HOMEBREW Digest #4537 Mon 07 June 2004

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  Welcome back HBD Digest ("Gary Smith")
  Thank Pat ("-S")
  Re: Malted wheat mash schedule?? ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  Anyone Going To Vegas? (John Palmer)
  Back on Line!!! (Jeff Renner)
  Re: "Anti-oxidant" burnt malt - not- and old beer (Jeff Renner)
  Welcome back ("Dave Burley")
  re:  oxidation & old beer/pt2 ("-S")
  re:  oxidation & old beer/pt3 ("Steve Alexander")
  re:  oxidation & old beer/pt1 ("-S")
  Flakes vs. Whole Grain in Belgain Wit (Kevin Brown)
  Clubs requesting restoration... (Mr Patrick Babcock)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 20:59:40 -0500 From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at ameritech.net> Subject: Welcome back HBD Digest I'm so happy to have the digest in my mailbox again I'm going to brew an ale tomorrow & Call it HBD.ORGriginal Ale Thanks Pat, glad HBD found its way home. Cheers! Gary Gary Smith CQ DX de KA1J http://musician.dyndns.org http://musician.dyndns.org/homebrew.html "I am." is considered the shortest sentence in the English language. "I do." may well be the longest. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 01:09:34 -0400 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: Thank Pat Well I had faith that Mr.Babcock wouldn't drop the ball. Sincere thanks to Pat for all his hard work - hard to believe he has time for a job and a family on top of his HBD janitorial duties. >-\n Is someone else joining the short .sig club ? -S Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 10:25:55 +0930 From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com> Subject: Re: Malted wheat mash schedule?? On Friday, 7 May 2004 at 13:20:55 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 4 May 2004 at 11:52:27 -0700, Steve Dale-Johnson wrote: >> Steve Alexander's post yesterday touched on a question that has been >> bubbling in my mind... >> >> <snip>On Weizen, Kunze suggests mash-in of 35-37C, and pulling >> 33-36% for a decoction which is eventually boiled for 20-25 min. I >> think that lands you just under 60C. Very high attenuation >> 'course.<snip> >> >> Is this for a beer using malted wheat? >> >> If not, for a wheat beer using a base of 50% malted 2 row and 50% >> *malted* wheat, What kind of infusion mash schedule should I be >> using? > > Interesting question. I don't know how many people on this list are > also on the German Hausbrauerforum, but I assume there aren't many. > This topic came up there recently, quite a relief from the normal > standard of discussion (using washing machines for mashing, or the > virtues of brewing with baker's yeast). Rolf Exner > <rolf.exner at gmx.de> writes (my translation): > > The banana flavour is formed in part from the so-called > "Ferulasaeure" [Greg's comment: for ae think that a-like letter that > this mailing list rejects; the name could possibly be translated as > "Ferula acid" or "Ferulic acid", but I've never heard of it], which > is destroyed [Greg: I think he means extracted] in the temperature > range 40 to 45 Celsius. Narziss [Greg: the ss should be another > letter that I'm not allowed to use here] states that the optimum is > 44 <degree symbol>. > > Later he writes: > > Ferulic acid is a precursor of 4-Vinyl-Guajacol, which is formed by > decaboxylizing this acid. And this substance gives the sensory > impression of bananas. Not all yeasts are able to create this > 4-Vinyl-Guajacol. No bottom fermenting yeast can, and only a few > top fermenting yeasts can. > > Wolfgang Halmich <wolfgang_halmich at web.de> clarifies in a separate > message that the acid is formed, not destroyed. Apart from that, he > confirms Rolf's description and refers to http://hobbybrauer.info , > which unfortunately is only a home page. With a little effort I was > able to find a search page, which returned the following URLs for > "Ferulasaeure": > > http://www.hobbybrauer.info/obergaerigerezepte.htm > http://www.hobbybrauer.info/downloads.htm > http://www.hobbybrauer.info/Maischen.htm > http://www.hobbybrauer.info/technologie.htm > > The third of these links gives some additional information and > suggests that ferulic acid is created only from wheat malt, though > it's not explicit about this. > >> More specifically are the enzymes in malted wheat any different than >> those in malted barley, or can I treat them as if they are the same >> as far as temperature rests, etc to obtain the desired body? > > Since nobody else has answered, I believe that the answer to the first > question is "no". That's only part of the question, of course. Well, it looks like the HBD list has been down longer than planned--currently 3 days and counting. In the meantime, Hubert Hanghofer (also copied on this message), the moderator of the German HBF list, has added his comments to Rolf's message: Biochemically you're right, but the aroma of 4-Vinyl-Guacajol is like cloves! Banana flavours come from iso-amyl acetate, an ester that develops more at higher temperatures. I know brewers who let the temperature rise to 28 <degree symbol> C--which isn't difficult, due to the heat of fermentation. I always get terrible headaches from such beers, and so I prefer the Wheat Beer types with clove aroma (4-VG). So I keep the rest between 40 and 45 <degree symbol> C, the fermentation temperature under 20 <degree symbol> C and use Weihenstephan type 68 yeast, which is available from Wyeast as #3068. Greg - -- Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 00:01:15 -0700 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com> Subject: Anyone Going To Vegas? Good God it's great to be back! Thanks!! Pat!! Who all's going to Vegas for NHC in a couple weeks? I will be there and will give a presentation on Water Analysis, Residual Alkalinity, and Mash pH, and another on What to Expect When You Are Extracting. The first will be partially a tutorial on how to use the RA/Mash pH nomograph in my book and my opinions on water treatment. The second will cover malt analysis sheets, etc. like my Zymurgy article by the same name did, but will also address lauter flow and sparging methods. (I figured it was a good opportunity to tie it all together.) Oh and lastly, I am a lightweight and a poor card player. Yeah. ;-) John Palmer john at howtobrew.com www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:22:39 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Back on Line!!! Brewers We're back on line! Hooray! Thanks to Pat for hours and hours of work. I've been in touch with him a bit over the last month and I know he's been pulling his hair out. I haven't seen him, but who knows, he may be wearing a hairstyle like mine these days. ;) Some of you may not know that Pat has been too busy with the rest of his life to brew the last few years. Poor guy has to drink commercial stuff, I guess. So here's what I suggest. All of you who appreciate the HBD and what Pat has done for it over the years, including rescuing it (with Karl) from certain death back in the 90s, send Pat a six pack of your best in appreciation (carefully packaged as for competition, of course). I've arranged with Mike O'Brien of the Ypsilanti Brewing Co. to receive these tokens. We'll get them to Pat. Please send them to (don't use the full company name on the label or you may alert the shipping company as to the contents; label them as "samples for analysis" if you have to declare them): YBC Attn: Pat Babcock 4 W. Forest Ave. Ypsilanti, MI 48197 Let's overwhelm Pat with our liquid gratitude. Cheers Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:29:59 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: "Anti-oxidant" burnt malt - not- and old beer "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> >Jeff speculates that the stability of old beers is sometimes due to the >presence of highly roasted malt and it's "anti-oxidant" content. > >I doubt that burnt malt, by definition, has any significant anti-oxidant >properties. However, it is possible that the dark malt flavors cover up any >damage that oxygen does to old beers. I'm pretty sure that George Fix suggested that dark malts actually serve as some kind of stable "sink" for free radicals or whatever those loose electrons are called, and prevent oxidation of other beer components. I'll see if I can find this reference. Briess has claimed in the past in their newsletter that their Carapils serves as an antioxidant. I can't find this on their newly designed website. This is a very pale grain, of course, not a dark one. I don't know what component of it or of dark grains would be responsible. >And George Fix is correct that beer in a reduced state will not ( by >definition) be oxidized. Duh. George wouldn't have said anything quite as elementary as that - I probably just didn't summarize him well. I think that what he said was delivering (dark) beer to the package in a reduced could result in remarkably long life. I think that this was in his O'Fest book. >The best protection for beer is to bottle it with yeast. Agreed. I tasted the counter-pressure bottled CAP we brewed for the 2000 NHC after 15 months and it was noticeably oxidized. I know we were careful to purge the bottles and bottle on foam, but it wasn't enough, apparently. (Any of you who saved them as souvenirs, don't bother to open them now). Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 09:01:35 -0400 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> Subject: Welcome back Brewsters: PatB says "Welcome Back" to us. I think we all owe Pat and Karl ( I assume he is still involved?) a big hand of praise for reestablishing this vital link in our hobby. Welcome back to you! Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 15:44:45 -0400 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: re: oxidation & old beer/pt2 I little background on oxidation is needed: The term "oxidation" and it's inverse "reduction" have proper definitions, but it would take several pages of snooze material and there are many websites devoted to this topic. In brief an oxidation-reduction (aka redox) reaction involves an electron transfer away from the thing being oxidized and to the thing being reduced. Often oxygen molecules play the role of electron-thief, but chlorine, bromine and many others can well. Oxidation does NOT require oxygen, but nearly all beer/food oxidation does involved oxygen. //NB: Except in rare cases (charging a capacitor from a chemical battery) all electrons remain in one of the compounds, so the amount of oxidation is