HOMEBREW Digest #4815 Mon 01 August 2005

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  Cleaning a Counter Flow Wort Chiller ("Williams, Rowan")
  Kola and Drinks (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Re: metabisulfite and modern  Coca Cola ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  FOY, comments & a question in dropping/rousing. ("-S")
  RE: Subject: Coke (Steven Parfitt)
  RES*BSCRIBE NOW: Temporary release of UCE Blacklists ("Pat Babcock")
  ballentine fermentation temp (homebre973)
  Coke: heresay and rumors (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Re: Brewtek CL920 yeast (stencil)
  Response: FOY,05 -  Acetate Regulation ("Rob Moline")
  Fortnight Of Yeast-2005-Concludes ("Rob Moline")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:50:35 +1000 From: "Williams, Rowan" <Rowan.Williams at ag.gov.au> Subject: Cleaning a Counter Flow Wort Chiller Had a quick search on HBD and didn't find an all encompassing answer so here goes... I have a brand new Counterflow chiller that I hope to fire up in anger later this week! It's a copper pipe wort inner with nylex hose outer. I need to get cold water hose fittings (I'll use reinforced hose with SS clamps for the wort transfer), but of more concern is how should I clean the virgin copper wort pipe before use? I have a tub of Bottle wash salts, some "Neo Pink" cleaner/steriliser, Sod Met, a bottle of Iodophor and some Oxonia as well as a pack of el cheapo powdered Bleach in the brewery cupboard as my cleaning gear. I want to make sure that the copper wort tube is inert and clean (there is a blue coloured dribble mark on the outside of the wort tube - been there since I bought it - probably got there when it was tested) so what should I run through this to make sure that the copper colour in the beer is from the grains and not the chiller!? And finally - is it true that you connect the water in at the opposite end of the wort in (is that the counterflow part)??? Cheers, Rowan Williams Canberra Brewers Club [9588.6, 261.5] AR (statute miles) - ----------------------------------------------------------------- If you have received this transmission in error please notify us immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies. If this e-mail or any attachments have been sent to you in error, that error does not constitute waiver of any confidentiality, privilege or copyright in respect of information in the e-mail or attachments. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 00:23:01 -0400 From: Alexandre Enkerli <enkerli at gmail.com> Subject: Kola and Drinks At the risk of belaboring the Coke thread... Coca-Cola in Mali is quite different from North American or European Coke. Actually, it's very noticeably different from Coke made in South Africa. Drank one can of South African Coke in Bamako after drinking bottles of locally-made Coca-Cola (in part on a physician's recommendation!) and the difference was quite striking. Malian Coca-Cola did seem to have something of a kola taste. Ah... Kola nuts. Not necessarily tasty as if they were a food or anything. But they give you a nice sensation. Not just because of the caffeine but there's something of a freshness after you've been chewing them. Kola nuts are quite prominent as gifts in West Africa. In Mande languages, /worotan/ ("ten kola nuts") stands for a specific type of offering with heavy social significance. Oumou Sangare sings about worotan in relation to marriage practices. AFAIK, kola nuts are not used locally in drinks. Speaking of which... Did anyone try brewing anything with kola nuts? They're somewhat hard to find here but they could make an interesting brew. Maybe it'd be similar to guarana but, then again, maybe not. AleX in Montreal [555.1km, 62.8] ApparentRennerianCoordinates Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:17:49 +0930 From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com> Subject: Re: metabisulfite and modern Coca Cola On Saturday, 30 July 2005 at 8:13:06 -0400, Dave Burley wrote: > > Dutch beers are brewed differently for the export market. Stella Artois > tastes differently in France than it does in Germany. I trust you're not suggesting that Stella Artois is Dutch beer. That's risking the ire of the Dutch, the Belgians, and all lovers of good beer :-) Does anybody know if they market Stella in Germany? I've never seen it there. On a more serious note, I recently found myself thirsty in Canberra, and went into a bottle shop and bought a 6-pack of something purporting to be Pilsenr Urquell. It tasted completely different. I've kept a couple of bottles, which I'll drink under controlled conditions with others who understand beer. My first feeling was that they had added British-style crystal malt. It was also darker than I recall from the Czech republic, and it had almost no head. Greg - -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 07:18:40 -0400 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: FOY, comments & a question in dropping/rousing. Sincere thanks (in advance) for all the great info so far on FOY. I'm only sorry that time doesn't permit greater participation. > Subject: FOY, 05 - Yeast stress response question for Chris Powell Hat's off to Chris Powell and Alan Meeker - I learned something I'll probably be puzzling over for the next several years, and there is no greater gift than a good puzzle. Dave Burley brings up a point that caught my eye early on ... > Subject: Further Response: FOY, 05-Crabtree effect and Overflow Metabolism DB> Clayton Cone has explained that if have more than 0.2% glucose in our DB> starters [...] CC> Response: CC> I am glad that you asked this