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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Maltiness In Beers ("Phil Yates")
  re: A couple of questions... (R.A.)" <rbarrett@ford.com>
  The elusive maltiness (Jim Busch)
  Re: A couple of questions... (Travis Dahl KE4VYZ)
  berliner weiss (Marc Sedam)
  Disruption in the Force coming... (Pat Babcock)
  Egg Nog recipe (Jeff Renner)
  Cleaning Fermenters ("Lee and Ant Hayes")
  Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists HBC ("John C.Tull")
  Re: A couple of questions ("Gary Smith")
  Cleaning Stainless Steel ("Eric Schoville")
  RE: How to make a Berliner Weisse... ("Doug Hurst")
  RIMS Controller ("David Houseman")
  Re: Berliner Weisse (Robert Sandefer)
  Sweet Gale, Paradise seed... And a Lager question (jOsh tAusCheK)


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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:54:37 +1100
From: "Phil Yates" <phil.yates at bigpond.com>
Subject: Maltiness In Beers

Hello To All,
Sorry to be a bit late chiming in on the recent post by Fred Johnson about
the influence of yeast on the maltiness of a beer. Going back some years, I
was puzzled by how any sweetness was left in a beer after fermentation. It
was my understanding that higher sugars (which are not fermentable) were in
fact tasteless and contributed only to body or mouthfeel in a beer. If this
was the case, and given that the simpler sugars are all fermentable, how did
a beer end up with any sweetness at all?

I asked this question of Andy Walsh, who at the time was probably
Australia's version of Steve Alexander with regard to scientific knowledge
on brewing. Andy and I used to toss a lot of stuff around over a beer or
three or four (maybe more like three or four hundred) and the frustrating
thing was that the following day, I could never remember any of Andy's
answers. Well for that matter, I wasn't sure if Andy had actually given any
answers at all. He would sit there looking like a stunned mullet, and later
would be found fast asleep with his head down in a beer. I'm sure we solved
a lot of brewing questions in those days but I'm blowed if I can remember
any of them.

Andy doesn't brew any more, or drink beer (so I'm told) but I still champion
the cause. So before I fall asleep in my beer, can I again ask the question?
What sugars give sweetness to a beer in a fully attenuated brew?

Cheers
Phil
(Disgraced Baron Of Burradoo)



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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:59:09 -0500
From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
Subject: re: A couple of questions...

Chris Keenan asks:
1. is this a porter?

Sounds like one to me.  Porters are usually black with coffee like
or chocolate like roasty dry flavor.  If you want it to be a porter
then call it a porter.  You can find guidelines on all beer styles at
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/slack/bjcp/index.html.  Just remember
that these are only guidelines, but they do give you an idea of the
aromas and flavors different styles can have.

      2.  How long can it sit in the secondary fermenter before it NEEDS to
be
      bottled?  I cannot bottle it for a couple of days and it may run over
a
      couple of weeks.

      As long as you have racked the beer off the trub from the primary, it 
      can stay in the secondary for months before it needs to be bottled.
      Just make sure to maintain the air lock during the time it is in the 
      secondary.

3. How do people feel about a kegging system.

I feel good about kegging.  It saves time and gives you more control 
over the carbonation level.  Once you start kegging you will never 
go back to bottling.  If you are serious about homebrewing, the money
you will spend on a kegging system will be insignificant in the long 
run.  I'm an accountant too.  Spend the money!!!!!

Chris, let me add one thing that helps us all as we read and ask
questions on the HBD.  Please include your location with your 
posts.  There may be a homebrewer very close to you or maybe
right next door that could be a world of help as you advance down
the road to great beer experiences.

We make the beer we drink!!
Bob Barrett
Ann Arbor, MI
(2.8, 103.6) Rennerian
Hope to see the master at the AABG meeting this Friday.
Pat, what about you??  Will you be there too???  Come on, it's at Rolf's and
it's the last meeting of the year!!!!!  Bring Kim too!!!!