exactly balanced by the amount of reduction ! The electrons aren't lost. Therefore we can only sensibly talk about one isolated fraction of beer becoming oxidized, while some other part of beer (often introduced O2 or oxygen from the freely available hydroxyl groups -OH) is necessarily reduced. When we say 'beer oxidizes' we really mean the fraction we are interested in oxidizes and the fraction which we don't care about necessarily is reduced. Oxidized chemicals *usually* also change their chemical form at the same time, but the defining feature of "oxidation" is that the original molecular components are short an electron or so. In organic chemistry the "thing" under consideration is always the original carbon atoms .. in food it's the carbon skeletons of a the carbos, lipids and proteins we must watch. A dead simple example of oxidation is burning carbon C, to form CO2. The original carbon has 4 electrons in it's outer shell while each oxygen (energetically) lacks 2 electrons to fill it's outer shell. As a compound (CO2) they share the carbon's 4 valence electrons rather unequally in favor of the oxygen. Note that the carbon is oxidized (CO2 is the most oxidized state of carbon having lost all 4 valence electrons), and the oxygen molecules are each reduced by two(each gains two electrons). Note that the carbon (which we care about) was oxidize, the oxygen (we care little about) reduced and the net change is zero. Most of the oxidation in beer and food generally does involve oxygen., but very often it doesn't involve free oxygen. The greatest redox reaction which takes place in beer is anaerobic fermentation and it uses no free oxygen ! Skipping along the high points of the Embden-Meyerhoff-Parnas pathway, the original glucose molecules carbons have an oxidation level of zero(0) by my count [the -H bonds lend an electron to the carbons]. The yeast apply some chemical transformation to the glucose and pry it apart into 2 3-carbon chains in the form of glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate which each have an oxidation state of 0 (the original 6 carbons still have a sum zero oxidation level). The phosphates is removed and the terminal carboxyls at the other end is freed as CO2 yielding two acetaldehydes(ox.level=-2 each) and two CO2's(ox.level=+4) . Together the 6 carbons now have an oxidation level of +4 (and the yeast have a lot of energy gain). The next step is a bit odd. The yeast are forced to expend energy to convert acetaldehyde into ethanol in order to balance their own internal metabolic redox level (else die of terminal heartburn). The ethanol(ox.level = -4) is more reduced than the acetaldehyde and this costs the yeast energy. The net-net is this, glucose starts at oxidation level of zero and all it's products together (2 ethanols + 2 CO2) have a net oxidation level of zero. The big deal is that the oxidation isn't balanced ... the CO2's flies out the fermentation lock carrying off a ton of oxidation (net oxidation level of +8 for the two CO2s) and the beer is left with a lot of reduced state carbons (-8 in the 2 ethanols). Fermentation is a HUGE reducing force in beer because the highly oxidized CO2 goes up the flue and the remnants are far more reduced. Several studies have found that the reducing action of fermentation can actually reduce(de-oxidize) some few oxidized flavors compounds (mostly aldehydes with a terminal C=O carbonyl group to alcohols with a terminal C-OH; same activity as acetALDEHYDE => ethanol) but this isn't effective against the oxidized lipids and with non-terminal C=O groups (ketones) nor the epoxides w/ oxygen attached to adjacent carbons. VDK reduction late in fermentation is worth considering too. A VDK (vicinal di-ketone) is just an organic molecule with two ketones(duh!)(ketone = non-terminal C=O group) in the vicinity of each other (at adjacent carbons). Diacetyl (aka butanedione) is the simplest and most prevalent example (a 4 carbon chain with the two non-terminal carbons being each a ketone group). Yeast reduce diacetyl to relatively flavorless acetoin by converting one of the ketone carbonyl groups to a hydroxyl. The other carbonyl may also be reduced to a hydroxyl leaving butandiol. This ability of yeast to remove ketone groups isn't very general so we can't count on yeast to clean up an oxidized mess. (continued) -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 16:30:04 -0400 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at adelphia.net> Subject: re: oxidation & old beer/pt3 (continued) As wort & beer is exposed to free oxygen energetically favored oxidation reactions take place. These are almost always flavor negative but vary greatly in the extent of that flavor detraction.. [Our noses were developed to help us avoid oxidized stale foods after all]. Some of these oxidized products have particularly revolting flavors and aromas and we humans can detect some of these at terrifically low concentrations - oxidized oils and certain oxidized peptide compounds for example. Many other beer chemicals will become oxidized yet have only a small impact on the flavor and aroma. For example the simple unoxidized phenolic acids in beer may give it a little zingy fresh kick, but as they oxidize they only become only slightly unattractive to the