question because I did not wish to imply CC> that there would be no cell wall improvement even in the presence of CC> oxygen at >0.2% sugar. When the wort has more than >0.2% sugar, the CC> function of the O2 is to assist the yeast in producing lipids. [...] > Clayton Cone This puzzles me. The Crabtree effect is the repression of respiration in the presence of *GLUCOSE* concentration above a critical threshold. The reference to "sugars" generally implies that wort will supress respiration until the very end of fermentation however I see no evidence that the major wort sugars, maltose, maltotriose, can produce Crabtree effect. Malting&Brewing Science vol2, pp593-594 dicusses Crabtree threshold as 0.4% w/v of glucose table and 17.6 indicates that other monosaccharides (fructose, mannose, galactose) repress respiration but less effectively than glucose. Baking yeast (also a Saccharomyces cereviae which exhibit Crabtree) is grown in an aerobic sucrose media which does not supress respiration. Normal 12P all malt wort has roughly 1%(1P) of monosaccharides with glucose as the most prominant and another roughly 7P of fermentable polysaccharides. I assume the Crabtree effect ceases to be a factor when the monosaccharide level drops below the threshold. If monsaccharides are fermented first then Crabtree ceases to influence yeast metabolism after about 10% of attenuation has taken place for all-malt wort. This issue has a practical brewing consequence and leads to a question. Homebrewers often use one of two distinct methods of yeast "rousing" to improve attenuation with finicky top fermenting yeasts and both seem somewhat effective. The traditional British practice of "dropping" or transfer of fermenting wort at 24-36 hours into fermentation (M&BS pp 668-670) is practiced by some and this certainly causes some oxygen inclusion. Alternatively many Homebrewers practice some form of "rousing" by shaking and stirring airlocked fermenters. My hunch is that "dropping" aeration during active fermentation improves yeast sterol levels to some extent, but I also expect that Crabtree repression of respiration is absent after 24 hours of fermentation, so perhaps another impact, of "dropping" is to permit mitochondrial development by limited respiration for some flavor advantage. Please comment; what is the expected impact of this "dropping" aeration ? The second form of "rousing" presents another question; how does the shaking of air-locked fermenters late into fermentation improve attenuation ? A dubious but common explanations for this are that shaking "resuspends" flocculated yeast or else mixes the remaining fermentables bringing these into greater yeast contact. Neither explanation is satisfactory. Yeast flocculate when growth conditions are absent and generally will not deflocculate until growth conditions are re-established. Also no significant "fermentable" gradient is likely to appear in a 10 gallon fermenter. My hunch is that the removal of CO2 by shaking causes the improvement attenuation. Please comment. p.s. The original reply by Dr.Cone regarding Crabtree included a typo that cell walls rather than cell membranes benefit from the oxygen product sterols. Cell walls are the mannose-protein "skeleton" covered with chitinous bud scars, while cell membranes are the soft lipid-bilayer structure that we all (should have) learned about in HS biology [ see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_bilayer ]. -SteveA Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:08:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Subject: Coke Just my 2 cents on the coke issue. I bleive this follows with a lot of other products in the US. I remember tasting the New Coke when it was introduced (although I don't remember the year) and it didn't have that zing that the original had. I suspect that this was when coke switched to HFCS, but due to rejection by the market in general they re-introduced "Coke Classic". My suspission is that "Coke Classic" has evolved over time to eliminate the Classic and substitute HFCS as a cost saving measure. I fondly remember the taste of coke up thorough the early 1970s when we used to "pull for cokes". We would check the bottom of the bottle to see who's bottle was manufactured farthest away and every one would pitch in a dollar with the person holding the most distant bottle taking the pot. Coke had a sharp sting when it was ice cold, so sharp it would almost feel like your throat was scorched when you drank it. My personal suspission is that along with the switch to HFCS, they reduced the amount of phosphoric acid, and carbonation. It just isn't the same thing any more. Steven Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery http://thegimp.8k.com Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian "There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:22:53 -0400 From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: RES*BSCRIBE NOW: Temporary release of UCE Blacklists Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... A year ago, I overlayed UCE blacklisting process on the HBD server. An unfortunate side-effect of this is that a LARGE number of HBD s*bscribers were blacklisted, some simply because they live in a country known for lax relay security! In any case, in the midst of that mayhem, I had conceived a method to ensure that the HBD s*bscriber were still able to receive and post to the Digest - unfortunately, I conceived of this process after the Great Culling Of The S*bscriber List. I did provide the means to hit me with a Web Form requesting that your address be reinstated, but the message telling the user how to do so gets whacked by the UCE