HOMEBREW Digest #4789 Fri 17 June 2005

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  re: Carapils, Dextrins, Mouthfeel (SteveA)
  I'm looking for 6oz cappable bottle supplier (Doug Brown)
  dextrins,ciao ("PAUL SMITH")
  RE: Bernzomatic Cylinder (Steven Parfitt)
  Propane bottles ("A.J deLange")
  Re: Bernzomatic Cylinder (Dylan Tack)
  ETBHC is nearly here (Scott and Cherie Stihler)
  RE: Bernzomatic Cylinder ("D. Hopf")
  BJCP on fruit lambic (Dylan Tack)
  RE: Bernzomatic Cylinder ("Mark Prior")
  On Spruce Ale (Rod Prather)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:35:27 -0400 From: SteveA <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: re: Carapils, Dextrins, Mouthfeel Paul Smith writes, >Years ago, Dave Burley and I exchanged a number of posts on mashing >regimens, dextrin content, and mouthfeel. I was wrong, and Dave, I believe, >was right. Beers rich in dextrin content do not appear to be significantly >higher in mouthfeel, for a host of reasons. Firstly, the perception >threshold appears to be above that which dextrins alone contribute - i.e., >an increase in dextrins will not likely lead to an increase in perceived >mouthfeel as the mouthfeel threshold exceeds the molecular weight of >dextrins. Additionally, pure viscosity may not have much utility in >determining mouthfeel (Malting & Brewing Science, V. 2, pg. 840). > > I have NEVER read of any molecular weight relationship to dextrins wrt mouthfeel (and I read a lot). I think that deserves an explanation. Also I don't think you appreciate that a well attenuated beer may have 1P or less of unfermentable dextrins and a low attenuation 15P beer may have 5P of residual dextrins. You can't sense 5P of dextrins readily. Your reference to M&BS simply states that evidence for a relation between viscosity and mouthfeel isn't(wasn't) available. Sadly mouthfeel, or palatefullness or whatever you choose to call it is still not very well studied. I don't understand the idea that dextrin level doesn't impact mouthfeel. It certainly does impact mouthfeel and it's easily demonstrated. Go compare the mouthfeel of any lite-lager beer against it's non-lite counterpart and then against something like a light colored german festbier. There is an increasing level of a mouthfeel sensation I'd call "thick" ("syrupy", "body" and "fullness" are descriptive for this, but I wouldn't equate this directly to viscosity) with the increased residual dextrin levels. Thick mouthfeel sensation can be masked to a degree with higher carbonation levels and are more pronounced at lower carbonation level. I don't like var y"thick" body character much and it has no place in session beers IMO. Anything more dextrinous than a festbier is usually a once-per-session drink for me. Of course in addition to lite beers any highly attenuated (therefore low dextrin) beer will have thinner mouthfeel (Guinness, Newcastle brown, bass for example). If you can't detect the syrupy thick mouthfeel on your tongue you'll certainly notice the heavy feeling on your stomach after a few. Also note that all beers have considerable amounts of residual dextrins. A highly attenuated (80% apparent atten) beer still contains roughly 12% of the original OG as residual dextrins, but it's much higher, about 21% of OG for a 70% apparent attenuation beer. Of course this syrupy thick mouthfeel isn't the only factor. The combination of proteins, glycoprotein, CO2 and other factors which produces surface foam also impact mouthfeel greatly and in complex ways. Weizens are medium/low dextrin beers with high levels of these foam causing agents, and also high CO2 levels and weizens have very high levels of a sort of mouthfeel I'd call "protein mouthfeel" somewhat similar to a malted-milk drink. The alcohol & attenuation levels of weizens are similar to light lagers but the mouthfeel is night-and-day different. Also a high CO2 "tingle" mouthfeel. Glucans can have dramatic and odd impact on mouthfeel. I overmashed some rye once and the wort and even beer had an odd oily -thick texture, (wort even felt oily to the touch) which I believe is from certain beta-glucans. Beer contains very considerable amount of glycerin which may arguably impact mouthfeel. Polyphenol astringency is also a mouthfeel and not a flavor component. Beer has almost no free oils, but oddly the levels