HOMEBREW Digest #5666 Fri 26 February 2010

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  Vienna water profile provenance (Calvin Perilloux)
  Re: Vienna water ("Kai Troester")
  Dropping Carbonates ("A. J. deLange")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:11:27 -0800 (PST) From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com> Subject: Vienna water profile provenance AJ, You stated that you have in hand several water profile descriptions for Vienna but no provenance on any of them. There is data officially available from the Vienna government site, so now you have a proper data source: http://www.wien.gv.at/wienwasser/index.html Much of Vienna city center and the eastern part of the city (Donaustadt, Florisdorf, Leopoldsstadt, Brigittenau) have the hardest water, almost surely pulling much of their usage from Lobau and Moosbrunn (see below). Based on the hardness values per 'Bezirk', the rest of Vienna gets water from the alpine sources between Vienna and the mountains in Steiermark (via aqueducts 1 and 2). My guess is that historical Vienna brewery water probably is similar to the Lobau and Moosbrunn sources, since the style predates the modern aqueducts, but as you so appropriately pointed out, it is highly likely that the brewing water underwent (substantial) treatment. In any case, data: HQL1 - I. Wiener Hochquellenleitung (from Steiermark) HQL2 - II. Wiener Hochquellenleitung (from Steiermark and other areas) LOB - Wasserwerk Lobau (east side of city) MOOS - Wasserwerk Moosbrunn (south of city) HQL1 supplies about 40% of total city consumption. Parameter (down)- Source (right) HQL1 HQL2 LOB MOOS pH-Wert 7,62 7,66 7,52 7,40 Gesamtha:rte (Grad deutsche Ha:rte) 8,6 6,8 13,7 18,7 Karbonatha:rte (Grad d'sche Ha:rte) 7,6 6,4 12,9 12,8 Nitrat (Milligramm NO3 pro Liter) 4,4 2,7 3,8 15 Chlorid (Milligramm pro Liter) 1,6 <1,0 13 17 Sulfat (Milligramm pro Liter) 13 2,4 30 84 *1,5 Millimol Calciumcarbonat je Liter entsprechen 8,4 dH (Grad deutscher Ha:rte) I include nitrate simply as a demonstration showing how the EPA here goes well above and beyond the cause of safety with their overzealous standards; you would note that the Moosbrunn supply, coming from what appears to be a flat, agricultural area, is (unsurprisingly) well over the EPA limit for nitrates. This would entail potentially very costly remediation methods in the USA (e.g. restricting usage from Moosbrunn to what can be mixed/diluted from other sources) but is well within the European safety limits of 50 mg/L. I shall refrain from further political comment on other related off-topics, for now anyway. Calvin Perilloux Middletown, Maryland, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:16:18 -0500 From: "Kai Troester" <kai at braukaiser.com> Subject: Re: Vienna water Interesting discussion about the Vienna water. I have wondered about this myself since the classic Vienna water profile doesn't seem to be well suited for what is a Vienna style beer A.J. made this statement: > I think that leads us to the conclusion that Vienna water is very hard > with a good amount of that hardness being permanent and low chloride. > To synthesize that water we could take the approach of building a hard, > gypseous water in full knowledge that at soon as that water hits the > HLT the carbonate which we will have to take considerable trouble to > put in will fall right out and so skip that step. I disagree that you can make the argument that the alkalinity precipitate in the HLT since the strike temp is too low for this to happen. I.e. brewing with classic Vienna water means that you have very high alkalinity which can be represented as either suspended or dissolved chalk. I do however agree that a good Vienna beer is most likely brewed by using Vienna water that has been softened. If there is high temporary hardness in the water a brewery is likely to precipitate it using slacked lime. When it comes to today's Vienna water it seems that that water is fairly different from the classic Vienna water. In 1873 a water pipeline from the alps (Hochquellleitung I or HQL-I) was opened which started to supply Vienna with water that is considerably softer than its ground water [1]. In 1910 a second such pipe (HQL-II) was opened and today about 80% of Vienna water come from the Alps [2][3]. Here is water analysis data I found on the web[4]: sources HQL-I HQL-II Lobau (local) Moosbrunn (local) pH 7.62 7.66 7.52 7.40 GH (dH) 8.6 6.9 13.7 18.7 KH (dH) 7.6 6.4 13 13 Cl (mg/l) 1.6 1 13 17 SO4 (mg/l) 13 2.4 30 84 to get from dH to ppm CaCO3 multiply the dH value with 17.8 It seems that the classic Vienna profile is a mix of the local Vienna water sources. Modern Vienna water however is mostly a mix of the HQL-I and -II sources and has an estimated residual alkalinity of about 5 dH or 90 ppm as CaCO3 which is decent water for brewing Vienna beer. I found that my current batch of Vienna malt has a distilled water pH of about 5.5 - 5.6. This means that a 90 ppm CaCO3 RA water and a mash thickness of 4 l/kg should give a mash pH of about 5.6-5.7 which is acceptable. This shows how little some of the classic water profiles reflect the current situation in those cities. Munich water on the other hand, didn't change much the classic profile is still very much in line with the current water analysis [5]. Kai [1] - http://www.wien.gv.at/wienwasser/versorgung/1hochquell.html [2] - http://www.wien.gv.at/wienwasser/versorgung/2hochquell.html [3] - http://www.wien.gv.at/wienwasser/statistik.html [4] - http://www.wien.gv.at/wienwasser/qualitaet/ergebnis.html [5] - http://www.swm.de/dokumente/swm/pdf/wasser/trinkwasserwerte.pdf Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:24:08 -0500 From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: Dropping Carbonates I put the comment about dropping carbonates in the HLT in my first post on Vienna water because that's what happens whenever I synthesize hard, carbonaceous water which is why I seldom do that and why I put softening calculation capability into my spreadsheet. When one synthesizes carbonaceous water the best, and really the only, way to do it is in emulation of nature which is by using carbonic acid to dissolve chalk. Amounts of chalk for a given level of alkalinity and pH are calculated on the basis of thermodynamic equilibrium conditions but ignore the kinematics which is a fancy way of saying that if you suspend chalk in water and bubble CO3 through it the reaction takes a long time to complete. The water becomes clearer and clearer the longer you wait but at brew time it may well not be crystal clear. This means that there are still tiny particles of CaCO3 is suspension and these, of course, make excellent nucleation sites so that when the synthesized water is heated, even though not to boiling, CO2 is driven out, HCO3- converts to CO3-- and chalk drops out. I see it on the bottom of the vessel. I agree that this might not happen with a water that really is at thermodynamic equilibrium. And I should note that my HLT isn't heated only to strike temperature but to sparge temperature and eventually to near boiling (for makeup). Maybe all the precip is happening in these later phases. Add to this the supposition that the water used to brew Vienna was probably softened (or that even if it wasn't that you would probably want to) and it just doesn't seem to make sense to add the extra steps required to get the high HCO3- levels into the water you are going to brew with. So that's why I wanted to put softening capabilty into NUBWS (Nearly Universal Brewing Water Spreadsheeet). Return to table of contents
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