HOMEBREW Digest #4592 Sun 29 August 2004


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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Pats asking for it ("Graham L Sanders")
  fresh barley (leavitdg)
  RIMS PID ("Martin Brungard")
  Re: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation ("Martin Brungard")
  re: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation (Michael Owings)
  RE: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation (homebrewdigest)
  BBBW update (Ken Pendergrass)
  Re: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation (Michael Owings)
  Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Drying / Adding Sodium or Potassium Metabisulfite for Chloramine Removal (homebrewdigest)
  Hop analysis services ("Keith Lemcke")
  Re: of RIMS, thermocouples, accurate readings, etc..... ("C.D. Pritchard")
  RE: Thermocouples & rims, etc.... ("Ronald La Borde")
  RE: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation ("Ronald La Borde")
  shank to tower conversion (Dean)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:56:50 +1000 From: "Graham L Sanders" <craftbrewer at bigpond.com> Subject: Pats asking for it G'day All Well one is finding out they aint as young as they think. One time you could bounce back from all sorts of youthful activities, from B & S Balls, where you are basically permanently pissed for three days without sleep, to having nuptials on the hour every hour. Not any more, as for yet again I have been out of action from posting due to my duelling with a bus and losing. The back decided to throw itself out. I now know what a pro goes thru, being flat out on my back for a week. But I blame Pat firmly for this latest incapacity. Its bad enough I am "sleeping with SWMBO", but Pats determined I "sleep with SWMBO" as well. You bastard!!!!!!!!!. Its on occasion that SWMBO will actually read the HBD, and what does she read, every thing from - Put some zip back in your love life, to - Attract the opposite s*x. Well that was enough for a poor bloke to be plucked from a computer screen, raced into the bedroom, and there she left me, flat out with a busted back. I'm sending you a free passport for entry to North Queensland Pat, with a free pass to enjoy the wildlife - even the non-human stuff. You'll keep mate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now what gems can I pick thru as I catch up. Paul asks on Liability insurance for homebrew clubs? This seems to be a problem the world wide. With everyone wanting to blame some-one else for there own actions, and then sue them, insurance premiums have gone thru the roof. Our club was forced to leave our local shop due to doubts the insurance would cover anyone drinking in the shop. And it gets worse that halls wont cover you either unless you get alcohol permits. Our clubs used to run competitions and meetings in our local microbrewery. We were covered by their policy, but it got too cumbersome, with access to fridges etc really restricted. But pubs, infact anywhere where alcohol is served is one solution. Hold the meetings there. We solved our problem by holding all our meeting at craftbrewers houses. As long as your insurance cover is up-to-date for the house, you are covered. And many peoples places, especially here in the tropics, its ideal. Huge outdoor areas, and many like myself have bars that are the envy of a well stocked pub. And on a barmy tropical afternoon/night, nothing beats a group of craftbrewers enjoying a few. Got to thank Tidmarsh for the Subject: Listen to your yeast. Now I have heard everything. You got bets I wont give this curry on the radio program. Now one doesn't what to make of an organism that makes more noise when alcohol is added, considering they excrete the stuff anyway. I recon the buggers are getting into party mode, and starting to really "get down" with the extra booze. Got to love a living creature that gets off on its own excrement. Now one was truly shocked Phil Yates has returned. I thought I am pushed him so far outback, I would see come from the Pacific Ocean to return to Australia. But on 20 minute mashes Phil is correct "I sometimes think some brewers prefer to read something in a book, rather than draw their knowledge from their own brewing experiences. ". I have to agree brewers dont experiment enough. When you do, you find out a lot of information floating around out there is at the least "depends on the situation" and not written in stone as people believe. Myself I am a great experimenter, and I have found there is a lot out there that people should revisit. I have done nearly every experiment possible, and many not even thought of. And I'm still doing it. (got a Grand Cru made from a most unusual method that is the ducks nuts). From mastering mashes with over 50% wheat flour, (they said it couldn't be done), to the benefits of home made candy sugar, (cant make a good triple without it), your brewing only improves across the board when you experiment. Yes I've done 20 minute mashes. And yes the results shows it can be done. In fact most HERMS/RIMS people get full conversion in 20 minutes. I find the finishing gravity finishes a few points higher thou with a short mash. Now I'm off to catch up on the digests. Shout Graham Sanders Oh I have got to thank Pat for at least putting me onto some cheap drugs. Pain relief for me, and slipping some valium in for SWMBO. