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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Lightbulb as heat source ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  That lager taste (Nate & Brenda Wahl)
  Heating Pad for Fermentor (Fred Johnson)
  RE: Cooking with beer ("Bill Dubas")
  RE: Fermenter Heating ("Thomas, Chris")
  Frozen kegs or fermenters (Richard Feight)
  Session beer ("Dave Draper")
  Refrigerator Heaters ("Jason Henning")
  RE: Heating Pad for Fermentor ("Martin Brungard")
  Fermenter Heating (hollen)
  Sanitizing beer bottles ("Dave Burley")
  Dog Fish Head ("Patrick Macy")
  re: Kegging questions ("Michael O'Donnell")
  RE:  Speaking of Irish Red Ales ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: trash can bags for brewing (Derric)
  Subject: Lightbulb as heat source? ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
  Re: Concept of "Session Beer" (Jeff Renner)
  Re: St. Patty's Day Brew (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Ginty's Irish-American (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Gypsum vs Calcium Chloride ("Martin Brungard")
  making marmite (bruce)
  Wilhelm ("A. J. delange")
  Re: Cooking with beer (lbg webmaster)
  Re: fusels & esters ("-S")


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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:44:56 +1030
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: Lightbulb as heat source

On Thursday, 29 January 2004 at  9:45:32 -0500, Jeff and/or Donna May wrote:
> I am having the same problem with my fermenting fridge not staying warm
> enough to ferment ales.  It is in the laundry room where it stays around 62F
> during the winter months.  I am considering the light bulb approach with a
> thermostat.  It works for my pump house, so it should work for my fridge.
>
> My concern is exposing the beer to light.  I ferment in glass carboys and I
> try to prevent the beer from getting light-struck.  Should I be concerned
> about the light bulb exposing the fermenting beer to too much light?  I
> guess I could cover the carboy to shield it.

Hmm, good question.  I hadn't thought of that one.  I'd expect that
the most damage to be done to the beer by ultraviolet light, which is
almost absent in tungsten light.  It's obviously playing it safe to
keep the light away from the beer, though.

If possible I'd strongly recommend putting the light bulb under the
beer, not above it, since the warm air rises.  My fridge has an area
below the fermenters where I can put the bulb.  See
http://www.lemis.com/grog/brewing/temperature-control.html.

Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 05:37:15 -0500
From: Nate & Brenda Wahl <cruiser at coastalwave.net>
Subject: That lager taste

In HBD 4464, Robert Sandefer writes:

"Esters are important certainly but I've also detected a flavor in many 
lagers but not in ales. For lack of a better term, my wife and I call it 
"that lager flavor". I have had occassion to wonder if that flavor may 
be due to a sulfur-containing compound (just my guess)."

I also pick up on this 'flavor' in a lot of lagers, and often wondered 
if others did, too.  Not a lot has been said about it.   It seems to be 
a 'bite' more than a flavor, though; it hits the middle center of the 
tongue.  What most people describe as 'clean and crisp' possibly, but 
something I find rather unpleasant.

A lot of commercial lagers seem to have this going.  Almost all of the 
Canadian lagers (50 and LeBatt Blue seem worse) although some of the 
premium beers like LeBatt Classic (Classique!) don't, go figure.  
Killians Red does, Linie's Red doesn't.  Miller products seem to be 
based on it, and to a lesser extent in the Bud family.  I hardly ever 
get it in continental pilsners, though, but do in a number of their 
darker bretheren, the marzens, bocks, dortmunders, etc.  Not very 
prevalent in American micros at all.

I didn't see any other replies, so maybe its a sensitivity thing for a 
few; but I'd like to reiterate Robert's call for comments and/or 
potential causes.  Thanks!