flavor. Ascorbic acid and free sulfite ions exists in beer and again give a "fresh" impact, but when these oxidize the dehydroascorbic and sulfate ions aren't particularly flavor negative. We arbitrarily label the chemicals which readily take on oxidation and yet have little flavor impact "antioxidants". These don't prevent oxidation at all, instead they take the oxidized state themselves and harm the food relatively little. BHA and BHT for example are just readily oxidized simple phenolics, ascorbic acid and sulfite have already been mentioned. *Some* of the oxidized flavor negative compounds in beer can even transfer their oxidation state to an strong "antioxidant" and thus reverse the flavor damage. In practice this can reduce damage but never completely reverse it. > The best protection for beer is to bottle it with yeast. As much as I loathe bottling beer, I have to admit that bottle conditioned beers have a lifespan that far exceeds any reasonable expectation. A few years back I bottle conditioned and kegged (unfiltered) the same beer, and it was just a few months before the bottle conditioned beer was far ahead of the keg in flavor. > As long as the yeast > remain viable in the bottle and the beer is under CO2 pressure, the beer > will remain in a reduced state as the yeast will take up oxygen and its > progenitors. My baloney meter just went off the chart again ! Yeast in a conditioned bottle will be 90% NON-viable in just a matter of weeks. Probably 99% in a couple months. Bottle conditioned yeast are essentially non-viable in a hurry yet the bottle conditioned beer will remain in very good shape for year in many cases - long after 99.9% of the yeast are non-viable. Yeast viability is NOT the issue. I *think* the situation is this. The closed bottle fermentation does a tremendous job of removing free O2 and reducing VDKs and other oxidized products. If the conditioning yeast have good highly impermeable lipid-full cell membranes (re-pitch w/ oxygenated yeast) then when they die, then they won't significantly autolyze and the beer will remain stable for a very very long time. Some yeasts autolyze more readily and I've had out-of-date examples of bottle conditioned Unibroue for example with a very bad autolysis flavor. This probably also explains why bottle conditioned weizens never use the weizen yeast (weizen yeast seem to autolyze very readily). > Like Jeff, I have opened decades old beer that was still good and it was > always beer that had been bottled with plenty of yeast. Which also brings > into question the yeast autolysis momily. Autolysis is no momily - it's very real and very very damaging to beer flavor ! The point is that autolysis is NOT the inverse of viability. Yeast can be live(viable), dead(non-viable) and also autolyzed (dead and damagingly degraded). In all I'd have to say that any consideration of oxidation damage to beer must make far finer distinctions than Dave permits. Beer isn't merely oxidized vs reduced, the hundreds of relevant oxidation carriers and several mechanism must be distinguished. Similarly yeast isn't merely viable vs autolyzed - there are states in between. Things should only be simplified as much as possible - not farther ! More poetically ... "Firewood does not become ashes [oxidation] and life does not become death [loss of viability] Just as the winter does not become the spring Every moment of time is self-contained and quiescent " -- Dogen, Here Dogen objects to the "become" process description. The more obvious and concrete brewing corollary is that ashes never become firewood, nor death become life, the states are clear-cut and separate, and for entropic reasons irreversible. - -- At about this point in any HSA or oxidation discussion some someone ventures the opinion that they ignore all he rules and their beer tastes great. To that I emphatically state: 1/ oxidation 'damage' presents only minor (yet clear IMO) flavor deficits in fresh beer. You won't have bad young beer if you ignore oxidation, it's just they you could have somewhat better beer with a little sulfite or O2 reduction in the mash. 2/ In the long run the differences are unmistakable and do constitute a clear deficit ... but this is only for several month old beer at the earliest given decent handling). Controlled comparisons of beer with and without oxidation & HSA care must be made to see what differences are available. "My stuff is great" is just another uninformed opinion unless you also know what a carefully handled version would taste like. - -- -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 16:52:21 -0400 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: re: oxidation & old beer/pt1 About a month ago, Dave Burley wrote ... > Jeff speculates that the stability of old beers is sometimes due to the > presence of highly roasted malt and it's "anti-oxidant" content. Malts do have some interesting (and horribly complicated) anti-oxidant properties. As I recently mentioned these have been studied in recent years (JIB circa 200) and one British company is now producing a malt specifically for it's anti-oxidant properties. Some of the Maillard secondary products, but also heterocyclic pyrolysis product also have anti-oxidant properties. Here's an abstract from BRI on malt anti-oxidant