---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

                     Your Business Name Here
    Visit http://hbd.org "Sponsor the HBD"  to find out how!
			 
    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Bad Hops? ("Peter A. Ensminger")
  RE: bad hops ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: bad hops ("Robert M. Opalko")
  Amber/Orange color (leavitdg)
  CO2 and xcel (Joe Katchever)
  RE:  ppt - gout ("Ronald La Borde")
  Gout Thanks! ("Amos Brooks")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
*            http://www.hbd.org/store.html              *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*  Suppport this service: http://hbd.org/donate.shtml   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
                  and Spencer Thomas



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:05:57 -0400
From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Bad Hops?

In http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/5213.html#5213-1 , Matt writes that he 
cannot replicate the hoppy flavor/aroma of commercial beers and says 
this may be due to "bad hops" from his homebrew store.

Hmmmm ...

I have also had problems replicating the hoppy flavor/aroma of certain 
commercial beers. For example, how can I get the hoppy aroma of a 
Victory IPA or a Saranac IPA. Personally, I find these two beers a bit 
too perfumy (is that a word?). But ... I'd like to know how to add some 
of that perfumy character to my own beers, while avoiding the grassiness 
(is that a word?) of late hop additions.

Or do Victory, Saranac, and other commercial brewers use a hop 
oil/essence/extract, as available from HopTech, http://www.hoptech.com/ ?

Cheers!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
Apparent Rennerian: [394, 79.9]


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:10:37 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: bad hops

Matt,

In my experience I haven't had a problem with hops.  I would doubt
that's the problem given the care they are receiving.  You didn't really
describe the flavor/aroma or your processes.   Provide more details and
perhaps some of us on HBD can give you a hand.

David Houseman



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:59:36 -0500
From: "Robert M. Opalko" <opalko at oxfordms.net>
Subject: Re: bad hops

Is this a beer you brew regularly so that you know what it "should" 
taste like?  I've seen everything from stale malt to expired yeast in 
homebrew stores so I'm sure it's not impossible to get some funky hops.  
Were the hops sold to you from a large, already opened bag?  I tend to 
shy away from these, regadless of how fresh the store owner tells me 
they are.  I don't use Saaz enough to know if it's a hop that you can 
get flakey results out of. 

Cheers!


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 10:29:00 -0400
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Amber/Orange color

I am brewing a "Rogue Amber" today, and have happened upon a wonderfully
orange-amber color with the following malt:

4 lb Vienna
1 lp pale
5 lb pils
1.5 Caramel Vienne
 .5 Victory

this is the 4th use of a Rogue ale yeast.

Happy Brewing!
Darrell



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 11:17:09 -0500
From: Joe Katchever <joe at pearlstreetbrewery.com>
Subject: CO2 and xcel

I've cut n pasted an excerpt from meheen regarding Co2 carbonating with 
a carbonating stone in a tank. I was wondering if there was any Excel 
proficient forumers out there that would like to write a simple 
spreadsheet, after reading this article and using the data contained 
therein.The goal would be to have fields to enter beer temperature, beer 
head pressure, wetting pressure, desired volume of co2, etc.

