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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  c02 full? ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  RE:  1056/1728 Comparison, CO2 tank ("Kyle Jones")
  C02 (leavitdg)
  CO2 ("A.J deLange")
  Re: Keg conditioning (Scott Alfter)
  how do I know if my 10 lb. CO2 tank is full? (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: Water Analysis ("Martin Brungard")


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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
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Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:35:43 -0500
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <hbd at spencerwthomas.com>
Subject: c02 full?

Larry,

The gauge will read the same until the tank is almost empty.  The
reading depends only upon the temperature, as it is the vapor pressure
of the liquid CO2 in the tank at that temperature.

What you need to do is to weigh it.  Stamped on the tank somewhere is a
"tare weight" that indicates how much the tank weighs empty.  For
example, my 5 lb tank has a tare weight of 11.2 lbs.  Thus, the tank,
when full, should weight 16.2 lbs, because 11.2 + 5 = 16.2.  Find your
tare weight, weigh the tank, subtract the tare weight, and you'll know
how much CO2 is left in the tank.

If you don't have an appropriate scale, or you can't find the tare
weight, go get it refilled.  I use a local "fire safety" outfit -- they
refill my tank on the spot, instead of exchanging it.  They're cheaper
than the welding gas places, too.  They can probably tell you how much
CO2 is in the tank, and whether you need to refill it.  Check your
"yellow pages."

=Spencer in Ann Arbor




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Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:11:57 -0500
From: "Kyle Jones" <kjones1 at ufl.edu>
Subject: RE:  1056/1728 Comparison, CO2 tank


That is some cool data, Ken.  And re other discussions that have
taken place lately on the HBD, this data may not be of any particular
use to me, but it sure is neat to see.  Thanks for the continued updates
from your CO2 monitoring system, and I hope there are more to come.

And to Larry Maxwell, your best bet is to weigh your tank, just as you 
would a propane tank (the tare weight of your tank should be stamped on
the neck).  The high side pressure reading doesn't really give you any
info
on the amount left in the tank, and will remain constant as long as
there
is any liquid CO2 in the tank. 

Kyle



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Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 05:46:40 -0500
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: C02

Ken;
  Why does the 1728 appear to have 2 lines rather than one?

Darrell



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Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 13:31:36 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: CO2

The best way to determine the amount of  CO2 in your cylinder is to 
weigh it. This requires, of course, that you know its empty (tare) 
weight so next time you go to get it filled empty it completely, but 
close the valve as soon as gas stops coming out so air (it's really 
moisture we're concerned about) won't get in and weigh it. Then weigh it 
again when you get home from the filling plant. You probably won't like 
what you see (your "5 pound" fill will probably be more like 4.5 
pounds). This scheme does not work so well at places that swap your 
empty aluminum bottle for a full steel one  but if you swap aluminum for 
aluminum it should give you a reasonably accurate indication (and as 
it's the larger outfits that tend to do this you will probably be 
getting a better fill).

Another method (which works best in the summer) is to put the bottle in 
the freezer and leave it there until is is thoroughly chilled. Take it 
out and set it upright in a humid place (batroom where the shower has 
been running  may work in winter). The metal of the bottle will warm 
faster than the CO2 liquid so that after a few minutes the upper portion 
of the bottle should be dry while the lower part should be covered with 
condensation up to the point where the surface of the liquid is located.

The gauge is not terribly informative. As long as liquid is in the 
bottle the gauge reads the constant vapor pressure of CO2 which is 
indeed around 750 psig but which does vary appreciably with temperature. 
When all the liquid has evaporated the gauge reads the pressure of the 
remaining gas in the bottle and will, consequently, drop as gas is drawn 
off. When you see the needle start to decline it is time to think about 
getting another bottle though at that point you should have enough to 
finish a keg (15.5 gal).

An exception to this is if the bottle is outside in the summer and the 
temperature is above 87.8 F. CO2 cannot exist as a liquid above this 
temperature so the bottle will be full of gas. A full bottle will read 
about 1000 psig and the displayed pressure indicates the amount of gas 
remaining e.g. when the gauge reads 450 psig about 45% of the CO2 
remains. So this suggests another method - lower the bottle into hot 
water i.e. around 100F (do not put it into the oven or heat it in a fire 
or by any other method - that is a)unsafe and b)will give you the wrong 
answer). Keep the water above 87.8  and when everything has equilibrated 
read the pressure gauge and temperature.  If the bottle were full and 
the water boiling the pressure gauge would read 1300 psig. For the 
scientifically minded this is the critical pressure of CO2 (1070 psi) 
adjusted by the ratio of the critial temperature to temperature of 
boiling water (373/304 - both in Kelvins). Even though 1300 psig is well 
within the ratings of the bottles I just don't feel comfortable 
receommending that boiling water be used though it would make it easier 
to insure that things are at equilibrium. Continuing with the example at 
boiling temperature if the bottle is half full it will read 650 psig and 
so on. For other temperatures the full tank pressure would be 1070* (273 
+ Centigrade Temperature)/(273 + 31) and should be applied to the 
outdoor situation as well if it is appreciably warmer than 87.8F.

