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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Brewing 5 Gals is a 10 Gal System (Monterey)" <meekerj@monterey.navy.mil>
  Re: Where is everybody? And a wort oxygenation question... (Jeff Renner)
  Hi Temp Tubing/Hose ("ddarity")
  RE: Not Oxygenating Wort ("Ronald La Borde")
  re: Not Oxygenating Wort ("-S")
  Oxygenation and yeast ("Dave Burley")
  Hi temp tubing ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  entering a competition ("Janie Curry")
  Canadian Red Vine Hop ("Janie Curry")
  Power Sparging (Craig Agnor)
  Spirit of Free Beer XIII ("Mark E.  Hogenmiller")


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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:58:41 -0200
From: "Meeker, James P FC1 (Monterey)" <meekerj at monterey.navy.mil>
Subject: Brewing 5 Gals is a 10 Gal System

First off, Hello. I'm a long time reader, first time poster. I'm a sailor,
currently deployed. I've been reading HBD to keep myself in touch with my
hobby while I'm away from home (Hampton, VA). I've been brewing for a while
now and I want to make the leap to All-Grain. I want to get a system that
will grow with me but I'm not sure I want to brew 10 gallon batches yet. I
also don't want to spend the money on a 5 gallon system If I'm going to want
to have a 10 gallon one in a few months. So my question is, is there
anything I need to be concerned about if I brew 5 gallon batches in a 10
gallon system for a while?

Thanks,

Jim at Sea
Rennerian Coordinates: CLASSIFIED.





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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:05:01 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Where is everybody? And a wort oxygenation question...

Dan Stedman <dstedman at gmail.com> asks

>Is there another homebrewing forum I should be reading? It's been
>awful quiet around here lately.

Well, I feel ambivalent saying this, but there is - the AHA's 
TechTalk http://beertown.org/homebrewing/techtalk.html.  This is open 
to all American Homebrewers association members, and is received by 
over 4900 homebrewers daily.

It doesn't have the same feel to it that HBD does, although that may 
be because I don't know the usual suspects the way I do here after 
participating for more than ten years.  Lately it has been busier 
than HBD.

The reason for my ambivalence?  As a member of the AHA's Governing 
Committee, I should be flogging it.  And I try to keep up with it and 
participate when I can.  But the HBD is my online brewing community - 
my "hangout."  It's where I devote my energy.  And in general, I find 
there is a higher level of quality of discussion.  There is a greater 
reservoir of expertise.

So if you have time to read two forums, then I suggest TechTalk as 
the second.  But HBD is the premier forum.

>I have a question - is there a consensus that you don't need to
>(shouldn't?) aerate your fresh wort until 12-14 hours after you pitch
>the yeast? It seems to me that Dr. Cone indicated that in one of his
>responses, but I think most homebrewing texts indicate that you should
>oxygenate immediately upon pitching.

What I recall Dr. Cone saying at the BJCP in Texas some years ago is 
that the yeast can use O2 *again* at that point.  It is well 
demonstrated that oxygenation is important at the beginning when the 
yeast is pitched, although, as Dave Burley wrote, it is also 
important to pitch yeast in prime condition.

Dr. Cone said that in many commercial breweries (I think he was 
speaking of Germany), the fermenters are double the capacity of the 
brew length, so they will add fresh, oxygenated wort from a second 
brew to wort that also had been oxygenated and which has a 12-14 hour 
start.  This results in a more vigorous fermentation than otherwise. 
BTW, this time is not anywhere near a precise time.

This (or a second introduction of O2 by other means) is hardly a 
necessary procedure.  I don't bother, but I do aerate my wort at the 
beginning.

Another technique of reoxygenating fermenting wort is the technique 
of "dropping," which is practiced by some traditional British ale 
breweries.  In this procedure, at 24 hours or so, the fermenting beer 
is racked to another fermenter with vigorous aeration.  This leaves 
behind break material and dead yeast.  one nice thing about this is 
that the bottom harvested yeast is beautifully clean.  however, it 
almost inevitably results in elevated levels of diacetyl, which has a 
buttery or butterscotch flavor.  This is found in some British ales, 
and can enhance the malt and "roundedness" of the ale.  However, I 
really don't like it at all.  See 
http://www.brakspear-beers.co.uk/brakspear_new_drop.htm.