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:16:28 -0400 From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu Subject: fresh barley Thanks to Fred, and Chad (offline) who commented on the fresh barley, and to Steve (online) for the instructions for malting. I have placed a few of the "Barleycorns" into water and they are sprouting,so I will go ahead with the 'spurment'. A remaining question for me is: is there so much protein in this malt that it will make a hazy, or in other ways, dammaged batch of beer? Perhaps a Lambic is appropriate to this "raw" aspect of Mother Earth ? Happy Brewing! ..Darrell [ having just secondaried a "Red Rye Pilsner" I am having a hard time waiting to taste the final product: 5 lb Moravian Pils, 2 lb Vienna, 1 lb wheat, 27 oz corn, 2 lb Cara Amber, 1 lb rye......2 yeasts (in that they were older in tubes): German Bock and Czech Bud, Yum! Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 06:22:08 -0800 From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com> Subject: RIMS PID Mark Nesdoly's questions about PID use in a RIMS can be answered pretty succinctly. Anytime the flow rate through a RIMS slows, the potential for overheating wort increases. At lower flow rates, the heater may bring the wort well above the temperature needed to denature enzymes. When I first created my RIMS, I used only an On/Off switch to control the element heating. It only took a few years of hit or miss mash conversion performance for me to recognize that I was overheating my wort. This was frequently the case when the grainbed permeability was lower than usual. I didn't have a thermometer in the outlet leg from my heater chamber in those days. When I installed a thermometer in the outlet leg I was stunned to see how quickly the system could produce overheated wort. I quickly found that trying to the manage the wort temperature with an On/Off switch was folly. I went ahead and upgraded to PID control. I have not had a problem with my mash conversion and fermentability since. There was an in-depth discussion on PID and RIMS about a year ago. Read Digests 4424 through 4431 for some pretty good insight. Some of it is even my own ;-) Don't be cheap. Get (or make) a PID and thermocouple for a RIMS. Martin Brungard Tallahassee, FL Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:11:24 -0800 From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation Michael posed a question about the care of carbon filters. I am a big believer in carbon filter use for brewing water chlorine and chloramine removal. Its quick and easy and doesn't involve adding any other chemicals to the water. The possibility for microbial infection in a carbon filter is very real when it is not in a constantly sealed environment. In the case of my brewing practices, the filter system is exposed to infection when I store it. Microbial infection is not a problem as long as the filtered water is not consumed prior to boiling. In the case of brewing, our water is always boiled. If the user understands that the output from the filter is non-potable, then there is no need to be concerned with filter sanitation. Don't ever top off a fermenter with un-boiled filtered water...its almost sure to be full of critters. I'm not sure if there is a practicle method of sanitizing a carbon filter other than heat. Chemical sanitizers would likely exhaust the filter's adsorptive capacity. Just drain all the free water from the filter housing and leave the unit assembled. That reduces the filter's contact with the air. Air contact can also allow the filter's capacity to be used up by air-borne contaminants. Since it can be difficult to know when your filter capacity is exhausted, here is a good way to assess the chlorine removal efficiency of your filter. A swimming pool chlorine test kit will show you if chlorine is getting past the filter (break-through). You can check the unfiltered water and then the filtered water to show the difference. A simple chlorine test kit is less than $10 and they are available anywhere with pool supplies. Another thing the understand about carbon filters. The volume of water that the manufacturer says it will treat is usually based on a flow rate of one gallon per minute (gpm) or less. Most hose bibs will easily put out 4 to 5 gpm. You need to throttle the flow down to get the best performance from a carbon filter. I have installed an orfice plate in my filter system to limit the flow rate. Since my filter housing is attached to hose fittings, I have found that a copper end cap for 1/2" copper piping fits nicely inside the inlet hose, next to the filter housing. Drill a 1/16" to 3/32" hole in the cap to provide about a 1 gpm flow rate. I also had to place a hose clamp around the cap to prevent water from leaking around it inside the hose. All these tips will make a brewer's life a little easier. Martin Brungard Tallahassee, FL Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:38:43 -0500 From: Michael Owings <mikey at swampgas.com> Subject: re: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation homebrewdigest at myxware.com writes: ====================================== I