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Date: Wed, Dec 10 2003 9:21:49 GMT-0500
From: Jim Busch <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: The elusive maltiness

I think this subject is complex and the direct
result of everything you do in recipe formulation,
ingredient selection and handling, mashing, boiling,
fermenting and conditioning.  In sum, everything you
do to make beer results in the final flavors and much
of this is due to attenuation, good practices such as 
minimal oxygen pickup at critical times, and proper
yeast health and selection.  Fresh, quality malts,
proper mashing programs that yield about 80% ADA,
proper low hopping rates to accenuate maltiness and 
of course proper yeast selection, pitching rate
and fermentation.

When all of this comes together it is a direct result
of the brewers art and reflects the understanding and
skill of the brewmaster.  Its a truley amazing thing
that such simple mix of ingredients can result in 
such a wonderful beverage!

Prost!

Jim Busch



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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:03:10 -0500
From: Travis Dahl KE4VYZ <dahlt at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: A couple of questions...

At 12:37 AM 12/10/03, you wrote:
>The second question has to do with the third batch that is sitting in my
>basement now in the glass carboy for secondary fermentation (the second
>batch of Christmas Ale got infected with a nasty smell and had to be offered
>up to my lawn and trees for the smell almost killed some small children).
>How long can it sit in the secondary fermenter before it NEEDS to be
>bottled?  I cannot bottle it for a couple of days and it may run over a
>couple of weeks.

While I really wouldn't recommend leaving most beers in secondary for more 
than a week or two, I have to admit that I often don't get around to 
bottling for a month or more.  I'm pretty confident that any issues that my 
beer has are more to do with other aspects of my brewing.  Also, as some 
may point out, you've already racked it off most of the trub and a lot of 
the dead yeast, which tend to be the real issues with extended fermentations.

>The third and final question is this.  How do people feel about a kegging
>system.  I am going back and forth on it.  At one moment I want to get it to
>make life easier, but the other half is not sure about spending the money (I
>am an accountant by trade).  Can I get some advice here.

I have yet to hear someone say that they wished they _hadn't_ bought their 
kegging setup!  (Anybody out there that can say this?  I'd be very curious 
to hear your reasons.)  I'm having this debate too, but I suspect when I 
get some money together in the next year or so, I'll probably do it.

Anyway, hope this helps.


Travis Dahl
[1.8, 98.3] Apparent Rennerian
A.K.A. A2, MI  




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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:36:29 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: berliner weiss

Search the archives for Berliner Weiss and you'll find lots of guidelines.

But the Reader's Digest version is thus:

1)  Best to innoculate with L. delbruckii to ensure you get sourness and 
not much else.  If you can't get L. delbruckii in the land of Oz, then 
your next best bet is to take a portion of your wort (1 gal?) and toss a 
handful of cracked grain in it.  It will sour...it will get funky...you 
will consider tossing it.  Take the pellicle off the top, decant off the 
grain, and boil for 20 mins.  Add this back to your regularly fermenting 
beer.  From experience I can tell you NOT to sour your whole batch.  Not 
that it can't work, but the odds of it working are a lot lower.

2)  Yeast.  I'd recommend fermenting out with a neutral ale yeast.  Dry 
yeast is fine.  For liquid yeast go for an altbier or koelsch yeast.  If 
you feel like a wacky German you could use Wyeast 3333, which gives a 
bit of a tart/sour bite to the beer.  Don't do anything phenolic unless 
you're experimenting.

3)  Many traditional grists are 50% barley and 50% malted wheat.  Use 
whatever percentage makes you happy, but use malted wheat.

4)  The archives can tell you whatever else you need.  I make this style 
frequently and really enjoy it.  My next one will involve splitting the 
batch in two and fermenting five gallons ONLY with L. delbruckii and 
five gallons ONLY with an alt yeast.  The lactobacillus culture will 
eventually die (they don't live long under the environment they produce) 
and you can blend the beers without worrying about infecting your entire 
system.

