HOMEBREW Digest #4577 Mon 09 August 2004

[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]

		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


                  Beer, Beer, and More Beer
      Visit http://morebeer.com to show your appreciation!

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

  link of the week - becoming Einstein, one drink at a time (Bob Devine)
  Re:  I Hate Bottling/(but love)Coffee ("Stephen Alexander")
  CPF oxidation ("Dan Listermann")
  Chest Freezer/CO2 questions ("Jason Pavento")
  Re: Pumps - Food Grade and Heat Resistant ("Rogers, Mike")
  Counterpressure filling (Calvin Perilloux)
  Re: CPF oxidation ("Pat Babcock")
  Re: Re: Re: Re:  I LOVE BOTTLING! ("Reddy, Pat")
  re: Counterpressure Fillers and Oxidation (Tidmarsh Major)
  Cleaning beer lines (Calvin Perilloux)
  Melvico and other bottling thingys ("Jay Spies")
  Pump ("Jay Spies")
  RE: I hate bottling (Derric)
  RE: Freezing fresh hops (Steven Parfitt)
  more hating bottles, Prime Tab Sanitation (Mark Beck)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The HBD Logo Store is now open! * * http://www.hbd.org/store.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Suppport this service: http://hbd.org/donate.shtml * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address for the automation - that's your job. HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there. The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit. More information is available by sending the word "info" to req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning, and Spencer Thomas
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 23:26:28 -0600 From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net> Subject: link of the week - becoming Einstein, one drink at a time A popular, but joking, theory has been that alcohol makes you smarter because, just like wolves culling the feeble deer from the herd, the brain cells killed by alcohol are the slow ones. So drinkers have just the fast ones left! Hmm, maybe it is true. [NOTE: you may have to join the following two lines] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/ 08/01/nalco01.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/08/01/ixportal.html Bob Devine Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 03:03:57 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at ieee.org> Subject: Re: I Hate Bottling/(but love)Coffee First - Kudos again to PatB - he's da man. - ---- Several luminaries discuss bottle conditioning(BC) vs forced carbonated(FC) beers. ... >"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Fats may have been wrong in this case ... the flavor advantages of bottle conditioning are clear enough. I often brew used to brew a few extra gallons and then keg most and bottle condition couple gallons of the same beer. You don't need a triangle test and a statistical analysis to tell you that the bottle conditioned beer would remain in far superior condition for much longer periods - it's dead obvious ! One confounding point is that the two beers seldom have really identical carbonation levels and that in turn impacts aroma perception and foam/head and many other things. Still the differenceS are clear and the advantage always in one direction. The problem is not just about bottle conditioning. I had a rather nice FC vienna lager on tap a few years ago and CP filled some bottle to take on a trip. The trip never happened but tasting the unconditioned keg beer vs the CP filled bottles a few weeks later also showed the same sort of flavor differences I see between kegged and BC beers. Apparently minor air inclusion is sufficient to set of a marked decline. I am skeptical of the claim that bottle conditioning per-se is responsible for dramattic differences in mouthfeel, or effective carbonation. The yeast cells are nucleation sites and the foam active proteins and yeast both settle at a good clip. We typically exclude most yeast from the keg and in the case of long lagering the foam-head clearly drops over time as proteins settle. I've several times had the experience of kegging a clear and reasonably lagered beer ... the foam/head potential drops over time as more in-'keg lagering' occurs. Disturbing the keg can resuspend 'stuff' and dramatically increase head & mouthfeel.for several days, I strongly suspect that claims of smaller bead bubbles, and different foam & mouthfeel in BC beer are related to the suspended sediment in the pour.. Still in all - bottling is a PITA and an incredible bore w/ or w/o bottle conditioning. 750ml bottles with screw caps that could stand a few atmospheres might halve that work but kegs are the right size for all occassions.. Scott & Dave vote for keg conditioning of various sorts and I think that's the right track. > ------------------------------ Alexandre Enkerli replied to a coffee question .... Alex is right, the tiny amount of pulpy red berry around ripe coffee beans is about 15P sugar, but you'd need loads fresh beans to get a gallon of pulp and the pulp is reportedly harsh and has no relationship to typical coffee flavor. > No idea where to get berries but green beans are very easy to find. > Among the best known resources is: > http://www.sweetmarias.com/ Oh Alex - you forget that HBers are among the most frugal folk on earth, and SweetMarias has boutique pricing. Those who reuse discarded gott coolers found on the side