recently purchased GE GXWH04F water filter canister along with the FXWTC activated carbon paper filter from Home Depot. I have read a good amount on similar filtration setups on HBD. I have a few points I would like some knowledgeable / experienced readers to help clarify for me. [snip] I have a concern about the potential of bacterial growth in the tubes, fittings, etc through which the filtered water runs through. [snip] This brings me to my second concern; the storage of the filter cartridge when not in use. [snip] ========================================== I use a similar setup -- a filter canister and activated carbon filter. I generally only use mine to filter my brewing water, and then disassemble the canister and let the filter air dry. No problems for the couple of years I've been doing this. I'm not sure why bacteria would be a concern in any case, unless you intend to add the water to your beer post-boil. (In which case, don't -- or boil it first). After all, you'll ultimately be boiling your wort for a reasonably long period of time. This should kill any bacteria that managed to live in the filter (assuming they're beer spoilers to begin with). Perhaps spores could survive, but IMHO, concern about spores surviving the boil and ultimately infecting your beer are probably a tad over the top. Hope that helps -- m - -- Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web: http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:46:14 -0400 From: <homebrewdigest at myxware.com> Subject: RE: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation mikey at swampgas.com writes in response to my original post: I use a similar setup -- a filter canister and activated carbon filter. I generally only use mine to filter my brewing water, and then disassemble the canister and let the filter air dry. No problems for the couple of years I've been doing this. I'm not sure why bacteria would be a concern in any case, unless you intend to add the water to your beer post-boil. (In which case, don't -- or boil it first). After all, you'll ultimately be boiling your wort for a reasonably long period of time. This should kill any bacteria that managed to live in the filter (assuming they're beer spoilers to begin with). Perhaps spores could survive, but IMHO, concern about spores surviving the boil and ultimately infecting your beer are probably a tad over the top. Hope that helps - m - ------------------- I write in response: I agree with you that there isn't much concern for bacteria / spores surviving the boil of the wort. Ideally I would like to be able to add this filtered water (not pre-boiled) into my wort if necessary, even though I do full boils. I would also like to use it to rinse sanitized equipment without introducing bacteria. The main reason why I purchased the filter (which I can still return) is to filter out chlorine and chloramines, and to be able to use in without boiling it. If I have to boil the water (to remove bacteria) even if I use the filter what is the reason to use the filter since the chlorine and chloramines would be boiled off anyway? - Michael Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 16:47:23 -0400 From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at comcast.net> Subject: BBBW update Where is the barrel stored. Is it possible that the dust is coming from a joist above the cask? I'm in the violin luthier business. We see a lot of infested instruments. You don't want to contemplate the cure if you intend drinking the beer. We put it in a plastic bag with insecticide for a month or so. These bugs are after wet wood. I doubt is they would affect the quality of the drink unless one tunnels all the way through a stave and it leaks out. Seems like nothing to do but pretend it doesn't exist. Ken Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 16:26:47 -0500 From: Michael Owings <mikey at swampgas.com> Subject: Re: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation homebrewdigest at myxware.com wrote: > mikey at swampgas.com writes in response to my original post: > > I use a similar setup -- a filter canister and activated carbon filter. > I generally only use mine to filter my brewing water, and then > disassemble the canister and let the filter air dry. No problems for the > couple of years I've been doing this. > > I'm not sure why bacteria would be a concern in any case, unless you > intend to add the water to your beer post-boil. (In which case, don't -- > or boil it first). > > After all, you'll ultimately be boiling your wort for a reasonably long > period of time. This should kill any bacteria that managed to live in > the filter (assuming they're beer spoilers to begin with). Perhaps > spores could survive, but IMHO, concern about spores surviving the boil > and ultimately infecting your beer are probably a tad over the top. > > Hope that helps - m > > ------------------- > I write in response: > > I agree with you that there isn't much concern for bacteria / spores > surviving the boil of the wort. Ideally I would like to be able to add this > filtered water (not pre-boiled) into my wort if necessary, even though I do > full boils. I would also like to use it to rinse sanitized equipment > without introducing bacteria. Makes