Cheers,
Nate Wahl
Oak Harbor, Ohio, (65.1, 146.4)




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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:08:40 -0500
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Heating Pad for Fermentor

Martin has been using a heating pad in his fermentation chamber to keep 
it warm enough during very cold weather. This certainly sounds 
reasonable, but I do wonder how long that heating pad will last, as 
they aren't normally used 24 hours a day for a couple of weeks at a 
time. I wonder if they are designed to meet such extended use. Anyone 
have any experience or thoughts on this? Martin?

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:33:54 +0000
From: "Bill Dubas" <bill_dubas at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Cooking with beer

Steve from Stevenson WA points us to an Emeril Lagasse site containing a few 
recipes using beer as an ingredient.

http://houseandhome.msn.com/Food/Experts/CookingwithBeer.aspx

Did anyone happen to scroll down to the bottom of this page and explore the 
"Beer Basics" link?  It will take you to a page with an article on 
understanding beer terminology.  Content is provided by Better Homes and 
Gardens.  A fellow homebrewer friend of mine summed the article up nicely . 
 . . . "The author must be a tea drinker!" (Not that there's anything wrong 
with that)

One of the statements that I questioned was:
"Keg beer offers a fresher flavor than bottle or can beer since the keg beer 
hasn't been pasteurized to kill the yeast.  Keg beer must be kept constantly 
at about 45 degrees so the yeast won't start working again."

I would guess that brewpubs and small micros do not pasteurize their beer 
because of limited resources and distribution.  I can also see this being 
true for real ales served in kegs in the UK.  But is this practice (not 
pasteurizing kegged beer) something that is done by large micros and 
megabreweries?  I assumed that all large breweries pasteurized their beer, 
whether it was going into bottles, cans, or kegs.

Regards,
Bill Dubas
North Texas Homebrewers Assoc.



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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:02:21 -0500
From: "Thomas, Chris" <CThomas at wilmorite.com>
Subject: RE: Fermenter Heating

One suggestion I saw was to use a ceramic heating element like those
used in reptile cages. Uses a standard light bulb socket.

Found it - here's the website.

http://www.oregonbrewcrew.com/freezer/freezer.html

Regards, Chris.


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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 06:05:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard Feight <richardfeight at yahoo.com>
Subject: Frozen kegs or fermenters

Because everyone's been so fruitfull with their
suggestions and I am excited to see that there are
other that have dealt with this problem successfully,
first off. I'd like to thank everyone who contributed.
Second, for the benefit of those who may be wrestling
with frozen kegs i will attempt to summarize the
responses I've received:

Several people have suggested a 40 watt bulb in the
fridge. The main problem I've heard is this may cause
the fridge to run if the bulb is always turned on and
the fridge is on. Turn the fridge off or use a timer.

Others have suggested a small heating pad from a local
grocier (Meijers in Michigan), small engine pad from a
tractor or small engine supply store (Tractor Supply
in Michigan) or possible a waterbed heater could serve
the same purpose, or your local homebrew shop. This
could be hooked up to a temperature controller.

One of the more creative ideas was to wire a
temperature controller to the fridge and heating unit,
weather it be a heating pad or waterbed heater... so
that you can control the usage of the fridge with the
touch of the button on the controller. One way for
maintaining a min temp the other for turning on the
fridge and cooling.

Thanks again for all your responses.

Rich
Lansing, Michigan




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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:30:38 -0700
From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name>
Subject: Session beer

Dear Friends,

>From my time in the UK, a "session beer" was anything you could 
drink all evening without being completely gassed out of your mind at 
closing time.  Hence the "ordinary bitters" at 3.5-4% ABV were very 
commonly treated as such, and in some circles the two terms were 
used interchangeably.  Thus I'd say a 6% ABV beer would be 
excluded-- I don't know about you, but I couldn't last more than a few 
pints of 6% before I would need to retire gracelessly from the field.  
Keep in mind that the British drinking culture is vastly different from 
the American one because of the archaic licensing laws in that green 
and pleasant land.  These included, until quite recently, very narrow 
hours of operation for most pubs, with an iron-clad closing time of 
11pm.  Even as late as the 90s, it was very common indeed for people 
to go to the pub after work, arriving by 7 or 8, and then quaffing as 
many pints as they could possibly fit into the few hours remaining 
before closing time.  Quite bizarre to my way of thinking and drinking, 
but it's just a cultural thing.