QUOTE:
To understand the dynamics of CO2 dissolved in beer, we must first 
understand the solubility of CO2 in beer and the terms and measurements 
used to describe it. CO2 is very soluble in beer, and its solubility 
increases with pressure and decreases with temperature. The amount of 
CO2 dissolved in beer is most often referred to in terms of volumes. 
Volumes of CO2 are defined as the volume the CO2 gas would occupy if it 
were removed from the beer at atmospheric pressure and 0o C, compared to 
the original volume of beer. Thus if a quart of beer were carbonated to 
2.5 volumes and all the CO2 were removed from the beer, it would occupy 
2.5 quarts. Most packaged beers are considered normally carbonated with 
2.45 to 2.85 volumes of dissolved CO2. Generally speaking during the 
bottling and keging process 0.1-0.15 volumes will be lost and should be 
added in the tank above the desired packaged content.
Determining the volumes of CO2 in beer is easily obtained by using the 
temperature and pressure conditions of the beer at equilibrium 
conditions and reading the volumes directly from a chart. Equilibrium 
means the same amount of CO2 is diffusing out of the beer as is being 
dissolved back into solution. It is critical that the readings used for 
determining CO2 volumes are taken under equilibrium conditions and the 
instruments used are accurate. The impact of false readings on 
determining the volumes of CO2 can easily be demonstrated by referring 
to the chart on the next page. For example the largest errors often come 
from pressure readings taken from gauges which are often plus or minus 
as much as 1-7 psi. If we have a container of beer at 35oF and our 
faulty gauge reading is 10 psi, we see from the chart our beer is 2.52 
volumes, but the actual pressure is 15 psi, so in reality we have 3.02 
volumes. Not only is the beer beyond normal gas levels, but excessively 
high pressures can be dangerous due to container over pressurization.
Other factors can often give false volume readings from the chart even 
if you have good instruments. One example of this might be a gas leak 
from a manway or pressure relief valve and you are using your tank 
readings in determining volumes. Your volumes determination will be 
incorrect because the tank does not represent equilibrium conditions. To 
be certain tank carbonation is correct a sample should be properly taken 
from the tank and tested. The tester will be a device which seals to the 
sample container and is equipped with a thermometer and pressure gauge 
for reading the equilibrium conditions in the sample container. The 
tester must be shaken vigorously several times before the readings are 
taken. This is to ensure that as much CO2 is coming out of solution as 
is being dissolved back into solution and equilibrium conditions are 
obtained. If you do not have a tester and tank conditions are used in 
determining CO2 levels, always be certain your tank is under equilibrium 
conditions and you have accurate instruments.
Tank carbonation is most often accomplished by kraeusen or CO2 
introduction into the tank through a carbonating stone. For the purpose 
of this discussion we will only be concerned with carbonation using a 
stone. At the end of normal fermentation, beer contains about 1 volume 
of CO2. The carbonating stone will be used to introduce the remaining 
CO2 into the beer and bring it to the carbonation proper level.
Carbonating stones are made of ceramic or sintered stainless steel with 
very small openings which produce very small bubbles when CO2 is forced 
through them. Very small bubbles have a large surface area of exposure 
to the beer and are easily dissolved in to the beer. Stones are placed 
in the bottom of the tank and off center to produce a rolling action of 
the beer. Since carbonating stones have minute pores, the capillary 
resistance of the stone must be overcome before any bubbles are produced 
in the beer. This capillary resistance is often referred to as wetting 
pressure, which can be between 1-8 psi. Additionally the liquid head 
pressure above the stone also affects the total internal pressure 
required for the stone to produce bubbles. Every 28" of liquid height is 
the equivalent of approximately 1psi, consequently the higher the liquid 
above the stone, the higher the internal pressure to overcome the 
wetting pressure of the stone.
Beer carbonated in the tank using a stone can be carbonated from a few 
hours to several days. Generally the best results are achieved using a 
relatively slow carbonation. It is also highly desirable at the 
beginning of the carbonating process to use a relatively low 
differential pressure between the stone and the head space in the tank 
while bleeding gas from the top of the tank. This will scrub unwanted 
dissolved air out of the beer which was picked up during transfer or the 
brewing process.
The following is an example of carbonating beer at 34oF, using a 
carbonating stone with a wetting pressure of 5 psi. First determine the 
desired volumes of CO2 you want in the finished product, such as 2.58 
volumes. From the CO2 chart we read 32oF on the left side and follow it 
to the right until we read 2.58, then move to the top of the chart and 
the corresponding pressure is
10 psi. The next step is to determine the head pressure of the beer 
above the stone. In this example the beer is 84" above the stone, divide 
this by 28"/psi and we obtain 3 psi head pressure. It is important to 
mention at this point that 28"/psi is an approximation for water and you 
may wish a more accurate figure, especially for higher gravity beers. To 
obtain a more accurate pressure multiply the total inches of liquid 
above the stone by the specific gravity of the finished beer then divide 
by 27.684"/psi. Generally speaking this sort of accuracy is not 
warranted for most conditions.
To obtain the total pressure needed for the carbonating stone to begin 
producing bubbles, add the wetting pressure of the stone (5 psi) to the 
liquid head pressure above the stone (3 psi) = 8 psi. This means that 
with 8 psi pressure applied to the carbonating stone and the head 
pressure of the tank at atmospheric pressure the stone will begin 
releasing bubbles into the beer. Since we want to carbonate slowly, the 
differential pressure should be kept low. 9 psi at the stone would give 
a differential of 1 psi above the bubble break over pressure with 
atmospheric pressure in the head space of the tank. As the pressure in 
the head space in the tank increases it is necessary to increase the 
pressure to the carbonating stone. Since the target carbonation level in 
this example is 2.58 volumes at 34oF the head pressure gauge on the tank 
should be 10 psi when the beer is carbonated and the pressure on the 
stone will the wetting pressure, plus liquid head pressure, plus the 
final equilibrium pressure (5+3+10=18).
   

- -- 
Joe Katchever
Pearl Street Brewery
La Crosse, Wisconsin



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:35:49 -0500
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE:  ppt - gout

Horrors, all this time I been eating sardine guts, chicken breasts, salmon,
pork, for the health benefits. Just goes to show  - eat anything you want
but in MODERATION.

OK dear, heat up that pizza oven!  Bust out that Pepperoni!

Ron
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the New Atlantis




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:27:55 -0400
From: "Amos Brooks" <amosbrooks at gmail.com>
Subject: Gout Thanks!

Hi,
     I'd like to thank everyone that posted publically & privately for
the advise on gout. I really apreciate all your efforts. I can tell
many of you spent a lot of time looking up information on the subject.
I know I have learned much from this and I hope it helps anyone
looking into the archives in the future as there is a lot of good
information here. You folks are great!

Thanks,
Amos


Return to table of contents

---