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:35:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Disruption in the Force coming...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

As some know, when Kim and I had Kid #5, we decided it was time
to expand our home to accommodate our large family. This has
been in progress for some time (especially when you consider
that we signed the contract in June, and Bobson COnstruction
tore the first shingle off the roof to start the job in
October...), and we are near the time when they'll be wanting to
monkey with the electrical system. This means that the HBD will
necessarily be unnavailable for a period of time whilst they
perform this work. As many who have undertaken such a project
can attest: you cannot predict when this will happen. I cannot
even predict when worker will be on site (another failing of
this process: show up at noon, work til three, don't show up
again for a week...)

In any case: be warned. The HBD will be unavailable for a period
of time this week or next. I cannot tell you when or for how
long. That would require a crystal ball...

That will be all.

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:33:08 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Egg Nog recipe

It's been suggested that it's time to repost my father's egg nog 
recipe.  I posted it three years ago, and got a great response.  I 
reposted it last year with a little additional history that I was 
pleased to find out.  Hope this will become part of your holiday 
tradition as it is ours.

BTW, I notice in rereading this that I have impugned Old Forester 
bourbon.  It is a fine, old-fashioned bourbon that I like, and it 
works fine in this recipe.

Jeff

==============


My father was not a big drinker or a cook, but he was famous among 
friends and family for his egg nog.  It had a kick.  It was an old 
recipe that he modified (probably increased the booze!) from one in a 
magazine ad for Four Roses Blended Bourbon in the 1930's or 40's. 
Straight bourbon is much to be preferred.

Last evening I took a double batch to a potluck party. I made a 
further modification - an inadvertent, serendipitous mistake, that 
made it much better as a casual drinking egg nog.  I used twice the 
proper amount of half and half (resulting in proportionally half the 
eggs, sugar and liquor). Strangely, it seemed still to be well 
balanced. The original one is twice as strong and is a wonderful 
drink, but the flavor of the liquor is more evident and it must be 
drunk with more caution.  More like a cocktail, I guess.  I like them 
both, but I think that the milder one is better suited to casual 
drinking, especially by people who don't like the full flavor of 
whiskey.  And they are both easy enough to make that you'll never buy 
that horrible stuff from the grocery store again.


Harry Renner's Egg Nog

6 eggs, separated
3/4 cup sugar (set aside 1/4 cup)
1 qt. cereal milk [half and half, or one pint each milk and whipping cream]
1 cup straight bourbon
2 oz. Jamaican dark rum

Beat egg whites until stiff, fold or beat in 1/4 cup sugar.  Set 
aside.  Beat egg yolks with 1/2 cup sugar, fold into egg white mix. 
Add cereal milk, bourbon and rum.  Serve topped with grated nutmeg.

The mistake I made was to use a *quart* each of skim milk and 
whipping cream (actually I made a double batch; or was it a 
quadruple?).

Dad always used Myer's rum and Old Forester bourbon, but if you are 
making it full strength and will be able to taste the liquor, better 
bourbon will make a difference.  Two years ago we used Knob Creek 
(~$25) and the difference was remarkable.  Jim Beam Black Label 
(~$15) or Wild Turkey 101 (~$18) would be two other, less expensive, 
but still somewhat premium choices.  Of course, these three are 
higher proof, so drink accordingly.  I suspect there are better 
choices than Myer's rum, too, but it has served us well.

And now an amusing anecdote for your holiday enjoyment:

Scene: a streetcar in Cincinnati, circa 1950.
Characters:  Little four-year-old Jeff and his grandma, returning 
from downtown Christmas shopping, and other passengers.

Jeff, in a loud voice:  "Grandma, don't forget you said that you 
needed to stop and get rummy for the egg noggin!"

Grandma and passengers laugh.

Jeff feels very embarrassed and the memory is seared in his brain, 
even though no one else remembers.