In the interest of propriety I won't describe what it was sometimes 
like on the streets and kerbs outside areas with many pubs at about 
11:30 pm... let's just say it was usually in technicolor.

Cheers, 

Dave in ABQ
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
David S. Draper, Institute of Meteoritics, Univ New Mexico
David at Draper dot name
Beer page: http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer.html




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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:33:38 -0500
From: "Jason Henning" <jason at thehennings.com>
Subject: Refrigerator Heaters

Hey now-

Light bulbs are nice for, as the name suggests, lighting things up. If
you want to heat, I would use a heater. A fan in the heater would be
ideal. It might be nice if the heater and the fan had different control
settings. If it were GFI protected, that would be a plus. This type of
heater is very much available in any department store. They're being
sold as hair dryers.

A hair dryer won't burn out leaving your brew to go cold. A hair dryer
isn't so fragile so as to break if hit. A hair dryer doesn't produce any
light waves that could damage beer. A hair dryer also protects you from
the hot surfaces it creates.

So leave the light bulb in your reading lamp and get a hair dryer.

As for as temperature control, use a thermostat. Timers are good at
controlling cycle length but not all that good at temperature control.
Maybe running a heater for 15 minutes every 6 hours works when the
ambient temperature is steady works. What happens when the temperature
in the fridge is already above your target point? The heater will turn
on and heat it some more. Timers are for cycle length, thermostats are
for temperature control. Use a t-stat for the best results.

- ----------

Is that 120 minute IPA mentioned a few days ago an IPA? I mean really,
21% and 100+ IBUs? Sounds like an big a** barleywine to me. Just to seem
as overboard as these guys, I'm calling my barleywine "Jason's Delusory
75 Minute Double Imperial Bitter Squared", should be a good one!
 .
Cheers,
Jason Henning

68 ms from Jeff on the superhighway




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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 05:38:59 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Heating Pad for Fermentor

Fred's comments on the longevity of heating pads are wise.  I am using the 
pad for a week or two at a time.  Normal use would be a few hours for an 
ache.

After I thought about it for a while, I think that any concern about the 
ability of a heating pad in continous, long-term service is unfounded.  A 
heating pad is a relatively low wattage, resistive element.  Additionally, 
many pads sold in the US are evaluated by Underwriters Laboratory (UL).  
They check for products that could pose a hazard.  I assume that a heating 
pad that has received a UL designation is relatively safe.

A heating pad is an incredibly simple item.  Just an array of high 
resistance wire or metal film on a plastic substrate.  The rear window 
defroster is an example of the concept, excepting its applied to glass 
instead of plastic.  They operate continuously with a temperature controller 
that limits the voltage or current to the heating element(s).

My experience is that the life expectancy of a heating pad in long-term 
service is plenty long.  My pad is now 10 or 15 years old now.  
Additionally, I'm pretty sure that the consequences of heating pad failure 
is that it stops heating.  I suppose that it could melt or catch fire, but 
I'm assuming that a UL listing means that they have investigated and 
confirmed that that failure mode cannot occur.  A properly designed heating 
pad would see the full line voltage of 110v when set on high and lower 
voltage or current at lower settings.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL



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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:20:11 -0500 (EST)
From: hollen at woodsprite.com
Subject: Fermenter Heating


Well, no one has mentioned my method, so I will pipe up.  It is cheap and
simple.  I ferment exclusively in corny kegs, so it will need to be
modified for all those demented souls who still use dangerous glass
carboys.  B-}

I get a small 30 gallon clean trash can, put the corny in it, fill with
water almost up to the rubber of the corny and put in an aquarium heater.
For about $20, you can get one of 100 watt capacity with a built in
thermostat.