of the road and buy sankes at a junkyards may appreciate: http://www.greencoffeeco-op.com/faq.asp for a good selection of green coffee beans at the lowest prices to be had. SweetMarias has a very nice website with reviews (and a nearly unreadable forum) while coffeegeek.com and greencoffeeco-op.com have more usable forum formats IMO. Nice folks all. The roasting process creates the typical coffee flavor but note that well roast barley can be made to taste rather similar to roast coffee with much lower lipid levels than coffee beans, so the brewing value of coffee is likely quite limited. -S{teve Alexander} Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:15:04 -0400 From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com> Subject: CPF oxidation <Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:44:01 -0400 From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: CP Madness!!! Also, there is generally a bit more pressure in the bottle after CP bottling. My hand-held unit usually pops out of the bottle after a fill - hard to imagine air getting "sucked" in with the velocity at which the filler propels itself from the bottle when I relinquish my death-grip on it! > After the counterpressure is released, the filler is withdrawn from the bottle. The displacement of the stem's volume sucks air into the head space of the bottle. Just watch the fill line descend as the filler is removed. Dan Listermann Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 05:19:52 -0700 From: "Jason Pavento" <jpavento at entravision.com> Subject: Chest Freezer/CO2 questions Hey y'all, I recently received a Frigidaire chest freezer and kegging setup as a gift and I have a couple quick questions... I will obviously be using the freezer for purposes it was not meant for (running at above freezing) and I have heard that can shorten it's lifetime. Does anyone have any advice on proper care and anything special I should do to keep it running well for as long as possible? Also does anyone know where I can get my 5lb CO2 tank filled in the Milford MA area? Jay, Brewin' Rehab Homebrew at The Boilover Brauhaus, Milford MA 01757 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:07:10 -0400 From: "Rogers, Mike" <mike.rogers at eds.com> Subject: Re: Pumps - Food Grade and Heat Resistant Michael asked advice on high temp pumps - Can anyone please recommend a good source for an inexpensive pump? Having ventured down this path a couple of years ago, I am very pleased my purchase from www.morebeer.com <www.morebeer.com> . H315: Pump - High Temp Polysulphone - $129 Description: After selling over 800 pumps we had the ideal brewing pump custom built for Beer, Beer & More Beer by March Manufacturing. The main factors we were looking for was a pump that was constructed of food-grade material, would handle wort at boiling temperature, take back pressure (flow restriction), and cost under $150. We chose to have the pump housing made from polysulfone because it is a tough, food-grade plastic rated to temperatures as hot as 250F. It offers many of the benefits of the ideal material, stainless steel, without the prohibitive cost. Mike Rogers Cass River Homebrewers Frankenmuth, Mi. www.hbd.org/cassriverhomebrewers <www.hbd.org/cassriverhomebrewers> Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 06:50:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com> Subject: Counterpressure filling Jeff Renner reports: > I have also noticed that most homebrewers do not vent the keg of > outside air once they have racked the beer into the keg and > pressurized it with Co2. Interestingly, most brewers whose operation I have seen will purge the keg of air by pushing a full keg of liquid out with CO2. Maybe it's a local thing. (grin) > Many times brewers are not pressurizing the bottles and venting > out the air before they fill the bottle with beer from the keg. You mean the reverse order, right? Venting first, then pressurising. That way, (most of) the air gets pushed out with the vent open before the pressurising is even done. I still wonder if there is O2 remaining in there, due to turbulent mixing of CO2/air in the venting process. Could that be the problem? However, I can certainly agree with Jeff that counterpressure filling with the hand models is a pain. In one of my previous house I had a specific shelf and set of hangars set up for CP filling which helped a lot, having a hanger/hook above the area, so I could hang the sterilised filler there in between fills. I thought I was good at it, and I rarely spilled or sprayed beer. Yet the bottled beer never did have the shelf life I'd hoped for. Now I usually just fill the (cold, wet) bottle from the tap on low pressure and use an oxygen absorbing cap, generally with good results. But my best results still come from the bottle conditioned ones. Calvin Perilloux Middletown, Maryland, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:54:47 -0400 From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: Re: CPF oxidation Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your CP bottled lager... "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com> wrote .. > After the counterpressure is released, the filler is withdrawn from the > bottle. The displacement of the stem's volume sucks air into the head > space of the bottle. Just watch the fill line descend as the filler is > removed. True, as Archimedes would attest; however, it