to potatoes. It was entered as a CAPs. Below is the feedback I received: Aroma: judge 1: 9 points - Grainy, good and clean. Good hop nose. Kind of light. judge 2: 8 points - Clean, a little grainy, good for style. Good hop aroma but could be stronger. Appearance: judge 1: 1 point - Good color, a little hazy (from foaming at opening), head dissipated quickly. judge 2: 1 point - Bottle was bright clear but when opened the bottom of the bottle stirred up leaving the appearance of cloudiness in the glass. Head was a little flat. Flavor: judge 1: 8 points - Where did the hops go? Not enough bitterness (there but not strong enough). Hops lacking other flavors good. Unbalanced. judge 2: 12 points - Nice grainy flavor and sweetness. Balance malt and corn flavor nicely. Some hop bitterness is there but a little more would be ok. Hop flavor should be raised. Mouthfeel: judge 1: 3 points - Good carbonation judge 2: 3 points - Medium body. ok carbonation on the tongue. Overall Impression: judge 1: 7 points - Right stuff, wrong quantities. Need more hops. Not bad beer needs more balance. malts are good. Needs hop balance. judge 2: 5 points - An ok beer. The grain profile was nice for this beer. The aroma started ok but the hop character is a little low for the style. Raise the hops and a little more cold conditioning would bump this beer up to the next level. I only bottled two bottles for the competition and rest was kegged. Obviously they were over carbonated. I suspect that the high carbonation masked hop flavor and bitterness. The keg version, was right on in my opinion using Jeff's CAP as my reference. Also the yeast was disturbed causing a hazy appearance. If the carbonation was correct, I suspect the score would have been 33 to 34 instead of 29. Perhaps the only negative that could be contributed to potatoes would be "flat head" due to the waxes/oils they contribute. The score sheet also points to one of the most common judging errors, assuming something about the beer. There was no corn, but one judge commented on the good malt corn balance. Cheers, Dan Morey Club B.A.B.B.L.E. http://hbd.org/babble/ Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:08:30 -0400 From: David Perez <perez at gator.net> Subject: 1st Annual Hogtown Brew-Off The competition you have been waiting for is finally here! The Hogtown Brewers, in Gainesville Florida, are proud to announce the 1st Annual Hogtown Brew-Off, on October 11, 2003. We will be holding this incredible judging event at the luxurious Market Street Pub (ok, its just a nice Pub, but go with flow here, alright). Along with the judging activities we will also feature an amazing One Pub, Pub Crawl as well as a spectacular Hog Roast to cap off the festivities. All hyperbole aside (well maybe not quite all), please help the new competition on the block by sending ten or so entries (3 bottles each of course) to what we hope will become one of the premier competitions on the Florida circuit. We will be accepting entries for all 26 BJCP categories beginning September 15 and ending October 3. Get your entries in early and get em in often. For more information please go to http://www.hbd.org/hogtown/ Dave Perez, Hogtown Brew-Off Organizer Hogtown Brewers Gainesville, Fl Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:40:43 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr. Cone's Responses Dr. Cone's Responses Having crafted concise commentary regarding conversation with Dr. Cone last week, where he let it be known that some questions would take longer, as opinions vary, and the latest research deserves consideration... And having pulled that post.....as the sheer depth of quality of the incoming responses from Dr. Cone could only negate any complaint regarding quantity.... I must state that many questions may take longer still, as Dr. Cone is currently dealing with an unexpected family event. I know I speak for the entire HBD when I offer our condolences. Rob Moline - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.509 / Virus Database: 306 - Release Date: 8/12/2003 Return to table of contents
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