No building, no electronics, just plug and play.  Couldn't be simpler.

dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen


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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:52:26 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Sanitizing beer bottles

Brewsters;

Bill Frazier asks about how I sanitize my beer bottles before I bottle my
beer.

I haven't botttled beer routinely for a while, as I mostly keg.  But when I
do/did, I use a strong warm bleach solution which gets poured from bottle to
bottle and then rinse each bottle with ( my very ) hot water three times .

I developed the two fisted rinse method ( which none of my helpers can really
master - maybe it's the prebottling warmup beers? or maybe they can't rub
their belly and scratch their head simultaneously? ) in which I hold a bottle
in each hand and swirl and dump. The  two bottles are then refilled to about
1/4 full of hot water, swirled and dumped, etc.  This way, I can rinse 50
bottles in a few minutes, then lay a sheet of plastic film over the bottles
arranged side by side on several layers of newspaper on the floor. While they
cool, use that time to get set up.

>From time to time I make a Whitbread bottle conditioned ale or a mit hefe
Weisen wheat beer, so I rinse as above, put the appropriate amount of a sugar
water solution into each bottle ( instead of using a botttling bucket)  and
add the partially cleared beer directly from my secondary and cap.

To be clear, I also use this same basic method on my kegs ( i.e. warm bleach
solution first ), pressurize briefly and push some of this bleach solution out
the "out" before depressurizing and rinsing thrice with swirling and dumping
and then filling the keg with hot water and pushing out the water with CO2.

If you are squeamish about using bleach solution on a SS pressure vessel, use
another sanitizer.  BTW I am aware that bleach can corrode SS ( dangerous for
a pressure vessel) so I never STORE bleach in SS.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:05:00 -0500
From: "Patrick Macy" <whodatpat at hotmail.com>
Subject: Dog Fish Head

I will admit that the 60, 90, & 120 minuit IPA's from Dog Fish head are a 
work of art.  However, not being a Hop-Head, I tend to lose intrest after 
the 60 minute IPA.  Anyway, the point of this email is that I believe that 
most people are missing out on what may there best beer.  Dog Fish Head has 
a craft brew called Midas Touch.  It has a very complex flavor without a lot 
of hops and is also high octain.  Maid from Malt, Honey and Grape, it has 
characteristics of a great ale, a clean dry wine and a mellow mead.  Even 
better for those of you who are not frome these parts, the clone recipie 
published on Brew Your Own. http://byo.com/recipe/1011.html is amazingly 
close to the real thing.  I strongly recoment giving this one a try.
Patrick Macy



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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:30:23 -0800
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: re: Kegging questions

Hi Chris,

A couple of thoughts on your space issues, but all of them will cost a 
little money:

 - Buy another keg:  this is the best option, since it means that you can 
have 2 beers on tap at once... I find that when I have multiple beers in 
the fridge, rather than waiting until my kegs are empty to brew, I brew 
more often and enjoy it more.  Basically, if you like the hobby, you'll end 
up owning more than 1 keg (er, 12 in my case). These aren't necessarily 
expensive if you are willing to buy a dirty one (on ebay or from a couple 
of sources that people have mentioned on here) for around $20 with 
shipping... then replace the o-rings (about $5), maybe the poppets and give 
it a good scrubbing and you are a 2-keg man for under $30.

 - Build a counterpressure filler:  This will take some effort, but if you 
are reasonably handy, it can be done for ~$20-30... a cheap one won't be as 
nice as a ready-made one, but it will work. Do a google search for plans.

 - Buy a carbonator cap for a 2-liter soda bottle: the cheapest option, I 
think they are around $12, but not ideal.  I have one and it is useful for 
transporting beer, but it isn't really ideal.  Every time you want a beer, 
you will have to open it up, pour your beer, reseal the cap (mine leaks gas 
if I'm not careful, YMMV), and re-pressurize.