is pretty safe to assume that the headspace prior to withdrawing the filler is CO2 rich, due to the sudden expansion of that gas with release of the filler. It is also pretty safe to assume that the beer continues to outgas during the entire operation; therefor, the headspace is continuously being enriched with CO2 - up to the point you cap it. After being capped, the resulting system will attempt to reach an equilibrium pressure for each gas on each side of the beer/headspace boundary. In any case, the amount of air left in the headspace after withdrawing the filler won't be that great. Tell me? Do you pasteurize your beers? If not, then the yeast in the bottle will take care of the oxygen that makes it to the beer side of the system - there should still be more than enough in the bottle. Over time, the system will continue to seek equilibrium, and the yeast will continue to take care of that oxygen - in any case, we're not talking a whole lot of air or, therefor, oxygen here. (And the oxygen remaining in the bottle will asymtotically approach zero with time under cap.) The headspace in a keg is typically an entirely different situation, having a higher head volume to beer ratio and a greater exposed surface area for uptake. Anyway, my point through all of this is that it seems highly unlikely that any perceived oxidation notes would be due to the concept of counter pressure bottling in and of itself. Poor practices in handling the beer destined for CP bottling is a much more likely candidate. - -- See ya! Pat Babcock in SE MI pbabcock at hbd.org Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:02:30 -0500 From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy at mavtech.cc> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: I LOVE BOTTLING! You heard me right, I love bottling! Of course, that's because I HAVE to bottle my 10 gallons I produce every month. My River Bound Brewing Club members expect their 6 pack (or 12) every month. I don't think they'd be satisfied with me dropping off 6 pint glasses full of fresh brew. I have used a CP filler in the past but find that it's much simpler and faster to bottle condition. I've become a real pro using a spring loaded filling tube - 2 as a matter of fact! Last night I bottled 10 gallons of Cutthroat Lager, a bottle in each hand filling 2 bottles at a time, in under 1.5 hours. Pat Reddy River Bound Brewing Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:04:31 -0400 From: Tidmarsh Major <tidmarsh at bellsouth.net> Subject: re: Counterpressure Fillers and Oxidation > Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 13:59:26 -0400 > From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com> > Subject: Counterpressure Fillers and Oxidation > > Commercial brewers induce foam > into he head space by "knocking" the bottle or blasting a jet of CO2 > or water into the head space. The process is called "fobbing." The > foam, being very rich in CO2, pushes the O2 in the air out of the headspace. > The cap is then installed on a bed of CO2 foam minimizing O2 in the head > space. Fobbing can also be accomplished in bottle conditioned beer. I've found that when I use Prime-Tabs (no affiliation, etc.), the tablets in the bottom of each bottle cause the beer to foam, and I can usually manage to get a cap on the bottle just as (or slightly after) the foam fills the headspace. Tidmarsh Major Tuscaloosa, Ala. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 07:06:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com> Subject: Cleaning beer lines David Perez reportedly dislikes the fun of cleaning out brew lines. Oh my, how can this be? Dave, just hang a bottle brush and a really nasty bottle inside your fridge, so every time you get ready to take on that tedious line-cleaning task, you'll be reminded that there are worse things than flushing lines! Personally, I like to completely disassemble my taps and line system and scrub the insides with a long tubing brush, then flush with hot cleaning solution (PBW), and then run sanitiser like StarSan through it. If you do this EVERY WEEKEND, you know your beer is being served in good shape. Yeah right! Every weekend? Yes, I am joking. What does help, though, is to keep the serving port clear, and keeping that spray bottle of StarSan or Iodophor nearby helps. And whenever I'm cleaning kegs, I make sure to disconnect the beer lines from the serving kegs and give them a flush with cleaner and then sanitiser, rather than cleaning only when a keg runs out. This seems to make it a lot easier to get a good cleaning done later on. And yes, once every six to twelve months or so, I do disassemble the entire setup down to the internal tap gaskets. Calvin Perilloux Middletown, Maryland, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:48:09 -0400 From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com> Subject: Melvico and other bottling thingys All - Skotrat opines thusly: >>I rarely bottle any longer but when I do I use my MELVICO Counter-pressure bottler.