A.J.


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Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:41:04 -0800
From: Scott Alfter <scott at alfter.us>
Subject: Re: Keg conditioning

"D. Clark" wrote:
> Does anyone out there do keg conditioning on a regular basis?  This was 
> accidental for me, but I don't see why you couldn't add corn sugar or DME 
> to a keg of finished beer and let it go.  Would the time be the same for a 
> keg as it would be for a bottle?  More things to try I guess.

I've done that a few times in the past with both 5-gallon corny kegs and
5-liter party kegs.  You want to cut back on the priming sugar a bit (one
number I've heard says to use 1/3 cup of corn sugar instead of 3/4 cup).  If
you're using a corny keg, you'll need to put in some gas to get the lid to
seal.  (Party kegs don't have this problem; just push in the stopper.)  Let it
sit at room temperature for the usual couple or three weeks, then chill and
serve.

I figured I'd start doing force-carbonating when I got into kegging.  I
suspect, though, that keg conditioning more thoroughly scrubs residual oxygen
out of the keg than repeatedly pressurizing and venting the keg, but I have
nothing to back up that assertion.  At the very least, it'd save gas.  (Not
that I've been using it all that quickly; I've used the same 10-lb. cylinder
for at least a year and a half.)

   _/_  Scott Alfter
  / v \ Visit the SNAFU website today!
(IIGS( http://snafu.alfter.us/      Top-posting!
  \_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden            >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?




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Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:42:38 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: how do I know if my 10 lb. CO2 tank is full?

Larry,
When a CO2 tank is full, the reading on the guage is near, or a little 
below 800 psi, and it stays at this reading until you're almost out of gas. 
When the pressure as shown on the guage does start to drop it still takes 
awhile to completely run out. I think you'll have plenty for New Years 
eve.  If not, you can always think you should have :^)

Whenever your tank does run out, weigh it before refilling, and mark the 
weight of the empty tank on the tank itself so you don't forget. Then, you 
can just weigh the tank to see how empty or full it is. A full 10 lb tank 
will weigh 10 lbs more than an empty one.


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Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:01:57 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Water Analysis

The water analysis that Mike Long provided was not as complete as you would 
like, but there was enough to point out an indication of what the water will 
likely perform like.

>From the analysis, the calcium and magnesium concentrations were 
back-calculated as 29.5 and 5.5 ppm, respectively.  The alkalinity was shown 
as 'M Alkalinity' which is the preferred pH endpoint for brewing usage.  The 
reported water pH (7.2) indicates that the alkalinity is predominately 
composed of bicarbonate.  For the 50 ppm alkalinity, the bicarbonate content 
is 61 ppm.

For the given sulfate and chloride contents of 44 and 8 ppm, respectively, 
the overall ionic balance of the water suggests that there should be about 6 
to 7 ppm of another cation to go along with the calculated Ca and Mg 
content.  I would expect that the missing cation is probably sodium.  So 
figure that there is 6 ppm Na.

The short listing of the ionic concentrations is:

Ca = 29.5 ppm
Mg = 5.5 ppm
Na = 6 ppm
HCO3 = 61 ppm
SO4 = 44 ppm
Cl = 8 ppm

The residual alkalinity of the water comes out at about 26.  This suggests 
the water is well suited for pale beers.  But, Mike should be careful when 
hardening the water with additional Ca or Mg or when mashing a grist darker 
than about amber.  The relatively low alkalinity could make it necessary to 
add chalk or sodium bicarb to keep the mash pH from dropping too low.  This 
caution applies only to the mash.  The sparge should not be made more 
alkaline.

Based on the residual alkalinity, Mike probably will not ever have to 
acidify his mash water.  Sparge water should always be brought down to a pH 
of 5.7.  For Mike's water, it would take about 1/4 tsp of 88% Lactic acid in 
5 gallons of sparge water to bring the pH to about 5.7.

Overall, it looks like pretty good water.  Mike should be good to go.  I 
recommend that an additional inquiry be made to find out if the missing 
cation is sodium, although it doesn't really matter that much.


Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL




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