(BTW, see 
http://www.brakspear-beers.co.uk/brakspear_new_development.htm and 
click on the the head brewer's diary for a fascinating day-by-day 
account of rebuilding a traditional brewery in tight quarters.)

>If this is the case, I wonder if not aerating until later is actually
>beneficial since there wouldn't be any oxygen for nasties to consume?
>I'm not sure that the nasties need oxygen to do their thing, but if
>they did it might be beneficial to wait to oxygenate until the yeast
>are prepared to consume it.

The best defence against "nasties" is to overwhelm them with lots of 
yeast in prime condition and to practice good sanitation techniques.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:56:49 -0600
From: "ddarity" <ddarity at atoka.net>
Subject: Hi Temp Tubing/Hose

Hello to the group!  I am looking for hose/tubing that will handle hi temps 
for my brewing.  What are you guys using that will handle boiling water and 
where are you finding it?  It needs to be able to handle a little pressure 
so that I may use my pump.  I am sure this has been addressed many times 
before however I was unable to get any results from the search option. 
Many Thanks, 
Dave - brewin again in SE OK. 
 

 


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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:00:31 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Not Oxygenating Wort

From: "Christian Layke" <clayke at wri.org>

>>Dave Burley states:
>>
>>>A better place to build strong yeast is in a stirred starter ( see
HBD

Since I have been using the stir plate, building up the yeast with two
feedings of wort, one two days before, and the second feeding the
morning of brewing, I have noticed a remarkable increase of yeast
vigor.

At first, I would stir, then aerate with an aquarium pump for four
hours continuously, thinking that as the yeast use up oxygen, more is
added at a constant rate. But lately, I have just stirred with a fresh
wort feeding the morning of brewing and have not done any additional
oxygenating in the fermenter. The result has been, well, the last brew
I split with a brew buddy so I had 2.5 gallons in a 5 gallon carboy.
The krausen blew out the top! That was a krausen the same volume as
the wort!

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde




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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:20:02 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Not Oxygenating Wort

Christian Layke asks ...

> I started to use a stir plate recently and have been impressed by the
> shortened lag times and vigorous fermentation.  As a result, I've
> wondered if it is still necessary to oxygenate the wort, especially for
> lower-gravity beers.

Oxygenating wort is not literally necessary.   Boulton & Quain developed a
method of oxygenating a cool slurry to a measured extent over a period of
hours and then pitching into unaerated wort.  This method has been used on a
commercial scale by Bass !

> On the other hand, commercial breweries must oxygenate their worts in
> order to keep the yeast healthy for re-pitching.

You're thinking along the right track.  Yeast require oxygen to make cell
membrane lipids, but they are capable of producing a lot of these lipids
(around 10% of cell mass) and then sharing these between mother&daughter
cells as they divide.  When the lipid supply drops to around 1% of mass it
becomes a growth limiting factor.  When any growth factor is limited the
cells refuse to divide and instead they expend some effort (if possible)
creating storage carbohydrates, storing lipid precursors,  and implementing
cell surface changes that allow flocculation to occur.  The cells then enter
a dormant state where their energy requirement (and therefore fermentation
rate) is quite small ... it's called stuck fermentation if it happens before
reasonable attenuation occurs.

Yeast will a full complement of these oxygen-lipids can withstand greater
osmotic pressure (high gravity) tolerate higher alcohol levels and will leak
less by-product into the wort/beer giving a cleaner result.  They can also
contuinue to grow at lower temperatures.  There are other factors involved
but cell membrane leakage from lack of lipids enhances ester and fusel
production.  One of the major functional differences between brewing yeast
versus wine and bread S.cerevisiae yeast are their propensity to produce
these lipids.  Of course wine yeast will tolerate much higher gravity and
ethanol levels and bread yeast grow at shockingly high osmotic pressure
without special measures.  There are many reports of properly handled
brewing yeast approaching 20% ABV (!!) but this requires special methods to
keep the lipid levels high.