<< Amen to that. A good friend of mine in my brew club has a Melvico, and I used it to bottle a barleywine batch in Feb of 2000. We purged each bottle with CO2 3 times before filling (the Melvico fills at about 25 psi, and you can fill, purge, fill, purge, fill, purge with CO2 before the beer flow starts.) I also used O2 absorbing caps. I also pushed out the sanitizer in the receiving keg with CO2, and then purged the remaining headspace with CO2 after it was filled. After 4+ years I can detect no oxidation (I know big beers like this can hide a good bit of oxidation, but I'm pretty good at picking it up). I own a HopTech CP filler. I have since stopped using that after being unable to eliminate oxidation (and reporduce what the Melvico can do). The Melvico is a stellar little tool. Expensive, and a CO2 hog, but stunningly good at what it does... Melvicos are currently collectors items. See here: http://kegman.net/4482.html My point is that done right and with the right equipment, CP bottling can be done without oxidation. I use the Melvico normally only for big beers that I am unsure will self-carbonate acceptably (and when I can pry it out of my friend's fingers). For all others, I brew 12 gallons, fill 2 kegs, then use primetabs and a cobra tap to fill just abut a case with the rest of the batch. I push the beer out of primary with CO2, so I can use a cobra tap to fill bottles once my 2 kegs are full. >>Is it the CP bottlers? Is it laziness by the brewers to bottle correctly (Off the cobra tap) Is it the kegging process used by the homebrewer? Is it just that homebrew does not stay "fresh" as long if not bottle conditioned?<< Yes, yes, yes, yes, IMO... A quick question for the collective: What do folks think of O2 absorbing caps? Effective? Crap? I know not to soak them before use, but any opinions on their effectiveness in scavenging O2 from a taste perspective? Jay Spies Head Mashtun Scraper Asinine Aleworks Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:56:14 -0400 From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com> Subject: Pump All - Mike Sez: >>I am interested in purchasing a pump to transfer hot wort among other liquids. Can anyone please recommend a good source for an inexpensive pump? Any other pump purchasing tips will be appreciated. Thanks for the help.<< I use (2) Beer Beer & More Beer pumps in my system, B3 stock #H315. $129 shipped. Great little pump, fast flow, resistant to 250F liquids, and pretty quiet. It's been unremarkable, which means that I turn it on and it goes. No problems. I've seen 'em cheaper, but since B3 sponsors the HBD, give them a shot. Great service and products... Jay Spies Head Mashtun Scraper Asinine Aleworks Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:56:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Derric <derric1961 at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: I hate bottling > I understand that a bottled conditioned beer has more > active yeast than a CP bottled beer. ... However, a > CP filled beer does still have live yeast assuming > no filtration, just less, right? ... Or is it during > the act of bottle conditioning that the yeast > prophylactically prevents the oxidation from > occurring at a later time? I think the latter. A CP bottled beer has live yeast, but the yeast have "no food" and, probably, aren't using O2 very much. Bottle conditioning has yeast, O2, *AND* fresh yeast food, so you get yeast growth, O2 consumption, etc. > ... could you "bottle" condition in a keg (recall > recent HBD questions about keg conditioning with > sugar), then CP fill, *and* get the same benefit? >From my logic, I don't think you'd get the benefit. There is no added "food" at CP time, so the yeast don't do much. > ... Could you, say, add live yeast upon CP bottling > to improve the long term stability of artificially > carbonated kegged beer? Again, to my thinking, no, since there is no "food" the yeast aren't going to do much.... throw in some sugar and maybe so! Derric Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:42:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Freezing fresh hops >Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:31:26 -0700 (PDT) >From: Chris Locke <lockechris at yahoo.com> >Subject: Freezing fresh hops > >I am getting ready to harvest my hops and was >wondering why they should be dried first. Can't I >just freeze them immediately after harvesting? > >Thanks for any advice, >Chris. Dry them first or they will give a very grassy flavor. Then freeze them for long term storage. Compress as much air out of them as you can before freezing them. Steven Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 10:08:32 -0700 From: Mark Beck <beckmk at whitman.edu> Subject: more hating bottles, Prime Tab Sanitation I like to bottle condition a 6-pack or two each time I keg. In order to do this, I got some PrimeTabs, which I thought would be the perfect thing--just pop a few in each bottle, and then you're good to go. Problem is that they come in a package of 250, so I use maybe 10% of them at a time. Once they get opened, I don't know how to keep them sanitary. I bottled some IPA using a package of Prime Tabs that had been previously opened, and I got a small layer of film floating on the beer in each bottle, and I guess it's because of sanitation problems from the Prime Tabs. Anyone know what this is? I got the nerve up to try one, and it didn't have any obvious off flavors. In the future, I'll probably take the suggestions over the past few days to cask-condition my kegs (not force-carbonate) and then I can just directly fill a few bottles at kegging time. Mark Return to table of contents
[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]
HTML-ized on 08/09/04, by HBD2HTML v1.2 by KFL
webmaster@hbd.org, KFL, 10/9/96