sense -- although if you use idophor at a reasonable levels, it really is no rinse stuff. I've pretty much given up rinsing it. Bleach is another matter, though. If you don't have a lot of stuff to rinse a can of cheap beer works well, and is sterile. If your tapwater really reeks of chlorine, I wouldn't worry about the bacterial load. In fact, I imagine for most municipal supplies tapwater is pretty close to sterile anyway. You probably don't want to add it to your wort, though. For post-boil wort dilution, I've had good luck with bottled drinking water (unopened, obviously), although once I almost mistakenly added "sports water" to a batch. > > The main reason why I purchased the filter (which I can still return) is to > filter out chlorine and chloramines, and to be able to use in without > boiling it. If I have to boil the water (to remove bacteria) even if I use > the filter what is the reason to use the filter since the chlorine and > chloramines would be boiled off anyway? Because boiling allegedly won't rid your water of chloramines with anywhere near the same ease as it drives off chlorine -- although this may to some extent be a myth. To get rid of chloramines in a large volume of water carbon filtration is really a much easier option, not to mention significantly more energy efficient. Additionally, someone (Kirk Fleming?) posted an HBD article a few years back suggesting that Campden tablets (sodium metabisulfite?) can be used for this purpose, but I haven't tried it personally. In any case, if you just have some equipment to rinse, it's a lot less hassle to boil a couple of quarts of water than it is to boil, say, 10- 12 gallons. - -- Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web: http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:14:21 -0400 From: <homebrewdigest at myxware.com> Subject: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Drying / Adding Sodium or Potassium Metabisulfite for Chloramine Removal mikey at swampgas.com: >Makes sense -- although if you use idophor at a reasonable levels, it >really is no rinse stuff. I've pretty much given up rinsing it. Bleach >is another matter, though. > >If you don't have a lot of stuff to rinse a can of cheap beer works >well, and is sterile. If your tapwater really reeks of chlorine, I >wouldn't worry about the bacterial load. In fact, I imagine for most >municipal supplies tapwater is pretty close to sterile anyway. You >probably don't want to add it to your wort, though. > >For post-boil wort dilution, I've had good luck with bottled drinking >water (unopened, obviously), although once I almost mistakenly added >"sports water" to a batch. Rinsing with cheap beer, or sterilized (autoclaved) water would work well, good point. I called about a water report from my water source and they told me that they did not have problems with microbiological contamination (so no bacterial coming in through the water). They also told me that they introduced between 1.2 to 1.4 ppm of free-chlorine into the water. This leads me to believe that my chloramine levels are not very high based on some of A.J. de Lange posts a few years back. >Because boiling allegedly won't rid your water of chloramines with >anywhere near the same ease as it drives off chlorine -- although this >may to some extent be a myth. To get rid of chloramines in a large >volume of water carbon filtration is really a much easier option, not to >mention significantly more energy efficient. Additionally, someone (Kirk >Fleming?) posted an HBD article a few years back suggesting that Campden >tablets (sodium metabisulfite?) can be used for this purpose, but I >haven't tried it personally. In HBD #3410 A.J. de Lange writes: "Boiling drives free chlorine off very quicky. The gas is gone by the time the water reaches the boil so that it is not necessary to boil it but rather just bring it to the boil. With chloramine a full hour or more of boiling was found to be necessary depending on the source of the chloramine. Thus boiling works with chloramine but again is not very convenient ... The most convenient methods of chloramine removal are granulated active carbon and chemical treatment ... Several sulfites will remove chloramine effectively without adding significant amounts of new ions to the water. Sodium thiosulfate(photographer's hypo) will work but I recommend sodium or potassium metabisulfite which is sold in brewing and winemaking shops as powder and as "Campden Tablets" i.e. it's a readily available food grade source. I Campden tablet should treat 20 gallons of water unless the water authority is really loading it up. As a simple test, if it still smells chlorine-like, there's still un-neutralized chloramine." >In any case, if you just have some equipment to rinse, it's a lot less >hassle to boil a couple of quarts of water than it is to boil, say, 10- >12 gallons. Does anyone have any knowledge about the differences between granulated active carbon filters and activated carbon filters. I know what the physical difference are, but I do no know anything about effectiveness, lifespan, bacterial resistance, etc. mikey at swampgas.com thank you for the great information. Could you please describe to me how you dry your filter (temp, container, fans, etc)? Also how