HOMEBREW Digest #4907 Thu 08 December 2005

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  re: decoction ("steve.alexander")
  A couple of questions/remarks regarding #4905 & #4906 (Bill Velek)
  sour ale how to (Ken Pendergrass)
  Cake-taking record anal CO2 tracking (Ken Anderson)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 01:53:42 -0500 From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: re: decoction Mark Prior writes a very interesting report on decoction vs RIMS results. Of course others, from ??? at UC Davis to Louis Bonham in a BT article have found there is little or no perceptible flavor advantage to decoction. My personal *belief* is irrelevant, but for disclosure, I think there is a small advantage - but smaller than most advocates imply. If Mark wanted to take his conclusion: "[...] it does produce a perceivable flavor difference in my opinion", from the realm of mere subjective opinion to the form of an objectively measurable result with statistical measurable significance, it's not very hard and doesn't require a gas chromatograph. It's called a triangle test and all that is needed is set of opinionated beer drinking friends and 3 times as many sample cups. Each tester is given three beers, two from one batch and one from the other. The tester is given no indication of which is which; however the experimenter must keep track of this by means of labellings the cups in some non-indicating manner. Also the method of labeling should prevent two testers from comparing their results. It's unlikely you'll be able to prevent all subliminal or even overt communication between beer drinking testers, so someone holding up a cup labeled "3" and announcing it's the good one should not bias the result. It's better to just label the cups from 1...3N and then on a hidden paper make a pseudo-random assignment of beers to cups to that each tester gets two of one and one of the other. Of course roughly as many testers should get two RIMS samples and one Decoct as the other way around. The testers are asked to fill out a questionnaire beginning with: 0/ List the labels of the three samples: __ __ __ 1/ Which of the beers is different from the other two ? Followed by any number of comparative difference questions 2/ Which do you prefer (if any) ? 3/ Can you describe the difference ? 4/ Which is maltier tasting (if any) ? 5/ Which has better aroma (if any) ? ... Question 2/ (preference) is a pretty basic question which should usually be included. 3/ is an open ended question which is not likely to give any statistically useful result, unlike 4/ and 5/ which ask for a comparative difference. In analysing the results you first have to determine how many people were able to correctly identify the "different" beer by looking up their beers they sampled from Q.0 on the hidden sheet and comparing this with their answer to Q.1 . To get statistical significance that the beers are distinguishable at the 1% level (which is really quite good) you need to have 5 or 6 testers who ALL correctly ID the different beer. 6 out of 7 will do as well. 7 of 8 or 7 of 9 correct IDs work, as well as 8 correct of 10 or 11. The sweet part about this blind 3-way selection is that since each taster only has a 33% change of randomly IDing the different beer, you really don't need many testers to obtain a significant result for difference. Chance is against it. The Chi square stats work a little differently on the preference/comparison type questions where only the "correct ID" questionnaires count. [[This deserves a separate discussion.]] fwiw, -S Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 02:42:42 -0600 From: Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net> Subject: A couple of questions/remarks regarding #4905 & #4906 What is an ASBC correction table? If it is just tabulated data, why $600.00? - --- Michael, regarding your "All Things Beer Map", you might want to add a microbrewery in Little Rock, Arkansas, called "Diamond Bear Brewery". I have no connection with it whatsoever, but they make very good beer and they give a nice tour with generous free samples of their brews. Here's a link: http://www.diamondbear.com - --- What is "GAC filtration"? I'm guessing that it might be Ground Activated Carbon or something like that. - --- If one lets the cold break settle out before pitching their yeast, would there be any advantage to racking the beer off of it to first, especially if one plans to reuse the yeast cake on the next batch? Or is the cold break beneficial for the yeast? I seem to recall that it might be used for sterol production or something like that. - --- Dave, regarding Clinitest, am curious whether your comment was meant to mean that any sugar testing method would work, as opposed to specifically just Clinitest. I'd think that any urine testing tapes, and maybe even the blood sampling devices for diabetics might work, wouldn't they. - --- Steve Alexander, thanks for setting me straight on specific gravity and buoyancy; your explanation regarding the fish rising when a boat is launched makes perfect sense to me. That's what I love about this hobby and this group: I'm always learning stuff. As for your comment about monitoring gravity during the fermentation, whatever floats your boat; but please don't think for a moment that I differ much from your notion "that knowledge itself is a good, and more is universally better than less." I fully agree with that ... but would certainly limit it to things that matter (like the heart patient, or being able to take some sort of corrective action to fix your beer). If you can find a way to _USE_ the data you collect, then that's great; otherwise, more knowledge - -- like knowing how many steps an ant takes in mile -- is worthless. Cheers. http://tinyurl.com/7zpob is my 'Brewing Glossary' with photos and links! http://tinyurl.com/99s2l compares HomeBrewers Team stats w/ other teams. http://tinyurl.com/axuol moderated group (now 304 member) EXCLUSIVELY re equipment for craftbrewers and small breweries. Please visit. Bill Velek Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:38:42 -0500 From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at comcast.net> Subject: sour ale how to I'm interested in brewing sour ales both the Belgian and antique versions of other styles which were sour because all beer at the time was fermented in wood. If you brew in this style how do you do it? I confess I'm just starting the process of rereading all the materials I have on the subject. That having been said it seems to me the best way to do it would be to make a "stock", if I'm not using the wrong term, ale aged till it's quite sour which is used to blend with "fresh" ale do you agree? What about wood? I'm thinking of just wedging in a small board. Open or closed fermenter? Thank you, Ken in Ypsilanti Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:28:41 -0500 From: Ken Anderson <kapna at adelphia.net> Subject: Cake-taking record anal CO2 tracking I might have to take the prize here. I use an inexpensive (eBay) mass flow meter, and I love the thing. It gives me a constant snapshot of the fermentation's progress. The SG gets calculated from the the CO2 gas produced, which is tied to the sugar depletion. Some experienced brewers like to discredit the usefulness of airlock activity. That may be true if you're just counting bubbles, but if the gas output is being carefully monitored, it's VERY useful. Here's one of the resulting graphs, as an example: http://users.adelphia.net/~aken75/ Ken Anderson Return to table of contents
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