properties. http://www.hgca.com/default.asp?InitialPage=/research/DisplayCurrentProjects.asp that recites some results. > I doubt that burnt malt, by definition, has any significant anti-oxidant > properties. I can't imagine how anyone could come to that conclusion ! The pyrolyzed phenolics and heterocyclics of wood smoke are such potent antioxidants that we commonly 'smoke salmon'. In tiny amounts the wood pyrolysis products can keep the very easily oxidized (very foul smelling if oxidized) fish oils intact for many months ! The barley husk is similar and malt contains similar phenolics as wood, and the starches also create a range of heterocyclics when pyrolyzed. At first glance roast malt could be a great source of antioxidants. The BRI abstract above notes, "In the case of coloured malts, the taa [total antioxidant activities - sja] was found to correlate with colour up to a malt colour of 400EBC...". In other words the darkest possible crystal(coloured) ~150L is also the most antioxidant among crystal (coloured) malt. The researchers also note ... "For black malts (1750EBC), the higher grain temperatures employed during roasting resulted in a higher taa in the malt". My interpretation of the abstract (not having seen that particular paper) is that taa increases w/ malt color to abt 150L then levels out near that highest level. Roast malts are a different matter, yet these are antioxidant. The JIB paper correlates w/ this abstract in that other factors (the original malt's phenolic composition and the master's handling) are large factors. In the formation of crystal/caramel malt some of the Maillard products have modestly anti-oxidant properties, but in the formation of roast malts there are many heterocyclic pyrolysis products - some which are very active anti-oxidants. The abstract also hits several interesting points... late runnings contain virtually no anti-oxidants and are most oxidation prone. CO2 mash blankets and potassium metabisulfite were employed in this study to prevent this early oxidation and increase 'taa' > And George Fix is correct that beer in a reduced state will not ( by > definition) be oxidized. Duh. Then you & Fix & this definition are wrong. "Beer" is not a single chemical compound; if it was the statement above would be correct. Instead it is normal for fresh beer to be in a very reduced state (due to fermentation) yet it may still contain flavor negative oxidation products ... say oxidized lipids from stale malt or a badly conducted mash. No amount of anti-oxidant addition will completely reverse this flavor damage. As brewers we are ONLY concerned with the flavor (and maybe clarity & color) impact of oxidation products. We want beer to pass an analysis of the nose&tongue, not an ITT test for reducing power in a chem lab. The oxidation products of primary interest are those which impact flavor - and that's (thankfully) a minority. BTW an ITT(indicator time test) is a common food-lab measure of the reducing power in a food where the time until a oxidation indicator (a ferric ion based colorimetric test as I recall) changes is recorded. Numerous studies show a correlation between beer ITT values and the beers flavor stability in aging. Stability *doesn't* mean that there are no bad-tasting oxidation products present ... just that new ones aren't being formed. (continued) -S Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:12:13 -0400 From: Kevin Brown <kbrown at uvi.edu> Subject: Flakes vs. Whole Grain in Belgain Wit WooHoo the HBD is Back! A big THANK YOU goes out to Pat and any others who helped with the move! Sometime you just don't know what you have until it goes away. I sure missed this list! Now back to brewing questions. Two months ago I made an all grain Belgian Wit and I must say it came out great. 45:45:10 Belgian pilsner malt: whole wheat: rolled oats. I used whole wheat berries from my brother in-law's farm in Indiana but, alas he is no longer growing wheat. I want to make another and even keep this beer in my normal brewing rotation so I am curious as to how flaked wheat works in a wit. I know that it will work but what I am wondering will I get that great "wit" color like when using whole wheat? I must say the whole wheat berries gave me the color of a wit just like I remember while drinking them in Belgium last fall. - -- Cheers, Kevin Brown St. Thomas, US Virgin Islands Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:09:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Mr Patrick Babcock <pgbabcock at yahoo.com> Subject: Clubs requesting restoration... Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... Folks! If you are looking to get your website restored, please email me at pbabcock at hbd.org and no other address (I should have mentioned this in my original note :^). In any case, I haven't been ignoring you. It's just taking me some time to "discover" your note. Also, my personal 'puter - the one I do most of the HBD work from, decided to take a permanent vvacation last week Wednesday. Still waiting for the replacement to arrive, so most work has to be done from the dungeon - er, I mean "network room". THe dark, dank, close quarters hampers my efficiency. Please bear with... Return to table of contents
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