Yeast in a healthy dormant anaerobic state, if exposed to oxygen, will
immediately use up their storage carbohydrates to build lipids fom stored
precursors.    They will use storage carbs in preference to wort carbs if
they've been pitched into aerted wort.   Having expended the storage carbs,
these yeast have a more limited storage lifespan and are far more
succeptable to cell death from temperature shock (either high or low) and
certain other conditions until the trehalose levels are restored.

It doesn't make a great deal of difference if yeast get the needed oxygen
just before or just after pitching (in the starter vessel or from the wort).
It does take a period of hours to fully oxygenate the slurry and then the
slurry should be held cool and pitched relatively quickly (i'd suggest under
24 hours tho' longer is possible) till pitched.

>How do they avoid the staling reactions?

They don't avoid it, they limit it.   Even without adding yeast, fresh wort
will complex saturation levels of oxygen (~16ppm) in a matter of 8 hours or
so.  Most of the O2 complexes with phenolic compounds (which may enhance
coarse bitter and astringent flavor).  There is also some sulphhydryl (S-H-)
oxygen bonding in protein.

The worst staling flavor problems seem to originate at two different times;
1/ in the mash(& maybe boil) and 2/ after fermentation is past it's peak.
The mash will complex huge amounts of oxygen by chemical and enzyme
catalyzed pathways.   This is probably when nearly all the fatty acid
oxidation => nonenal carboard precursor is formed.  a good bit of the
oxidized phenolics from the mash end up in the hot break.  The limiting
factor for mash oxidation seems to be the rate at which oxygen
penetrates/diffuses through the mash/air surface - and it's more than you'd
think.   After the boil the enzymes are toast and a high fraction of the
catalyzing metal ions are left in the break.  After fermentation has peaked
the CO2 blanket dissipates and O2 uptake and chemical reducing power of
yeast has passed and there are many byproducts of fermentation which will
oxidize.   Some of the resulting aldehydes are aweful, and familiar to
anyone who has sniffed a beer bottle the day after opening it.

If you add just the oxygen you need to wort (say ~8ppm for a 12P beer) then
pitch immediately, the yeast should complex most of that oxygen and the
fraction that forms staling compounds will be limited and primarily oxidize
phenolics ... which isn't the worst problem.  The yeast are happy enough,
but flocculate in a fairly lipid depleted state.  You have to take greater
care and probably repitch for the real hi-grav beers.

Apologies if I sound like a broken record, but adding ~20ppm of SO2 (in the
form of campden tables for example) has a dramatic impact in reducing the
formation of staling compounds.  The sulphite oxidizes to sulphate which is
a pretty innocuous flavor at these levels and far preferable to the oxidized
phenols, enols and aldehydes mentioned.   Some yeasts (particularly some
lager yeasts) will add 2 - 12 ppm of SO2 (not to be confused with the H2S
rotten-egg/home-perm aroma ) to beer which probably adds a flavor
preservation quality.

Robert Jones continues on the same line ...

> Dan Stedman asks if there is a consensus on wort aeration upon pitching
> vs. waiting 12-24 hours.

There may be an O2 uptake lag period if you pitch an *aerobic* slurry.  It's
actually likely but it's not well documented or measured.  There isn't a
great deal of harm if it takes your slurry an hour or three to start O2
uptake tho' you might consider waiting for an hour for an *aerobic* starter.

If you have an *anarobic* starter - say the flocculation from a starter or
previous batch which hasn't been re-exposed to air then that's a different
story.  The anaerobic yeast will start using oxygen immediately.  Several
papers have noted how rapidly anaerobic cultures switch their metabolism
after minor O2 exposure.

I think the real value of late (re-)oxygenation is when brewing high gravity
beers.  You can oxygenate immediately and then again after several hours.
Someone (G.Fix?) suggested re-oxygenation up to 24 hours as I recall.