 - Drink: Invite some friends over, serve chips.  Problem solved.  Make sure 
to have backup supplies, because your keg will give that sucking sound much 
earlier than you expect.

cheers,
mike
monterey, ca
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:52:53 -0500
>From: "Chris Keenan" <chrisk at flagshipcinemas.com>
>Subject: kegging questions
>
>Hello,
>
>I would first like to thank all of you who helped me so much with the
>encouragement to move to kegging.  I did it for my last batch and I am in
>love with both the product and the time it saved me.  I do have a couple of
>questions though, that I am sure are elementary for you all, but I am
>stumped.
>
>1) I think that I dispensing the beer all wrong.  I have a standard 5 gallon
>corney keg with a CO2 set up.  I am not able to convert a 'fridge (yet) and
>I keep the keg in a standard 'fridge with the shelving removed.  I also have
>the tavern style tap which attached directly to the quick disconnect of the
>corney.  When I first drew a glass, it was great, now when I draw a pint, I
>get probably 3/4 foam and 1/4 beer.  This as you know is not all that
>appealing.  I have tried dispensing using no CO2 flow, I have used CO2 flow
>low and then at 1 - 2 psi above the psi to carbonate, and I still get foam,
>what is the solution here, I am stumped.  I am convinced that I am
>dispensing wrong, yet I cannot find good advice on this...
>
>2) I have a brew in my Carboy that is ready to be moved to the keg for Super
>Bowl Sunday.  I still have some of my prior batch in the keg, is there a
>good way to get out the beer and so that I can force carbonate the next
>batch without purchasing a counter-pressure bottle filter, as I really do
>not want to spend the money, yet.
>
>Thanks for the help!!
>Chris
>Everett, MA

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael O'Donnell
Hopkins Marine Station, Stanford University
Oceanview Boulevard
Pacific Grove, CA 93950
mooseo at stanford.edu
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 



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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:59:42 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE:  Speaking of Irish Red Ales

Steve,

Yes, IRA will be in the new 2004 edition of the BJCP style guidelines.
However, these will not be released before March.  But that shouldn't stop
the BlueBonnet from using the IRA style definition in Zymurgy and including
this in your competition.  That version in Zymurgy was a draft version.
While the final form may very somewhat this is certainly close enough for
now.  Our current plan is that we will post the new style guidelines
sometime in March for review and [constructive] comment.  Then when we've
incorporated these into the final version this will be released officially
sometime in June.  Many competitions have some local or regional styles in
their competitions; competitions aren't limited to only what the BJCP
publishes as a style guideline, although this does the serve the purposes of
the vast majority of competitions.  Just so that brewers and judges have the
same information to work from.  

David Houseman
BJCP Competition Director


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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:35:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Derric <derric1961 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: trash can bags for brewing


A little searching on the net indicates that there
are food grade bags available.  For example, at
    http://www.interplas.com/products.html?category=DL

"Drum Liners on Rolls
Prepare, process, or store liquids, pastes, or powders
in these clear industrial grade polyethylene bags.
Perforation between bags allows for easy tear-off.
Other sizes are available. Please ask us about custom
sizing. 38" x 65" fits 55-gallon drums and 36" x 48"
fits 50-gallon drums. Meets FDA specifications."




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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:32:59 -0800
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Subject: Lightbulb as heat source?

Perhaps a better idea than a light bulb would be to sit the carboys on one 
of those thermostatically controlled waterbed heaters.  Most of the guys on 
this digest will be old enough to remember when everyone seemed to have a 
waterbed in the '80's, my parents still have a couple in pieces sitting in 
the basement.
I have not needed to do this myself (love this time of year for the lagers) 
but I was looking at it the other day and the heater is a tough, thick 
plastic with a bulb-type thermostat probe that might even be able to be 
enclosed in shrink tubing and placed in the beer, if not just taped on the 
surface of the carboy.  The thermostat is designed to keep the bed at body 
(warm room) temperatures and the adjustment range would be bang on, not to 
mention having built-in feedback to self-control once you get it calibrated. 
  Heating capacity should be enough for even the biggest batches.

