HOMEBREW Digest #4430 Fri 19 December 2003

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  RE:  Scorched a direct fired mash ("Raj B. Apte")
  Re:  Rogue Chocolate Stout Clone (val.dan.morey)
  Extract potential of brewing sugars ("Bill Pierce")
  Carbohydrate Calculations ("National Midnight Star Brewery")
  Beerstone Removal (John Palmer)
  Re: RIMS Ramp Rates, PID Controlled etc (FRASERJ)
  Beersicles ("Lau, William T")
  PID Outputs ("A.J deLange")
  Reverse flow RIMS ("Chad Stevens")
  Re: Chilly HERMS ("Ronald La Borde")
  chest freezers run at 32 degrees--how long is life expectancy? (Paul Sullivan)
  Re: Scorched a direct fired mash (Doug Mosher)
  Belgian ale revisited ("Steve Smith")
  Schwarzbier (Keith Stevenson)
  Re: RIMS temperature control / Flowrate measurement (Kent Fletcher)
  Temperature control ("Patrick Hughes")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:47:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Scorched a direct fired mash Michael writes about scorching his first all-grain brew. I did two dozen or so direct fire brews this year without scorching. With a 40L stainless pot, I could achieve 1F/min without scorching by throttling back from full gas power. Two months ago, I got a wort pump. Now I recirculate by pumping from the bottom of the grain bed to a little brass manifold on the top (which I also use for sparging). The result has been some beautiful mashes, spot on, with no scorching. I measure temperature both at the fluid outflow and at the center of the grain bed. I can slew 1C/min now with my stove on full. RIMS and HERMS may be fine for others, but this is simple and cheap. Look around for a used pump--I got mine for $50. raj Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:42:35 -0600 From: val.dan.morey at juno.com Subject: Re: Rogue Chocolate Stout Clone Mark, If you can get your hand on the Sep/Oct 2003 Zymurgy, they have a clone for Shakespeare Stout and the Chocolate Stout. As Bob Barrett indicated in his post, the Chocolate Stout recipe is the same as Shakespeare Stout except for the addition of 1.5 oz of chocolate extract added in secondary. I'd suggest that you can get a chocolate extract/syrup used to flavor coffee beverages. Use this in secondary. Cheers, Dan Morey Club B.A.B.B.L.E. http://hbd.org/babble/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:49:03 -0500 From: "Bill Pierce" <BillPierce at aol.com> Subject: Extract potential of brewing sugars I have found conflicting references to the extract potential of various brewing sugars. Much of the evidence indicates that sucrose has value of 1.0462 but there is far less agreement about corn sugar. Some references indicate it is basically the same as for sucrose or slightly lower (several state that it's 1.045), while others claim that it's 1.037. Charlie Papazian in "The Homebrewer's Companion" suggests that this is due to the fact that the glucose molecules in corn sugar are bound to water molecules that account for 20 percent of the total weight. If true, this explains an extract potential that is 20 percent less than sucrose, but I have found no corroboration of this. Charlie P. also lists the extract potential of Belgian candi sugar is 1.036, as do some other references to invert sugar. Is the reason for this the same (the sugar is bound to water molecules), or is this value in error? It seems odd to me that the extract potential for invert sugar is less than the monosaccharide components of sucrose (glucose and fructose). Some clarification would be helpful. - -- Bill Pierce Cellar Door Homebrewery Now located in Burlington, Ontario Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:13:05 -0500 From: "National Midnight Star Brewery" <nationalmidnightstarbrewery at hotmail.com> Subject: Carbohydrate Calculations I am now two weeks into the Atkins diet and everything is fine (except for no beer!). I am getting close to working the carbs back in and my homebrew is at the top of my list. I have done some searching and with my limited skills, I have not been able to come across calculations for determining carbohydrate concentration in homebrew. Can anyone start me down the right road or give me some references? Thanks in advance and everyone have a safe and happy holiday! William Menzl Midland, Michigan National Midnight Star Brewery North of Jeff a little.... Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:28:41 -0800 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com> Subject: Beerstone Removal I was talking with Steve and Martin about beerstone removal, and what acids to use. Martin asked whether CLR (Calcium Lime Remover) from Jelmar worked, and here is what we found out. CLR is composed primarily of Glycolic (hydroxyacetic) acid, sulfamic and citric acids, according to the Jelmar website. One of the guys in my club swears by it for beerstone removal. I have not had enough beerstone to need to use it. | :-} Checking the ASM Metals Handbooks, I confirmed that sulfamic is routinely used to clean stainless steel and is effective against "calcium deposits". I assume that Jelmar is primarily talking about calcium carbonate instead of oxalate. Glycolic and citric are also used for stainless steel chemical cleaning. A web search for milkstone and