> In a similar thread, and to answer another question about racking off
> the beer at the end of the primary fermentation, I've read many
> different ideas on when this should be done.  (I only brew ales, so
> these ideas may not apply to lagers.)  I used to rack off after the
> krausen fell back into the beer.  This often ends up with a longer
> ferment, with higher terminal gravities.  Those yeast on the bottom are
> working for you, let them do their job.  I wait until my airlock bubbles
> once every 1.5 minutes.  This might be a week, it might be 2 weeks.

Ther are several different reasons for racking.   It is sensible (tho not
necessary) to rack early-on, say in the first 24 to 60 hours.  This removes
cold trub, leaves behind dead yeast from the pitch, adds a bit of O2 and
removes much CO2 (which inhibits fermentation).  This is the "dropping" use
of racking.  Racking any later is for removing autolysis prone yeast or for
clarification.  Some yeasts (hefe yeast and some ale yeasts) aren't very
stable and the beer suffers from autolysis flavor if you leave it on yeast
too long.  You should probably remove such yeast at least once before he
finish.   Some yeast don't flocc all that well, especially at higher
gravity,  and removing the beer from sediment a couple times may be
necessary to get sufficient clarity.  If your yeast is stable & floccs well
there is no necessity for racking except at the finish .. and of course any
late racking carries the potential for staling.

 -S



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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:22:23 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Oxygenation and yeast

Brewsters:

Christian has experienced good results by using a stirrer plate to oxygenate 
his yeast starter. As I suggested the best place to provide oxygen to yeast is 
in the starter and to forego oxygenating the wort pre-fermentation to avoid 
developing off-flavors in your beer.

He asks for my typical starter formula.  I really don't have one as it is 
pretty impossible to pitch too much yeast. Here's how I do it.

I open a 12oz capped  beer bottle which has been stored in the fridge with 
washed yeast under sterile water or use a Wyeast packet - "regular" sized. I 
have on occasion used dry yeast and started it this same way.

I pour off the water ( in the case of my reuse of yeast)  and add the yeast 
slurry to a cool boiled starter solution with the same approximate SG as the 
beer I intend to make. About a quart ( Terry Foster uses a gallon for his 
ales) in volume, into which I have a Teflon(R)  coated magnetic bar.  I 
support the container ( most often an Erlenmeyer flask, but any smaller necked 
vessel OK) ) <above> i.e. not touching,  the stirrer plate so that the heat 
from the motor does not heat the solution. I typically use strips of wood 
about 1/4 in in height. Sometimes a ringstand for stability.  Turn on the 
stirrer so that I get some air entrainment ( but no splashing) and let it rip 
for at least 24 hours. If you are starting with  a small amount of yeast it is 
a good idea to let this starter finish out the sugar ( Clinitest), settle the 
yeast, pour off the starter beer and repeat until you have a substantial 
amount of yeast. This avoids having to produce a gallon or so of starter 
solution and ferment it in a large vessel, etc.

Let it settle in a cool place, discard the starter "beer" and if I am making 
a lager I usually rinse the yeast once with cool boiled water. Not so fussy 
with the stronger flavored beers, but I sometimes rinse in these cases also. 
Pitch the yeast into cool wort. Ferment. Recover the yeast from the secondary, 
rinse with cold boiled water, cover with sterile water, cap and store in the 
fridge until next time.

I know there might be some discussion about growing the yeast at the 
fermentation temperature, esp in the case of lagers. A good idea, I guess, 
but I don't bother, just do it at a temperature where it is active. If you 
rinse it you will not need to do a cool starter IMHO.

I use cotton to close the neck, but recently a brewing buddy has been using a 
foam plug, which I will try soon just out of curiosity.

Christian asks about commercial oxygenation of the wort. I have read examples 
of the Brits doing this with their ales and here in the HBD with some surprize 
about Budweiser doing this countercurrently, I believe. It is not necessary to 
have oxygen in the wort if you do as I suggest. You just risk off-flavors and 
staling reactions.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:56:52 -0500
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at spencerwthomas.com>
Subject: Hi temp tubing

Silicone tubing is the way to go.  Rated to 400F or thereabouts.  
Finding it is the trick.