Steve Dale-Johnson
Brewing at 1918 miles, 298 degrees Rennerian
Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada.



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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:00:04 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Concept of "Session Beer"

Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu> wrote from Moncton, NB, Canada:

>After googling a bit for explanations, I thought I'd ask the collective.
>So, what are the "limits" of a session beer?

Great question!  One that deserves to to be discussed, like all 
matters of great moment, over a few pints.

Lacking that opportunity, I'll make a quick stab at what a session 
beer should be for me.

If you were to a search for ["session beer" "Michael Jackson"] or 
["session beer" "Roger Protz"] (two top British beer writers), you'd 
get a feel for what I think a session beer should be, because, as you 
note, this is a distinctively British term.

When two or more Brits gather in their local for a session, they 
expect everyone to stand a round, or two, or three.  So if four of 
them get together, they may end up drinking multiples of fours - 
that's pints, each, at 568 ml each.

So a session beer should be inviting, easy drinking, low in alcohol, 
non-satiating.

Miller Lite's slogan "Tastes great, less filling" is not a bad start, 
but Lite is not, to my mind, a session beer.  It fails on the first 
criterion - it isn't inviting.  An inviting beer leaves a lingering 
flavor that invites another swallow.

This is related to easy drinking.  A session beer has enough flavor 
to enjoy but not so much to be distracting.  Every once in a while, 
you should stop after a swallow and say to yourself, "Damn, this is a 
good beer."  But you shouldn't be tempted to meditate on it.  You've 
got important things to talk about with your mates besides beer, even 
though beer may be one of the topics.

It should be interesting enough to be boringly tiresome, but not so 
strong in flavor to fatigue your palate, either.  It shouldn't be 
served so cold your taste buds are numbed.

A session beer should be moderate enough in body that it is not 
satiating, and should be low in carbonation so it doesn't fill you up 
with gas.

Easy drinking is not enough, though.  I remember, albeit somewhat 
hazily, a wonderful keg of Reissdorf Koelsch at a picnic that was 
perilously easy to drink.  However, by the end of the afternoon, I 
felt like someone had stolen the bones in my legs.

A session beer should be low enough in alcohol to encourage 
conversation but not tangle your tongue.  You should be able to stand 
up at the table and say, "This is my round.  What are you drinking?" 
and make it back from the bar holding four pints and not spill a drop 
on your shoes.  Or at least not much.  You should be able to still 
play a good game of darts or skittles or shove ha'penny.

At the end of the evening you should be able to walk home (it's a 
local, remember?) without falling into the canal. You should wake the 
next morning from a refreshing night of sleep and feel fine.

There is only one beer that fills all these criteria for me - British 
(or British-style) cask conditioned ordinary bitter (though an 
argument can be made for mild).  An ideal session beer for me would 
be a medium amber (for complexity) bitter of about 1.037 original 
gravity (~3.7% ABV), hopped in the low to mid 30's, preferably 
dry-hopped.

The Brits pack a lot of flavor into a beer like this.  Part of this 
is in the brewing and part of it is that it has low carbonation and 
served at cellar temperature.

I think that there are some low gravity German beers (schankbier) 
that are also served from casks at cellar temperatures and with low 
carbonation that would qualify, but I am not familiar with them.  So, 
for me, I'm a bitter man.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:12:00 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: St. Patty's Day Brew

Bill Wible <nospam02 at brewbyyou.net> writes from Malvern, PA 19355 writes:

>Very frequently, we see these recipes, like yours,
>that call for crystal malt in everything from
>35L to 25L to 55L to 65L.  I don't understand
>where this comes from.
>
>All the major suppliers supply crystal malt in
>20L, 40L, 60L, 80L and 120L.  There is no such
>thing as 55L, 35L or 25L crystal.

