HOMEBREW Digest #4929 Wed 11 January 2006

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  Questions for a stuck fermentation on a Barley Wine ("Steve Seeley")
  cereal mash/retrogradation ("steve.alexander")
  RE: CAP (Bill Tobler)
  Re: Dry yeast - one more chance ("Mike Racette")
  Louisiana Beer... (CP)" <BrianSmith1@templeinland.com>
  Re: Long term yeast storage / Dry Yeast One More Chance (le Man)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:23:28 -0800 From: "Steve Seeley" <seseeley at hotpop.com> Subject: Questions for a stuck fermentation on a Barley Wine Hi all, I have a stuck fermentation on a Barley Wine. The OG was 1.125 SG. After 4 days the 1084 Iris ale yeast quit fermenting. I racked after the 7th day (3 days of nothing) and the SG was 1.082 with the AA only at 33%. I also got a second beer off the same mash which went from an OG of 1.055 SG to 1.014 SG in 4 days for a AA of 75%. The sparg for these beers was a continuous fly sparg collecting the first 7gals for the Barley Wine and a 2nd 7 gallons as a session beer. I don't think the wort was too high in unfermentables because the 2nd beer had good AA. Is the ratio of unfermentables to fermentable basically the same through out a fly sparg if a mash out of 168 degF held for 40 min.? I think the starter was OK? The starter was made with about 4 oz of yeast paste (from a prior batch) pitched into 1 gallon of 1.025 SG wort and fermented out. After decanting off the spent starter wort 3/4 of the slurry was pitched into the Barley Wine and the remaining 1/4 pitched into the 2nd beer. I'm thinking that the Barley Wine wort may not have had enough O2? Therefore maybe pitching some dry lager yeast (which have built in O2 reserves) will get things fermenting again? I'm thinking that re-oxygenating would cause staling? Thanks for any help, Steve Seeley (from Shingle Springs CA - halfway between Sacramento and Tahoe on 50 highway) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 03:16:33 -0500 From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: cereal mash/retrogradation Darrell in Plattsburgh asks, >When doing a CAP: I recall that in gelatinizing the corn it >was suggested that one add some malt as well. Why is this? Malt isn't used to achieve Gelatinization, but to avoid it's evil doppelganger, Retrogradation. Gelatinization of starch involves unravellings and hydrating the huge and highly branched amylopectin molecules. Grain starch granules, for instance, often contain a single amylopectin molecule with thousands or even tens of thousands of glucose units. Anyone who has ever made gravy or used starch as a thickener for soups of pies realizes the gelatinized starch traps a large amount of water and thus forms a gel. If the amount of water is small then gel is thick and is insoluble when more water is added. It sets like glue (and has been used as glue for centuries). Even in somewhat thinner gels, given time, starch molecules form closed 'pockets' which are not soluble. If you've seen grist 'ball' or starch get lumpy, then you've seen a macroscopic version of the same problem. Bread staling is actually retrogradation too. Less water, higher pH and lower temps all encourage retrogradation. If starch retrogrades, then there is little hope of ever mashing it into fermentables. Most folks don't appreciate that you need something like 20 times the mass as water to fully hydrate intact grain amylopectin and avoid any retrogradation. That's around 6qt per pound (~12L/kg) for typical grains .... and that's a ridiculous and impractical amount. The basic problem is that a *lot* of water is trapped around the highly branched amylopectins. One way to reduce the water requirement is to cut the amylopectins into small bits which can't trap as much water. Alpha-amylase does this nicely. The goal for a CAP is to bring the raw corn above it's gelat temp (typically 70-75C) along with a small amount of pale malt [malt has far more alpha-amylase than needed for self conversion] and then give it a decent rest at that temp. The simple sugars also help reduce the water trapping issue. Snipping up the mega-dalton grain amylopectins with alpha-amylase to prevent retrogradation with a modest amount of water is the point of the malt in a cereal mash. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:06:40 -0600 From: Bill Tobler <brewbetter at houston.rr.com> Subject: RE: CAP Darrell said; "When doing a CAP: I recall that in gelatinizing the corn it was suggested that one add some malt as well. Why is this?" Hi Darrell, good question. I could tell you in my words, but Mark Sedam tells it much better. In a nutshell, adding about 30% malt to the corn and mashing for about 20 minutes before boiling will release some enzymes which will break down some of the starch molecules and prevent the mash from becoming very thick and difficult to work with. I attached a link to Marks post on Starch Gelatinization. Below is also a link to one of Jeff's posts on making a CAP. Cheers! This is Marc's original post. http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3982.html#3982-2 Jeff on CAP's, http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3737.html#3737-4 http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3737.html#3737-5 Bill Tobler Lake Jackson, TX (1129.2, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian Brewing Great Beer in South Texas Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:04:19 -0700 From: "Mike Racette" <mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com> Subject: Re: Dry yeast - one more chance In HBD #4928, Greg Brewer said: "Their suggested rehydration temperature for ale yeast is 27C (85F), cooler than I have usually seen suggested." 27C is actually 80.6F and yes, this temperature surprised me as well since most dry yeast manufacturers suggest just over 100F. The Fermentis website suggests 27C +- 3C for ale yeast and also recommends to "Mix gently to form a cream and allow to stand for 15-30 minutes. Then mix vigorously and stand for a further 30 minutes prior to pitching into the wort" Most dry yeasts I've seen say to rehydrate no more than 15 minutes before pitching. My lhbs recently started carrying US-56 so I picked some up and have thus been following this thread closely. Thanks for the info. Guess I'll try following their instructions and see how it goes even though they are quite a bit different than most dry yeasts I've tried. Miker Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:00:22 -0600 From: "Smith, Brian (CP)" <BrianSmith1 at templeinland.com> Subject: Louisiana Beer... Mark, The Abita Brewery and Brewpub are up. The wait at the brewpub has increased greatly. Cresent City Brewhouse is in the French Quarter so I would think it's ok. There is allegidly a new Brewpub in Covington but I haven't found it yet. I haven't had a report on the status of the Brew-Ha-Ha homebrew shop on Magazine street yet. Brian Smith Bogalusa LA ********** Confidentiality Notice ********** This electronic transmission and any attached documents or other writings are confidential and are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) identified above. This message may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure under applicable law. If the receiver of this information is not the intended recipient, or the employee, or agent responsible for delivering the information to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, reading, dissemination, distribution, copying or storage of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender by return email and delete the electronic transmission, including all attachments from your system. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:09:55 +0000 From: le Man <hbd at thebarnsleys.co.uk> Subject: Re: Long term yeast storage / Dry Yeast One More Chance > From: "Bill Kunka" > Subject: Long term yeast storage > My question is, what is better storing the yeast in a sterile water and > gylcerol (35%)mixture and freezing or a slant that is lightly coated in > sterile mineral oil to keep moist and store in a fridge? I am looking for > 1-2 year plus storage. > > Any other ideas out there? Hi Bill, My data point FWIW. I go for storing in distilled water in the fridge at 4C. Just recovered some yeast that were in the fridge since March 02. I Take a flamed inoculation loop and dip it in the fermenting wort then put that in 4ml of sterile distilled water. To revive Shake the vial, and streak out onto a wort agar plate, incubate for a week then select a colony and transfer to 2ml of wort . . . Step up as usual. Incidentally I also recovered yeast from a slant of the same age (Brewlabs Pilsner), but another slant of the same age (Brewlabs High Gravity) failed to revive. I had no luck reviving any of my Glycerol and water Frozen samples of the same vintage. IIRC Dr Clayton Cone recommends Mineral oil storage for very long term storage. > From: Greg Brewer > Subject: Re: Dry yeast - one more chance > > Their suggested rehydration temperature for ale yeast > is 27C (85F), cooler than I have usually seen suggested. Of course what you have to remember is that each manufacturer recommends the approach (temp / Time / Wort / Water ) to produce the optimum results for their particular yeast strain so there will be variations. IIRC Nottingham is 30C, and DR Clayton Cone has reported that there is considerable fall off in viability the further away from this temperature you go. (Fortnight of yeast about two years ago) - -- le Man ( The Brewer Formerly Known As Aleman ) Mashing In Blackpool, Lancashire, UK - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 10/01/2006 Return to table of contents
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