message (and I haven't written a routine to take care of that problem yet), so that method has not been very effective. In an attempt to rectify this, since I now have a most capable and diligent group of Janitors, I will be removing the automated UCE blacklists used by the HBD to prevent SPAM mail from entering the domain for the month of August. If you have been rejected as a subscriber on the HBD (which means you are reading currently via rec.crafts.brewing or through the HTMLized version on the website), this is your opportunity to get back on the direct mailing list, if you so desire. Note that this action may mean that some SPAM or similar detritus will slip through to the Digest this month. Please do not feel you need to respond to such occurrences. When things get through our nets, we are well aware, as indicated by the editing that will take place on the Web version and within the Archives to prevent these scum from gaining long-term exposure. Finally, in the event that the Digest and HBD Domain are overrun with SPAM, I will reverse this decision pretty quickly. Therefor, act fast - your window of opportunity might be a wee bit short. I also continue to experiment with filtering systems in the hope that one will be found that does not interfere with Digest delivery. This would alleviate the requirement for the UCEs, using score-based systems instead (unfortunately, few play well with the DIgest scripts, let alone Sendmail...). - -- See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan Chief of HBD Janitorial Services http://hbd.org pbabcock at hbd.org Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:34:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: homebre973 at mindspring.com Subject: ballentine fermentation temp I have been following the thread on Ballentine's Ale and remember it well from my youth (or yoot as we used to say in the city!) I might have missed it, but what was the fermentation temperature? Thanks, Andy from Hillsborough, NC Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:16:08 -0400 From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremy at bergsman.org> Subject: Coke: heresay and rumors A random collection of facts to add to what has been posted already: 1) I read that when New Coke was introduced (and "old" coke discontinued) that worldwide vanilla consumption dropped dramatically. 2) I have read that some bottlers produce a sucrose version of Coke for Passover (which I guess renders it potentially Kosher). (Now that I live in the northeast I did look in my supermarket one passover, but didn't see any.) Dave Burley wrote: > You must > remember Coke's "attempt" to match Pepsi in sweetness not too long ago. I > suspect this was a marketing ploy to quietly introduce another sugar source > and modify the recipe. 3) The label has said high fructose corn syrup and/or sucrose for a long time, before and after this event. I guess it could be another source of one of the above, but as discussed (and disagreed with) here frequently, these things don't have much additional flavor. 4) When I used to live in San Diego, I could consistently taste the difference between Coke from the San Diego and the Los Angeles bottlers (which was found in some places in San Diego, although I believe there is now only one SoCal bottler). This difference I am confident was real. I also feel that I taste the difference from place to place around the country, but these samplings are too infrequent to be so confident. I believe the water must be the difference here--why would Coke let a bottler assemble the syrup which would mean giving away the recipe? (Of course I prefer the taste from my hometown.) - -- Jeremy Bergsman jeremy at bergsman.org http://bergsman.org Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:01:39 -0400 From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net> Subject: Re: Brewtek CL920 yeast On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:20:57 -0400, in Homebrew Digest #4810 (July 26, 2005), Randy Ricchi wrote: > >Stencil resuscitated some old weizen yeast. > >I'd be interested to hear your comments on how the beer tastes after the >first real tasting on August 1. > I stole a march and did it yesterday, with soft pretzels and mustard, and a well-salted avocado. The clove and tartness were bang-on and dominated the profile to mask any others. Fermentation and bottle conditioning had been at cellar ambient: 68 - 70F. Priming was with corn sugar, 1oz/gal. Heading was excellent, fine-grained and persistent. Overall, beer was sweet and lacked body, but that may relate to the use of the very last of the 2002 grain and hops I had, and mashing right up at 160F - I mashed with the intent of bottling in 28-oz soda bottles and wanted to keep the ABV down.. When this has drunk down a ways I'll do it again, a little starker. Anyhow, the yeast say Hi, they're fine. stencil sends Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 18:48:50 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Response: FOY,05 - Acetate Regulation From: "Fredrik" Subject: Fortnight Of Yeast, 2005 - Follow up - acetate regulation Thank you very much for your responses. Since I have a particular interest with acid production of yeast, mainly acetate, I take to opportunity to submit a follow up question specific on trying to make sure I understand the regulation of acetate production. I've read a few articles on the topic and from what I think I understand, during anaerobic fermentations it's a cytosolic aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALD3) that seems responsible for acetate production, via NAD+ regeneration? For some reson I did not find this in