of oils in coffee are the primary contributor to it's "body" or mouthfeel which is not unlike protein mouthfeel. >Going all the way back to DeClerck, who conducted experiments on >dextrin-rich worts, he found that those rich in dextrins actually lacked >mouthfeel. (DeClerck, Textbook of Brewing, V. 1, pg. 262), and the common >denominator seems to be other components besides dextrins - principally >proteins or protein degradation products, b-glucans, and so on, including >alcohol itself - dextrin rich beers, having a lower attenuation, may have a >perceived lower viscosity. (Ibid). > > Sorry but I don't accept that "viscous" is synonymous with beer mouthfeel as DeClerck seems to imply. There are other factors. Note that larger proteins, increased viscosity and isohumulones are all quite foam positive and alcohol, FAN, small peptides and especially alcohol are foam negative - then reflect on the relation between foam and "proteinaceous" mouthfeel. >I have found that my mashes conducted solely at 158F result in a beer less >satisfying than those where I begin at 146-149F and ramp up over time. My >experience only. > > I agree with Paul's mashing preferences, but it's a matter of personal taste. Although there is considerable proteolysis at both these temp ranges we expect less at 158F. Probably the larger difference is in the creation of more unfermentable dextrins at 158F. In M&BS, (see HALL data pp 289, also reproduced in one of the G.Fix books) can be interpolating/extrapolating to show about a 50% increase in residual dextrins and a 25% -ish type reduction in total nitrogen (protein) at the higher temp(158F). Maybe Paul's taste and mine overlap - in that the we prefer the less dextrinous more proteinaceous mouthfeel impact from the lower temp mash. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:18:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Adelsberger <fuzzydodads at yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:18:17 -0400 From: Doug Brown <dbrown at prologic-inc.com> Subject: I'm looking for 6oz cappable bottle supplier I have six 6oz Corona Lite bottles that work well for bottling samples. I do not remember where I purchased these from originally, or if they are still produced. I am trying to find these, or possibly unmarked brown/green 6 oz beer bottles that I can use for beer samples. I did find a green 6oz bottle at morebeer but the bottom is a champaign bottom, flat is preferrable. Does anybody know of a supplier that carries these? Thanks Doug Brown Heinikein (sp?) also offers 6oz. bottles, they even include a sample of what skunked beer tastes like. My wife thought she liked heiniken at one point and bought a six pack (I think she just thought the tiny heinies were cute...) that I now use for carbonation testing to tell when a beer is carbonated enough to drink. I store my beer in the basement and it tends to take more then the usual 7 days. J Adelsberger Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:17:53 -0400 From: "PAUL SMITH" <pksmith_morin1 at msn.com> Subject: dextrins,ciao Steve A sent a PM my way (and, I presume a post this day on HBD) regarding my post on dextrins and mouthfeel. I'd suggest if anyone have an interest in this, they revisit the dialogues between myself and Dave Burley in January of 2000 on the subject. Cheers, Paul Smith Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 05:13:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Bernzomatic Cylinder Mark Prior" Querries: >Has anyone ever tried to create a small, portable CO2 >tank by back filling an old Bernzomatic cylinder? NO! >Are there any significant risks? YES! The Berezomatic cylinders are light gauge stamped steel and are not designed for near 600PSI from CO2. I use a 9 oz Paintball cylinder. There are special braided SS lines for handling liquid CO2. All of the fittings are 'off the shelf'. You will need a CO2 Transfer Valve (assembly) to fill the tank with. THe Transfer Valve is available from PaintBall gun suppliers. I got mine from my son when he got tired of playing PaintBall. It is similar to this one: http://rap4.com/os/product_info.php/products_id/228 I also have a 5# and a 20# cylinder. I get the 20# cylinder filled, and use the transfer valve to refill the smaller tanks. You might be able to get one cheap by finding someone into paitball that