long does it usually take to dry out the filter, and do you have any experience with storing it in a sanitizer. I could also treat the water with potassium or sodium metabisulfite. Does anyone have any experience with this, (rates, change in ion distribution, other affects on finished beer)? - Michael Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:00:14 -0700 From: "Keith Lemcke" <klemcke at siebelinstitute.com> Subject: Hop analysis services Over the last few years, a lot of homebrewers have become "home-based hop-farmers". If you are about to harvest your Fuggles, Cascades, or Galenas and you want to know everything about them before you add them to your ales or lagers, Siebel Institute offers a complete range of hop testing services. You can see a listing of our hop analysis services on our web site at http://www.siebelinstitute.com/services/materials.html . If you have any questions about hop analysis services, you can contact James Murphey in our Laboratory Services division at jmurphey at northlandlabs.com . Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:41:14 From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net> Subject: Re: of RIMS, thermocouples, accurate readings, etc..... Mark bemoaned thermocouples and inquired about putting a temperature sensor IC on the exterior of his RIMS piping and covering with insulation. A problem with this is slow response. It can be improved if thermal paste is used between the sensor and piping. The best bet is to put the sensor in the piping / in the flow. I use thermistors but the method will work for ICs if you file them down a bit. This helps the response time also. They are mounted using silicone selant in short lengths of 1/4" copper tubing which in turn are installed in the piping using 1/4" compression fittings - details at: chattanooga.net/~cdp/thermis/thermist.htm. A photo of one installed in a RIMS: chattanooga.net/~cdp/rimsnew/rexit1.jpg c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/ Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:52:19 -0500 From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net> Subject: RE: Thermocouples & rims, etc.... <<<<< From: "Mark Nesdoly" <mnesdoly at ouc.bc.ca> Subject: Thermocouples & rims, etc.... I guess where I'm going with this (and my reason for posting in the first place) is: why does everyone run a PID controller on their rims system? It's overkill. >>>>>>> I often wondered the same thing, Mark. The PID's most people use have all the circuitry for the temperature probe and readout; the control buttons; the output relay: most importantly, its already built! So then, for the same reason that most people buy their radios instead of building them! Ron ===== Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA www.hbd.org/rlaborde Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:12:27 -0500 From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net> Subject: RE: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation <<<<<<<< From: <homebrewdigest at myxware.com> This brings me to my second concern; the storage of the filter cartridge when not in use. If the cartridge is left in the water which was in the filtering canister could bacteria grow on it? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My first use of the new filter was as you describe above. About four months of use, I decided to open it up for a look. The rubber parts were coated with a whitish slime, and the O' ring had a bad odor when smelled. Since then, I open, drain, and dry the filter between uses. <<<<<<< Drying seems like a good option, but there will still be some bacterial growth since it would take at least a few days (3+) if dried at about 73 degrees F and slightly under 50 % relative humidity. Also I do not know if the filter can withstand repeated drying. Is it possible that it cannot handle this? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder the same things, and would like to hear from others who may have the answers. I think someone suggested freezing the filter after it dried. I can tell you this, my refrigerator manual suggests replacing the filter after six months of use. This would be for normal household use, with perhaps daily cycling. Ron ===== Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA www.hbd.org/rlaborde Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:00:14 -0700 From: Dean <dean at deanandadie.net> Subject: shank to tower conversion I have two faucets and shanks that I took off a kegerator bestowed to me. I would like to use the faucets in a home-built tower instead of the shanks and am looking for some guidance. On morebeer.com I see three parts - gooseneck, compression gromet, and brass nut (D1390, D1391, 1392 respectively) - that look like they may be just the ticket. Can I make the conversion with these parts? Any other tips? Thanks, - --Dean - Unscrambler of eggs - -- Quality Web Hosting http://www.3llamas.com Take your time, take your chances - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It matters not how strait the gate / How charged with punishment the scroll I am the master of my fate / I am the captain of my soul. -- Invictus -- -- William E Henley -- Return to table of contents
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