beerstone cleaners showed that other commercial products primarily contain phosphoric acid, and one contained sulfuric, but that is not one that we would want to use - too hazardous and sulfuric is corrosive under some conditions. CLR is not corrosive to stainless. It is more effective hot, but don't use it too hot (170F) because it begins to hydrolyze to sulfuric and becomes less effective.. FYI, John John Palmer john at howtobrew.com www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:16:26 -0500 From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com Subject: Re: RIMS Ramp Rates, PID Controlled etc Dion responds to my post..... >>Actually, the PID controller does the same thing, ON/OFF only. It >>does not directly cut back on wattage. There are some PID >>controllers capable <snip> Thanks! This is good information for me, I thought the PID actually variably controlled heater output. Bad part is that I have tried to implement a % controlled algorithm for cycling the power to my elements via the SSR's and have not found a good way of doing yet. It really is a little embarrassing as I am a computer professional working as an independent consultant!! Though in my defense, I have not really sat down and worked through the problem properly. Does anyone on the HBD have an algorithm for cycling an SSR in a given time period? John M. Fraser Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:44:02 -0500 From: "Lau, William T" <william.lau at astrazeneca.com> Subject: Beersicles Dave Larsen" asks of a beersicle in keg - A couple of years ago two cornies of ale in my garage fridge froze. I could figure out why I couldn't get anything out of the tap (duh)! Anyway, I brought them into the house and let them thaw at room temp., put them back on tap and they were fine. Bill Lau AstraZeneca Pharmaceuticals LP 587 Old Baltimore Pike Newark, DE 19702 Phone 302-286-4948 Fax 302-286-4076 william.lau at astrazeneca.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:13:36 +0000 From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: PID Outputs WRT the discussion of PID controller outputs: Most of them have several. The ON/OFF one has been discussed. It is ON (or OFF) depending on whether the load is direct (Cooling) or inverse (Heating) with the duty cycle (total duration settable by the operator) determining the amount of power deliverd. There are also continuous outputs (usually 0 - 5V and/or 4-20 current loops). These are signals whose levels are proportional (linearly) to the amount of power (4ma = 0%, 20 ma = 100%) the controller wants at a given moment. They can be sent to an SCR controller (which usually has the power circuit closed for an integral number of half cycles and open for an integral number of half cycles thus really implementing proportional control but with resolution of 17 (US 60 Hz) or 20 mS (most of rest of world - 50 Hz) so that the control is "smoother" but can also go to a really continuous control mechanism like the actuator on a gas or steam (though steam is usually done fully on or off) valve or the control winding on a saturable core reactor (if such things still exist). In a cooling application an evaporator bypass valve may be controlled for fine control. Note also that these controllers are used for applications other than heating/cooling. pH or ORP control are examples. In this case the device controlled is a chemical dispenser or dispensers. It's probably worth mentioning once more that PID controllers will not control the way you want them to unless they are tuned and proper tuning depends on the masses, specific heats, rates of heat loss, linearity of output (proportional electric control is very linear, operation of a gas valve is not) etc. It is quite likely that the tuneset which works fine for the boost from dough-in to protein rest may not do so well at controlling the boost from saccharification rest to mashout. Modern controllers usually have the capablility to auto tune themselves, to store multiple tune sets and even switch between tunesets in the course of execution of a program is executed. A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:51:38 -0800 From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net> Subject: Reverse flow RIMS A lot of folks concerned about flow rates. Has anyone tried a reverse flow RIMS? That is, pump the return to the bottom of the grain bed and scavenge from the top. You could run the thing full bore all day long and not stick the mash. When you reach the final rest and only maintenance heat additions are required and high flow rate isn't an issue, un-reverse the flow to set the grain bed and sparge as usual. Anybody tried it? Chad Stevens QUAFF San Diego www.quaff.org/afc2004/AFCHBC.html Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:52:27 -0600 From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net> Subject: Re: Chilly HERMS >From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com> >Here's what I had in mind: this is a 3 vessel, 15-20 gallon, single >tier >system with 2 pumps. The heart of the system and the focal point of >heat >exchange is a convoluted counterflow chiller (hence my Chilly HERMS >moniker). The wort is recirculated through pump #1 (wort pump) and >then to >the inner coil of