Happy holidays!

Jeff

=================

Among the people I sent it to was Gary Regan, author of a number of 
fine books on whiskies and cocktails ( http://www.ardentspirits.com). 
He sent me this email:

Hi Jeff:

I wrote to Dale DeGroff, and sure enough, the original recipe came 
from a relative of his!  Here's what he wrote back:

Hi Gary,

The recipe that Jeff's dad adapted from the Four Roses ad was My 
Grandmother's brother's recipe. He submitted the recipe to them in 
some kind of contest and  the four Roses Pr people or who ever 
handled the advertising in those days sent a release for him to sign 
for its use on the bottle and in ads. His name was Dominic 
Gencarelli, he owned a Granite quarry in Rhode Island among other 
things. He was an engineer and figured out a way to build stone 
jettys into the ocean without renting barges and tugboats. His 
Italian stone cutters cut the stone in the quarry in such a way that 
on side the stone was flat and the trucks could drive out on the 
jetty as it was being built. he built a lot of the jettys along the 
east coast especially in New England, but some here on Long Island as 
well.

He always had two bowls of the punch at Christmas , one for the kids 
and one for the grown-ups...here is the recipe., and incidently what 
made the recipe special was its lightness twice as much milk as cream 
and the white of the egg whipped stiff and folded in to the mix , so 
it was almost like clouds on top of the egg nog;

EGG NOG (Uncle Angelo's) 1 batch (6 people)
6 eggs (separated)
1 qt. milk
1 pint cream
1 tbsp. ground nutmeg
3/4 cup sugar
3 oz. bourbon
3 oz. spice rum

Beat egg yolks well until they turn light in color, adding half a cup 
of sugar as you beat. Add milk, cream and liquor to finished yolks. 
Then beat egg whites until they peak. Fold whites into mixture. Grate 
fresh nutmeg over drink.

Cheers
Dale DeGroff
aka " http://www.kingcocktail.com/index.html" King Cocktail

==========

And then a final note from HBD after my posting of this recipe last year:

Subject: Re: Raw Eggs and Salmonella

Brewers

A self described HBD lurker wrote me privately regarding my egg nog recipe:

>Aren't you running a risk of salmonella poisoning with the use of
>raw eggs? In the past, this may not have been an issue but I believe
>it is one today.
>
>Having come very close to losing a daughter during the salmonella
>outbreak in Chicago 17 years ago, I freely admit to being paranoid
>about the risk.

Thanks for pointing this out.  As a parent, I can only imagine how 
that would affect your feelings.

I continue to use raw eggs in egg nog (and eat sunny egg yolks when I 
occasionally eat fried eggs).  I have based my evaluation of risk on 
Mark Bittman's wonderful newish (1998) cookbook, "How to Cook 
Everything" (winner of multiple cookbook writing awards):

"As for salmonella and eggs: Recent statistics indicate that a small 
number of eggs (about one in ten thousand, or fewer) may contain the 
salmonella bacteria.  If this bacteria multiplies - unlikely in 
refrigerated uncracked eggs - and you eat the egg raw (as you would 
in mayonnaise) or undercooked (as you would in many eggs cooked for 
breakfast), you might become ill, suffering intestinal problems that 
are as bad as the flu.  The very young, very old, or those with 
compromised immune systems may have even worse problems and should 
avoid recipes with raw or undercooked eggs.  But the general 
population should consider eggs safe, and eat them without fear, 
especially if they have been handled properly."

The government, of course, takes the very cautious approach 
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/salment_g.htm, but notes 
that the risk is highest (1 in 10,000) in the northeast.

For less cautious view see http://www.mercola.com/2002/nov/13/eggs.htm.

Happy holidays.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:57:13 +0200
From: "Lee and Ant Hayes" <anleo at worldonline.co.za>
Subject: Cleaning Fermenters

I went through an 18 month phenol period before accepting that my fermentor
cleaning technique was faulty.