is upgrading to a nitrogen system (3500psi) from a CO2 system. Steven Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 05:30:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin <domino916 at yahoo.com> Subject: CALIFORNIA STATE FAIR CALL FOR ENTRIES! CALIFORNIA STATE FAIR www.brewingcompetition.com/2005CSF/ THE TIME IS HERE!! The California State Fair Homebrew Competetion is looking for entries. This competition is the second leg in the prestigious Anchor Homebrewer of the Year award. This competition will follow the 2004 BJCP Guidelines. All categories are open,including Mead and Cider. There is a three 12-ounce bottle requirement, and all must be free of distinguishing marks or labels (except entry labels). Entry fee is $8 per entry. Complete rules and info is available at the link listed above. We ask that you please register your entries at www.hordsoffun.com/hbc.rw/regwiz.aspx?w=0504070A28 This site will help you to easily categorize your entries and will even print the competition labels. Entry labels need to be attached to each bottle by rubber band. Upon receiving the entries, the organizer will send you confirmation by email. Remote sites are available to drop off entries from June 18, 2005 thru July 1, 2005. A complete list of remote entry sites is available through the link above. If you don't see one near you, please contact the organizer to coordinate one. After July 1st, until July 9th, all entries need to be shipped to: Homebrew Outlet, 5528 Auburn Blvd #1, Sacramento CA 95841. Final Judging will take place at Brew It Up! in downtown Sacramento, on July 23 and 24. Thank you Kevin Pratt Organizer domino916 at yahoo dot com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:55:27 +0000 From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: Propane bottles Filling a propane bottle with CO2 is probably not a good idea. Compare a CO2 bottle and a propane bottle. One is much more substantial than the other. The vapor pressure of propane at room temperature is about 125 psi. For CO2 it's about 7 times that so if you got liquid CO2 into a propane bottle you would be asking for trouble. Someone who understands the physics could probably safely use a Bernzomatic bottle to store some CO2 gas at low pressure but at low pressure it wouldn't hold enough to make it worth while. Cute little CO2 bottles are available. You'd be much better off with one of those (though the cost per pound for refills will doubtless be a bit of a shock). A>J. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:53:57 -0500 From: Dylan Tack <dylan at io.com> Subject: Re: Bernzomatic Cylinder > Has anyone ever tried to create a small, portable CO2 tank by back > filling an old Bernzomatic cylinder? Interesting idea. The common propane cylindars would likely not work, as propane has a vapor pressure of about 125 psi at room temp, compared to about 860 psi for CO2 (numbers from memory, may not be 100% accurate - but the pressure varies a lot with temperature anyway). However there is an oxygen cylinder that's about the same size, with a different connection (it has left-hand threads IIRC). Oxygen cyclinders usually have a service pressure a little over 2000 psi - though this is for the industrial CGA-540 type cylindars. I have no idea what the disposable Benzomatic tanks can hold. Also, it's probably illegal to transport your refilled cylindar - but it just might work. > Are there any significant risks? Injury, death, property damage, arrest, imprisonment, spilled beer - the usual. -Dylan Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:49:53 -0800 From: Scott and Cherie Stihler <stihlerunits at mosquitonet.com> Subject: ETBHC is nearly here The 8th Annual E.T. Barnette Homebrew Competition is only about a month away! This is an AHA sanctioned competition will take place on July 16th. The grand prize for Best of Show is $500!!! Great prizes and custom medals will also be awarded to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place winners of each of the seven judged categories. Note that shipping to Alaska is a bit more expensive than it is to the contiguous United States. We try to, at least in part, compensate the entrants for the higher costs by providing each one with a nice little package of goodies regardless of how they place in the competition. Last year we were able