the CFC, and then back to the top of the mashtun. Jay, that sounds great - your're in luck, just send me your wife's email address and I promise to send her a great idea for your best Christmas present ever. >......The heater in the HLT is >controlled by a PID control, with the thermocouple placed in the wort >line >just aft of the exit of the inner coil of the CFC (where the wort will >be >hottest). Since this is a wish list, maybe things can be improved. Instead of the conventional CFC where the exit temp is the hottest, how about some design of the CFC where the entire exchange interface is evenly heated. Hmm, what would this look like? A flat spiral coil inside another coil with zillions of tiny holes for the heating medium to spray the entire inner coil evenly, with a third outer coil to hold, collect, and outflow the heating medium. Oooh Santa, get busy. >....The massive heater >means that the temp rise should be fairly quick (aided by the constant >HLT >recirc and insulation on all lines and tuns). Once you mash in, reset >the >PID for your desired mash temp and it will (should) keep mash temps >stable >without exposing the wort to any water that's but a few degrees over >mash temps. Or, how about having the HLT water MUCH hotter than step temperature, and control the heat exchanger by modulating the flow of heating medium through it. This way you have eliminated the heating ramp times for the 'massive' heater. I will discuss this later. >...The only variable is being able to raise >the HLT temp fast enough so there's not massive lag going from step to >step - hence the Paul Bunyan heater. (I had initially thought of >putting >the thermocouple in the HLT, but then I have no way of directly >measuring MT >heat losses. It's hit or miss, but it should also work once you >"learn" >your system with regard to MT heat loss ie - set the HLT to "2 >degrees" >above the desired mash temp)...but I digress. Exactly, this is what I mean (see previous comment). Still wishing, why not use a much smaller vessel to contain and heat the heating medium. The HLT is a great HLT, but let's ask Santa for a MHT (Medium Heating Tun). It could be much smaller, say a gallon or so, just enough to contain the heating device (propane, gas, or electric). Now you can get rapid heating when desired. Remember you will modulate the flow to control temperature at the exchanger wort exit. >...Electrics/mechanical are a challenge. The PID activates at LEAST a >30-40 >amp SSR (50 amp preferable) which switches through a contactor to >operate >the heater to change temps. We love a challenge, but I think you can eliminate the contactor, the SSR will do fine without it. Now, about modulating the heating medium. I have been having great fun playing with peristaltic pumps. Naturally being curious, I opened one up to find the motor had an optical sensor at the motor rear shaft. This was interfaced to the control board which allowed speed regulation and control. For some time I have been wondering about the pumps we have been using, the magnetic drive pumps. I can and have been slowing the speed by using a cheap fan motor control. This works sort-of, because I find the setting difficult to adjust, more power, and the motor speeds up too much, less power and the motor slows down too much. When the wort gets moving, the motor then speeds up because the inertia is less. Here's what I am getting at: The magnet already in the pump possibly could be used to pulse a sensor attached to the outter housing. The sensor could be a hall effect device, this then connected to the control board (to be designed). C. D., I will be checking your web site for the full details soon. Thanks for a super web site! >So what do you think? Workable, or crap? YOU MAKE THE CALL.... It's '409', better than 'FANTASTIC'! Ron ===== Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA www.hbd.org/rlaborde Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:59:14 -0500 From: Paul Sullivan <paulsull at gis.net> Subject: chest freezers run at 32 degrees--how long is life expectancy? Well my Woods chest freezer, bought new 6 years ago, seems like it's on it's way out. The level of frost is only half way down the sides, the bottom half is not cooling. I spoke to a refrig tech today and he said that it's most likely that the metal tubes in the walls are slowly rusting. This seems plausible, because running it at 32 or so you can eventually see rust starting to form in the inside seams. This is my third chest freezer in my 11 year brewing career, and thinking about it now, none of them has lasted more than 5-6 years. I'm guessing that this is because the condensation that rusts the inside seams probably rusts the inside gas pipes (although, shouldn't they be stainless?