According to a 2003 posting:

You can buy random lengths of 3/16" ID and 1/2" ID food grade *silicone*
tubing at http://morebeer.com and a variety of diameters at
http://mcmaster.com. NAJASC.

I checked and they still have it.  $0.80 per foot.

=S


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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:09:43 +0000
From: "Janie Curry" <houndandcalico at hotmail.com>
Subject: entering a competition

I've never entered a brew competition.  I understand that one might chose to 
brew a particular style of beer and enter it to compete against others for 
that style.  What if you brew something like I brewed this past weekend?  It 
was called an American Ale and the recipe came from the ProMash website.  
After locking ingredients to batch size (10 gallons), it called for 14.7 lbs 
of pale ale malt, 3.7 lbs of 40L caramel, 2 lbs of rice, 0.7oz of chinook 
for bitterness and 0.7 oz for aroma.  Well, we tweaked it.  We added 1/2 lb 
of dark brown sugar and made some hop subsitutions. We also fermented one 
batch with lager yeast and one with an American ale yeast.  What if we 
wanted to enter the one fermented with the lager yeast?  What catagory would 
we enter?

Todd in Fort Collins



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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:48:59 +0000
From: "Janie Curry" <houndandcalico at hotmail.com>
Subject: Canadian Red Vine Hop

Anyone familiar with Canadian Red Vine hop variety?  I'm trying to narrow 
down my list of rhizomes to order.  The new yard is only so big and I'm up 
to 10 varieties. Don't think I've ever seen this one in a recipe.

Todd in Fort Collins



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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:53:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Agnor <cagnor at pmc.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Power Sparging


Hello,

I've recently upgraded to a two-tier 1/2 barrel brewery with a pump
(similar to the one on Marty Tippin's page) and am trying to streamline
my brewing process to shorten the brew day as well as minimize lifting.

One area of my process that could use some revision is sparging.
Draining the mash tun via gravity requires that the wort flow down to a
lower container or kettle.  Since the kettle burner and mash tun are
at the same level, the wort must then be lifted or transferred back up to
the burner for the boil.  Lifting the full kettle seems a bad idea and
transferring the sparged wort up in smaller volumes is also a bit
awkward.  I'm thinking there must be an easier way.

Can I pump the sweet liquor directly from the mash tun to the kettle
(at the same level)?   It seems like this would speed up the process
considerably.  Are any of you out there using a similar procedure or
run into problems doing this?

Are their any caveats, drawbacks or limitations to actively pumping
wort from the grain bed into the kettle ('power sparging')?

Also, I usually batch sparge.  So, I usually drain the mash tun
twice to the point that the grain bed is 'dry.'  Are there any
problems with pumping the grain bed dry in a similar manner?

Any words of advice or warning from power spargers out there would be
greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Craig Agnor
Santa Cruz, CA




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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:18:14 -0500
From: "Mark E. Hogenmiller" <mehogenmiller at cox.net>
Subject: Spirit of Free Beer XIII

Plan now to enter the Brewers United for Real Potable's (BURP) Thirteenth 
Annual Spirit of Free Beer (SoFB)competition.

- -- The deadline for entries to be submitted is May 6th, 2005. So get your 
systems brewing!

- -- The competition will be held on Saturday May 14th at the Old Dominion 
Brewing Company in Ashburn, Virginia.

The Details

The SoFB competition is open to all homebrewers and will judge all BJCP/AHA 
sanctioned styles including Meads and Ciders.  The SoFB competition is
judged by experienced BJCP certified judges.  The SoFB prides itself on the 
quality of the comments made and prizes that are awarded.

Questions can be addressed to  sofborganizer at earthlink.net

Information will be posted shortly to the Spirit of Free Beer website at 
http://www.burp.org/events/sofb/2005/

Mark Hogenmiller
BURP Minister of Culture



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