My fermentor is a stainless CCV. It was polished, before being welded in an
inert environment. You cannot get a hand inside of it - by design.
Cleaning is difficult.

My solution has been to have a sprayball made. I pump hot (80C) caustic
through the sprayball for 30 minutes at high pressure.
I then run two cold water cycles for 5 minutes each, followed by a 2 pH
phosphoric acid and water cycle, followed by a water cycle.
It is relatively effortless, and my phenols are gone.

You can see photos of my parts at:
http://www.geocities.com/anthayes/glenbrewery.html

Jeremy Wallis, an Africanised Cornishman, is of the view that homebrewers
should get as close to the equipment used by commercial brewers as budget
will allow. I have never been disappointed following his advice.

Ant Hayes
Gauteng

Apologies but PS Politics: All American politics appears conservative to
me - preservation of privilege at the expense of weaker nations. But -
brewing is a benevolent act  - we make far more than we can drink alone. The
brewers that I have met and with whom I have corresponded are tolerant
people with big hearts, who share secrets, and take the time to teach new
guys how to do things. American homebrewers have done great deeds, not only
for themselves, but also for other brewers throughout the world. These
individuals know who they are, and there are many homes throughout the world
where they would be welcomed and treated as honoured guests. By and large
they do not term themselves "conservative".



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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:29:09 -0800
From: "John C.Tull" <johnctull at fastmail.fm>
Subject: Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists HBC

I want to invite the members of this list to participate in the 2004 
Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists Hombrew Competition here in Reno, NV. We will 
be judging Sunday 29 February 2004, with entries due from 7-21 February 
2004. Last year we had over 100 entries, and the BOS winner brewed 
their beer at the Great Basin Brewing Company. I am working on similar 
arrangements for our BOS winner this year as well.

If you would like to enter your homebrew, or volunteer to steward or 
judge, or for more information, please visit our competition web page 
for all the details, and for online registration. Email me if you have 
any questions.

http://134.197.55.114/wzz/wzz-comp2004.html

Cheers,
John C. Tull



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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:06:41 -0600
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: A couple of questions

On 10 Dec 2003 at 14:03, post at hbd.org wrote:

Chris Keenan asks three questions: 

> So the 1st question is, is this a porter? 

Don't know. If it was a porter kit then it probably  
will be some kind of porter.  I enjoy porters but  
have never made one and I'm ignorant on  
what's necessary to classify one. 

> The second question  
<SNIP>  
> How long can it sit in the secondary fermenter  
before 
> it NEEDS to be bottled?  I cannot bottle it for a  
> couple of days and it may run over a couple of weeks. 

That'll be fine.  Sometimes I'll let a batch sit in the  
primary for a month after fermenting is done & then  
rack for aging.  I did this with my last wheat (Sat in  
the primary for almost three months) and it is the  
very best wheat beer I have ever tasted bar none.  
Someone else's wheat may well be far superior  
to this one but I haven't tasted that one yet.  

My suspicion is your 2nd batch got contaminated  
along the fermentation process and that was the  
problem. The concern of getting the beer off the  
sediment is more to isolate the beer from the trub  
& trub is not considered a desirable taste to  
impart to beer thus the racking to a secondary. 

100% speculation on my part is once the trub has  
settled and a substantial yeast production  
continues, the yeast layer on top of the trub covers  
& then effectively encapsulates the trub pretty much  
isolating it from the beer above. I believe that once  
the trub is out of the equation that there isn't much  
difference between beer in the secondary vs beer  
in the bottle as yeast will still be present in both  
and will continue settling out till it is no longer in  
suspension. I think the main difference is beer in  
the bottle is carbonating & beer in fermenters is  
not. When you move the beer to a bottle & prime  
you'll have your fermentation & later... yeast on  
the bottom of the bottle with a small fraction of  
non-yeast particulate/trub-like matter. 