--well, probably too expensive, and not necessary if the freezer is run way below freezing temps, as most of these (not used for lagering) are). He said he can charge it up, but there is no guarantee how long the charge will stay. I'm thinking charging it up again may hasten the gas escaping, as the increased pressure may enlarge the cracks in the tubes, this from past experience with another freezer which was recharged and only lasted a couple of weeks. Right now it still holds at 32, but the compressor is turning on every couple of hours. I've marked the ice level inside with a sharpie, and am monitoring to see if the level is getting higher, and at what rate, Anyone else have any experience with this phenomenon? What's the solution (besides building a custom walk-in (drool)? Doesn't this suck? Paul Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:21:23 -0700 From: Doug Mosher <dhmosher at juno.com> Subject: Re: Scorched a direct fired mash A continuation with a question. I have a 8 gal mash/lauter with the false bottom 2" off the bottom. I have done a step using direct heat without scorching. The problem is circulation, so lacking a pump for the next brew I'll try draining off the bottom into a 2 qt pan and recirculate manually. Does anyone see any drawback to this? thanks Doug Mosher Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:35:42 -0700 From: "Steve Smith" <sasmith at in-tch.com> Subject: Belgian ale revisited I have spent some time checking the hbd archives (which was helpful), but wondered if anyone would care to share (via the list or privately) a favorite partial extract Trappist Ale recipe that captures the character of a Chimay. From what I have uncovered, it appears that the best Chimay yeast to culture from the bottle is that of Chimay's red label beer, Peres Trappistes. I have read up on the proper steps for culturing from the bottle. However, I would like some feedback about whether you feel it is important to feed the starter a second time, after the bottle yeast dregs have fed on the sugars within the sterilized wort of an initial starter culture (which initial culture I found could take as long as 5 - 7 days to create a good yeast layer in the starter). Currently, I am thinking of working from Dave Miller's recipe for Trappist Ale within his older book, "The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing", but am open other suggestions. Also, could you tell me, is the duration of primary fermentation for Belgian ales similar to that of other ales (usu. 4 - 7 days), and is it better to have a lengthy secondary fermentation (as usually benefits other ales)? Also, what would be the optimum temperature at which to ferment? As I understand it, a favorable phenolic character will develop if you ferment above 70 degrees. My question is, how high above 70 degrees? Thanks, and if you just refer me to further study of the archives I will certainly go back to it. I was having trouble with the archives and other sections of hbd.org, whereby every time I checked a specific article, I could not return to the previous page that contained all of the other search hits. Has there been a problem with the website? Maybe it was that the couple times this happened I was online when there was enough other eTraffic to cause a bottleneck. Thanks! Steve Smith sasmith at in-tch.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:23:11 -0500 From: Keith Stevenson <k.stevenson at kagekaze.org> Subject: Schwarzbier I've been having a bit of a debate with a local brewer over the amount of roastiness that is appropriate in a schwarzbier. Two of our local brewpubs currently have schwarzbier on tap and both of them taste (to me at least) like porter recipes brewed with lager techniques. So my question for the collective is, just how should a schwarzbier taste? Is Kostritzer the best example to work from? Other than easing off on the chocolate malt, what else could be done to fine-tune the recipe into a better representation of the style? Cheers! - --Keith Stevenson-- Louisville, KY Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:26:20 -0800 (PST) From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: RIMS temperature control / Flowrate measurement lou King asked: > Can anyone answer the question: How does one measure > flowrate in a RIMS system? The best answer would be > something cheap and easy to clean, so it isn't a one > time test but used for every batch. Of course you COULD purchase and install a flowmeter, you would have to use a refractometer and do the math to get meaningful results, as flowmeters are calibrated for a SG of 1.000. Given that the viscosity of a sugar solution is also temperature dependent (IIRC), it could get quite complicated to attain any level of accuracy with a variable area flowmeter. But don't forget the KISS principle. Just run your wort return into suitably sized pan for some fraction of a minute, 10 seconds is probably good. Keep the vessel and return line at the same relative elevation so as not to effect flow due to altering the head. Transfer the wort to a graduated vessel and multiply the volme by 6 for volme per minute. Kent Fletcher HERMSing in So Cal Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:48:49 -0600 From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com> Subject: Temperature control I am a week behind but I just read the very informative post by Martin Brungard in HBD #4425 on his experiments controlling mash temps. and the always controversial thermocouple location. This makes sense to me based on the fact that the enzymes are in the wort. Shouldn't this temp. monitoring placement theory be applied to HERMS as well? Patrick Hughes Return to table of contents
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