HOMEBREW Digest #4806 Thu 21 July 2005

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  FOY, 05, More on Methlyene Blue ("Rob Moline")
  FOY, 05-Tobias on Oxygenation ("Rob Moline")
  FOY- Extension ("Rob Moline")
  Running HCCP under Linux...success, anyone? (Scott Alfter)
  "Fortnight Of Yeast, 2005" Yeast starter temp. question ("GRANT STOTT")
  Two yeast questions ("Peed, John")
  Fortnight Of Yeast, 2005 ("Mike Racette")
  Response: FOY, 05- Wine Yeasts ("Rob Moline")

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The HBD Logo Store is now open! * * http://www.hbd.org/store.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Suppport this service: http://hbd.org/donate.shtml * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fortnight of Yeast 2005 - 10 July through 24 July * * Presented in cooperation with Lallemand * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address for the automation - that's your job. HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there. The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit. More information is available by sending the word "info" to req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning, and Spencer Thomas
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:51:53 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: FOY, 05, More on Methlyene Blue From: David Edge <david.j.edge at ntlworld.com> Subject: Fortnight Of Yeast, 2005 - methlyene blue Dear Dr Cone In the last fortnight of yeast you mentioned the methylene blue technique. I use methylene blue, but am not sure how long it lasts or what its failure mode is - does it make live cells look dead or dead ones look alive when it goes off? It's not easy to find so I'd like to use it as long as possible. Clayton: My experience with methylene blue is that it ppts. out with time and requires filtering. The protocol for producing the 0.01% w/v stain: Dissolve 0.3 grams methylene blue in 30 ml. of 95% ethanol and 100 ml. citrate buffer (pH 4.6). The stain is toxic to the yeast, so the reading should be made with in 10 minutes. We made fresh supplies frequently because we used it up. We never had to test the shelf life. I would imagine that it would be many months. - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 7/19/2005 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:06:06 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: FOY, 05-Tobias on Oxygenation From: Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com> Subject: Fortnight Of Yeast, 2005 Question: Can you please comment on the strategy of trying to aerate/oxygenate the yeast while they are in a STARTER rather than aerating the wort itself. (Please let me abuse the language and science a bit and just say that yeast need "a big swallow of oxygen" before they ferment beer.) I understand that this is exactly your strategy in the production of dry yeast--i.e. dry yeast can be pitched into unaerated wort because they have already taken their big swallow of oxygen. How feasible is it for a homebrewer to grow up a starter in similar fashion? Is continuous aeration of the starter required? A stir plate? If I have no stir plate, and no gas transfer equipment of any kind, is there a practical procedure I can follow to grow yeast whose oxygen requirements are already met? Letting air into the starter jug and shaking it, repeating this over several days, etc? Any temperature dependency? Any minerals or nutrients I can add to the starter to increase the yeast's efficiency at storing up oxygen-related compounds? Thank you for sharing your expertise. Tobias: As Clayton mentioned oxygen is absolutely necessary to produce biomass. So I would aerate your starter as much as possible (stirrer or an aeration system used in fish tanks.)As nutrients I would add a product like FermaidK or GoFerm who add extra nitrogen, minerals and vitamins which are necessary for biomass production. These nutrients also contain some precursors that are needed for lipid production. The best temperature to build a starter is 20-28 degree Celsius. The higher the temperature the faster you build biomass. If you use higher temperatures (28 C) I would recommend separate the yeast from the media as much as possible (decanting) because at this high temperature you build up a lot of higher alcohols and esters which you don't want in your beer. If you want to pitch your yeast without aerating the wort you need to prep your yeast in the starter for that. Aerate well so that the yeast can build enough unsaturated fatty acids. There are commercial breweries who aerate the yeast before pitching and not the wort. They believe they can increase the flavor stability of their beer this way. Tobias - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 7/19/2005 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:46:09 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: FOY- Extension FOY- Extension Secondary to the unfortunate problems of the hbd server, the FOY panel has graciously offered to extend their efforts though the 29th of July, 05. Cheers! Rob "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 7/19/2005 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:07:09 -0700 From: Scott Alfter <scott at alfter.us> Subject: Running HCCP under Linux...success, anyone? As part of an effort to move more of my everyday computing away from Windows and toward Linux, I've tried getting the homebrewing-related software I use working under Linux. ProMash actually works pretty well under Wine (with some table-formatting glitches, but that's all). HCCP, OTOH, has been a bit more troublesome. The error message it produces under Wine indicates that it's crashing in a call to GetCommState; the description of this function provided by MSDN lead me to think it's trying to do something with the serial ports that don't exist on my computer. (I've not tried running it under WinXP on the same machine to see if the problem shows up there as well.) The author of HCCP mentioned at a conference session in Baltimore that the program stands a pretty good chance of getting ported to Linux and/or Mac OS X at some point, but I figured I'd let Wine have a shot at running the Windows version that's already out. (More specifically, this is the error returned by Wine: err:comm:GetCommState tcgetattr or ioctl error 'Invalid argument' This leads into an unhandled exception, which then spews out a bunch of diagnostic information.) Has anyone else had better luck getting HCCP running under Linux? I have a competition coming up in a couple of months and can run it under WinXP if necessary, but getting it working under Linux would be better. _/_ Scott Alfter / v \ Visit the SNAFU website today! (IIGS( http://snafu.alfter.us/ Top-posting! \_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet? Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:12:53 +1000 From: "GRANT STOTT" <gstott at iprimus.com.au> Subject: "Fortnight Of Yeast, 2005" Yeast starter temp. question Thanks again to those responsible for this valuable contribution to "craftbrewing" knowledge. My question might have obvious answers for some readers but here goes anyway. When making a starter for an ale with liquid yeast the instructions are typically to keep the starter at 20-24degC. I realise that this helps build up yeast numbers quickly, which is usually part of the goal. My question is :- does doing an ale yeast starter at say 14 deg C have any detrimental effects on the health or viability of the yeast produced? Or to put it another way are there downsides to doing low temperature starters other than the obvious lengthened time taken to build up a large population. Thanks Grant Stott [9906, 260] AR (statute miles) or [15942.2, 260] AR [Km] (Australia) - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/53 - Release Date: 20/07/05 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:44:07 -0700 From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com> Subject: Two yeast questions My favorite yeast is Wyeast 1028 London. It can be a bit of a slow starter, but once it gets going it performs very well. Recently I had a batch of beer using 1028 throw a lot of sulfur on days 2 and 3 of fermentation. This yeast has never done that before and there was nothing abnormal about the batch - it was an average, well oxygenated wort, pitched with a healthy 2 quart starter (decanted) and the beer temperature was 68 degrees. I know that some yeasts are prone to throwing sulfur and cooler fermentations encourage it, but what would cause this uncharacteristic behavior with this yeast? The beer turned out fine, by the way. Second, sometimes a yeast starter will turn to what looks like egg drop soup when it's been on the stir plate for a while. If the stir plate is turned off, the yeast settles out almost immediately. Is this just normal flocculation? John Peed Oak Ridge, TN Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:03:01 -0400 From: "Mike Racette" <mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com> Subject: Fortnight Of Yeast, 2005 Can you please discuss the advantages/disadvantages of pitching onto an existing yeast cake (assuming the cake, and previous beer, smelled and tasted clean). Specifically, I have seen it argued that while there may be obvious advantages such as no starter prep, less cleaning, and perhaps a shorter lag time, there may be negative effects created due to too many old or dead yeast cells, or perhaps maybe even problems with over-pitching? How might using an existing yeast cake affect the taste and quality of the resulting beer. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:33:33 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Response: FOY, 05- Wine Yeasts Response: FOY, 05- Wine Yeasts In today's response on the question of whether there are more or less "beer yeasts" these days, Dr. Cone mentioned that many yeasts currently considered to be "wine yeasts" may produce excellent beer. In his book "Farmhouse Ales," Phil Markowski reports that it is speculated that the primary Dupont strain descends from red wine yeast. He also reports that fermentation at Dupont is similar to red wine fermentation in many ways (temperature, duration, philosophy). So experimenting with wine yeasts is something I've been thinking about a bit. Can you elaborate on this? Are there specific strains marketed by your company that would be good candidates for experimentation? Are there any "red flags" or "green lights" that one should look for in commercial descriptions of wine yeasts, when trying to identify strains for experimenting? Is it likely that most wine yeasts will lead to estery, Belgian-style flavors? Finally, are there specific wine yeasts you know of that give brettanomyces-like leathery flavors, but in a more controlled or predictable way than a pure brett culture would? I greatly appreciate any guidance you can give. Thanks, Matt Clayton: Matt, Thank you for showing an interest in exploring wine yeast for brewing. There are two basic test that usually separate beer yeast from wine yeast: 1. Phenol off flavor or POF test. Most beer yeast are POF negative. A few of the wine yeast that I have tested were POF positive. 2. Ability to ferment maltotriose. Beer yeast usually can ferment maltotriose, most wine yeast cannot. To me there is no big deal if the yeast cannot ferment the maltotriose. The mashing procedure can minimize the amount of maltotriose present in the wort and the unfermented maltotriose just gives you more body, mouth feel and perhaps a slight sweetness. I am sure that there are more fermentation characteristics that tend to separate wine from beer yeast. There is one very famous wine yeast that is both POF negative and can ferment maltotriose. It is probably the largest selling wine yeast strain in the world. It is Lalvin K1-V1116. It was used in a beer kit for several years and it was the yeast of choice in a Canadian brew pub for several years. For those that produce garlic beer, honey beer, cherry beer, pumpkin beer, etc. I would think that you would be willing to experiment with Lalvin 71B-1112, wine yeast, that is used for the production of Nouveau Beaujolais wine in the Beaujolais region of France. The fruity nose definitely comes through in the beer. A purest would not like it, but someone looking for a new style beer might like it. I liked it. It was not my favorite in the tasting, however, I would have ordered a second glass. Let me know if you try any of the wine yeast for brewing and the results. I am not aware of any safe brett type yeast. Tobias: In addition to Claytons response... there are a couple of breweries that use Champagne yeast for their wheat beers which results in a more fruity wine like flavour that is apparently more appreciated by women. There were also two breweries in Germany who used the Lalvin 71B in their wheat beer and got a slight peach flavour. Because these wine strains don't use maltotriose as Clayton mentioned these breweries used the wine yeast together with their regular culture yeast. But you have to be careful because some wine yeast possess a "killer" factor which may kill your brewing strain. Lalvin 71B is a safe choice because it does not have this factor. Tobias - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/55 - Release Date: 7/21/2005 Return to table of contents
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