> The third and final question is this.  How do  
> people feel about a kegging system.  I am going  
> back and forth on it.  At one moment I want to  
> get it to make life easier, but the other half is not sure 
> about spending the money (I am an accountant  
> by trade).  Can I get some advice here. 

By all means do the kegging. I still have 300-500  
bottles from BK (Before kegging) which I don't  
have the need for any more. Bottles are convenient  
once filled but their care & feeding is a real time  
waster. If I really need to bottle something I've got  
a counter pressure filler but since kegging my  
brews I haven't had a need to use the CP filler.   

As an accountant you might see the math as in a  
25 gallon period of care & feeding: 

5 kegs = 25 gallons of beer. 

At 128 oz of beer in a gallon that's 3,200 oz in  
25 gallons or:  266.6 12oz bottles. If you consider  
there's roughly 11 oz in each bottle (giving the  
volume of one oz for head space) that's 290  
bottles to properly handle 25 gallons. 

Bottling: You are cleaning, inspecting, sanitizing  
290 bottles & caps, putting bottles on a bottle  
tree, reaching for & filling each bottle, capping  
each bottle and then placing freshly capped  
bottles out of the way as you prepare to cap  
the next bottle and placing the capped bottles  
in a case for storage/convenience. Repetitive  
motion is a requirement. 

Kegging: you spend less than two hours  
cleaning, sanitizing five kegs. Most of the time  
is in waiting for the cleaning solution to  
remove debris. Sanitizing is a breeze at 10  
minutes each. Empty the kegs and fill.  
Repetitive motion is not part of the equation. 

It will take you far, far longer to deal with  
those bottles than those kegs. What's an  
accountant's time worth per hour?  

See? The accountant in you now agrees  
with the home brewer inside you.  
Conflict? resolved!  

Send your check of appreciation for Dr. Gary's  
conflict resolution directly to the HBD server fund  :) 

BTW, I did purchase a 3 gal keg for ease of  
transportation & if I'm going visiting with the  
3 gal keg, I fill it 1/2 way & pressurize it so I  
won't need to worry about running out of  
CO2, having to lug a 20 pound CO2 tank with  
me or buying pricey but convenient replacement  
CO2 injector cartridges. 

Cheers! 





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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:58:45 -0600 (CST)
From: "Eric Schoville" <eric at schoville.com>
Subject: Cleaning Stainless Steel

In regards to the recent posts on scratching SS, could someone please:

1) Give a definitive recommendation for cleaning SS, noting different
requirements for fermenters, mash-tuns, kettles, kegs, etc.

2) The same thing for copper.

3) Give a good list of CIP products along with costs and any caveats?

4) Give a recommendation for storing CIP products after they have been
used?  Can they be reused?

The reason I ask, is that I've been using SS scrubbies and Bar Keepers
Friend for years on all of my SS vessels, including HLT, mash tun, kettle,
and converted sankey keg open fermenters.  For my cornies, I usually do a
TSP soak for about an hour.

5) Are my boiling kettle and my fermenters ruined?

6) Is this a possible source of my "house" flavor?

7) Is there anyway to buff these scratches out at home, or would it be
easier to obtain new kegs?

To be honest, I am very surprised that this topic hasn't been more
discussed, or that I haven't read about it in homebrew books.  Any
comments?

Eric Schoville

See my brewery at:
http://www.schoville.com


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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:03:30 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <dougbeer2000 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: How to make a Berliner Weisse...


Stuart Grant asks some questions about making a Berliner Weisse.  I've made 
a couple attempts at it.  Marc Sedam is the resident expert and may have 
some advice.  If you check the archives you should be able to find his 
previous in-depth posts.

>1) How should I sour it? I'm thinking I could:

Many people swear by sour mashes.  The advantage is that, since you boil 
after the mash, your fermentation and racking equipment won't be subjected 
to the potential of harboring beer spoilage organisms.  Personally I feel 
this method is uncontrollable and may introduce unwanted spoilers.
I'm a proponent of inoculating the cooled wort with Lactobacillus and 
waiting a few hours before pitching the yeast.  I found this to be 
relatively controllable and easy.