I evidently had some 35L crystal when I originally formulated the 
recipe - not sure where it came from.  I don't worry about such small 
details - 40L is probably indistinguishable from 35, and what's more, 
there is probably a range of colors in a batch and even more from 
batch to batch.  British crystal from Crisp is nominally 45L (40-50) 
http://www.specialtymalts.com/crisp_malting/descriptions.html.  This 
is what I used most recently.

But I should probably change the recipe for the future to read 40-50L.

Do brew it - it's a great recipe.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:15:33 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Ginty's Irish-American

Ted Grudzinski <tgrudzin at yahoo.com> asks

>Do I trest the maize and barley in any special way, or
>just add it to the mash?

Just mix them dry with the crushed malt - flakes are pre-gelatinized. 
Some people have trouble with flakes causing a slow run-off, but I 
never have.  If you are worried, you could use rice hulls.  Do make 
sure the flaked maize is fresh.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:15:34 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Gypsum vs Calcium Chloride

Darrell asked for thoughts on the use of gypsum or calcium chloride for mash 
pH adjustments.  A number of folks poked around the question, but never 
pointed out the answer.

Sure, either of these minerals add calcium to the water.  Neither mineral 
affects water pH by itself.  In other words, adding these minerals to your 
sparge water will not drop the water's pH.  You have to add an acid for 
that.   But in conjunction with a grain mash, the combination of the organic 
phosphate (phytin) found in malt and the calcium does produce a pH reduction 
in the mash.  Either mineral is equally effective at pH adjustment.

The real difference between the minerals is their effect on the "flavor ion" 
concentrations.  I use the term flavor ions to denote the main water flavor 
contributors, sodium, chloride, and sulfate.

In the case of gypsum, the added sulfate concentration enhances the 
bitterness of the finished beer.  The added chloride from the calcium 
chloride addition enhances the perception of sweetness in the beer.

So the selection of which mineral to add to your mash for pH affect is 
dependent on the flavor perception you want to enhance in the finished beer. 
  A bock will benefit from a completely different mineral addition 
(chloride) than an IPA (sulfate).

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL



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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 18:50:58 -0800
From: bruce <bruce.m.bush at verizon.net>
Subject: making marmite

I have heard that Marmite (and I presume, Vegemite) is made of spent
brewing yeast and was developed as a protein supplement during WW II.
For those who don't know, Marmite is a very tangy, salty spead that many
Brits like, and many Americans don't. I recently took the lees from a
batch of my beer and boiled it down into a thick sludge.  It is not bad
on toast, though it does not taste exactly like Marmite ( probably
because of the hops).  Has anyone else tried this?  I hate to throw away
good sludge.
     By the way, the spent grain, after malting and sparging, is good as
breakfast cereal and in breads.  It can also be used to make a very good
crisp-bread  like rye crisp.  Bruce



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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:50:19 +0100
From: "A. J. delange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Wilhelm

Small thing for sure but Willy's title (as confirmed by the Kaltenberg 
website) was Herzog. This is usually translated as "elector" which, I 
think, means he got to participate in the selection of the Holy Roman 
Emperor (when he wasn't publishing  a Gebot about one thing or 
another).


Cheers, A.J.



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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:10:56 -0600
From: lbg webmaster <homebrew at sunflower.com>
Subject: Re: Cooking with beer

I have gathered some good recipes using beer on our club website at:

http://www.sunflower.com/~homebrew/cook.html


Vanberg & DeWulf importers have a bunch of recipes using Belgians at:

http://www.belgianexperts.com/kitchen.php

Many breweries, Pyramid comes to mind, feature recipes using their beers 
on their websites.