the S.C genom database (http://www.yeastgenome.org/) Is it newly discovered, or why? Response: Believe me the ALD3 gene is there in the SGD database, I have come across it before. If it is not giving you the gene try using ALD only as the query and it should return the list for the whole ALD family. ALD3 will be there. Otherwise try the CYGD at MIPS (Munich information centre for protein sequences). (http://mips.gsf.de/genre/proj/yeast/) Forbes So it seems that acetate production has to do with the NAD+/NADH level in the cytosol as well as perhaps the cytosolic acetaldehyde stress? Since acetaldehyde is supposedly a highly stressful and toxic compound I assume that unless it's promptly converted into ethanol maybe because of too high NAD+/NADH level (due to for example glycerol production?) or because of elevated acetaldehyde pools due to glycolysis overflow, the yeast has no choice but to dispose the acetaldehyde as acetate(??), even at the cost of being counterproducing regarding cytosolic pH, this conversion should also help restore the redox balance i the event that it was skewed due to . The only "sense" I can see in the acetate production atm, is that it is 1) either a way to get rid of the (even more) toxic acetaldehyde, when that starts to pool for some reason, 2) or a way to generate NADH when called for. Then if you ontop of this relate to nutrition and limited growth. Would it be decent enough to say that a reduced growth *might* in some cases lead to increased acetate because a declined demand for acetyl-CoA and thus less consumption of NAD+? So making some acetate make make up for that? Or is the mechanism another one? Response: Of the genes in the ALD family only one is constantly being expressed and this is almost certainly to prevent the build up of acetaldehyde while producing acetate, which is one of the more central building blocks in yeast. The other enzymes are generally repressed by glucose and so are not an issue in this context. The enzyme that is constantly expressed does not use NAD+, but rather NADP+. So it is not entirely clear. Forbes Also, since I've seen reports with correlations on elevated glycerol (HOG response) and elevated acetate as a means to restore the skewed redox balance caused by glycerol production? I've seen the HOG response would induce ALD3, and the cytosolic enzyme making acetate. Can you briefly comment on this? Do you think it is anywhere near the truth or I am missing some other keys? Response: Once you start involving the HOG response you will be in an even worse situation,( can the HOG response over-ride the effect of Glucose repression?). Another thing to remember is that the HOG response will vary from strain to strain and it may even vary depending on the background of each particular propagation. Same yeast strain from different propagations may perform, principally, in the same manner, sugar to alcohol etc but there secondary, behaviours may very quite considerably. Forbes Is there any chance that simple sugars, may induce a moderate HOG response? Now sucrose may be different as I still don't know the rate of inversion on the bulk sugar, but 1P glucose or fructose would initially have the osmotic influence as 2P maltose? Any chance the simple sugar - HOG response - acetate, can be a factor? So far I made most of my sugarbrew tests with sucrose, could sucrose and the surface bound invertase enzymes somehow cause a HOG responses by messsing with local sugar gradients around the cell wall and cell membrane cause an apparent higher osmotic stress somehow?? Response: With the HOG response you may need more of one sugar than that of another. Plus if the yeast was to come from an environment where the HOG response had recently been elicited then it will probably take a bigger sugar concentration to elicit the response than before. I think this unlikely. For the invertase to be present and active (in-between the cell wall and membrane) then there should a HOG response according to the level of sucrose. I do not believe the release of glucose and fructose would add to any HOG response. They will be transported quite rapidly and used by the yeast. The bigger risk with invertase may be that it's activity produces significant glucose levels to initiate the "Crabtree effect" and if this were to occur then the yeast would lose the invertase activity. However, I believe that this is unlikely in healthy yeast. Typical industrial samples of invertase normally have rates of around 40 Units per mg........this means that in one minute 1mg of enzyme will convert 43micromoles of Sucrose into invert sugars(at a given temp and pH) I have read reports of quite a varied level of activity for the enzyme in different yeasts, both Saccharomyces and non-Saccharomyces. Forbes - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.8/61 - Release Date: 8/1/2005 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 19:00:59 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Fortnight Of Yeast-2005-Concludes Fortnight Of Yeast-2005-Concludes As we conclude another FOY, I would like to thank all that participated, especially our yeast experts! If you would care to express any personal thanks to our panel, please send a message to me with the subject "Thanks for the FOY!," and I will forward it. If any of your questions have fallen through the cracks and have not been answered, please forward them directly to me. I would also like to thank Pat Babcock and his continuing efforts to support brewing! Cheers! Rob "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.8/61 - Release Date: 8/1/2005 Return to table of contents
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