>2) What yeast(s) would be appropriate for the normal
>fermentation? Would a phenolic yeast such as Wyeast 3942 be
>off the mark?

Don't use a standard Bavarian style weisse yeast.  The ester and phenolic 
characteristics aren't appropriate in Berliner Weisse.  It's best to use a 
neutral ale yeast like W1056.  The Lactobacillus seems to like a warmer ale 
fermentation, so don't use lager yeast.

>3) What proportion/type of wheat is usual?

Mine were made with 60% wheat malt 50% Pilsner malt.  I believe the actual 
Berliner producers use malted wheat.  The original gravity should be in the 
1.025-1.035 range.

Hops should be very minimal, under 10 IBU.  I use only one early boil 
bittering addition.  Heavy hopping would not only destroy the delicate 
character of the beer but could also limit the Lactobacillus.

This beer benefits from an extended aging period of perhaps six months.  The 
commercial producers often blend young and old batches to achieve 
consistency.

Carbonate heavily, close to 3 volumes CO2.  The beer should be almost 
Champagne-like.


Hope this helps,

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[197.5, 264.8] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:48:59 -0500
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: RIMS Controller

The RIMS controller I have failed.  In fact, it never really worked
correctly; I bought it several years ago and the company/person I got it
from is no longer in business.  I may have been trained as an EE but I
haven't done any EE work in years and don't have the time to if I wanted to.
So is there a company that sells a RIMS controller and temperature probes?

Dave Houseman



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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:44:48 -0500
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Re: Berliner Weisse

While I make no claim of being an expert, I think I have researched this 
beer enough to answer a few questions. My source is a Zymurgy article on 
the style by Dennis Davison from 1996. The tests of my research are 
currently in their secondary fermenters.

You should also search the archives for the posts Marc Sedam has made on 
this style.

The Zymurgy article suggests for this style 50% wheat malt (with a 30-70% 
range), remainder pilsener malt, and 4-8 IBU from German hop varieties. 
Priming is at the rate of 1 cup corn sugar per 5-gallon batch. The 
article's recipes use German ale yeast from various suppliers (including 
Wyeast). This style is said to improve as it ages and may do so for over 
two years.

In each of my two batches, I chose to use a 1-quart starter of White Labs 
German ale/Kolsch yeast and a Wyeast tube of Lactobacillus. Each used 3 
lbs wheat malt and 3 lbs pale malt.

The first used the supposedly traditional habit of boiling the hops in the 
sparge water for an hour and then being used (near boiling). The wort when 
collected was heated to boiling and then immediately cooled. When cool, 
the wort was inoculated with the lactobacillus, lidded, and allowed to 
grow for five days. The yeast starter was then added and the wort was 
allowed to ferment for another five days. I then racked into secondary and 
have allowed it to sit for ~8 weeks. (Note that the extended secondary was 
intentional and based upon the recipes from the article.) Soon, I'll get 
around to bottling.
	
The second batch I prepared with normal mashing and sparging techniques. 
The wort was boiled for an hour, cooled, then processed as above.

When both are bottled and aged some, I will report on differences between 
them. (But it probably won't be for several months.)

Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA




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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:38:49 -0600
From: jOsh tAusCheK <tauscj55 at vaxa.cis.uwosh.edu>
Subject: Sweet Gale, Paradise seed... And a Lager question

I am reading a homebrew catalog that lists Sweet gale and paradise seed as 
idea for belgian style ales... has anyone used either have these? Are the 
suitable to use in conjunction with each other?

And my last question has to do with brewing lagers at ale temperatures... I 
know there is a style, california common, that does this and I know the yeast 
strain they use is available for this style of brewing.  What I am wondering 
is what are the "consequences" of brewing this way, but using a "normal," if 
you will, lager yeast?

Thanks,

Josh




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