to give each entrant at least one T-shirt in their size plus a bottle of custom labelled hot sauce and a collection of beer coasters and labels from throughout the U.S. and Great Britain. We hope to be able to do so again this year. The seven categories that will be judged are: Bock (5A-D), English Pale Ale (8A-C), American Ale (10A-C), Porter (12A-C), Stout (13A-F), IPA (14A-C) and Fruit/Spice/Herb/Vegetable Beer (20 & 21A). Entries will be accepted: June 27 - July 13, 2005 Entry fees: Submit three 12-16 oz brown or green crown capped bottles and a check or money order (made out to Scott Stihler) for $5.00 in U.S. funds per entry. Judging: Judging will take place on Saturday, July 16th. Location: Fox, Alaska (a small mining community ~11 miles north of Fairbanks) More information as well as Entry and Bottle ID forms may be found at the following URL: http://www.mosquitonet.com/~stihlerunits/ScottsDen/Beer/Events/Events.html Should you have any questions please contact Scott Stihler at stihlerunits at mosquitonet.com or (907) 474-2138. Cheers, Scott Stihler Fairbanks, Alaska [2874, 324.9] Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:14:16 -0700 From: "D. Hopf" <hopfbrau at quetzalloca.com> Subject: RE: Bernzomatic Cylinder Mark Prior asks, > Has anyone ever tried to create a small, portable CO2 tank by > back filling > an old Bernzomatic cylinder? Dude, don't do this. This is not a sane way to economize. There is a reason that the walls of a CO2 cylinder are many times thicker than the walls of a propane tank. If you are thinking about not exceeding the rated pressure of a propane cylinder, it is still a bad idea. > Are there any significant risks? Death and dismemberment come to mind.... -= Dave Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:47:04 -0500 From: Dylan Tack <dylan-tack at uiowa.edu> Subject: BJCP on fruit lambic Here's a puzzle: 2004 BJCP Style Guide: > A thick rocky, mousse-like head, sometimes a shade of fruit, is > generally long-lasting. Always effervescent. Highly carbonated. 2001 BJCP Style Guide: > Head retention is not expected to be very good. > Younger bottles (less than five years) tend to be sparkling, older > vintages are sometimes less carbonated. Does anyone care to speculate on the reason for the reversal? The 2001 guide is more consistant with my experience. For example, the Cantillon Rose de Gambrinus has almost no head. -Dylan Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:51:22 -0400 From: "Mark Prior" <priorm at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Bernzomatic Cylinder >>From: "Mark Prior" <priorm at hotmail.com> >>Subject: Bernzomatic Cylinder >>Has anyone ever tried to create a small, portable CO2 tank by back filling >>an old Bernzomatic cylinder? Are there any significant risks? Let me clarify. I am not looking to replace a CO2 tank at 600 PSI. I have several of these but don't like lugging them around when I take beer on the road. My thoughts were to back fill a Benzomatic cylinder to a pressure of about 10-25 PSI. I'm thinking that might be enough to push out 3 gallons of cold carbonated beer over a few hours. This pressure is below what a standard 2 liter coke bottle is holding while it sits on supermarket shelves. Does anyone know what pressure the canisters are typically filled to? Has anyone ever tried to use one of these cylinders for a low pressure application such at this? Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:14:13 -0500 From: Rod Prather <rodpr at comcast.net> Subject: On Spruce Ale On the spruce tips. It's almost too late in the season to pick them. The ones you should use are the fresh light green new growth that appears in the early spring. They have less oil and the flavor isn't so much like Pine Sol. A good test is simple. Taste the tips you are picking, they should be sweet and tender, not bitter. You might be able to still find some if you are in the far north. Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:27:05 -0400 From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu Subject: Spruce Ale I am planning a Spruce Ale, and intend to do the following: 7.75 lb Pils 2 lb Wheat .25 lb Biscuit > > > > > - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.3/15 - Release Date: 6/14/2005 Return to table of contents
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