Pete Clouston
Lawrence, KS
Lawrence Brewers Guild
http://www.sunflower.com/~homebrew



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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:17:25 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: fusels & esters

Chad writes that Randy writes about banana esters ...

>> Did you possibly mean pitch a small volume of yeast
>> and ferment warm? This would result in a greater
>> amount of yeast growth. This has been my
>> practice with weizens for years.

> This is where I got the idea:
 ....MBAATQ 1975...
> High
> levels of amino acids and high sugar adjunct levels are effective in
> producing higher levels of fusel alcohols.

High levels of aminos create fusels by the catabolic route and low levels
that appear with high adjunct by the anabolic mechanism.   No mystery.

>**Higher than normal yeast rates
> produce more fusel alcohols; isoamyl alcohol in particular is increased by
> 80% for a four-fold increase in pitching rate.**

I'd have to see the conditions and details to make sense of that, but I have
serious reservations about using this as a generalization.  Usually greater
yeast
growth implies greater levels of fusels.   If you seriously underpitch, then
you'd probably get more growth by pitching 4X more which could lead to
the conclusion above.   Vastly overpitching normal levels shouldn't be
expected to cause excessive fusel levels, but there are exceptions ...

===

> So I think, with regard to ester production, there are at least two
> different mechanisms at work.

Yes there are, but the impact of fusel levels has limited impact on final
ester levels..  Fusels are precursors for esters - necessary precedents,
*BUT* the levels of esters produced is more strongly influenced by levels of
acetylCoA and the enzymes available from the specific yeast rather than
fusel levels.

It's harder to predict  the "hidden variable" of actylCoA pooling.   I
glossed over it in my ester&fusel overview, but there are two steps in the
conversion of fusels to esters. The second step in which an
alcohol(specific) acetyl-transferase produces the final ester is the yeast
dependent step.  These alcohol-transferase genes go by names ATF1...  ATFn
and the genetic hardware appears to control the specific yeast's ester
profile.

>It seems there are two ways to obtain big
> ester, pitch small and warm and pitch big and warm.

Maybe - but the evidence is quite tenuous.  Warm is a winner - no doubt.
BY&F notes that pitching rate influences ester levels but the effect is not
very  predictable.  Maule(1967, JIB 73) reports ester levels reduced by
large
increases in pitching level.  Pitching big will reduce overall growth since
the yeast run out of sterols and UFAs earlier (more yeast sharing the same
O2), which should - at first glance - increase esters as growth stalls.
OTOH - if the big pitching causes the FAN to be used up early in
fermentation, then perhaps the free acetylCoA levels of the yeast never
rise - reducing ester formation.

It seems that if you pitch big and run out of FAN or carbos early then you
get few esters.  If you stall because of lack of O2 product or most other
nutrient deficiencies then you get big esters.   It depends on wort
conditions and yeast reqs ultimately.   Underpitching is a safe bet for more
esters.  Overpitching is a craps shoot.

> But here's the REALLY interesting part.  The five gallon batch presented
> very little banana and a subdued clove character.  The one gallon batch
> presented very little clove but a more pronounced banana character as a
> result of the higher pitching rate. This is consistent with the papers
> assertion that isoamyl alcohol increases with "greater than normal"
> pitching rates (banana is isoamyl acetate).


Yeah but ....what of the factors ?

First - the term "isoamyl alcohol" needs some explanation (to me at least).
It implies a fusel, yet normally "banana ester" in beer is attributed to
isoamyl ACETATE - an ester.
Other esters, isoamyl hexanoate, isoamyl propionate are said to produce a
banana notes too but isoamyl acetate is the big banana of beer I believe.

You can't neglect the huge impact of oxygen on ester levels either.   Open
ferments can be very low in esters compared to their closed neighbors.
Kunze also suggests high attenuation is a recipe for more esters.   I agree
that temp and pitching rate are serious factors, but there are too many
"gotchas" for a simplistic approach.


 -S




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